Group finder & Job Roles

NewBlacksmurf

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

TheDarkShadow

Reykice wrote: »

Just call the people who do that griefers and ban them for 1 day for it if reported for the 1st time. 3 day for 2nd and so on.

You can select as many roles you want but if you can't do the one the dungeon selects for yoy and lie, you get banned for griefing the other 3 player.

Fair and simple, would remove the problem almost instantly and its done for swearing and such in other games.

What if they are new and don't know how to play? I believe it's against the game's spirit. ZOS has locked the group dps track addon for that reason. I'm against punish players for leaving group just because they don't want to run with newbie, but I also against punish players just because they can't play their role properly, judged by other people. Teach them, carry them, or just leave. I don't understand why people make such a flush about this. I think you should expect the worst using group finder, and or roll with it, or leave. If you can't take the unexpectable, just do it the old way by FLG in zone chat.

Tan9oSuccka

I set my expectations quite low for the random dungeons, but man....

Some players are so incredibly bad, it's shocking.

NewBlacksmurf

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Just call the people who do that griefers and ban them for 1 day for it if reported for the 1st time. 3 day for 2nd and so on.

You can select as many roles you want but if you can't do the one the dungeon selects for yoy and lie, you get banned for griefing the other 3 player.

Fair and simple, would remove the problem almost instantly and its done for swearing and such in other games.

What if they are new and don't know how to play? I believe it's against the game's spirit. ZOS has locked the group dps track addon for that reason. I'm against punish players for leaving group just because they don't want to run with newbie, but I also against punish players just because they can't play their role properly, judged by other people. Teach them, carry them, or just leave. I don't understand why people make such a flush about this. I think you should expect the worst using group finder, and or roll with it, or leave. If you can't take the unexpectable, just do it the old way by FLG in zone chat.

Applause and agree even for console as today it's voice chat but in the future some sort of text chat lfg feature will be here this year

Wifeaggro13

jzholloway wrote: »

I know this is a common occurrence, but I used the group finder last night to run a "random" normal dungeon while waiting to run vWGT with my normal team. I got plugged into Spindleclutch - not too bad on normal at all - with a lvl 19, a lvl 45 and another VR16. Both the 19 and 45 where job slotted for more then one job - the lvl 19 was slotted for all three, tank, healer and dps (all of this was a joke - he followed, could not hold aggro, didn't do much damage and certainly did not heal), the 45 was slotted as a healer and dps - better on damage, but no healing to speak of. Only myself (slotted as a DPS - on my stamplar) and the other stamplar were slotted properly (both as DPS) - sadly, we also performed all of the heals, tanking and revives.
I know it would be difficult for zenimax to only allow people to slot jobs based on skills slotted or whatever - we all run some sort of healing usually, along with DPS, but what if ZOS only allowed us to slot one job? Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired - so I know this could still be an issue of time, but seriously, allowing for someone to slot for more then one job simply to play the duty finder is crap.
Yes, we completed the dungeon - but it was painful (and costly) since even the most sustained builds can't stay alive forever in a scaled VR16 normal dungeon and do all or share most of the DPS.

i suggest the following:
1 - Can only slot for one job
2 - After dungeon, each person can "star" someone who performed in their role (make this mean something so someone will actually play the role they slotted)
3- After dungeon, allow for a user feedback where if someone slots as a healer yet never heals, we can let the "game" know. Or at least let the person know by an auto mail or something. i realize some people slot as a healer and actually try to heal, constructive criticism of some sort can be useful for these people.
4 - Allow negative marks - if someone receives X amount of negative marks based upon job selection, that person cannot slot in that role for X amount of days for random dungeon finder. It would add the incentive to actually slot for your role. If someone is concerned about the wait, start a healer or a tank and learn how to do that too - its not like the rewards cannot be shared among characters.

I would assume on veteran difficulty this would be an even bigger issue - make the positive/negative marks mean more.

Its all DPS with some heals here and there. in all honesty once you have some CP and some gear the game disolves into a *** fest of AOEdps and running around like a chicken with your head cutoff.

jzholloway

An update - I decided to run a random normal again last night - however, I ran as my tank. It went a lot better, mainly because one of the DPS and I were both VR16 with a lot of CP. The other DPS was a level 25, he held his own, died a few times, but he played his role. The healer... wait, we didn't have one, he jumped in, saw it was CoA and bolted - sucks to be him/her.

Anyways, in this instance I came in as my tank, mainly so I knew that whatever dungeon we ran would at least have a tank. I assumed that we would also have DPS (even if that person slotted as a healer) and we did. My plan now is to only queue for random dungeons with my tank or healer. Sucks for my two DPS characters, but at least if I play with one of those two characters I know one job role will be fulfilled properly - maybe not effectively, but properly.

swirve

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

Your first statement just left me bemused...if the healer or tank dies someone picks them up. If they die the off tank or other healer carries on. Do you only run 1 tank and 1 healer in trials...wow...

Efficiency comes from clear roles a dps who has to back up healing has a dps loss unless they are a one button spammer. A healer can dps but their purpose is healing.

Glad i never played ff14 coils with you!

DenMoria

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I set my expectations quite low for the random dungeons, but man....

Some players are so incredibly bad, it's shocking.

I would deny it, but, I can't. I am one.

DocFrost72

OP, I can tell you three things.

Firstly, asking for "only one role" on the group finder will punish those that put in the work to make an incredibly flexible build, forcing them to choose one build and nullifying their work. But that is okay if it fixes the cheap ones, right?

This leads to point two. Nothing stops the same people from just role-ing as a tank anyway to get a group. Well, this ought to be fixed by an internal rating system?

Lastly, a rating system would be a player based rating ability that would take massive coding and lead to a variety of new issues, such as trolling with bad ratings (which could bar decent players simply because the rater wills it), locking activity to one skill set and role (which in dungeons such as Darkshade Vet is silly, as bosses such as Grobul and EG simply need a heals and 3 dps), and potentially worst of all, could end up alienating toons from roles if the rank was low enough (if it didn't do that, there would be little point, wouldn't there?).

While I feel your pain about bad pugs, the easy way around it is to take a premade group into ransoms. Quicker, easier, likely much more fun, and you KNOW those on their roles can do the job, which is what it sounds like you're doing.

TL:DR

Respectfully, it is a poor idea.

NewBlacksmurf

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

Your first statement just left me bemused...if the healer or tank dies someone picks them up. If they die the off tank or other healer carries on. Do you only run 1 tank and 1 healer in trials...wow...

Efficiency comes from clear roles a dps who has to back up healing has a dps loss unless they are a one button spammer. A healer can dps but their purpose is healing.

Glad i never played ff14 coils with you!

Please read the entire comment. ....there is a sentence where 4 of the 12 "may" not be exclusive to one role but no where does this imply 1 healer and 1 tank. I'm not sure why that assumption was made but in reply, no, we don't run trials with only 1 of each. It's just the opposite actually we run with a few and those who can swap in and out or play somewhat of a role with hybrid capabilities.

I'll add that efficiency does not come from being exclusive to one role. This mindset is the problem.
What leads to efficiency is when ppl are playing they way the perform best. Everyone does not fit into three categories. Period...ppl are different and it's why you always hear...I suck at this but I like this. They may not be good at what they like but they'll never be good at what they don't like while they can be great at a little of this and that where is supports the team goal.

We all can't be generals. Someone had to dig ditches.

swirve

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

Your first statement just left me bemused...if the healer or tank dies someone picks them up. If they die the off tank or other healer carries on. Do you only run 1 tank and 1 healer in trials...wow...

Efficiency comes from clear roles a dps who has to back up healing has a dps loss unless they are a one button spammer. A healer can dps but their purpose is healing.

Glad i never played ff14 coils with you!

Please read the entire comment. ....there is a sentence where 4 of the 12 "may" not be exclusive to one role but no where does this imply 1 healer and 1 tank. I'm not sure why that assumption was made but in reply, no, we don't run trials with only 1 of each. It's just the opposite actually we run with a few and those who can swap in and out or play somewhat of a role with hybrid capabilities.

I'll add that efficiency does not come from being exclusive to one role. This mindset is the problem.
What leads to efficiency is when ppl are playing they way the perform best. Everyone does not fit into three categories. Period...ppl are different and it's why you always hear...I suck at this but I like this. They may not be good at what they like but they'll never be good at what they don't like while they can be great at a little of this and that where is supports the team goal.

We all can't be generals. Someone had to dig ditches.

I dont think you understand. You can play all 3 toons but you should not be attempting to play multi roles in end game content. Healers have backbar dps, but only decent in control healers should be doing this. These healers are uncommon in pug content.

Also for one you will not be cp speccd unless you duck out of content everytime you switch.

That mindset that is a problem of people thinking they are better than they are and playing selfishly in group content.

A dps wannabe healer can actually mess up pure healers rotations...so on and so forth.

For solo content knock yourself out and play a happy rainbow build all you like

NewBlacksmurf

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

Your first statement just left me bemused...if the healer or tank dies someone picks them up. If they die the off tank or other healer carries on. Do you only run 1 tank and 1 healer in trials...wow...

Efficiency comes from clear roles a dps who has to back up healing has a dps loss unless they are a one button spammer. A healer can dps but their purpose is healing.

Glad i never played ff14 coils with you!

Please read the entire comment. ....there is a sentence where 4 of the 12 "may" not be exclusive to one role but no where does this imply 1 healer and 1 tank. I'm not sure why that assumption was made but in reply, no, we don't run trials with only 1 of each. It's just the opposite actually we run with a few and those who can swap in and out or play somewhat of a role with hybrid capabilities.

I'll add that efficiency does not come from being exclusive to one role. This mindset is the problem.
What leads to efficiency is when ppl are playing they way the perform best. Everyone does not fit into three categories. Period...ppl are different and it's why you always hear...I suck at this but I like this. They may not be good at what they like but they'll never be good at what they don't like while they can be great at a little of this and that where is supports the team goal.

We all can't be generals. Someone had to dig ditches.

I dont think you understand. You can play all 3 toons but you should not be attempting to play multi roles in end game content. Healers have backbar dps, but only decent in control healers should be doing this. These healers are uncommon in pug content.

Also for one you will not be cp speccd unless you duck out of content everytime you switch.

That mindset that is a problem of people thinking they are better than they are and playing selfishly in group content.

A dps wannabe healer can actually mess up pure healers rotations...so on and so forth.

For solo content knock yourself out and play a happy rainbow build all you like

says who?
ZOS' site says otherwise.

I'm pointing out that this is your opinion and while its fine for you, that opinion is not fact so it shouldn't be a factor in determining if another player is able to play in a group regardless of a role label set by the system. It should only be a factor for you deciding to play in that group....if its not your desire...its cool to leave but not so cool to demand that another player meet your standards while playing the game within its design allowances.

DocFrost72

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

Your first statement just left me bemused...if the healer or tank dies someone picks them up. If they die the off tank or other healer carries on. Do you only run 1 tank and 1 healer in trials...wow...

Efficiency comes from clear roles a dps who has to back up healing has a dps loss unless they are a one button spammer. A healer can dps but their purpose is healing.

Glad i never played ff14 coils with you!

Please read the entire comment. ....there is a sentence where 4 of the 12 "may" not be exclusive to one role but no where does this imply 1 healer and 1 tank. I'm not sure why that assumption was made but in reply, no, we don't run trials with only 1 of each. It's just the opposite actually we run with a few and those who can swap in and out or play somewhat of a role with hybrid capabilities.

I'll add that efficiency does not come from being exclusive to one role. This mindset is the problem.
What leads to efficiency is when ppl are playing they way the perform best. Everyone does not fit into three categories. Period...ppl are different and it's why you always hear...I suck at this but I like this. They may not be good at what they like but they'll never be good at what they don't like while they can be great at a little of this and that where is supports the team goal.

We all can't be generals. Someone had to dig ditches.

I dont think you understand. You can play all 3 toons but you should not be attempting to play multi roles in end game content. Healers have backbar dps, but only decent in control healers should be doing this. These healers are uncommon in pug content.

Also for one you will not be cp speccd unless you duck out of content everytime you switch.

That mindset that is a problem of people thinking they are better than they are and playing selfishly in group content.

A dps wannabe healer can actually mess up pure healers rotations...so on and so forth.

For solo content knock yourself out and play a happy rainbow build all you like

No one is saying "look at my awesome build where I pull 10k dps, taunt the boss, and heal us all!" What people are saying (correctly) is that with one toon I can do ANY role, by switching gear and skills on the same character.

Bolded to help clarification.

My DPS throws on heavy armor and picks up a sword and board, and has tested just fine for veteran dungeons. For a PUG running a regular dungeon or even vet dungeon, a competent player can DPS, heal, or tank at will as long as they are a decent player, and have a few seconds to switch out.

I can relate to being skeptical but after trying it I have to say it is not only fun, but highly effective in terms of character worth and helps people get very experienced in a wide variety of situations.

NewBlacksmurf

DocFrost72 wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

@NewBlacksmurf

Hybrids work for better than avr players in less challenging content and those who dont do trials

In actual practice for two years I believe that statement is false.
One thing we all know if we do trials norm or vet....someone is going to die.
If it's the healer or tank....and you all decide to be exclusive roles, then you wipe when something goes wrong and have little possibility to recover by comparison.

Excuse the extremity of this next statement but that is the most asinine logic.

Games like WoW for instance or DAoC which I played for years where roles were locked.....those communities begged for role swaps and other options during game-play.

Back to ESO.....as a standard for successful trials in current content. My guild requires all healers to use a healing staff and destruction staff. Why- cause the shields, debuffs, lowering resistances or NPC health is critical.

Also as a tank you are required to have executes or gap closers
As dps you're required to be able to off heal so while all of this doesn't apply to every single player....in a group of 12, at least 4 of the 12 are not exclusive to their roles.

If you're doing it another way and you're successful, there's nothing wrong with that cause it works but I'd bet if that's the case, those party members are min/max and very experienced players. There is a very low likelihood that the exclusive role which does require a lot of mix/max builds, is readily available to us all.

That's the point. We can strive but I know what works best and that's when ppl can make mistakes, be picked up and the encounters continue without wipes cause I can't wipe but so many times then I have to start over.

Your first statement just left me bemused...if the healer or tank dies someone picks them up. If they die the off tank or other healer carries on. Do you only run 1 tank and 1 healer in trials...wow...

Efficiency comes from clear roles a dps who has to back up healing has a dps loss unless they are a one button spammer. A healer can dps but their purpose is healing.

Glad i never played ff14 coils with you!

Please read the entire comment. ....there is a sentence where 4 of the 12 "may" not be exclusive to one role but no where does this imply 1 healer and 1 tank. I'm not sure why that assumption was made but in reply, no, we don't run trials with only 1 of each. It's just the opposite actually we run with a few and those who can swap in and out or play somewhat of a role with hybrid capabilities.

I'll add that efficiency does not come from being exclusive to one role. This mindset is the problem.
What leads to efficiency is when ppl are playing they way the perform best. Everyone does not fit into three categories. Period...ppl are different and it's why you always hear...I suck at this but I like this. They may not be good at what they like but they'll never be good at what they don't like while they can be great at a little of this and that where is supports the team goal.

We all can't be generals. Someone had to dig ditches.

I dont think you understand. You can play all 3 toons but you should not be attempting to play multi roles in end game content. Healers have backbar dps, but only decent in control healers should be doing this. These healers are uncommon in pug content.

Also for one you will not be cp speccd unless you duck out of content everytime you switch.

That mindset that is a problem of people thinking they are better than they are and playing selfishly in group content.

A dps wannabe healer can actually mess up pure healers rotations...so on and so forth.

For solo content knock yourself out and play a happy rainbow build all you like

No one is saying "look at my awesome build where I pull 10k dps, taunt the boss, and heal us all!" What people are saying (correctly) is that with one toon I can do ANY role, by switching gear and skills on the same character.

Bolded to help clarification.

My DPS throws on heavy armor and picks up a sword and board, and has tested just fine for veteran dungeons. For a PUG running a regular dungeon or even vet dungeon, a competent player can DPS, heal, or tank at will as long as they are a decent player, and have a few seconds to switch out.

I can relate to being skeptical but after trying it I have to say it is not only fun, but highly effective in terms of character worth and helps people get very experienced in a wide variety of situations.

well clarified thanks

Oh_Skrivva

I don't mind running with pugs that are new or inexperienced.have yet to leave a group because of it. I am more then happy to help people learn/run dungeons. Only time I left a group is because they were being rude/jack a**. But this isn't what the discussion is about. It's about people slotting a role just to expedite the Lfg tool. Maybe if we implemented a point system where you slot 1 role first. If you complete the dungeon then you get hidden points added to your toon. If you slot a different role and complete dungeon you get points added to that role. The more points you have in the role you selected for the lfg. The faster you get queued for dungeon maybe. Just a thought.

exeeter702

swirve wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

Totally missing the point of the OP - its not about the ability to switch roles or speed run dungeons or wipe the floor with anything - it is simply being able to do what you say you can do in the group finder. If you can't DPS, don't select it, if you can't heal, don't select it, if you can't tank, don't select it - unless of course you are new and learning, then at the beginning of the dungeon, in group text or chat (PC or console) make it known, then at least everyone knows you may need advice and wont get pissed when you run around not doing anything productive at all. If people don't pay attention to group chat or text, that is on them, but I always at least check group chat when I run a dungeon with PUGS.

You are missing the point he says he can effectively switch and multislot so ive said prove it...prove he can do what he says in group finder..thst cleae enough for you.

How the hell does that even remotely have anything to do with this thread?

exeeter702

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

NewBlacksmurf

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Dubhliam

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

This is a wonderful idea.
There should be three solo instances where your ability to tank/heal/damage should be put to test. You are put into a dungeon with a simple layout, two rounds of mobs spawn after which a boss spawns. You get 2 NPC followers that fill in the other two roles. After you successfully complete an instance, you get the ability to queue for that role.
Much as crafters have to "prove their crafting ability" before they can start getting writs.

Instance 1: Tank trial
Mobs are immune to your attacks. Your goal is to CC and take as much aggro you can, preventing the NPC followers from dying. Boss should have some interruptable channels and some heavy hitting conal attacks.

Instance 2: Heal trial
Mobs take 80% less damage from your attacks. You never get aggro As long as the tank is alive, you don't get aggro, the goal is to keep your NPC followers alive. This boss spits stackable DoTs, making status removal helpful. Also, buffing the group damage helps with the execute phase, where the healer is under greater pressure for every second the boss is alive.

Instance 3: Damage trial
You don't get aggroAs long as tank is alive, you don't get aggro. Mobs have a lot of Area Effect skills, some casting Interrupt-me-or-be-dead mobs and a boss that spawns a lot of red don't-stand-in-me-stupid-or-get-one-shotted circles. Oh yeah, did I mention enrage? He gets enraged.
I'm thinking somewhere around 10k dps should get you through this dps race.

Add some dialogue with your NPC followers that explain your role and tactics before you start, and this should be a nice setup for the introduction to the holy trinity.[/quote]

NewBlacksmurf

Dubhliam wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

This is a wonderful idea.
There should be three solo instances where your ability to tank/heal/damage should be put to test. You are put into a dungeon with a simple layout, two rounds of mobs spawn after which a boss spawns. You get 2 NPC followers that fill in the other two roles. After you successfully complete an instance, you get the ability to queue for that role.
Much as crafters have to "prove their crafting ability" before they can start getting writs.

Instance 1: Tank trial
Mobs are immune to your attacks. Your goal is to CC and take as much aggro you can, preventing the NPC followers from dying. Boss should have some interruptable channels and some heavy hitting conal attacks.

Instance 2: Heal trial
Mobs take 80% less damage from your attacks. You never get aggro, the goal is to keep your NPC followers alive. This boss spits stackable DoTs, making status removal helpful. Also, buffing the group damage helps with the execute phase, where the healer is under greater pressure for every second the boss is alive.

Instance 3: Damage trial
You don't get aggro. Mobs have a lot of Area Effect skills, some casting Interrupt-me-or-be-dead mobs and a boss that spawns a lot of red don't-stand-in-me-stupid-or-get-one-shotted circles. Oh yeah, did I mention enrage? He gets enraged.
I'm thinking somewhere around 10k dps should get you through this dps race.

Add some dialogue with your NPC followers that explain your role and tactics before you start, and this should be a nice setup for the introduction to the holy trinity.

No....sorry no one needs to prove anything to play with others. We each get to choose to play or leave and that's O K. We can be good, great, awesome bad and even terrible.

Make sure to read the post above its About roles and is a good read

Dubhliam

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

This is a wonderful idea.
There should be three solo instances where your ability to tank/heal/damage should be put to test. You are put into a dungeon with a simple layout, two rounds of mobs spawn after which a boss spawns. You get 2 NPC followers that fill in the other two roles. After you successfully complete an instance, you get the ability to queue for that role.
Much as crafters have to "prove their crafting ability" before they can start getting writs.

Instance 1: Tank trial
Mobs are immune to your attacks. Your goal is to CC and take as much aggro you can, preventing the NPC followers from dying. Boss should have some interruptable channels and some heavy hitting conal attacks.

Instance 2: Heal trial
Mobs take 80% less damage from your attacks. You never get aggro, the goal is to keep your NPC followers alive. This boss spits stackable DoTs, making status removal helpful. Also, buffing the group damage helps with the execute phase, where the healer is under greater pressure for every second the boss is alive.

Instance 3: Damage trial
You don't get aggro. Mobs have a lot of Area Effect skills, some casting Interrupt-me-or-be-dead mobs and a boss that spawns a lot of red don't-stand-in-me-stupid-or-get-one-shotted circles. Oh yeah, did I mention enrage? He gets enraged.
I'm thinking somewhere around 10k dps should get you through this dps race.

Add some dialogue with your NPC followers that explain your role and tactics before you start, and this should be a nice setup for the introduction to the holy trinity.

No....sorry no one needs to prove anything to play with others. We each get to choose to play or leave and that's O K. We can be good, great, awesome bad and even terrible.

Make sure to read the post above its About roles and is a good read

Sorry, the only thing I read from your ramblings is:

you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group

Don't know about other players on the forum, but I highly disagree with that.

If I know my role well, and I queue for that role, why should I be punished if I can't carry multiple people through a dungeon?

NewBlacksmurf

Dubhliam wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

This is a wonderful idea.
There should be three solo instances where your ability to tank/heal/damage should be put to test. You are put into a dungeon with a simple layout, two rounds of mobs spawn after which a boss spawns. You get 2 NPC followers that fill in the other two roles. After you successfully complete an instance, you get the ability to queue for that role.
Much as crafters have to "prove their crafting ability" before they can start getting writs.

Instance 1: Tank trial
Mobs are immune to your attacks. Your goal is to CC and take as much aggro you can, preventing the NPC followers from dying. Boss should have some interruptable channels and some heavy hitting conal attacks.

Instance 2: Heal trial
Mobs take 80% less damage from your attacks. You never get aggro, the goal is to keep your NPC followers alive. This boss spits stackable DoTs, making status removal helpful. Also, buffing the group damage helps with the execute phase, where the healer is under greater pressure for every second the boss is alive.

Instance 3: Damage trial
You don't get aggro. Mobs have a lot of Area Effect skills, some casting Interrupt-me-or-be-dead mobs and a boss that spawns a lot of red don't-stand-in-me-stupid-or-get-one-shotted circles. Oh yeah, did I mention enrage? He gets enraged.
I'm thinking somewhere around 10k dps should get you through this dps race.

Add some dialogue with your NPC followers that explain your role and tactics before you start, and this should be a nice setup for the introduction to the holy trinity.

No....sorry no one needs to prove anything to play with others. We each get to choose to play or leave and that's O K. We can be good, great, awesome bad and even terrible.

Make sure to read the post above its About roles and is a good read

Sorry, the only thing I read from your ramblings is:

you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group

Don't know about other players on the forum, but I highly disagree with that.

If I know my role well, and I queue for that role, why should I be punished if I can't carry multiple people through a dungeon?

Rambling....it's the ZOS website.

CaptainBeerDude

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Well I just had my first ever experience with a guy que in as tank, but be a low vet rank dps. It actually turned out fun and cute, as he was sneaking and hiding behind barrels and crates

I have to admit, I was prepared to kick anyone out that got into our group, who didn't deliver on his role ...however, v3 with close to 30k hp and hiding like that was just adorable

Holy Jeebus. 30k at v3! My v16 only hits around 31k with food. my 30ish tank/heals can manage around 28k when scaled. Also, neither of them need to hide. Did his HP stacking remove all of his mitigation?

notimetocare

jzholloway wrote: »

I know this is a common occurrence, but I used the group finder last night to run a "random" normal dungeon while waiting to run vWGT with my normal team. I got plugged into Spindleclutch - not too bad on normal at all - with a lvl 19, a lvl 45 and another VR16. Both the 19 and 45 where job slotted for more then one job - the lvl 19 was slotted for all three, tank, healer and dps (all of this was a joke - he followed, could not hold aggro, didn't do much damage and certainly did not heal), the 45 was slotted as a healer and dps - better on damage, but no healing to speak of. Only myself (slotted as a DPS - on my stamplar) and the other stamplar were slotted properly (both as DPS) - sadly, we also performed all of the heals, tanking and revives.
I know it would be difficult for zenimax to only allow people to slot jobs based on skills slotted or whatever - we all run some sort of healing usually, along with DPS, but what if ZOS only allowed us to slot one job? Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired - so I know this could still be an issue of time, but seriously, allowing for someone to slot for more then one job simply to play the duty finder is crap.
Yes, we completed the dungeon - but it was painful (and costly) since even the most sustained builds can't stay alive forever in a scaled VR16 normal dungeon and do all or share most of the DPS.

i suggest the following:
1 - Can only slot for one job
2 - After dungeon, each person can "star" someone who performed in their role (make this mean something so someone will actually play the role they slotted)
3- After dungeon, allow for a user feedback where if someone slots as a healer yet never heals, we can let the "game" know. Or at least let the person know by an auto mail or something. i realize some people slot as a healer and actually try to heal, constructive criticism of some sort can be useful for these people.
4 - Allow negative marks - if someone receives X amount of negative marks based upon job selection, that person cannot slot in that role for X amount of days for random dungeon finder. It would add the incentive to actually slot for your role. If someone is concerned about the wait, start a healer or a tank and learn how to do that too - its not like the rewards cannot be shared among characters.

I would assume on veteran difficulty this would be an even bigger issue - make the positive/negative marks mean more.

1- Sure, not the best but it isnt a bad thing to do.
2 - This isnt a bad thing, but it goes in line with your next choices...
3- No...
4- Ducking oblivion no... This is a massively bad idea. This is asking for a system of harassment and abuse.

It is very bad to set up a system where people are told how other players think they are doing. There is a chat feature already in which people can voice their displeasure, but it should never be some system of lasting impact because people are the worst in cases of anonymity. "But this is a system to help people learn and give feedback" And trolls will be trolls.

CaptainBeerDude

So my new toon queues as tank and heals. Not the absolute best at either, but competent. I ended up getting in as heals last night. There was 3 skirt wearing, stick wielding dps/heals in there. I switched to my front bar (yes, I don't even have to re gear) and tanked it. This play style wouldn't be as rewarding with single role selections, and you will miss out on some capable hybrid spec characters. I am all for a mini solo dungeon that explains basics of roles and gave everyone some basic expectations from their own builds to perform specific roles.

disintegr8

I go along with the mini solo dungeon idea in so much as it can teach a new player what their role is. Apart from looking up the internet, a console beginner player does not get that much information and assistance from the game itself as to what to do or what is expected of them and their role.

My first character reached level 49 without crafting or buying any weapons or armour, only having mismatched gear I'd picked up through the course of the game and had only run 1 group dungeon. When I did that first group dungeon I did not know what to expect but I was picked up outside the dungeon entrance so was not putting up any pretences. I did not even know what the symbols for tank/healer/dps in the group settings meant.

BUT - I did go into group chat, talked to and listened to the other players, let them know I had never done it before and we completed it TOGETHER. So many players from all levels go into a dungeon and don't communicate, from V16's who just think it should all be so easy that we don't need to, to level 11's who may not even know how to.

exeeter702

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Why on earth did you even bother with all that? The majority of the people here have been playing this genre for *** years now, this was offensively redundant and unnecessary.

I'm well aware of what ZoS aimed to achieve with therr game and skill system. It allows flexibility period.

The point is, having back up gear and skills would swap in and out depending on what happens in a group does not make you a hybrid, it simply means you are switching to another build.

In the most vegetable brain content, yes a mage dps have a full back bar for healing, but for content that means anything at end game no 5 bar loadout is ever going to be enough by itself.

The point is, it's a catch 22, new players likely don't have the knowledge in the "easy" dungeons to make use of a versatile build or perhaps lack the resources / skill points. Rigid strict roles have been pushed in this game for a while, and the sooner new players understand that, the better and more flexible they will be when they graduate to more difficult content.

Multiple available builds does not make you a hybrid.

Role education needs to be more rigid and focusd in the leveling dungeon time for new players.

Everyone discussing this topic is WELL aware of what the three roles do, please do not patronize me or anyone else with your long winded explanation.

Elsterchen

Honestly, i do not group often and I only chose a role bc I had to... .
Since I do not group regularly, or engage in trials I do not have a special setup for any group situation.
Thus, the moment I am picked up by a group I am neither: not tank, not healer nor DD. I usually solo and therfore do a bit of all. So:

Instead of some punishment I would prefer a 4th role, named: "other".

I am good at soloing bc I am an all-rounder... but obviously, i do not match up to specialist. A clear sign of this would be the indication that my build is different from a specialized DD, tank or healer. In fact, many players carter a role that can be defined as "other"-than a pure single purpose role. In my opinion there isn't anything wrong with that too... why not go and do group content with "not"-specialists? I did it, not often but when I engaged it was fun. Giving everyone the chance of avoiding an only partly-honest answer when choosing roles might help elitists to understand, that not everyone is min/maxing (or has fun in that) and might decrease the harrassment and discouragement some players experience.

Dredlord

swirve wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

I know i don't speak for him but....

Take your kudos and well, you know....

NewBlacksmurf

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Actually by that logic all magicka builds are by defualt hybrids, since healing is tied directly to the stat. In general terms hybrids don't really work in any other way with stam or health.

Being magicka and having skills spent on certain abilities and switching out based on role does not make you a hybrid. Filling 2 roles simultaneously with one build is what would make you a hybrid. And to make those work in anything beyond basic leveling dungeons requires everyone to be on the same page.

The issue is that this game for the longest time refused to acknowledge that it adheres to a trinity system for group content. What happens is you have new players who are unaware, and select tank and dps roles becuaelse in their head from their leveling experience it's "hey! I'm a plate wearing melee warrior that uses a sword and shield with a bow for back up! I'm durable because I'm up close so I'm tanky but also a damage dealer!" They select both roles and proceeded to fail.

ZoS has done a poor job conveying the responsibilitis of specific roles to players whom this may be thier first mmo and don't really understand that group dynamic and get hung up on the marketing of "play however you want!". I have experienced this first hand personally and via the group finder time and time again.

It needs to be more clear and concise. Personally, maybe they can prohibit the group finder role selection until you clear a very simple trial quest specific to each role so players understand just what is expected of them.

Interesting....you might want to read ZOS' intent, design and what they are telling customers.


The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

Why on earth did you even bother with all that? The majority of the people here have been playing this genre for *** years now, this was offensively redundant and unnecessary.

I'm well aware of what ZoS aimed to achieve with therr game and skill system. It allows flexibility period.

The point is, having back up gear and skills would swap in and out depending on what happens in a group does not make you a hybrid, it simply means you are switching to another build.

In the most vegetable brain content, yes a mage dps have a full back bar for healing, but for content that means anything at end game no 5 bar loadout is ever going to be enough by itself.

The point is, it's a catch 22, new players likely don't have the knowledge in the "easy" dungeons to make use of a versatile build or perhaps lack the resources / skill points. Rigid strict roles have been pushed in this game for a while, and the sooner new players understand that, the better and more flexible they will be when they graduate to more difficult content.

Multiple available builds does not make you a hybrid.

Role education needs to be more rigid and focusd in the leveling dungeon time for new players.

Everyone discussing this topic is WELL aware of what the three roles do, please do not patronize me or anyone else with your long winded explanation.

Based on your comments your either skimming or didn't bother to read it. It's not rude or patronizing anyone...it's that your applying a traditional trinity mindset to a game that doesn't work that way. While it allows you to play it like a traditional trinity that's not the best or only way so while you may say you're well aware of the roles, I'm reading you are well aware of those roles in context to other MMO type games and holding that logic and forcing it to apply here.

Let me make it plain.....I'm not swapping armor, stats or gear...just skills.
It's built that way