Greed, greeed, greed

Destruent

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

The issue is that everybody wants an optimized build. Who wants to blow expensive gold tempers on VR15 gear?

Also, as it already was mentioned, you can sneak past the mobs at the entrance and farn 1st boss for embers. Or farm downscaled dungeon for them. Some people did that before the first nerf.

Lol, ive never thought about downscaling the dungeon to farm those trophys...so there is exactly NO reason left to nerf these two dungeons.

Shunravi

Destruent wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

The issue is that everybody wants an optimized build. Who wants to blow expensive gold tempers on VR15 gear?

Also, as it already was mentioned, you can sneak past the mobs at the entrance and farn 1st boss for embers. Or farm downscaled dungeon for them. Some people did that before the first nerf.

Lol, ive never thought about downscaling the dungeon to farm those trophys...so there is exactly NO reason left to nerf these two dungeons.

Oh yea... Downscaling already exists...

Completely forgot about that. Make that an option choice in group.

LadyNalcarya

Shunravi wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Speaking of the rewards, sets drop in normal version, in vr15 though, but the difference only matters for optimized build.
Monster helmets are sold at pvp merchant.
So whats the issue?

The issue is that everybody wants an optimized build. Who wants to blow expensive gold tempers on VR15 gear?

Also, as it already was mentioned, you can sneak past the mobs at the entrance and farn 1st boss for embers. Or farm downscaled dungeon for them. Some people did that before the first nerf.

Lol, ive never thought about downscaling the dungeon to farm those trophys...so there is exactly NO reason left to nerf these two dungeons.

Oh yea... Downscaling already exists...

Completely forgot about that. Make that an option choice in group.

Btw its a nice idea, something akin to difficulty slider. If a group leader would be able to change scaling level.

Cathexis

I agree with the OP!! If anything, the game should be MORE inaccessible!! I think we should only make content for the devs so everyone can be equally mad that they can't complete the content.



Seriously, I have no problem with hard content. It's when it's burried behind a wall of "you need this race, that class, these potions, that gear (that takes forever to grind), earn this much gold," the bottom line is... It's more grind than fun.

If grinds are what you are into, go for it. Just don't put rewards at the end that critically affect balance in other areas of the game like PvP.

Magdalina

Cathexis wrote: »

Seriously, I have no problem with hard content. It's when it's burried behind a wall of "you need this race, that class, these potions, that gear (that takes forever to grind), earn this much gold," the bottom line is... It's more grind than fun.

You can complete all of this game's content(MAYBE with the exception of the new Trial) with any race, any class, dropped potions, crafted gear and 0 gold(? What does gold even have to do with content completion? ...well I suppose you'd need some gold for repairs but selling trash drops from the dungeon alone should get you enough).

Any other thoughts on the subject?

LadyNalcarya

Cathexis wrote: »

Seriously, I have no problem with hard content. It's when it's burried behind a wall of "you need this race, that class, these potions, that gear (that takes forever to grind), earn this much gold," the bottom line is... It's more grind than fun.

This is not truth, well, except for the grind.
I did my first clears of WGT and ICP on a wood elf magicka nightblade (tell me about optimal race), in vr14 sets from patch 1.6 (Martial Knowledge etc; cause the mats for vr16 gear and willpower jewelry pieces were expensive and scarse, and there wasnt Julianos set). I had around 300 champion points as well, and mobs were tougher at release, including those enaging atronachs.
I also just started playing Magblade at that time, and before that I mostly played as a healer or tank.

And grind is real, yeah. But even if you would be able to oneshot mobs, youre not guranteed to get your sets with good traits in any reasonable time. Fixing this wouldbe more casual friendly than any nerfs!4

Cathexis

Magdalina wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Seriously, I have no problem with hard content. It's when it's burried behind a wall of "you need this race, that class, these potions, that gear (that takes forever to grind), earn this much gold," the bottom line is... It's more grind than fun.

You can complete all of this game's content(MAYBE with the exception of the new Trial) with any race, any class, dropped potions, crafted gear and 0 gold(? What does gold even have to do with content completion? ...well I suppose you'd need some gold for repairs but selling trash drops from the dungeon alone should get you enough).

Any other thoughts on the subject?

Did they nerf Maelstrom in the last patch? I've been barely playing anymore because the grind factor is so bad and with mael specifically the cost was too high to bother with if you didn't play a class/race/spec that was custom made for mael and fit the play style parameters... And... You cant remove the example that fits the scenario being talked about because it proves your point. That's like saying "All cats are small (except wild large cats but they don't count), so you can cuddle any cats you want."

LadyNalcarya

Cathexis wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Seriously, I have no problem with hard content. It's when it's burried behind a wall of "you need this race, that class, these potions, that gear (that takes forever to grind), earn this much gold," the bottom line is... It's more grind than fun.

You can complete all of this game's content(MAYBE with the exception of the new Trial) with any race, any class, dropped potions, crafted gear and 0 gold(? What does gold even have to do with content completion? ...well I suppose you'd need some gold for repairs but selling trash drops from the dungeon alone should get you enough).

Any other thoughts on the subject?

Did they nerf Maelstrom in the last patch? I've been barely playing anymore because the grind factor is so bad and with mael specifically the cost was too high to bother with if you didn't play a class/race/spec that was custom made for mael and fit the play style parameters... And... You cant remove the example that fits the scenario being talked about because it proves your point. That's like saying "All cats are small (except wild large cats but they don't count), so you can cuddle any cats you want."

I think they nerfed centurion minibosses or something... I was quite fed up with vMA after gridning my inferno staff, and havent done it since I got it.
And youre not right about not being able to do it on certain races and classes. For example, stamplar is considered to be "underdog" class by majority of players, but I know one that did no-death run of vMA. You dont have to be magicka sorc to finish it.
Though I agree about grinds. For a casual player vMA run takes a lot of time, and getting a necklace with mismatched trait is not exactly motivating, especially when they cant/dont want to do many runs.
If the difficulty would be nerfed thought, the grind would stay exactly the same. Nerfs wont make the ger more accesible for players that dont have much time to play.

Magdalina

Cathexis wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Seriously, I have no problem with hard content. It's when it's burried behind a wall of "you need this race, that class, these potions, that gear (that takes forever to grind), earn this much gold," the bottom line is... It's more grind than fun.

You can complete all of this game's content(MAYBE with the exception of the new Trial) with any race, any class, dropped potions, crafted gear and 0 gold(? What does gold even have to do with content completion? ...well I suppose you'd need some gold for repairs but selling trash drops from the dungeon alone should get you enough).

Any other thoughts on the subject?

Did they nerf Maelstrom in the last patch? I've been barely playing anymore because the grind factor is so bad and with mael specifically the cost was too high to bother with if you didn't play a class/race/spec that was custom made for mael and fit the play style parameters... And... You cant remove the example that fits the scenario being talked about because it proves your point. That's like saying "All cats are small (except wild large cats but they don't count), so you can cuddle any cats you want."

I don't like Maelstrom and I have not completed it myself(and my main is a breton magicka sorc even). I am pretty sure it is possible to compete it with any class, race and crafted gear though, even if it is easier using certain combinations. Crafted gear is actually pretty damn good.

I agree the grind sucks though. Another reason why MA doesn't inspire me to try again. I can already see that Defending Maelstrom Axe on one of my magicka characters(I don't play stamina). But thing is you don't need to complete the grind to do the game's content. You only need to complete the grind if for whatever reason you want the super BiS gear(which will let you be more effective and complete said content more efficiently/faster). A small % of the BiS gear is "locked" behind some of the harder content. No content is "locked" behind the BiS gear though(can't say anything about new Trial simply because I haven't run it).

Ironically though, they are not nerfing Maelstrom(at least as far as we know) - the one piece of content which at least somewhat makes sense to complain about(and no, I don't think it needs a nerf, I think it needs bug and lag fixes). They are nerfing the content people already 2 man and solo and can probably run naked.

Khaos_Bane

So instead of ZoS making a game for a majority of the people they should make them just for @KoshkaMurka

code65536

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So instead of ZoS making a game for a majority of the people they should make them just for @KoshkaMurka

ZOS should keep the 10% of the game that the @KoshkaMurkas like as-is. 90% of the game is already mind-numbingly easy. Why must the other 10% be like that too? The game needs a variety of content for the variety of people who play it. It should not be homogenized for a majority.

LadyNalcarya

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So instead of ZoS making a game for a majority of the people they should make them just for @KoshkaMurka

Wat. o.O
Next time read the topic before you reply please.
And dont use abstract "majority" as your argument please. Majority is not clones, you know.

LadyNalcarya

code65536 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So instead of ZoS making a game for a majority of the people they should make them just for @KoshkaMurka

ZOS should keep the 10% of the game that the @KoshkaMurkas like as-is. 90% of the game is already mind-numbingly easy. Why must the other 10% be like that too? The game needs a variety of content for the variety of people who play it. It should not be homogenized for a majority.

100% agree with this. Even 1-5% in every dlc would be pretty damn nice.

Kurimugann

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

There's your reality, and then there's the reality of people who came across the wrong "Elitists" game after game, year after year and were told year after year that they would never be good enough. That's the sad part of a game that is meant for older teens/adults to play is that the people know better than to trust anyone to be nice online. They exist, I met some, but things like "You should quit for the good of the community" or "Don't group that person, they do not know how to play" are CARVED in us, well in me at least.

Back to OP, no I am not open to nerfing, especially if it did not need it. But nerfed or not, I'll never find a group nice enough to accept my Magicka Khajiit Sorceress/Werewolf to even try it. and Casuals are not all filthy, the (Bad) Hardcores are the ones who with filthy mouths.

@Kurimugann what's your platform and server?

Ps4/NA and I never actually saw Emperor's new Groove.

LadyNalcarya

Kurimugann wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

There's your reality, and then there's the reality of people who came across the wrong "Elitists" game after game, year after year and were told year after year that they would never be good enough. That's the sad part of a game that is meant for older teens/adults to play is that the people know better than to trust anyone to be nice online. They exist, I met some, but things like "You should quit for the good of the community" or "Don't group that person, they do not know how to play" are CARVED in us, well in me at least.

Back to OP, no I am not open to nerfing, especially if it did not need it. But nerfed or not, I'll never find a group nice enough to accept my Magicka Khajiit Sorceress/Werewolf to even try it. and Casuals are not all filthy, the (Bad) Hardcores are the ones who with filthy mouths.

@Kurimugann what's your platform and server?

Ps4/NA and I never actually saw Emperor's new Groove.

Seems like a community issue, sadly... At least on PC/EU those things are far from being common.

Shunravi

Kurimugann wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

There's your reality, and then there's the reality of people who came across the wrong "Elitists" game after game, year after year and were told year after year that they would never be good enough. That's the sad part of a game that is meant for older teens/adults to play is that the people know better than to trust anyone to be nice online. They exist, I met some, but things like "You should quit for the good of the community" or "Don't group that person, they do not know how to play" are CARVED in us, well in me at least.

Back to OP, no I am not open to nerfing, especially if it did not need it. But nerfed or not, I'll never find a group nice enough to accept my Magicka Khajiit Sorceress/Werewolf to even try it. and Casuals are not all filthy, the (Bad) Hardcores are the ones who with filthy mouths.

@Kurimugann what's your platform and server?

Ps4/NA and I never actually saw Emperor's new Groove.

Dang. I'm pc. I like running with new people, and the picture is more about the concept; 'I'll run with you even if if I'm carrying you.'

Cathexis

code65536 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So instead of ZoS making a game for a majority of the people they should make them just for @KoshkaMurka

ZOS should keep the 10% of the game that the @KoshkaMurkas like as-is. 90% of the game is already mind-numbingly easy. Why must the other 10% be like that too? The game needs a variety of content for the variety of people who play it. It should not be homogenized for a majority.

I just want to make the distinction that there is a difference between making the game "harder" and making it "grindy." Having to earn something vital to game play, especially if you are playing a competitive area of the game, doesn't make the game harder, it puts a physical distinction between two players where all other factors are equal that prevents them from competing on an equal playing field because one player has been given entitlements. I don't think anyone wants the content to be homogenized. Also to the others, I'm not saying that you couldn't use a wide variety of classes/skills/races, just that some a more effective than others... For example on my stam sorc I have to basically rebuild my entire spec from the ground up to make it work on VMA and have all the necessary provisions. My natural play style simply doesn't work.

What I'm saying is that difficulty should be a factor of your ability to play and respond to the mechanics and not a factor of entitlements because you have certain items or play a certain way. And yes, I get that there is a meta, but I think reinforcing the meta instead of trying to diversify it is what is killing the game, not homogenizing the content.

LadyNalcarya

Cathexis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So instead of ZoS making a game for a majority of the people they should make them just for @KoshkaMurka

ZOS should keep the 10% of the game that the @KoshkaMurkas like as-is. 90% of the game is already mind-numbingly easy. Why must the other 10% be like that too? The game needs a variety of content for the variety of people who play it. It should not be homogenized for a majority.

I just want to make the distinction that there is a difference between making the game "harder" and making it "grindy." Having to earn something vital to game play, especially if you are playing a competitive area of the game, doesn't make the game harder, it puts a physical distinction between two players where all other factors are equal that prevents them from competing on an equal playing field because one player has been given entitlements. I don't think anyone wants the content to be homogenized. Also to the others, I'm not saying that you couldn't use a wide variety of classes/skills/races, just that some a more effective than others... For example on my stam sorc I have to basically rebuild my entire spec from the ground up to make it work on VMA and have all the necessary provisions. My natural play style simply doesn't work.

What I'm saying is that difficulty should be a factor of your ability to play and respond to the mechanics and not a factor of entitlements because you have certain items or play a certain way. And yes, I get that there is a meta, but I think reinforcing the meta instead of trying to diversify it is what is killing the game, not homogenizing the content.

Homegenizing the content does not encourage variety though. Even if you would be able to kill everything with light attacks, there will still be builds that would kill stuff faster and survive better. Like in Skyrim, the game was easy, but some things were clearly more powerful than others.
Even if all content would be super easy, your stamsorc's playstyle wont become more unique and exciting.
It wont add variety for that char, either way any stamsorc would be sticking to wb/steel tornado/etc.
And btw if you look at people in questing zones, there's not thta much variety as well - a lot of pet sorcs in bound armor, rogue stamblades, tanky dks and templars...

Kurimugann

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

There's your reality, and then there's the reality of people who came across the wrong "Elitists" game after game, year after year and were told year after year that they would never be good enough. That's the sad part of a game that is meant for older teens/adults to play is that the people know better than to trust anyone to be nice online. They exist, I met some, but things like "You should quit for the good of the community" or "Don't group that person, they do not know how to play" are CARVED in us, well in me at least.

Back to OP, no I am not open to nerfing, especially if it did not need it. But nerfed or not, I'll never find a group nice enough to accept my Magicka Khajiit Sorceress/Werewolf to even try it. and Casuals are not all filthy, the (Bad) Hardcores are the ones who with filthy mouths.

@Kurimugann what's your platform and server?

Ps4/NA and I never actually saw Emperor's new Groove.

Dang. I'm pc. I like running with new people, and the picture is more about the concept; 'I'll run with you even if if I'm carrying you.'

I DO have a PC/NA character but there it's Argonian Stamina Dragon Knight/Werewolf who struggles to PvE solo. I got too discouraged to continue on her. As much as I appreciate the though I feel bad about being carried (partly because it's usually considered a bad thing).

Shunravi

Kurimugann wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Kurimugann wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MidnightBlue wrote: »

I'm not for nerfing content, because I can complete the dungeons fine. Maybe if elitists would stop being *** and help new players with content and accept players that have a DPS time of a few seconds above a minute in trials then maybe people wouldn't call for nerfs.

Lots of "elitist" publish guides, walkthrough and so on in forums/youtube and also answer questions ingame. Biggest problem i see with "pugs" is the lack of communication. If the guys don't even talk in groupchat they cannot expect to get helped.

edit: there are also lots of guilds who teach new people and help them ingame...just find them, they are real

There's your reality, and then there's the reality of people who came across the wrong "Elitists" game after game, year after year and were told year after year that they would never be good enough. That's the sad part of a game that is meant for older teens/adults to play is that the people know better than to trust anyone to be nice online. They exist, I met some, but things like "You should quit for the good of the community" or "Don't group that person, they do not know how to play" are CARVED in us, well in me at least.

Back to OP, no I am not open to nerfing, especially if it did not need it. But nerfed or not, I'll never find a group nice enough to accept my Magicka Khajiit Sorceress/Werewolf to even try it. and Casuals are not all filthy, the (Bad) Hardcores are the ones who with filthy mouths.

@Kurimugann what's your platform and server?

Ps4/NA and I never actually saw Emperor's new Groove.

Dang. I'm pc. I like running with new people, and the picture is more about the concept; 'I'll run with you even if if I'm carrying you.'

I DO have a PC/NA character but there it's Argonian Stamina Dragon Knight/Werewolf who struggles to PvE solo. I got too discouraged to continue on her. As much as I appreciate the though I feel bad about being carried (partly because it's usually considered a bad thing).

It's not a bad thing, it can be seen that way, but I don't mind. What matters is having fun, and if I can make that happen for someone, that's even better.

That's why I chose the image. I wanted to depict the idea in a fun loving mood, and not the negative connotation of the phrase

Asherons_Call

What are you people arguing about for nine pages?

Shunravi

Asherons_Call wrote: »

What are you people arguing about for nine pages?

I like pie!

With whipped cream!

But some people are lactose intolerant!

So they want to make it so no pies have whipped cream!

I'm sad!

ButtersEP

All I want to do is quest with my redguard magika petsorc

Then occasionally play vr16 vICP but I cant, this most be nerfed !

Rune_Relic

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Why casuals are so entitled?

Because we paid the same money you did.

So youre paying for a game for you, and were paying for the game for you... Interesting.

We all paid for the same content that we all should be able to make full use of. If it's at the state where only 10% of us (you) can actually enjoy it, while the rest of us have trouble, then there's something wrong here, and it's not us.

You have the same ability to access it as everyone else. You simply choose not to make the effort to do so.

This, I just thought the same.

I for myself have chosen to play the standard PvE content solo. Do I get a TON of content for my money? YES.
I also have chosen to not (or just rarely) PvP or run dungeons much. Do I miss a lot of content? YES.
But, that's the way I've chosen, and I'm ok with that.

I don't understand players who always want more for zero effort.
Also, while I'm not always satisfied what ZOS does or does not, I'm SURE that they had a reason when they set the difficulty to "incredibly high" for some content. After all, there ARE players who can accomplish this kind of content, and they're having a lot of fun, of what I read or hear. I'm not one of them, but I still think they should be able to test out their skills to the top end where they can say "I've done it!".
For me personally, I had these moments everytime I read the following achievements onscreen: Hero of the Ebonheart Pact - Hero of the Daggerfall Covenant - Hero of the Aldmeri Dominion.. with 8 characters, and 6x I even got the Tamriel Hero! "I've done it, again!"^^ I wouldn't have wanted to get this content nerfed to the ground because more skilled players would have complained (it WAS nerfed, but not because of them), and I don't want "their" content to get nerfed either, why would I want to ruin their fun?!

So everyone who thinks that some difficult content needs a nerf: calm down, there's enough content for everyone's taste.

This is fair and true.
There has to be content for new people to train.
There has to be stuff for experienced competent people to feel challenged...but not impossible.
There has to be stuff to push the very best to the extremes and ...even then ....fail.

So you need 3 dungeon levels.
Bronze - training level with superior gear reward on completion (anyone reasonably competent)
Silver - experienced level with epic gear on completion (hard but attainable by most)
Gold - benchmark level with legendary gear on completion (Elite - few if any will complete.)

Gear shouldnt be gated.
But quality should reflect the difficulty with at least a token gesture..maybe even cosmetic differences.

I also see no reason why the LFG couldnt have 3 tabs.
Training, Experienced, Elite
This puts a buffer between Elite and trainee dungeon crawlers

IMHO

Artis

DocFrost72 wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I think the disconnect here is real. Let me attempt to bridge the gap.

OP, ZoS made the decision ultimately, which means they have reasons to believe the changes were necessary. You have every right to disagree, but ultimately they did this. "Casuals" (which is a word with a negative connotation, BTW) are a scapegoat in this situation because we don't know why ZoS made the call. You can theorize but tbh that is *** all.

Yes hard content should exist, there is no question about it. But there is a limit on how far to go. In the words of Redbeard (the DC vet pledge character) "If you seek a greater challenge", disable your CP. I know, I know, "Why should I have to disable my well earned CP in order to get a challenge?" My answer: because you CAN disable your CP, while others can't just magically find the time to 'get good'. Who knows, maybe ZoS will implement an extra Key for those that disable CP spending in the future? That adds challenge without forcing it.

Hopefully this can help you understand why "casuals" such as myself did not ask for this, but aren't jumping up and down screaming and complaining that it is happening. How dare they take away YOUR challenge, I concur! After all, its all about entitlement.

the point here is there is normal mode and everyother dungeon for those who are unable or unwilling to learn these 3. what 4 man content is there for those of us who want a challenge?

You missed my entire argument. Literally flew over your head. What I am saying is that you come off as condescending to a playerbase that by your own estimates is the majority (not sure how true that is) because they may be new, or have a busy schedule, or a great deal of other things. Did you even read my suggestion for CPless runs for more reward, or did you skip after about three lines?

Like I said, share. Compromise. How's that for "entitlement"

Umm, so you're saying we should be punished for having a lot of CP? Because it costs gold to do that. Why would you punish good players? That's not logical.

And anyways, it simply means good players will get 1 more key every day. Instead you could not change anything, baddies won't be able to complete wgt and icp and will get 0.4 keys a day fewer than players who can complete hard mode in wgt and icp. 1>0.4. So your suggestion actually gives even more keys/loot. Then why not just leave those dungeons alone?

ArchMikem wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Why casuals are so entitled?

Because we paid the same money you did.

So why do you get to have 100% of the content? On the other hand, she paid as much as you did, so why can't she have freaking couple of dungeons for her to play? You have many more of them.

ArchMikem wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

But this decision of Zos removes the only pieces of 4man endgame content in this game. Those dungeons have been nerfed multiple times already, and in a really harsh way. Now people who like the fact that those dungeons were harder than others, and also paid for the game, are screwed. Dont you see a problem here?

How are they screwed? I honestly don't get it, what do you get out of doing a dungeon that's especially difficult to finish? You're just gonna get some armor piece, maybe a weapon you don't want, and then do it over again. And again. Like the other people here that say they've done them hundreds of times for loot drops. The logical thing that could be done is to lessen the difficulty so the whole process is less strenuous.

Or maybe I just don't belong in the "MMO Crowd". It's too bad though, Elder Scrolls being such a great universe and game but this being made as an MMORPG has brought in a playerbase that's way out of my comfort zone. There's absolutely nothing wrong with "Casuals". Games were originally meant as relaxing entertainment, but there are many people here, not you personally, that just love to *** on the little guy.

We are screwed because those dungeons won't be fun. Most of us already only run pledges ICP and WGT because the rest are just not fun. Might as well go solo a delve in Glenumbra. We want to play and have fun too. We want to feel that we are accomplishing something and are beating something that is not that trivial to beat. Not a Glenumbra delve, but a dungeon for a group of V16s.

I mean, it's also very enjoyable to do something and feel that your group is dying less and enemies are dying faster -- so you know you got stronger and better. You can't know that if all dungeons are like solo delves for you. In that case all these mobs are just a waste of time - something you HAVE to do to get your loot, like a chore. Not interesting, not fun, just something you have to do
I mean, in this case it doesn't even matter who you kill - atronachs, daedra, humans, argonians, wamasu... They all die fast and you simply spam 1 button, don't even need to know their mechanics.

The main question is:

Why do you want to nerf it? Because people can't complete it in one go and it's too hard to progress and spend time there? Well then how about you ask for a save-option like the one they gave you in VMA? That way we can still have some challenge (those dungeons are already pretty outdated with new gear and more CP) and casuals can still complete it!

And don't get me wrong, I'm a casual player too. I don't have time to play all that often and regularly anymore. I play a few nights a week for a couple of hours. And still I want for the game to have hard content! That gives you motivation to play and get gear and develop your character. That's how you can compare yourself to what you were before. If you couldn't complete it before but now you can - that means you know you are stronger. If you died instantly but now can take 70% of hp - that means you made some progress.. Casual doesn't mean bad. I did complete vet MA for example. I'm pretty bad compared to your hardcore players who live in game or have better connection lol. But still - I did complete vMA and vICP and vWGT (last 2 with purple v14 gear as a tank - right after release. The whole group had v14-v15 gear. Then later as a DPS).

Volkodav

I dont think they should nerf those places being spoken about.I mean,I'll never be able to conquer them,but that isnt the point.For those who excel at the hardest content,they should have that elite gear.Not those of us who arent into learning the mechanics and gaining the proper skills to work those dungeons and trials.
If we want that gear,we should have to work hard for it as it isnt normal gear,is it.
I dont believe in any entitlement crap.Not for either side of the issue.

MidnightBlue

code65536 wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

THe truth is that many "hardcore" players refuse to party up with newer players because they want their run to be perfect and this result, most of the times, to newest player not having a chance of partecipating in group content unless they have a group of RL friends to go with them.

This is another example of how people deny fun to other people in order to have fun... and it's something wrong.

I'm quite sure that if people didn't start to ask for "achievements" before creating groups, did not refuse to party up with other players etc wel... the nerfing would not be in the game so if those people now complain i can just say "blame yourself".

It's not about a run being perfect. It's about time. There are times when I'm bored, with nothing better to do, and I'll just the queue for a random dungeon and I tell myself that I'll stick it out no matter what I get. Even if it means wiping for 90 minutes on vCoA with people who had never done it before. But most of the time, I just don't have the time for that.

But why must you group with experienced people in order to have fun? You are not entitled to our time, and we aren't "denying" you anything.

When I first started doing the vet dungeons as a cluelessly bad player, I did so with friends. Not real-life friends, but people that I met in-game through guild chat or zone chat. And we were all newbies. When we walked into vCoH, none of us had ever done it before. And yes, it was a painful wipefest, but it was fun to learn and experience a new dungeon with people of your own (crappy) skill level and to basically "grow up together" with a group of people in-game.

Yes, there were a few dungeons where my first clears were under the tutelage of a more experienced player, but most of the content that I cleared for the first time are with people of a similar skill and experience level, where we go in and experience/learn it together. Which in and of itself is a very fun experience in a MMO. Some of my best memories in ESO are of me improving, getting better, doing progressively harder content, and "growing up" alongside other people going through that same process.

Well you got lucky. There are a lot of bad stubborn players that refuse to grow and get better because they think their set up is right and that everyone else is wrong. I had to stop playing with a lot of people like that because most didn't want to learn the mechanics or want to change up their skills/builds. They kept doing the same thing hoping for a different better outcome, but kept failing. I finally found some good people who can get dungeons done with me, but that took A LOT of time on my end to get better and search for better players or players that wanted to get better.

Artis

Volkodav wrote: »

I dont think they should nerf those places being spoken about.I mean,I'll never be able to conquer them,but that isnt the point.For those who excel at the hardest content,they should have that elite gear.Not those of us who arent into learning the mechanics and gaining the proper skills to work those dungeons and trials.
If we want that gear,we should have to work hard for it as it isnt normal gear,is it.
I dont believe in any entitlement crap.Not for either side of the issue.

If you play on NA - just send a message and you will conquer these places soon. You might need to change your build a little here and there, but you will complete these dungeons. I can guarantee that.

SanTii.92

Hey @KoshkaMurka, while I hadn't read the 9 pages, I can reply to you original post saying that I'm pretty sure nerfing wgt and icp is 100% a call being made by Zos. Nor this forum or reddit was flooded with nerfing cries and most people I know that can't complete wgt or icp now are just kind of ok with it and don't really care.

That said, I do share the concern for lacking of challenging content, at least for 4-man, my favorite type. But I do believe this will be addressed by Zos by adding new dungeons and eentually a difficulty slider of some sort.

And about wgt and icp nerfs in particular, I didn't test them, but I don't care that much honestly. It's not like the dungeons are fun because they are particularly challenging whatsoever.

Vangy

Just slap the word elitist into a sentence with a problem you have and come to forums and rage about it.....

Oh malestrom arena is too hard, only 1% can do it! WHY ESO SO ELITIST?
Oh X X X content so hard, WHY ESO SO ELITIST?
Oh crafting takes too long, you need to have no life to level it, WHY SO ELITIST?
Oh v16s dont invite me to their helm farm run cos im v1, WHY SO ELITIST?
Oh CP ranks should be hidden if not elitists will never invite me to their group! WHY SO ELITIST?

Well you get the idea...