Group finder & Job Roles

hoaxburnrwb17_ESO

jzholloway wrote: »

I know this is a common occurrence, but I used the group finder last night to run a "random" normal dungeon while waiting to run vWGT with my normal team. I got plugged into Spindleclutch - not too bad on normal at all - with a lvl 19, a lvl 45 and another VR16. Both the 19 and 45 where job slotted for more then one job - the lvl 19 was slotted for all three, tank, healer and dps (all of this was a joke - he followed, could not hold aggro, didn't do much damage and certainly did not heal), the 45 was slotted as a healer and dps - better on damage, but no healing to speak of. Only myself (slotted as a DPS - on my stamplar) and the other stamplar were slotted properly (both as DPS) - sadly, we also performed all of the heals, tanking and revives.
I know it would be difficult for zenimax to only allow people to slot jobs based on skills slotted or whatever - we all run some sort of healing usually, along with DPS, but what if ZOS only allowed us to slot one job? Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired - so I know this could still be an issue of time, but seriously, allowing for someone to slot for more then one job simply to play the duty finder is crap.
Yes, we completed the dungeon - but it was painful (and costly) since even the most sustained builds can't stay alive forever in a scaled VR16 normal dungeon and do all or share most of the DPS.

i suggest the following:
1 - Can only slot for one job
2 - After dungeon, each person can "star" someone who performed in their role (make this mean something so someone will actually play the role they slotted)
3- After dungeon, allow for a user feedback where if someone slots as a healer yet never heals, we can let the "game" know. Or at least let the person know by an auto mail or something. i realize some people slot as a healer and actually try to heal, constructive criticism of some sort can be useful for these people.
4 - Allow negative marks - if someone receives X amount of negative marks based upon job selection, that person cannot slot in that role for X amount of days for random dungeon finder. It would add the incentive to actually slot for your role. If someone is concerned about the wait, start a healer or a tank and learn how to do that too - its not like the rewards cannot be shared among characters.

I would assume on veteran difficulty this would be an even bigger issue - make the positive/negative marks mean more.

you sir are just crazy talking. there's a reason why its called "random" group finder.. if you want your own private group then group with your friends. if you do not like how a person plays the role then STOP q'ing RANDOM group finder and get your own private team. negative marks HAH!. im going to negatively mark this post.

exeeter702

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Why on earth did you even bother with all that? The majority of the people here have been playing this genre for *** years now, this was offensively redundant and unnecessary.

I'm well aware of what ZoS aimed to achieve with therr game and skill system. It allows flexibility period.

The point is, having back up gear and skills would swap in and out depending on what happens in a group does not make you a hybrid, it simply means you are switching to another build.

In the most vegetable brain content, yes a mage dps have a full back bar for healing, but for content that means anything at end game no 5 bar loadout is ever going to be enough by itself.

The point is, it's a catch 22, new players likely don't have the knowledge in the "easy" dungeons to make use of a versatile build or perhaps lack the resources / skill points. Rigid strict roles have been pushed in this game for a while, and the sooner new players understand that, the better and more flexible they will be when they graduate to more difficult content.

Multiple available builds does not make you a hybrid.

Role education needs to be more rigid and focusd in the leveling dungeon time for new players.

Everyone discussing this topic is WELL aware of what the three roles do, please do not patronize me or anyone else with your long winded explanation.

Based on your comments your either skimming or didn't bother to read it. It's not rude or patronizing anyone...it's that your applying a traditional trinity mindset to a game that doesn't work that way. While it allows you to play it like a traditional trinity that's not the best or only way so while you may say you're well aware of the roles, I'm reading you are well aware of those roles in context to other MMO type games and holding that logic and forcing it to apply here.

Let me make it plain.....I'm not swapping armor, stats or gear...just skills.
It's built that way

Even simply swapping skills, that still doesn't make someone a hybrid.

Role selection is a reality, and while this game is flexible, it still absolutely follows a trinity system.

Zorrashi

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Why on earth did you even bother with all that? The majority of the people here have been playing this genre for *** years now, this was offensively redundant and unnecessary.

I'm well aware of what ZoS aimed to achieve with therr game and skill system. It allows flexibility period.

The point is, having back up gear and skills would swap in and out depending on what happens in a group does not make you a hybrid, it simply means you are switching to another build.

In the most vegetable brain content, yes a mage dps have a full back bar for healing, but for content that means anything at end game no 5 bar loadout is ever going to be enough by itself.

The point is, it's a catch 22, new players likely don't have the knowledge in the "easy" dungeons to make use of a versatile build or perhaps lack the resources / skill points. Rigid strict roles have been pushed in this game for a while, and the sooner new players understand that, the better and more flexible they will be when they graduate to more difficult content.

Multiple available builds does not make you a hybrid.

Role education needs to be more rigid and focusd in the leveling dungeon time for new players.

Everyone discussing this topic is WELL aware of what the three roles do, please do not patronize me or anyone else with your long winded explanation.

Based on your comments your either skimming or didn't bother to read it. It's not rude or patronizing anyone...it's that your applying a traditional trinity mindset to a game that doesn't work that way. While it allows you to play it like a traditional trinity that's not the best or only way so while you may say you're well aware of the roles, I'm reading you are well aware of those roles in context to other MMO type games and holding that logic and forcing it to apply here.

Let me make it plain.....I'm not swapping armor, stats or gear...just skills.
It's built that way

Even simply swapping skills, that still doesn't make someone a hybrid.

Role selection is a reality, and while this game is flexible, it still absolutely follows a trinity system.

Not all the time though. Trinity is far from a mandatory perquisite, though it can be encouraged.

FortheloveofKrist

swirve wrote: »

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

DudeBro, give it a rest.

NewBlacksmurf

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Why on earth did you even bother with all that? The majority of the people here have been playing this genre for *** years now, this was offensively redundant and unnecessary.

I'm well aware of what ZoS aimed to achieve with therr game and skill system. It allows flexibility period.

The point is, having back up gear and skills would swap in and out depending on what happens in a group does not make you a hybrid, it simply means you are switching to another build.

In the most vegetable brain content, yes a mage dps have a full back bar for healing, but for content that means anything at end game no 5 bar loadout is ever going to be enough by itself.

The point is, it's a catch 22, new players likely don't have the knowledge in the "easy" dungeons to make use of a versatile build or perhaps lack the resources / skill points. Rigid strict roles have been pushed in this game for a while, and the sooner new players understand that, the better and more flexible they will be when they graduate to more difficult content.

Multiple available builds does not make you a hybrid.

Role education needs to be more rigid and focusd in the leveling dungeon time for new players.

Everyone discussing this topic is WELL aware of what the three roles do, please do not patronize me or anyone else with your long winded explanation.

Based on your comments your either skimming or didn't bother to read it. It's not rude or patronizing anyone...it's that your applying a traditional trinity mindset to a game that doesn't work that way. While it allows you to play it like a traditional trinity that's not the best or only way so while you may say you're well aware of the roles, I'm reading you are well aware of those roles in context to other MMO type games and holding that logic and forcing it to apply here.

Let me make it plain.....I'm not swapping armor, stats or gear...just skills.
It's built that way

Even simply swapping skills, that still doesn't make someone a hybrid.

Role selection is a reality, and while this game is flexible, it still absolutely follows a trinity system.

Please detail where the game guide and ZOS articles align with your opinions on how others should play?
Continue on to show where players are restricted to the trinity and where this change occurred because the info I'm basing this off is ZOS articles, not my own thoughts but literally their written words "
Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:
"

That quote above is from ZOS and it clearly states players are not locked into performing one role like other MMORPGs. It point blank identifies the "open ended skill system" is how and uses weapon swap and the bars as example

LadyNalcarya

This seems to be a common issue, but imo restrictions to gear/spells or intruducing player rankings wont help much because the roots of the problem are not here.
Not all newbies are bad because they're to stupid or arrogant to cooperate. Their chars are "bad" because they're just clueless. Not every player googles builds etc before joining their first pug, and PvE outiside group dungeons is way too easy to teach players the mechanics. During questing, you dont need to interrupt enemies, prioritize them or use more than one skill... Well, maybe 2 skills, is your spammable doesnt heal.
Roles are not even explained in game. Of course, description of inner fire and ransack says that it draws aggro, but many new players dont really pay attention to this. The situation is even worse if you consider that for many players ESO is their first (and perhaps, the only) mmo game so they might be unaware that taunt mechanic even exists. They might've heard that "tank" is a tough guy in heavy armor that goes toes to toes with enemies or something vague like this, but that's it.
So I agree with posters that proposed inventing tutorial missions that would explain the new players the basics of their role.
However, some people are just too stubborn to change anything, even if its essential for the role they want to play. I've met a lot of them when I was actively pugging. And I dont think there's a way to persuade them to play their chosen role and help their group. Imo, leaving/kicking is the only thing you can possibly do if you meet those people. For example, a couple of days ago I joined a random normal dungeon run through group finder tool, just out of curiousity. I queued as a healer/dd, since I can solo almost all normal dungeons (except those with special mechanics) on that spec.
Once it added me to a group that was on the last boss of Direfrost Keep. They couldnt defeat her because of healing beam, so I helped a bit. Even though 3 players in this group were new and pre-vet, they were actively cooperating and I cant say anything bad about them - they didnt even require much heals. And I understand that not everyone knows the mechanic or is experienced enough.
Another group consisted of cake week alts and was a cakewalk. Literally.
Third one... Well. It was just Elden Hollow, but the players in that group managed to turn this easy dungeon into bloody mess. No one in group had aoe skills (even though they were vr ranked, and highest ranked player was mostly using heavy attacks), and tank didnt have a taunt. On top of that, they were aggroing all the mobs on sight (everyone from the room + pack from the corridor for example), even though I politely asked them to take 1 group at once or at least use aoe. At the first big room, they pulled 2 bosses - a melee orc and spriggan from the corner. I asked them not to do that anymore and focus on one group, blah blah blah. But in the room with a melee sorc boss they pulled him and the alits from another room, and all the trash. So I left. I could've killed the mobs and carried them to the end, but I just didnt want to encourage such behavior.
This game is really easy, and imo the only way to be really bad at it is to ignore everything and everyone. Which is really unfair and rude to the teammates.

TL;DR:
There's 2 "problematic" types of players: those that are simply unexperienced, and this is a game's fault; and those who are just too arrogant and expect everyone to carry them, these types do not deserve any encouragement. Good for them if they pug with experienced players, but what if they join a newbie group?

P.S. Also I dont understand why pugs must be a cesspool for the worst of the players. All those "you expect a tank to taunt? gtfo and find an elite guild". Pug=random group, bad group is just.. Well, bad group.

stojekarcub18_ESO

[quote="jzholloway;259929" Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired"[/quote]

Try queuing as a tank. They're not needed or wanted anymore.

LadyNalcarya

stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired"

Try queuing as a tank. They're not needed or wanted anymore.

I think the group tool might be just bugged - pugs in Elden Root are always LF1M tank.

CaptainBeerDude

stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »

[quote="jzholloway;259929" Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired"

Try queuing as a tank. They're not needed or wanted anymore.

[/quote]

Dual queue as tank/healer. Pops real fast. Only got me twice as healer. And one of those didn't have a tank, but resto staves were everywhere, so I did it. Dual spec is amazing for getting dungeons done.

failkiwib16_ESO

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Well I just had my first ever experience with a guy que in as tank, but be a low vet rank dps. It actually turned out fun and cute, as he was sneaking and hiding behind barrels and crates

I have to admit, I was prepared to kick anyone out that got into our group, who didn't deliver on his role ...however, v3 with close to 30k hp and hiding like that was just adorable

Holy Jeebus. 30k at v3! My v16 only hits around 31k with food. my 30ish tank/heals can manage around 28k when scaled. Also, neither of them need to hide. Did his HP stacking remove all of his mitigation?

@CaptainBeerDude we used the grouping tool, so he was battlescaled ... that is how he managed close to 30k hp. It only prevented him from getting one shotted from mobs, he took soooo much dmg in the dungeon

I've also been with a v2 real tank that was unaware he was battlescaled to 40k hp, so when we ported into the dungeon ...me and my group started talking about it, and he just got confused lol

I think most v16 tanks I've run with have had between 22k - 28k

Gargath

What ZOS can make are those headshot-like unblockable spells from bosses which they randomly use on players killing them instantly. I had this on myself, and saw others dying in same way. Headshot boom - you die. Quite annoying. Fortunately rare.

Dubhliam

@NewBlacksmurf
So basically what you are saying is that it is not the fault of people who enlist as tank and don't do their job.

It is the fault of the 3 other people for not being hybrids and ready to take over when somebody fails horribly at the role they queued as.

Guppet

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

This is a wonderful idea.
There should be three solo instances where your ability to tank/heal/damage should be put to test. You are put into a dungeon with a simple layout, two rounds of mobs spawn after which a boss spawns. You get 2 NPC followers that fill in the other two roles. After you successfully complete an instance, you get the ability to queue for that role.
Much as crafters have to "prove their crafting ability" before they can start getting writs.

Instance 1: Tank trial
Mobs are immune to your attacks. Your goal is to CC and take as much aggro you can, preventing the NPC followers from dying. Boss should have some interruptable channels and some heavy hitting conal attacks.

Instance 2: Heal trial
Mobs take 80% less damage from your attacks. You never get aggro, the goal is to keep your NPC followers alive. This boss spits stackable DoTs, making status removal helpful. Also, buffing the group damage helps with the execute phase, where the healer is under greater pressure for every second the boss is alive.

Instance 3: Damage trial
You don't get aggro. Mobs have a lot of Area Effect skills, some casting Interrupt-me-or-be-dead mobs and a boss that spawns a lot of red don't-stand-in-me-stupid-or-get-one-shotted circles. Oh yeah, did I mention enrage? He gets enraged.
I'm thinking somewhere around 10k dps should get you through this dps race.

Add some dialogue with your NPC followers that explain your role and tactics before you start, and this should be a nice setup for the introduction to the holy trinity.

No....sorry no one needs to prove anything to play with others. We each get to choose to play or leave and that's O K. We can be good, great, awesome bad and even terrible.

Make sure to read the post above its About roles and is a good read

Sorry, the only thing I read from your ramblings is:

you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group

Don't know about other players on the forum, but I highly disagree with that.

If I know my role well, and I queue for that role, why should I be punished if I can't carry multiple people through a dungeon?

Rambling....it's the ZOS website.

Just because it's on the website, does not make it relavent. The game has changed massivly, since that was written. It would only be relavent if they redid it each time they patched. Hybrids were possible and actively encouraged, due to soft caps, when that was written, they no longer are. Glass cannons are not designed to be able to tank.

You can't be good at tanking at DPS anymore, you'll just be bad at both if you try. Healing and dps, that can be done.

Maybe Zos can get round this by changing the required roles for different dungeons. Maybe they clearly mark a load as being for 3 dps and one healer, others for a tank, healer and 2 dps.

Lucious90

The issue IMHO isnt the fact that you have terribad people slotting in groups that dont know what they are doing though that is something that comes up. The issue is with the group finder its self. Limiting ppl to just one role, isnt going to do jack to stop it from happening. Oh I can't role all three? Fine my dps will slot heals because I have rally and a resto staff. The role dynamic changes because you dont have traditional classes such as WoW where a rogue, warlock/mage, cant tank or heal. In ESO all classes can do all roles, now how well thats a different story. Now the ranking system could work gives people an idea of how competent you are at your class. Possibly include a little bonus reward for playing your role and well? Another issue that is with this Group Finder is the fact that it throws vr16s with lvl 10s and scales it. Then you run into situations where the not maxed player is gimped. Now what they need to do with the GF is group people based on 5-10 level brackets, so you get put in with people in a similar level. If you select multiple roles, the finder will put you in the role that is needed for the group within your bracket that it is forming, I feel this prevents ppl from having multiple roles within the group, but gives them the option to play the roles they want and have the gear for. Also vote to kick is a must in a group finder setting. Kicks people who cant do the instance or just plain bad at their role and wont listen to advice.

TheDarkShadow

And limit people to just 1 role can stop dps from queuing as tank just to get a group faster? Or is it only hurt good players who actually build a character that can do more than 1 role?

exeeter702

Guppet wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

This is a wonderful idea.
There should be three solo instances where your ability to tank/heal/damage should be put to test. You are put into a dungeon with a simple layout, two rounds of mobs spawn after which a boss spawns. You get 2 NPC followers that fill in the other two roles. After you successfully complete an instance, you get the ability to queue for that role.
Much as crafters have to "prove their crafting ability" before they can start getting writs.

Instance 1: Tank trial
Mobs are immune to your attacks. Your goal is to CC and take as much aggro you can, preventing the NPC followers from dying. Boss should have some interruptable channels and some heavy hitting conal attacks.

Instance 2: Heal trial
Mobs take 80% less damage from your attacks. You never get aggro, the goal is to keep your NPC followers alive. This boss spits stackable DoTs, making status removal helpful. Also, buffing the group damage helps with the execute phase, where the healer is under greater pressure for every second the boss is alive.

Instance 3: Damage trial
You don't get aggro. Mobs have a lot of Area Effect skills, some casting Interrupt-me-or-be-dead mobs and a boss that spawns a lot of red don't-stand-in-me-stupid-or-get-one-shotted circles. Oh yeah, did I mention enrage? He gets enraged.
I'm thinking somewhere around 10k dps should get you through this dps race.

Add some dialogue with your NPC followers that explain your role and tactics before you start, and this should be a nice setup for the introduction to the holy trinity.

No....sorry no one needs to prove anything to play with others. We each get to choose to play or leave and that's O K. We can be good, great, awesome bad and even terrible.

Make sure to read the post above its About roles and is a good read

Sorry, the only thing I read from your ramblings is:

you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group

Don't know about other players on the forum, but I highly disagree with that.

If I know my role well, and I queue for that role, why should I be punished if I can't carry multiple people through a dungeon?

Rambling....it's the ZOS website.

Just because it's on the website, does not make it relavent. The game has changed massivly, since that was written. It would only be relavent if they redid it each time they patched. Hybrids were possible and actively encouraged, due to soft caps, when that was written, they no longer are. Glass cannons are not designed to be able to tank.

You can't be good at tanking at DPS anymore, you'll just be bad at both if you try. Healing and dps, that can be done.

Maybe Zos can get round this by changing the required roles for different dungeons. Maybe they clearly mark a load as being for 3 dps and one healer, others for a tank, healer and 2 dps.

This.

exeeter702

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Why on earth did you even bother with all that? The majority of the people here have been playing this genre for *** years now, this was offensively redundant and unnecessary.

I'm well aware of what ZoS aimed to achieve with therr game and skill system. It allows flexibility period.

The point is, having back up gear and skills would swap in and out depending on what happens in a group does not make you a hybrid, it simply means you are switching to another build.

In the most vegetable brain content, yes a mage dps have a full back bar for healing, but for content that means anything at end game no 5 bar loadout is ever going to be enough by itself.

The point is, it's a catch 22, new players likely don't have the knowledge in the "easy" dungeons to make use of a versatile build or perhaps lack the resources / skill points. Rigid strict roles have been pushed in this game for a while, and the sooner new players understand that, the better and more flexible they will be when they graduate to more difficult content.

Multiple available builds does not make you a hybrid.

Role education needs to be more rigid and focusd in the leveling dungeon time for new players.

Everyone discussing this topic is WELL aware of what the three roles do, please do not patronize me or anyone else with your long winded explanation.

Based on your comments your either skimming or didn't bother to read it. It's not rude or patronizing anyone...it's that your applying a traditional trinity mindset to a game that doesn't work that way. While it allows you to play it like a traditional trinity that's not the best or only way so while you may say you're well aware of the roles, I'm reading you are well aware of those roles in context to other MMO type games and holding that logic and forcing it to apply here.

Let me make it plain.....I'm not swapping armor, stats or gear...just skills.
It's built that way

Even simply swapping skills, that still doesn't make someone a hybrid.

Role selection is a reality, and while this game is flexible, it still absolutely follows a trinity system.

Please detail where the game guide and ZOS articles align with your opinions on how others should play?
Continue on to show where players are restricted to the trinity and where this change occurred because the info I'm basing this off is ZOS articles, not my own thoughts but literally their written words "
Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:
"

That quote above is from ZOS and it clearly states players are not locked into performing one role like other MMORPGs. It point blank identifies the "open ended skill system" is how and uses weapon swap and the bars as example

You are getting way to hung up on this. No one is advocating against allowing players flexibility, the point stands, if they do not want to encourage a soft trinity system, then the group finder role selection would not exisit. All the website is saying is that if need be, without any type of restriction other than not being in combat, a player can arrange his skills to fill a different role, everyone here knows this simple truth and it has nothing to do with the issue of new players queuing up for roles they are not qualified to fill.

Forming a group manually has no restrictions simply because players have control of the party makeup etc etc. A automated tool by its very design needs to be more rigid and structure when forming a party of strangers. This is especially true for beginners. Enforcing a trinity system in the early group experience of the game will help new players and with enough clarity from Zos via in game implementation, they will understand what is required of them when they select the role.

Everything that you are parroting that is stated on the website (very outdated btw) is exactly why alot of new players are *** up the group finder in the first place, they misinterpret what the open ended flexibility in this game actually means.