Group finder & Job Roles

Jaeysa

jzholloway wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

I don't think it's too much to ask for a healer to be able to heal(have spent skill points in some healing skills) or a tank to have a taunt. That being said, getting the randoms to -use- said skills isn't something ZoS can do.

I agree - so then it has to be on us, yet there really isn't anything we can do about it.

Pretty much, other than leave group or remove the player(if they don't have lead).

swirve

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

No proof is needed. Nobody cares about proving anything to you. Anyone who has run with @wayfarerx knows he's good and can easily swap roles or classes, and can carry people who don't know what they're doing. Why would anyone care whether you believe that?

Clearly you care if you feel the need to white knight for your bff.

jzholloway

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

It's the number one thing I really liked about Final Fantasy 14 - they do this.

jzholloway

Jaeysa wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

I don't think it's too much to ask for a healer to be able to heal(have spent skill points in some healing skills) or a tank to have a taunt. That being said, getting the randoms to -use- said skills isn't something ZoS can do.

I agree - so then it has to be on us, yet there really isn't anything we can do about it.

Pretty much, other than leave group or remove the player(if they don't have lead).

I never seem to get lead... and after spending 20 min in the group finder (when on DPS) I'd rather not spend another 20 min just to take 30 min completing a dungeon that should take 15

swirve

jzholloway wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

Totally missing the point of the OP - its not about the ability to switch roles or speed run dungeons or wipe the floor with anything - it is simply being able to do what you say you can do in the group finder. If you can't DPS, don't select it, if you can't heal, don't select it, if you can't tank, don't select it - unless of course you are new and learning, then at the beginning of the dungeon, in group text or chat (PC or console) make it known, then at least everyone knows you may need advice and wont get pissed when you run around not doing anything productive at all. If people don't pay attention to group chat or text, that is on them, but I always at least check group chat when I run a dungeon with PUGS.

You are missing the point he says he can effectively switch and multislot so ive said prove it...prove he can do what he says in group finder..thst cleae enough for you.

DenMoria

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

Dromede

Every time there's a thread like that, people start shuffling the word 'elitist' around. It's not about elitism!! If you get assigned to a tank who is really not capable of anything, and a double role healer/dps who doesn't even have a resto stuff equiped - you're screwed even in normal dungeon.

Me and my friend were doing Volenfell couple days ago, both of us straight up DPS, level 35ish. Obviously, not all skills unlocked, not all passives are used yet. Not the greatest dps, but the best you can have in this situation.

Half way through the trash fights after dying about 5 times i had to yell 'where are the heals' in the chat. And the person was like 'let me slot resto staff'. Half way through the dungeon!!

No matter how you look at it, a player needs sword&board to tank and a resto staff to heal. May be it makes sense to scan player's inventory to see if they at least have them before letting them pick roles? I know it's an easy restriction to pass by, but something needs to be done, honestly...

jzholloway

@denmoria Yeah, that's the flip side - if you on NA on PS4 and ever want to heal, let me know! I don't think we would bash you, but I can see where people who don't know ESO very well might, thinking a healer only heals.

Regarding grouping - to me at least it has gotten worse, and I think its mainly because of the waiting times.

jzholloway

Dromede wrote: »

Every time there's a thread like that, peolle start shuffling the word 'elitist' around. It's not about elitism!! If you get assigned to a tank who is really not capable of anything, and a double role healer/dps who doesn't even have a resto stuff equiped - you're screwed even in normal dungeon.

Me and my friend were doing Volenfell couple days ago, both of us straight up DPS, level 35ish. Obviously, not all skills unlocked, not all passives are used yet. Not the greatest dps, but the best you can have in this situation.

Half way through the trash fights after dying about 5 times i had to yell 'where are the heals' in the chat. And the person was like 'let me slot resto staff'. Half way through the dungeon!!

No matter how you look at it, a player needs sword&board to tank and a resto staff to heal. May be it makes sense to scan player's inventory to see if they at least have them before letting them pick roles? Iknow it's an easy reatriction to pass by, but something needs to be done, honestly...

I would hit agree 100 times if I could

Jaeysa

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

I've seen a few groups pick on the healer for that sort of thing, but not most by a long shot. As for who defines what each role should be doing? Frankly, I just care about the basics, especially when running with randoms. A healer should heal. DPS is nice but optional. A dps should do some damage. Side heals/buffs are nice but optional. A tank should keep agro on the bosses and some of the mobs, and not die every two seconds. DPS/heals are nice but optional.

I think what OP was complaining about was people who don't even try and do the basics. People who queue as heals or tank for a fast queue and then just want to dps(or autofollow). That's different then people expecting randoms(level 10 to V16 and varied in experience from beta tester to brand new player) to act like regular groups. Not everyone is fantastic at the game. That's ok. I just want people to put forth a little effort.

jzholloway

Jaeysa wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

I've seen a few groups pick on the healer for that sort of thing, but not most by a long shot. As for who defines what each role should be doing? Frankly, I just care about the basics, especially when running with randoms. A healer should heal. DPS is nice but optional. A dps should do some damage. Side heals/buffs are nice but optional. A tank should keep agro on the bosses and some of the mobs, and not die every two seconds. DPS/heals are nice but optional.

I think what OP was complaining about was people who don't even try and do the basics. People who queue as heals or tank for a fast queue and then just want to dps(or autofollow). That's different then people expecting randoms(level 10 to V16 and varied in experience from beta tester to brand new player) to act like regular groups. Not everyone is fantastic at the game. That's ok. I just want people to put forth a little effort.

Yep, you said it better then I did haha

UrQuan

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

Yes! This would be great! Especially if the training missions were repeatable. I know that when I'm trying a new tanking or healing setup, I'd love a chance to try it out without possibly subjecting other people to a bad build that just isn't going to work...

Also the DPS not rezzing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If I'm the healer sure I can go and rez the dead guy, but if I do that I'm not healing during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die. If I'm the tank sure I can go and rez the dead guy, and I'll probably have no issue staying alive while doing it, but I'm not taunting or applying CC during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm tanking or healing and there's a good reason why I need to be the one to rez, I'll do it. Heck, even if there isn't a good reason for it but nobody else is doing it, I'll still do it. But the majority of the time it just makes so much more sense for the DPS to have that duty, and so many DPS don't seem to understand that. If I'm doing a dungeon as a DPS you'd better believe I always consider myself to be on rez duty.

DenMoria

Dromede wrote: »

Every time there's a thread like that, peolle start shuffling the word 'elitist' around. It's not about elitism!! If you get assigned to a tank who is really not capable of anything, and a double role healer/dps who doesn't even have a resto stuff equiped - you're screwed even in normal dungeon.

Me and my friend were doing Volenfell couple days ago, both of us straight up DPS, level 35ish. Obviously, not all skills unlocked, not all passives are used yet. Not the greatest dps, but the best you can have in this situation.

Half way through the trash fights after dying about 5 times i had to yell 'where are the heals' in the chat. And the person was like 'let me slot resto staff'. Half way through the dungeon!!

No matter how you look at it, a player needs sword&board to tank and a resto staff to heal. May be it makes sense to scan player's inventory to see if they at least have them before letting them pick roles? Iknow it's an easy reatriction to pass by, but something needs to be done, honestly...

Okay. Have to agree. No resto staff and you're a healer AND you're not even healing? What on earth were they thinking/doing?

Jaeysa

UrQuan wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

Yes! This would be great! Especially if the training missions were repeatable. I know that when I'm trying a new tanking or healing setup, I'd love a chance to try it out without possibly subjecting other people to a bad build that just isn't going to work...

Also the DPS not rezzing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If I'm the healer sure I can go and rez the dead guy, but if I do that I'm not healing during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die. If I'm the tank sure I can go and rez the dead guy, and I'll probably have no issue staying alive while doing it, but I'm not taunting or applying CC during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm tanking or healing and there's a good reason why I need to be the one to rez, I'll do it. Heck, even if there isn't a good reason for it but nobody else is doing it, I'll still do it. But the majority of the time it just makes so much more sense for the DPS to have that duty, and so many DPS don't seem to understand that. If I'm doing a dungeon as a DPS you'd better believe I always consider myself to be on rez duty.

As a dps, I agree. I'd rather rez someone than have to off-heal(which I'm not specced for anymore).

jzholloway

UrQuan wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

Yes! This would be great! Especially if the training missions were repeatable. I know that when I'm trying a new tanking or healing setup, I'd love a chance to try it out without possibly subjecting other people to a bad build that just isn't going to work...

Also the DPS not rezzing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If I'm the healer sure I can go and rez the dead guy, but if I do that I'm not healing during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die. If I'm the tank sure I can go and rez the dead guy, and I'll probably have no issue staying alive while doing it, but I'm not taunting or applying CC during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm tanking or healing and there's a good reason why I need to be the one to rez, I'll do it. Heck, even if there isn't a good reason for it but nobody else is doing it, I'll still do it. But the majority of the time it just makes so much more sense for the DPS to have that duty, and so many DPS don't seem to understand that. If I'm doing a dungeon as a DPS you'd better believe I always consider myself to be on rez duty.

If the rez thing is in relation to something I said - i probably said it wrong. As a DPS, I don't mind rezzing at all, but we were the only ones doing it. In regards to that, the healer wasn't healing, and the tank wasn't tanking - they were either dying or kiting everything in a circle (in retrospect, it was kind of funny looking). Then they would die, then we would rez, then they would die, etc. We finally stopped rezzing them, each taking turns toi do DPS and cast vigor - back and forth.

jzholloway

DenMoria wrote: »

Dromede wrote: »

Every time there's a thread like that, peolle start shuffling the word 'elitist' around. It's not about elitism!! If you get assigned to a tank who is really not capable of anything, and a double role healer/dps who doesn't even have a resto stuff equiped - you're screwed even in normal dungeon.

Me and my friend were doing Volenfell couple days ago, both of us straight up DPS, level 35ish. Obviously, not all skills unlocked, not all passives are used yet. Not the greatest dps, but the best you can have in this situation.

Half way through the trash fights after dying about 5 times i had to yell 'where are the heals' in the chat. And the person was like 'let me slot resto staff'. Half way through the dungeon!!

No matter how you look at it, a player needs sword&board to tank and a resto staff to heal. May be it makes sense to scan player's inventory to see if they at least have them before letting them pick roles? Iknow it's an easy reatriction to pass by, but something needs to be done, honestly...

Okay. Have to agree. No resto staff and you're a healer AND you're not even healing? What on earth were they thinking/doing?

probably wanting to be carried - or simply wanting to get in a dungeon quicker, so they slotted healer.

wayfarerx

jzholloway wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

Yes! This would be great! Especially if the training missions were repeatable. I know that when I'm trying a new tanking or healing setup, I'd love a chance to try it out without possibly subjecting other people to a bad build that just isn't going to work...

Also the DPS not rezzing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If I'm the healer sure I can go and rez the dead guy, but if I do that I'm not healing during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die. If I'm the tank sure I can go and rez the dead guy, and I'll probably have no issue staying alive while doing it, but I'm not taunting or applying CC during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm tanking or healing and there's a good reason why I need to be the one to rez, I'll do it. Heck, even if there isn't a good reason for it but nobody else is doing it, I'll still do it. But the majority of the time it just makes so much more sense for the DPS to have that duty, and so many DPS don't seem to understand that. If I'm doing a dungeon as a DPS you'd better believe I always consider myself to be on rez duty.

If the rez thing is in relation to something I said - i probably said it wrong. As a DPS, I don't mind rezzing at all, but we were the only ones doing it. In regards to that, the healer wasn't healing, and the tank wasn't tanking - they were either dying or kiting everything in a circle (in retrospect, it was kind of funny looking). Then they would die, then we would rez, then they would die, etc. We finally stopped rezzing them, each taking turns toi do DPS and cast vigor - back and forth.

I only brought up DPS rezzing because it's their one job besides killing things and many DPS I come across don't seem to understand that having the tank stop tanking or the healer stop healing is a recipe for disaster. If I have a group member that dies over and over I'd stop rezzing them at some point at well and just finish the fight.

UrQuan

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

If you were on PC/NA I'd say you should come and run some dungeons with my guild. We follow the same philosophy as @jzholloway - it's not about being great at your role (although we've got some really good players who are very experienced in their roles), it's about being willing to try to do your role and being willing to switch stuff up if things aren't working. Also we tend to be very patient and supportive when people are inexperienced... We're all about actually having fun when we're doing dungeons, rather than being super elite or the best at everything.

i3ig_Gun

No doubt something needs to be improved about the players rolls in the dungeon...

everyone has had the "tank" that can't tank

or the "heals" that can't/don't heal

but the DPS that have no idea how to DPS just need some research done for their character builds so they can get the optimal amount of DPS to contribute to their group.

The big problem with a system with no checks/balances is people will abuse the system to get what they want as quickly as they can, regardless of who else they *** off that has to carry them through that dungeon...

NewBlacksmurf

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

jzholloway

UrQuan wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

If you were on PC/NA I'd say you should come and run some dungeons with my guild. We follow the same philosophy as @jzholloway - it's not about being great at your role (although we've got some really good players who are very experienced in their roles), it's about being willing to try to do your role and being willing to switch stuff up if things aren't working. Also we tend to be very patient and supportive when people are inexperienced... We're all about actually having fun when we're doing dungeons, rather than being super elite or the best at everything.

same here with the group I run with

UrQuan

wayfarerx wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

Yes! This would be great! Especially if the training missions were repeatable. I know that when I'm trying a new tanking or healing setup, I'd love a chance to try it out without possibly subjecting other people to a bad build that just isn't going to work...

Also the DPS not rezzing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If I'm the healer sure I can go and rez the dead guy, but if I do that I'm not healing during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die. If I'm the tank sure I can go and rez the dead guy, and I'll probably have no issue staying alive while doing it, but I'm not taunting or applying CC during that time, so there's a decent chance other people are going to die.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm tanking or healing and there's a good reason why I need to be the one to rez, I'll do it. Heck, even if there isn't a good reason for it but nobody else is doing it, I'll still do it. But the majority of the time it just makes so much more sense for the DPS to have that duty, and so many DPS don't seem to understand that. If I'm doing a dungeon as a DPS you'd better believe I always consider myself to be on rez duty.

If the rez thing is in relation to something I said - i probably said it wrong. As a DPS, I don't mind rezzing at all, but we were the only ones doing it. In regards to that, the healer wasn't healing, and the tank wasn't tanking - they were either dying or kiting everything in a circle (in retrospect, it was kind of funny looking). Then they would die, then we would rez, then they would die, etc. We finally stopped rezzing them, each taking turns toi do DPS and cast vigor - back and forth.

I only brought up DPS rezzing because it's their one job besides killing things and many DPS I come across don't seem to understand that having the tank stop tanking or the healer stop healing is a recipe for disaster. If I have a group member that dies over and over I'd stop rezzing them at some point at well and just finish the fight.

Yup, this. My rez comments were agreeing with what @wayfarerx said, and had nothing to do with what you had described as your experience @jzholloway. It sounds like you were doing the best thing for you to be doing in the circumstances.

NewBlacksmurf

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

No doubt something needs to be improved about the players rolls in the dungeon...

everyone has had the "tank" that can't tank

or the "heals" that can't/don't heal

but the DPS that have no idea how to DPS just need some research done for their character builds so they can get the optimal amount of DPS to contribute to their group.

The big problem with a system with no checks/balances is people will abuse the system to get what they want as quickly as they can, regardless of who else they *** off that has to carry them through that dungeon...

so what do you propose to resolve some of those issue you identify?

DenMoria

UrQuan wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

If you were on PC/NA I'd say you should come and run some dungeons with my guild. We follow the same philosophy as @jzholloway - it's not about being great at your role (although we've got some really good players who are very experienced in their roles), it's about being willing to try to do your role and being willing to switch stuff up if things aren't working. Also we tend to be very patient and supportive when people are inexperienced... We're all about actually having fun when we're doing dungeons, rather than being super elite or the best at everything.

Dern it. PS4 NA. Don't have so many issues grouping on EU though, although, the way it's been lately, I'm lucky if I can stay on the EU for more than an hour at a time.

jzholloway

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

So are you saying a hybrid build wont work for you?
Cause hybrid builds work....hybrid as in this specific example

My Templar is magic based so almost all stats pts are in magic and few in health.
Class skills all unlocked
roles = DPS and Healer
weapons (depending on role - Healing staff, destruction staff, dual weild)
Armor - light mostly..sometimes with 2 heavy but all set items magic based

So you're saying that I suck if I queue as DPS and the group ends up as 1 tank and 4 DPS so I and another player decide to use 1 or 2 of our healing skills to keep the group going?

Or lets say someone uses an undaunted skill to taunt cause the person who chose the tank role cant taunt...now 2 or 3 members can attempt to ping pong NPCs around....this works in a lot of situations tho no ideal on most bosses.

I think your intent is unrealistic and your perspective is either from lack of trial and error until finding success or youre basing this off an elitist mindset where either your max or you "suck"

"Vote to kick wont work"
-Really? why is that?
You're suggesting that if one person chooses to kick player X, requiring the other two to agree wont work......why would the other members not vote to kick if its a problem? If its not a problem then any one of us can choose to leave ourselves. That system works better than the options today to kick...(sometimes on accident, or without reason, or disband) but the point is to eliminate those who are abusing the leave and kick button who only want a specific scenario, like a friend or specific dungeon, or whatever other goal they have.

The random and grouping tools are for those who don't have a pre-made group ready. With that comes a different expectation and mindset than a manual or friend group.

Please elaborate and detail what I'm overlooking or missing?

Vote to kick wont work if three people formed a group then entered the duty finder - they could arbitrarily kick the 4th person for no reason - we have seen forum threads where someone gets kicked at the final boss.

I said most, I didn't say all. You are right, it is easier to have a more hybrid build with magika then it is for stamina - if you are wearing heavy armor as a tank, you give up a lot of DPS. At least magika, either DPS or Healing can both run light.

Lastly, no, I'm not saying you suck - I don't think anyone who can at least attempt to play their role sucks - even if they are not good. What sucks is people who select a job role and can't or don't even attempt to do it.

Yes, it was a blanket statement, and that was wrong.

jzholloway

DenMoria wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

If you were on PC/NA I'd say you should come and run some dungeons with my guild. We follow the same philosophy as @jzholloway - it's not about being great at your role (although we've got some really good players who are very experienced in their roles), it's about being willing to try to do your role and being willing to switch stuff up if things aren't working. Also we tend to be very patient and supportive when people are inexperienced... We're all about actually having fun when we're doing dungeons, rather than being super elite or the best at everything.

Dern it. PS4 NA. Don't have so many issues grouping on EU though, although, the way it's been lately, I'm lucky if I can stay on the EU for more than an hour at a time.

you are always welcome to join us!

DenMoria

Looks like it's time to re-up the subscription and recreate my Mag Templar healer/dps.

Anyone have a preference as to faction on the PS4?

I have speech issues so voice is tough, but I will react to aural (sound) though.

jzholloway

The group I run with is EP

wayfarerx

UrQuan wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

You sir/madam are better than most then.

Who defines what each role "should" be doing other than the obvious? I know there are some good guides out there, but, is there one or two that you think are better than the others?

Personally I used to play a healer and try to offer both healing and DPS, but I kept getting slammed because I WAS doing my job and healing (apparently people like to die or be severely injured?) and I was either putting out too much DPS trying to protect and support my teammates or too little because I was concentrating on keeping them alive. It just got exhausting. Maybe the groups have changed. I haven't grouped in a long time.

If you were on PC/NA I'd say you should come and run some dungeons with my guild. We follow the same philosophy as @jzholloway - it's not about being great at your role (although we've got some really good players who are very experienced in their roles), it's about being willing to try to do your role and being willing to switch stuff up if things aren't working. Also we tend to be very patient and supportive when people are inexperienced... We're all about actually having fun when we're doing dungeons, rather than being super elite or the best at everything.

Want to second this. Anyone looking for a fun dungeon night on PC/NA should definitely give @UrQuan 's group dungeon night a shot, he runs a tight ship and we always have a good time!

NewBlacksmurf

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yet another one of GT threads.

Sigh.

I said this many times before: the problem does not lie in the Grouping Tool. It is working, albeit not many people use it because they will most likely be paired with newbs.

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

If people did not have such an easy time smashing monsters during their solo ventures, they might consider improving their gear and/or skill setup.

wayfarerx wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.

So to these comments.....
The game is a lot easier in dungeons than it use to be. A LOT EASIER by at least a calculation of 50% - 75% easier regardless of dungeon, role or levels.

Now, I can't argue a ramp-up suggestion or idea because I would interpret that as a difficulty based on available skills. If im a healer and not a Templar but only have 1 or 2 healing staff skills...unmorphed...difficulty is relative by comparison of class and weapons and available skill points.

But....is the game really that hard or is it that "we" go into dungeons with certain expectations and assumptions and when things arent smooth, we point blame, kick, or leave? (Asking cause I haven't played with you all)

on Xbox One, which to me is slightly different than PC in that PC players type where xbox player talk (both someone dont get in the freaking channels) Oh well....

I've found the best results are than when we join...get on the horn and talk about expectations.

Hey healer...what skills and weapon are u using? (listen)
tank - what skills/weapon are u using?
DPS - what curses, debuff, support skills and DPS skills /weapons are u using

...then before any elite or any pull....(if ive done it before) hey folks..just an FYI...when we do this X or Y might happen.

...before bosses....hey folks...have we all done this fight before? OK...how do you / did you do it? (listen)
...OK....so I'm gonna do this when this happens...and u....ok

now lets roll