Group finder & Job Roles

jzholloway

I know this is a common occurrence, but I used the group finder last night to run a "random" normal dungeon while waiting to run vWGT with my normal team. I got plugged into Spindleclutch - not too bad on normal at all - with a lvl 19, a lvl 45 and another VR16. Both the 19 and 45 where job slotted for more then one job - the lvl 19 was slotted for all three, tank, healer and dps (all of this was a joke - he followed, could not hold aggro, didn't do much damage and certainly did not heal), the 45 was slotted as a healer and dps - better on damage, but no healing to speak of. Only myself (slotted as a DPS - on my stamplar) and the other stamplar were slotted properly (both as DPS) - sadly, we also performed all of the heals, tanking and revives.
I know it would be difficult for zenimax to only allow people to slot jobs based on skills slotted or whatever - we all run some sort of healing usually, along with DPS, but what if ZOS only allowed us to slot one job? Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired - so I know this could still be an issue of time, but seriously, allowing for someone to slot for more then one job simply to play the duty finder is crap.
Yes, we completed the dungeon - but it was painful (and costly) since even the most sustained builds can't stay alive forever in a scaled VR16 normal dungeon and do all or share most of the DPS.

i suggest the following:
1 - Can only slot for one job
2 - After dungeon, each person can "star" someone who performed in their role (make this mean something so someone will actually play the role they slotted)
3- After dungeon, allow for a user feedback where if someone slots as a healer yet never heals, we can let the "game" know. Or at least let the person know by an auto mail or something. i realize some people slot as a healer and actually try to heal, constructive criticism of some sort can be useful for these people.
4 - Allow negative marks - if someone receives X amount of negative marks based upon job selection, that person cannot slot in that role for X amount of days for random dungeon finder. It would add the incentive to actually slot for your role. If someone is concerned about the wait, start a healer or a tank and learn how to do that too - its not like the rewards cannot be shared among characters.

I would assume on veteran difficulty this would be an even bigger issue - make the positive/negative marks mean more.

wayfarerx

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

jzholloway

I agree that people can do multiple roles - the problem is people who can't do the roles they are slotting for. For example, if you can heal and do dps, great... this means that you should be able to heal if you see no one healing. The problem is when two people slot as a healer and obviously can't heal. Or if someone slots as a tank and can't tank. I'm not worried about ranking - don't need a list, just an internal "star" system where maybe an achievement is awarded based on how many you get - obviously your own friends or members of a pre-made group wouldn't be able to star you.

I also agree that random groups are random, and that is fun - what is not fun is running into a dungeon expecting a healer to heal and they sit back and do nothing - if you find that fun, congrats, I find it annoying and dishonest. Like you I can do many roles with many of of characters, but obviously if I'm running in with a stamplar more then likely I am going to be doing DPS. If you are a level 19 Sorc you should not be slotted as a tank - period - its just common sense.

No, i don't want trolling either, but slotting incorrectly in itself feels like a troll. I'm also not saying there is a perfect solution - there never is in an MMO.

ThePMSBeast

jzholloway wrote: »

I know this is a common occurrence, but I used the group finder last night to run a "random" normal dungeon while waiting to run vWGT with my normal team. I got plugged into Spindleclutch - not too bad on normal at all - with a lvl 19, a lvl 45 and another VR16. Both the 19 and 45 where job slotted for more then one job - the lvl 19 was slotted for all three, tank, healer and dps (all of this was a joke - he followed, could not hold aggro, didn't do much damage and certainly did not heal), the 45 was slotted as a healer and dps - better on damage, but no healing to speak of. Only myself (slotted as a DPS - on my stamplar) and the other stamplar were slotted properly (both as DPS) - sadly, we also performed all of the heals, tanking and revives.
I know it would be difficult for zenimax to only allow people to slot jobs based on skills slotted or whatever - we all run some sort of healing usually, along with DPS, but what if ZOS only allowed us to slot one job? Obviously tanking and healing are the ones most needed and desired - so I know this could still be an issue of time, but seriously, allowing for someone to slot for more then one job simply to play the duty finder is crap.
Yes, we completed the dungeon - but it was painful (and costly) since even the most sustained builds can't stay alive forever in a scaled VR16 normal dungeon and do all or share most of the DPS.

i suggest the following:
1 - Can only slot for one job

-other mmos will choose the role for you based on your class. however, with so much diversity for each class, each being able to perform multiple roles it would only work if the game chose your role by what you have slotted as main weapon. But yes i totally agree, you should only be able to choose ONE role only.

2 - After dungeon, each person can "star" someone who performed in their role (make this mean something so someone will actually play the role they slotted)

-I like this idea ! Another MMO i play has something similar to that. Basically you can award one person a commendation after the dungeon run as a reward for good play, leadership etc. Those commendations go towards special awards like mounts, titles ,extra xp and gold rewards etc . However, so this can't be exploited, you cannot commend a player who cued with you as a party, so party members can't keep commending each other but only has the option to commend someone they picked up in DF

3- After dungeon, allow for a user feedback where if someone slots as a healer yet never heals, we can let the "game" know. Or at least let the person know by an auto mail or something. i realize some people slot as a healer and actually try to heal, constructive criticism of some sort can be useful for these people.

- well this can be done now through whispers or tells. You can whisper them and give constructive advice or friend them to help them along if they need.

4 - Allow negative marks - if someone receives X amount of negative marks based upon job selection, that person cannot slot in that role for X amount of days for random dungeon finder. It would add the incentive to actually slot for your role. If someone is concerned about the wait, start a healer or a tank and learn how to do that too - its not like the rewards cannot be shared among characters.

- I don't like this because you can just troll someone you don't like with negative marks. Some players might get negative marks because someone wants to be a bully. Just seems like it could be exploited badly .

Instead how about this idea: People with X amount of commendations (mentioned above) will be awarded faster cue times in dungeons , more XP and gold when cueing for random dungeons , thus helping a pug party out. Award them for getting those commendations and those that show poor sportsmanship, are mean or just trolling the party will not be rewarded and those that do will see the benefits of being a good player.

I would assume on veteran difficulty this would be an even bigger issue - make the positive/negative marks mean more.

Overall nice suggestions, i think tossing cookies to players is a good thing, even if it's a special snowflake title...which i totally would want.

wayfarerx

jzholloway wrote: »

I'm not worried about ranking - don't need a list, just an internal "star" system where maybe an achievement is awarded based on how many you get - obviously your own friends or members of a pre-made group wouldn't be able to star you.

Well for said "stars" to be effective they would have to do some sort of ranking. So when I take my very experienced templar healer and try out a tank build, well I have no tank stars so I can't choose that role? Or I get shuffled off into some grouping tool grotto because no one want and unranked tank? How does this actually work to prevent terribads from selecting bad roles but still lets experienced players try new roles?

jzholloway wrote: »

I also agree that random groups are random, and that is fun - what is not fun is running into a dungeon expecting a healer to heal and they sit back and do nothing - if you find that fun, congrats, I find it annoying and dishonest. Like you I can do many roles with many of of characters, but obviously if I'm running in with a stamplar more then likely I am going to be doing DPS. If you are a level 19 Sorc you should not be slotted as a tank - period - its just common sense.

Honestly, most of the dungeons are so easy for experienced players I do actually like the added challenge inherent in running with a PUG. If you don't like that then join a PvE guild or five.

And I've tanked on a level 19 sorc and done quite well, common sense be damned.

jzholloway wrote: »

No, i don't want trolling either, but slotting incorrectly in itself feels like a troll. I'm also not saying there is a perfect solution - there never is in an MMO.

My position is that most of the proposed cures I see are worse than the disease itself. Yes, getting grouped with a level 19 bow-wielding sorcerer marked as a healer sucks, I get that. But after two years the group finder is finally open to everyone and working well. Let's please keep it that way.

Miszou

Curiously enough, I earned the Dungeon Healer achievement before I earned the Dungeon Blocker achievement.

On my tank.

By throwing rocks at things.

I only ever queue as tank.

So I don't think the game should decide my role based on anything like that.

That is all.

Lightninvash

I would agree except for the negative remarks id say have some sort of tracking that players can see oh look he is a 5* healer he is good or daang 5* dps she will be great vs when you get a 1* tank because he isn't that great and may need help. both of these could possibly cause griefing because not many would want a 1* tank healer or dps in the group. could cause issues with your #4 and my suggestion with griefers. But if it is made to vote to kick some may not want to kick right away and see how he does anyways could be a newer tank that hasn't done dungeons much to get the good rating in the dungeon finder. or someone who uses guilds and not dungeon finder so his score is low.

Gargath

Dungeon Blocker achievement is related also with soloing delves, not only Group Dungeons. I got it inside some delve indeed .

As for the Group Finder, at the end of many dungeons I was in, most players quickly run off the group, especially if they played bad and know it, to forget about their misery before anyone blame them. Not much time to evaluate others, when those who stay are in minority .

TheDarkShadow

wayfarerx wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

I'm not worried about ranking - don't need a list, just an internal "star" system where maybe an achievement is awarded based on how many you get - obviously your own friends or members of a pre-made group wouldn't be able to star you.

Well for said "stars" to be effective they would have to do some sort of ranking. So when I take my very experienced templar healer and try out a tank build, well I have no tank stars so I can't choose that role? Or I get shuffled off into some grouping tool grotto because no one want and unranked tank? How does this actually work to prevent terribads from selecting bad roles but still lets experienced players try new roles?

jzholloway wrote: »

I also agree that random groups are random, and that is fun - what is not fun is running into a dungeon expecting a healer to heal and they sit back and do nothing - if you find that fun, congrats, I find it annoying and dishonest. Like you I can do many roles with many of of characters, but obviously if I'm running in with a stamplar more then likely I am going to be doing DPS. If you are a level 19 Sorc you should not be slotted as a tank - period - its just common sense.

Honestly, most of the dungeons are so easy for experienced players I do actually like the added challenge inherent in running with a PUG. If you don't like that then join a PvE guild or five.

And I've tanked on a level 19 sorc and done quite well, common sense be damned.

jzholloway wrote: »

No, i don't want trolling either, but slotting incorrectly in itself feels like a troll. I'm also not saying there is a perfect solution - there never is in an MMO.

My position is that most of the proposed cures I see are worse than the disease itself. Yes, getting grouped with a level 19 bow-wielding sorcerer marked as a healer sucks, I get that. But after two years the group finder is finally open to everyone and working well. Let's please keep it that way.

I agree with this. Normal dungeons are easy enough to finish even with a under-average group. It add an extra exciting unknow what group you gonna get and what strategy you need to deal with what you got. Just never use it for vet though, unless you already have a good group and only need to quick fill an unimportant slot. If you want to play save, you can always use the "old way" FLG/M in zone/guild chat. Leave the group finder as it is.

swirve

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

@wayfarerx

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell or crypt of hearts when they come up...they are fairly easy but not the easiest

wayfarerx

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

swirve

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

DenMoria

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

jzholloway

No, you don't need stars or whatever to slot a job - thats not really the point, and yes, that idea may be heavy handed (and to whoever tanked a VR16 scaled dungeon with a level 19 Sorc... good on you..)

The overall point is choosing roles with the purpose of playing them - so yeah, I get a ranking system can really hurt someones self esteem if they get bad marks - and no, one should not give bad marks for someone actually trying to run their role. If I'm slotted as a tank - can't keep aggro, keep dying (even while being healed), can't mitigate/snare/cancel the enemies I would expect my normal crew to say something - problem is in random dungeons (which have their own rewards) no one is in group chat (console) - PC may be different with group chat (text), so you can't offer any advice, ask what someone is doing, etc.

Example last night - the "tank" level 19 sorc was in group chat, I got in, tried to speak to him and got nothing - just watched him run around aggro'ing everything - including the final boss with the last mob pull (spindleclutch). Told him to pull the boss - the response was "I'm tanking so I'll pull" - the only thing ever said.

Yes many of us know how to play and fulfill roles - maybe not perfectly- but we get the idea. If you want to try out a tank, you probably have an idea how to play the role because you have been watching tanks forever. Slotting as a tank just to get into a dungeon, or a healer for that matter, is totally stupid and irresponsible - no matter how easy the dungeon may be. I do believe people can fulfill different roles - likewise, I'm a tank, got healer achievement before blocking - probably because I ran puvblic dungeons solo and healed myself a a lot. I also got dungeon dealer achievement first as well, from running guild mates a lot lower through dungeons for their undaunted. Through it all, I slot as a tank on my tank, dps on my dps, and healer on my healer - and again, if I make a mistake, I want someone to tell me or let me know. I don't slot my tank as a DPS because that would be a joke. Could I make him into DPS - yep, I carry a set of hundings and night silence with me in medium, I have the skills unlocked, but when I run him in a dungeon its to tank, so that is where he is slotted. IF I need to do some DPS, I change some skills around, gear if needed, but he is primarily there as a tank.

If you like running dungeons with people slotted as healers and tanks who are not healers and tanks - and in fact may be nothing at all, great. More power to you. In fact, honestly, I salute you - be the backpack carrier all you want. I run dungeons to run with like minded individuals who have a role to play - even if they can fill other roles as well. The key is they CAN fill those roles. If you CANNOT fill the role, don't slot it as your job.;

jzholloway

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

I don't think you are an elitist - and I don't think anyone has come across that way - my intent was to open the discussion - mainly about people slotting roles they are not suited for. I also agree, the group finder with cross-alliance play is awesome - My concern again falls with people slotting roles that they are not equipped to do so a) they can get in a dungeon quick or b) get in a dungeon quick and get carried.

wayfarerx

jzholloway wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

I don't think you are an elitist - and I don't think anyone has come across that way - my intent was to open the discussion - mainly about people slotting roles they are not suited for. I also agree, the group finder with cross-alliance play is awesome - My concern again falls with people slotting roles that they are not equipped to do so a) they can get in a dungeon quick or b) get in a dungeon quick and get carried.

I wasn't talking to you in that post, I think your concern about people slotting roles they can't perform in is well founded. I think discussing ways to improve the grouping tool is great, I'm just wary of solutions that will balkanize the playerbase and possibly leave new or inexperienced players out in the cold.

jzholloway

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

jzholloway

wayfarerx wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

I don't think you are an elitist - and I don't think anyone has come across that way - my intent was to open the discussion - mainly about people slotting roles they are not suited for. I also agree, the group finder with cross-alliance play is awesome - My concern again falls with people slotting roles that they are not equipped to do so a) they can get in a dungeon quick or b) get in a dungeon quick and get carried.

I wasn't talking to you in that post, I think your concern about people slotting roles they can't perform in is well founded. I think discussing ways to improve the grouping tool is great, I'm just wary of solutions that will balkanize the playerbase and possibly leave new or inexperienced players out in the cold.

I know you weren't talking to me - I just wanted to make it clear I don't think you are an elitist. Thanks for acknowledging my concerns. I agree, I don't want to ostracize anyone - but I think the only way to ensure people slot roles they are capable of is to offer some sort of incentive. Too many people try to take the easy way - or in this case the quickest - way out.

I also don't want to leave inexperienced players out - hell, I want to help new players or players who don't have much dungeon experience. I just also want people to play within the role they slotted. I know... its a catch-22

Lightninvash

jzholloway wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

And these kind of things are why I have almost completely given up on ESO.

You try to group and if you don't perform exactly as and have the exact build desired, you are treated like garbage and ostracized.

I'll just play alone and enjoy the game a couple of times a month. I've already cancelled my sub.

The hassle just isn't worth it.

I don't care if someone is flawless - or perfect - or even that good - what I want is someone slotted as a healer to at least try to heal. I know everyone needs to learn, I get that.

I also understand it takes longer to get into dungeons as a DPS, but if that is what you are, then that is what you are. If you are a tank, at least try to tank, etc.

I don't expect every one to be geared out to the max - i've been tanking on and off now for almsot two years, I don't have the perfect gear that a lot of people call for, but I do tank, and do alright - not perfect, still learning, but with my tank thats what I do. With my DPS, I DPS - I don't try to tank, I don't taunt, I do heal myself when I can because i know healers have a stressful job.

For me its not about being perfect, great, or even good necessarily - its about fulfilling the role YOU SAID you are, nothing more.

I agree with this if they slot a role they should be able to preform the role. I Think once text chat comes to console it will help with pugs that don't use their mics so we can help them learn that way.

newtinmpls

jzholloway wrote: »

The key is they CAN fill those roles. If you CANNOT fill the role, don't slot it as your job.;

While I agree that slotting what you 'can' do is appropriate, I also suspect that the average min-maxer superstar and the casual player may have somewhat different ideas about how to "do" any given job.

swirve

jzholloway wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

I don't think you are an elitist - and I don't think anyone has come across that way - my intent was to open the discussion - mainly about people slotting roles they are not suited for. I also agree, the group finder with cross-alliance play is awesome - My concern again falls with people slotting roles that they are not equipped to do so a) they can get in a dungeon quick or b) get in a dungeon quick and get carried.

Shame all these multi slotters never seem to be prepared to prove they are capable. I multislot as a dk dps healer simply because ive played with multislotters who cannot do any role well so i switch to healer if needed with full dk and resto heal abilities. Id happily prove myself and id also happily single slot. The main thing seems to be a lot of impatient want to be carried time wasters who slot abilities they cannot do. So to counter that you have to multislot.

UrQuan

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Dubhliam

Yet another one of GT threads.

Sigh.

I said this many times before: the problem does not lie in the Grouping Tool. It is working, albeit not many people use it because they will most likely be paired with newbs.

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

If people did not have such an easy time smashing monsters during their solo ventures, they might consider improving their gear and/or skill setup.

swirve

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

NewBlacksmurf

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

UrQuan

swirve wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

No proof is needed. Nobody cares about proving anything to you. Anyone who has run with @wayfarerx knows he's good and can easily swap roles or classes, and can carry people who don't know what they're doing. Why would anyone care whether you believe that?

jzholloway

swirve wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

No, leave the grouping tool alone. I know plenty of people (myself included) that can do multiple roles on a single character just by swapping around some gear and skills. Ranking will just lead to elitism and the negative marks idea will be trolled mercilessly.

Random groups are random, for many players that's part of the fun. If you want the rewards for doing a random dungeon then deal with the challenges that come along with it.

Lol..elitism...id love for you to post a vid showing how beastmode you are in those two roles...and whether you use a mic...

Will you accept the challenge..how about banished cell when it comes up...that is fairly easy but not the easiest

I don't know you man and I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I play video games for fun, not to prove how "beastmode" I am at pressing buttons. I think the grouping tool finally works great as is and doesn't need features added that segment the population.

I'm getting ready to start pugging with some new alts that I leveled up during cake week. Hop in the grouping tool and maybe I'll be your tank or healer (assuming you're on PC/NA). Otherwise I don't really want anything to do with players that demand video proof of my "beastmode" skills.

You brought up how easily you switch classes...which is beyond a lot of gf players... i knew youd not be willing to prove...

The grouping tool works great for your needs...got that.

FYI @swirve I run dungeons with @wayfarerx pretty regularly in our guild's group dungeon night (which isn't quite the same as PUGing with the group finder, but it still usually includes some inexperienced players, and depending on how many people come out we'll often fill out a group or two with people from the group finder, or sometimes run a group that's missing one of the standard roles, or sometimes 3-man a dungeon, or other weirdness). He switches classes and roles very easily, and I've never seen him be anything other than highly effective in a dungeon. I have no doubt that he can carry bad random groups from the group finder through any of the non-vet dungeons, and through most of the vet dungeons. Even when he's not on one of his VR16s.

Highly effective to you does not give me any further confidence in hus ability. The proof would be in a speedrun vid post showing what he can do. If prepared to do that id gladly say kudos to him.

Totally missing the point of the OP - its not about the ability to switch roles or speed run dungeons or wipe the floor with anything - it is simply being able to do what you say you can do in the group finder. If you can't DPS, don't select it, if you can't heal, don't select it, if you can't tank, don't select it - unless of course you are new and learning, then at the beginning of the dungeon, in group text or chat (PC or console) make it known, then at least everyone knows you may need advice and wont get pissed when you run around not doing anything productive at all. If people don't pay attention to group chat or text, that is on them, but I always at least check group chat when I run a dungeon with PUGS.

jzholloway

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

1. NO... this makes no sense at all. While I've been in groups where someone isn't good at their role or even select a role just to get a faster queue, limiting the selection isnt going to change that behavior. Its just going to cause ppl to have one role and we have no idea what other roles they can fill. This does not solve the problem or concern you identify.
2. No... because the tool struggles to work as is, so having us do something else as a pop-up again...doesnt address the issue you're describing.
3. No.... ain't nobody got time for that!
4. No...again this doesn't resolve the issue youre describing.

Very simple.... ZOS just needs to add in vote to kick, and stop there...
possibly ZOS can look into tool abilities...like 2 skills that are role specific so that DPS..gets 2 DPS skills to use, if they choose.
Healer gets 2 healing spells they can use
Tank gets 2 tank spells they can use

Regardless of spec and stats, these 2 skills will fulfill the role regardless of level and skill

*Suggestion*
-If you're using the tool, you need to have a hybrid build so you can easily mix match skills as needed based on the group. Its to no one's benefit to expect anyone to fulfill their role (like I think you should) because we range from level 10 to VR16.

There are a lot of logical reasons why someone can't do as well as another player expects, which isn't a player cheating or trying to get over on others.

Having a hybrid build (which most suck) or having extra gear and skills to slot cannot be the answer - it would end up being t expensive.

Again, I don't expect a Templar healer to be perfect, but I expect some sort of heal, at least once, while running a dungeon. I don't expect a level 19 Sorc to tank like I can on my VR16 DK, but if he is going to slot tank, I expect him to at least be able to pull aggro on something, at least once, while running a dungeon.

Side note - vote to kick wont work - if three people group up and run a random dungeon with one person (if it ever gets fixed anyways) - those three will never get kicked and the one guy will end up being trolled (or at least the potential is there.

Jaeysa

I don't think it's too much to ask for a healer to be able to heal(have spent skill points in some healing skills) or a tank to have a taunt. That being said, getting the randoms to -use- said skills isn't something ZoS can do.

jzholloway

Jaeysa wrote: »

I don't think it's too much to ask for a healer to be able to heal(have spent skill points in some healing skills) or a tank to have a taunt. That being said, getting the randoms to -use- said skills isn't something ZoS can do.

I agree - so then it has to be on us, yet there really isn't anything we can do about it.

wayfarerx

Dubhliam wrote: »

The game is baby-easy mode for solo story content and people think they are fit to jump into a group dungeon when they are, in fact, not.
And THAT is where the problem lies.

THIS is where real improvements can be made. The game needs some sort of ramp between the "play as you want" solo content and v16 scaled dungeons where people need to know their role. Little tank/healer training missions that teach you to taunt/buff/whatever. Heck even one for DPS since many of them don't know that they are supposed to be in charge of rezzing.

Make the short tutorial quests a perquisite for selecting the associated role and you would at least help out the players who are not gaming the group finder but just legitimately don't know any better.