Official Tanking Feedback Thread

Wing

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Calling all Tanks!

The Dungeon and Gameplay teams would love to get some feedback from all of you damage sponge, block mastering, mitigation kings out there. This thread is going to mainly cover PvE encounters specifically in group dungeons or Trials. If you like to play a tank in ESO and want to have your voice heard, or you don't and want us to know why, please answer the following questions. Please make sure you mention if you primarily play on console or PC.

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

Thanks a lot for your feedback. We look forward to hearing what you have to say!

-I play on PC NA
-1) the fact that its survival is passive as opposed to active from other playstyles and being in the thick of enemies like a boss,
-2) you deal no damage as opposed to other playstyles, this makes everything except group play a chore and not fun.
-3) storm atro boss in AA trial, everyone died and I solo'd it.
-4) everything post stam regen nerf as I ended up playing a stamina management minigame that I did not enjoy.
-5) high mitigations and tough looking armor, it was fun taking hits on the chest that would cripple others.
-6) damage, other classes have just as much survivability in their own way that requires active management (casting heals or shields or what have you) but also have huge amounts of damage. because tank survivability is passive instead of active they pay for it with all damage, this makes them boring to play in 95% of all content, and why they are restricted to ONLY 1 if they are even wanted in the 5% of forced group content.

now before people start having brain farts and making themselves look a fool by saying things like "if tanks could do damage that would be broken!!11!1!!"

I kind of agree, if they did damage the classic way of having high damage dealing skills they can spam, yes, it would be bad. that's why they need damage that befits their role and playstyle. passive damage return built into heavy armor (ala DK dragon armor) that reflects a % amount of damage taken (not mitigated) this %damage reflect scales based on max health.

that way, to do damage a tank must invest in health, and be getting hit, taunting enemies and doing their roles job, the better they do their job, the more damage they do.

EDIT: also standardize armor values across all locations the current system benefits people who only wear 1-2 pieces of heavy and punishes tanks for wearing a full set.

dodgehopper_ESO

Wing wrote: »

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Calling all Tanks!

The Dungeon and Gameplay teams would love to get some feedback from all of you damage sponge, block mastering, mitigation kings out there. This thread is going to mainly cover PvE encounters specifically in group dungeons or Trials. If you like to play a tank in ESO and want to have your voice heard, or you don't and want us to know why, please answer the following questions. Please make sure you mention if you primarily play on console or PC.

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

Thanks a lot for your feedback. We look forward to hearing what you have to say!

-I play on PC NA
-1) the fact that its survival is passive as opposed to active from other playstyles and being in the thick of enemies like a boss,
-2) you deal no damage as opposed to other playstyles, this makes everything except group play a chore and not fun.
-3) storm atro boss in AA trial, everyone died and I solo'd it.
-4) everything post stam regen nerf as I ended up playing a stamina management minigame that I did not enjoy.
-5) high mitigations and tough looking armor, it was fun taking hits on the chest that would cripple others.
-6) damage, other classes have just as much survivability in their own way that requires active management (casting heals or shields or what have you) but also have huge amounts of damage. because tank survivability is passive instead of active they pay for it with all damage, this makes them boring to play in 95% of all content, and why they are restricted to ONLY 1 if they are even wanted in the 5% of forced group content.

now before people start having brain farts and making themselves look a fool by saying things like "if tanks could do damage that would be broken!!11!1!!"

I kind of agree, if they did damage the classic way of having high damage dealing skills they can spam, yes, it would be bad. that's why they need damage that befits their role and playstyle. passive damage return built into heavy armor (ala DK dragon armor) that reflects a % amount of damage taken (not mitigated) this %damage reflect scales based on max health.

that way, to do damage a tank must invest in health, and be getting hit, taunting enemies and doing their roles job, the better they do their job, the more damage they do.

EDIT: also standardize armor values across all locations the current system benefits people who only wear 1-2 pieces of heavy and punishes tanks for wearing a full set.

This is a very good point, and one I'd like to add upon. While it isn't directly related I do think the Undaunted passive promotes a certain arrangement of armoring which isn't entirely logical. There should be some situations where it is better to go all heavy, all light, or all medium. I feel like the Undaunted passive really makes you want to mix and match your armor types, which from a logical standpoint is a bit silly if you factor in real world combat. For example, wearing a Hoodie instead of a helmet that protects your brain, your face, your throat and your spine on a soldier who is otherwise wearing full plate is ridiculous. The whole reason for wearing full plate armor is to be nigh unkillable. Exposing your head actually exposes a large number of vitals. At any regard it isn't a big deal I like the Undaunted passives, but I feel like the game ought to give us reasons to actually go full plate.

Monchegorsk

I play on PC/EU.

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
That it isn't simple "taunt all baddies and stand in one place while they beat on you", but requires active blocking, bashing and dodge rolling.

That it is the only role where i can somewhat justify wearing heavy armor.


2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
As many others have said, it is unnecessary for most dungeons. I especially hate it when a boss doesn't have aggro at all (Engine Guardian), which makes you feel even more useless. You are basically forced then to equip a ranged weapon, which makes me just furious. "Play the way you want" my ass!

I also hate the fact that heavy armor feels VERY lackluster and makes you feel like a useless dmg sponge and not a badass frontline warrior like it's supposed to.


3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
Anything where I can tank and crontrol both the boss and ads in melee form

4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
Vila Theran, Engine Guardian, basically all bosses which I CAN'T tank, or have to equip ranged which I just absolutely hate and will probably make me leave the game if it doesn't get fixed.


5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
Heavy armor, shields and defensive skills that make me feel (or are supposed to) like a behemoth.


6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Heavy armor of course. Right now it is just too weak. Medium armor users can get just as tanky, but without all the penalties to resource management. Horrible game design.

Personofsecrets

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I've heard that tanks during the Burning Crusade times of WOW did the most damage out of everyone until everyone that wasn't a tank complained about tanks.

Wing

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I've heard that tanks during the Burning Crusade times of WOW did the most damage out of everyone until everyone that wasn't a tank complained about tanks.

I have no clue, I come from DDO and that game has some of the most diverse build design and theory crafting I think in any MMO

14 classes at 20 levels a piece, can mix and match levels from a total of three classes at any given time, each class has 3 paths within it, 11 races each with a racial path, 12 epic destines that are effectively new talent trees from 20-30.

in the end everyone was pretty much able to tank, do damage, heal, and bring utility, all in some form or another, they just went about it different ways. paladins and monks could both be tanky and do damage it was just different, IE: monks relied on various miss chances stacked up to take very few hits for moderate damage, and paladins stacked armor and mitigation to take all the hits for negligible damage.

it all ended up the same, but it FELT very different. I hate turbine now though so meh.

Djeriko

I have an idea to change the ash cloud morphs for DK to allow more flexibility with DK builds. The idea operates much like the morphs for the Fighters Guild ability Trap Beast.

The old ash cloud ability used to be an aoe that was cast targeting the caster's position at the time. Also cinder storm used to have a miss chance as part of the aoe to any enemies that entered the space which was great for tanks. This miss chance was removed and we were given a ground targeting aoe that we could cast from a distance.

To help players choose their route, make the ash cloud morph self targeting like it used to and give it a dodge chance instead of miss chance. This works like the NB blur effect when the DK gets major evasion but add "only as long as he is in the aoe" plus the aoe does the same dot of fire dmg. This would make it a great tanking skill while still not putting miss chance and it only works on the caster to have the dodge chance if you are worried about it being spread to too many allies.

As for eruption, keep it the way it is now. This way you can choose cinder storm for a less damaging tanky spell or a higher damage distance casting spell.

What do the rest of you guys think?

hrothbern

We have 96 feedbacks now on the question list.
So far very constructive and focussed, without controversial !@#$%^ affecting a nice player's summary.
Also nice "sharing between tanks" info

The last posts already more towards discussion than giving the question 1-6 feedback.
In the recent poll of @paulsimonps , also calling all tanks to tell what kind of tank, 141 players voted.
( http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248631/what-type-of-tank-do-you-play-the-most/p1 )

So I guess that the majority of tanks active on this Forum has given feedback by now.
Besides a couple of more feedbacks to come, that really answer the OP list, this thread could get diluted/confused with discussions starting.

So... @ZOS_Finn , could you give us guidance how to move on ?

What more can we contribute in an organised fashion ?
Or is this fine as it is ?

Jar_Ek

@HIghwayRobberBill You stated that sorcerer tanks were in a pretty good place. I assume you mean magicka sorcerers using hardened ward? Could you expand on this please?

paulsimonps

I play as a Stamina Based DK Tank on EP PC

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
Its less about going through a rotation like a DPS usually does in a tab-target system. Instead its about reacting to the needs of the situation. Taunt the right targets first, crowd control in the right way for how the mobs act, make the boss follow you in the way you want it to to save your team and much more. But a lot of things also hangs on the tank not messing up, giving you a lot of responsibility, forget to retaunt or missed to taunt the right target and your allies will die.

2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
The lack of a proper challenge in most encounters. There are too many instances where a tank is not needed in group content. I mean there are some bosses that are untauntable making a tank useless. You can run any Normal dungeon without a tank no problem and the same can be said of a lot of veteran dungeons. As an example, Veteran Darkshade Caverns, the Kwama boss does too little damage to pose a threat to the group, no need for tank. The Netch boss, technically you can taunt it but its meaning less and its all about AoE'ing the adds down then burn the boss. Last boss is untauntable and a tank is again not needed. Its sad that some tanks can be looking for groups for the pledges and instead of being invited gets laughed at cause they are not needed.

3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
So far it has been the Maw of Lorkharj on the PTS, I have not tried the normal version and not gotten past 2nd boss but there were some real challenge for a tank in there, more of that please! But If I had to pick something that is currently on live I would have to say Hel Ra Citadel hard mode Warrior fight, thou its way more fun to not do the stack and burn strategy even thou of course the stack and burn is more effective at getting high scores, really wish it wasn't but it is. The Warrior fight on hard mode has a lot of movement and coordination for the team to handle and leading a run like that as a tank is the most fun I have had as tank on live currently. But the new trial gives even more of a Challenge and is really fun to tank even if I have yet to complete it.

4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
The Planar Inhibitor and the Engine Guardian, untauntable bosses with no need for a full on tank. Not only does it force you to go full damage set up for the Planar Inhibitor but not doing so on the Engine Guardian as well makes you dead weight to the group.

5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
Pierce Armor and Deep Slash. I like to contribute to my team in forms of buffs and debuffs and those two are simple yet effective at what I want to do. I try as much as I can to not use Inner fire cause it does not debuff the target and costs a lot more. As well I like using Deep Slash rather than Heroic Slash which seems to be more popular of a morph cause Deep Slash it applies the debuffs and damage to not only the main target but two additional targets within range. Love to use that on Aetherian Archive Mage boss.

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Guard, would love an ability like it that protected allies from melee hits as well. I remember when I played Warhammer Online, the Orc Tanks had an ability that when he used it he took the hits from any ally standing behind him in a short cone area. That would be cool, I can't remember exactly how it used to work but I do remember that if the enemies went around the tank then the effect would not apply so it would give the tank a reason to move around and his allies would have to keep up with him if they wanted the protection. Could be cool to see in PvP as well as PvE, IF you make it so that it can't be kept up for ever and that the AI of the mobs and bosses learned that even if they were taunted on the tank their AoE's could hit more targets if they moved around the tank and stuff, like those abilities some bosses have that hit a random target. Would hate the skill if it just make it easier to stack and burn, I hate stack and burn. Any boss where we can skip mechanics cause we do enough damage that it dies before it can use it needs to be updated in someway.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

paulsimonps wrote: »

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Guard, would love an ability like it that protected allies from melee hits as well. I remember when I played Warhammer Online, the Orc Tanks had an ability that when he used it he took the hits from any ally standing behind him in a short cone area. That would be cool, I can't remember exactly how it used to work but I do remember that if the enemies went around the tank then the effect would not apply so it would give the tank a reason to move around and his allies would have to keep up with him if they wanted the protection. Could be cool to see in PvP as well as PvE, IF you make it so that it can't be kept up for ever and that the AI of the mobs and bosses learned that even if they were taunted on the tank their AoE's could hit more targets if they moved around the tank and stuff, like those abilities some bosses have that hit a random target. Would hate the skill if it just make it easier to stack and burn, I hate stack and burn. Any boss where we can skip mechanics cause we do enough damage that it dies before it can use it needs to be updated in someway.

This times a million!! I like the idea of Guard, but it could be so much more awesome (especially in the way you describe, which would encourage having harder hitting bosses and more group coordination). The armor sets that have chances to intercept attacks are very 'meh,' plus I disagree with basic balance or combat features being only accessible through set bonuses. Would also like to see a version of Guard that uses magicka, but don't have any ideas what such an ability would do though...

Wing

I would like to comment on comments I see posted (nobody in particular) that often summarize to this:

"make content harder so tanks are required"

I disagree. this does not really work in group content (~5%), and has the complete adverse effect in solo content (~95%)

let me give a fast breakdown of why this is a bad idea and only hurts tanks further. as I have stated most archetypes have the same survivability its just that the classic tank survivability is passive rather then active. stamina and magicka dps builds have very good incoming healing because there main damage stats boost their healing, they are just required to actively heal and shield rather then passively reducing the damage.

tanks have no damage because of their focus on passive mitigation, not so for other archetypes. had to get that out of the way.

now say you increase difficulty through:

health: you buff enemy health to make combat last longer, this does not effect dps classes too much and only slightly increases their time to kill. however this makes tanks EVEN WORSE as they already have a ridiculously long time to kill and this only makes it longer. further more as tanks have poor resource regen compared to other archetypes they may in fact run out of resources and loose the fight to enemy attrition.

damage: you increase damage of enemies. this also has the worst effect on tanks. other classes can possibly still kill enemies fast enough to either not take any damage or minimize the amount of damage they take. classic tanks on the other hand lack that option and thus will be taking the most damage from this as they have a long time to kill, further, the increase in damage may make obsolete and mitigation and tank stats the tank was going for because the enemy will still kill them, thus forcing even more of a glass cannon burn style of build to kill enemies before they can hit you.

etc. anything you do via the world to try to force tanks has the adverse effect and can actually promote dps style of play.


people should WANT to play a tank style character, not feel FORCED to play a tank style character. right now the big problem with tanks is in the ~95% of solo content they just play to slow because they do no damage, and attrition is not a fun style of gameplay.

Wing

posting this for clarity:

tanks need damage that befits their role and playstyle:

passive damage return built into heavy armor (ala DK dragon armor) that reflects a % amount of damage taken (pre mitigation) this %damage reflect scales based on max health.

that way, to do damage a tank must invest in health, be getting hit, taunting enemies and doing their roles job, the better they do their job, the more damage they do.


this prevents damage stacking as tank damage is health dependent and not magicka or stamina. buffs heavy armor in a few ways: adds damage return, the +health will further increase that, and the mitigation and +health regen will be more usefull.

this makes tank survivability and damage both passive, good, and based on how good of a job they are doing, freeing them up to do that job. taunt enemies, position themselves, agro bosses, peel for their dps, initiate fights, block when required, etc.
if they do their job well, the survivability and damage will come second nature and thus not require them to focus on it, but on the duties their role requires.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Wing wrote: »

I would like to comment on comments I see posted (nobody in particular) that often summarize to this:

"make content harder so tanks are required"

I disagree. this does not really work in group content (~5%), and has the complete adverse effect in solo content (~95%)

let me give a fast breakdown of why this is a bad idea and only hurts tanks further. as I have stated most archetypes have the same survivability its just that the classic tank survivability is passive rather then active. stamina and magicka dps builds have very good incoming healing because there main damage stats boost their healing, they are just required to actively heal and shield rather then passively reducing the damage.

tanks have no damage because of their focus on passive mitigation, not so for other archetypes. had to get that out of the way.

now say you increase difficulty through:

health: you buff enemy health to make combat last longer, this does not effect dps classes too much and only slightly increases their time to kill. however this makes tanks EVEN WORSE as they already have a ridiculously long time to kill and this only makes it longer. further more as tanks have poor resource regen compared to other archetypes they may in fact run out of resources and loose the fight to enemy attrition.

damage: you increase damage of enemies. this also has the worst effect on tanks. other classes can possibly still kill enemies fast enough to either not take any damage or minimize the amount of damage they take. classic tanks on the other hand lack that option and thus will be taking the most damage from this as they have a long time to kill, further, the increase in damage may make obsolete and mitigation and tank stats the tank was going for because the enemy will still kill them, thus forcing even more of a glass cannon burn style of build to kill enemies before they can hit you.

etc. anything you do via the world to try to force tanks has the adverse effect and can actually promote dps style of play.


people should WANT to play a tank style character, not feel FORCED to play a tank style character. right now the big problem with tanks is in the ~95% of solo content they just play to slow because they do no damage, and attrition is not a fun style of gameplay.

Great post. So one solution is to give tanks back their boost to damage (both spell and weapon) via Heavy Armor, which was taken away in 1.6. For more ways to get damage out of tanks, they could also add a new passive to Heavy Armor which would increase the chance to reflect an attack back on the attacker by X% for each piece of Heavy Armor worn and/or while blocking. In addition to making Heavy Armor passives actually useful in the context of the current game and for the tank role, they could also tie something like resistances (while raising or removing the mitigation cap) and/or reduced ability cost to max Health (the same way damage is passively boosted by max stam/mag; this has less to do with damage though, and more about other issues facing tanks across classes).

Also, instead of a blanket increase to all mob damage or health, what about buffing select dungeon, delve, and world bosses? And also making these bosses have more spell/armor penetration, which would make tank's higher passive mitigation more useful. I think ZOS needs something that can be somewhat easy to implement on a large scale without having to go back and redesign every boss's mechanics.

EDIT: Just saw your follow-up post:

Wing wrote: »

posting this for clarity:

tanks need damage that befits their role and playstyle:

passive damage return built into heavy armor (ala DK dragon armor) that reflects a % amount of damage taken (pre mitigation) this %damage reflect scales based on max health.

that way, to do damage a tank must invest in health, be getting hit, taunting enemies and doing their roles job, the better they do their job, the more damage they do.


this prevents damage stacking as tank damage is health dependent and not magicka or stamina. buffs heavy armor in a few ways: adds damage return, the +health will further increase that, and the mitigation and +health regen will be more usefull.

this makes tank survivability and damage both passive, good, and based on how good of a job they are doing, freeing them up to do that job. taunt enemies, position themselves, agro bosses, peel for their dps, initiate fights, block when required, etc.
if they do their job well, the survivability and damage will come second nature and thus not require them to focus on it, but on the duties their role requires.

Yea, we're on the same page. I really like your suggestions! What you said sums it up perfectly: "to do damage a tank must invest in health, be getting hit, taunting enemies and doing their roles job, the better they do their job, the more damage they do."

FatKidHatchets

I tank with a Nord Templar on PS4.

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
I can't say there is anything I like about tanking. You all don't really allow for much variation. Puncture being the only real taunt is weak.


2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
Taunt being puncture. For heavens sake you all add a set of armor to taunt with a charge but that blows a 5 piece bonus. Like any good tanks gonna do that.

Can't CC a boss also. I mean its not like we have many tricks but them being immune to everything is crap.

3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
I like reviving while tanking. Makes me the hero.

4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
PvP and dungeons with bad players. In either case you are last to die.


5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
Blazing shield from templar skiils.


6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Immovability from heavy skill line needs to last longer based on heavy armor pieces. And the passive that gives bonus armor for each piece of heavy equipped needs to be atleast trippled AND count a shield as heavy armor.

Wing

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

-snip-]"

hey thanks for the support and I'm glad you like the idea, I saw you were on the same track in your post.

I would wait to balance the world until I saw how tank buffs play out, its much more simple to add in the singular buff to heavy armor I suggested (that would have far reaching gameplay effects) then it would be to modify the world and enemies within.

that said I would not buff enemy armor pen as that counters armor (further enforcing glass cannon style of play, if armor does nothing, you stop wearing it.) rather flat damage increase would be the way to go, as that's what tanks mitigate the best.

but once again, I would buff tanks before altering the world.

paulsimonps

Something I very often say is that Tanks should not be needed cause things hit hard or that thing have a lot of HP but cause the mechanics of the boss. Look at the 2nd boss of Maw of Lorkharj, that one is impossible to do without a tank, two tanks actually. Not cause they hit hard or that they have a lot of HP but cause without two tanks moving the bosses in the right way it will be next to impossible to complete. As well, the "trash" in that Trail, I hesitate to call them trash cause each one alone is stronger than most Normal dungeon bosses, don't really hit hard but instead FAST. Tanking a guy like the Warrior is not that difficult straight up, he is slow and strong, but the bosses and "trash" of Maw hits much faster and still fairly strong making it harder to keep block up.

Or another example, the 3 "DK" bosses in vWGT, a tank makes that fight so much easier, agroing stuff away from the healer or the healer and something else away from the current target. It can be done with no tank but its easier with one which will then make people want the tank there.

The world bosses in Orsinium, the new Trial and the TG world bosses are making me hopeful for any new group content we will get, more content like that is needed, where we can't stack and burn our way past mechanics.

remraub16_ESO

I've been tanking on PC since EQ1.


What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
- Same as in any MMO, I like to focus on CC and keeping monsters from interrupting my DPS and Healer friends.

What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
- The lack of viable options in the actual tanking tree (1h & Shield)

What is your favorite encounter to tank?
- Anything that persents a challenge

What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
- Anything where it doesn't feel useful.

Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
- I've tanked as a NB from launch up until the Siphoning Strikes change, up until then, Siphoning Strikes was my most loved tool. Now I've rerolled to a DK tank and the Talons are great.

Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
- The 1H/Shield line needs major improvement. The passives are fine, but besides the actual Taunt, there's not much in there that's worth putting on for PvE tanking. Absorb Magic can be argued for, and if it's an easier encounter I can put invasion on the bar for the mobility. I'd honestly like to see more CC in the 1H/Shield line, and it would be interesting to see some magicka morph's to cultivate the magicka tanking.

Now let me rant a little
I've been an Argonian Magicka Nightblade tank since launch, and was doing great with my setup with trials and the sort up until you changed Siphoning Strike from a toggle to a cast. I can't wrap my finger around why it hampered my resource management so much, becasue on paper it doesn't look as if it should, but it deffo did.

I spent a lot of resources trying new sets/builds for my Magicka tanking, but just couldn't get back to the sweet spot.
I went over to Stamina tanking but there's really NOTHING beneficial of being a NB for stamina tanking. So I rerolled to a DK stamina tank, and wow.. the difference is rediculous. I mean, Magicka NB was working for me before the nerf, but DK stamina tank is just miles and miles ahead. Talon's alone makes it SO much more efficient when tanking trash, and the passives in Draconic Power and Earthen Heart is such a help.

It really does seem like Zenimax is moving away from the core idea of each class being equally good to fill any role, and that makes me very sad. It's becomming more and more apparent that;

DK - Tanks
Templars - Healers
NB - DPS
Sorc - DPS

And it's so sad. I would love for the theoretical idea of each class being equally viable for each role, but it really isn't, and the class passives are the real truth of that. I'd like to see improvements to Restoration Staff and 1h/Shield trees to help balance this out.

WolfingHour

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Guard, would love an ability like it that protected allies from melee hits as well. I remember when I played Warhammer Online, the Orc Tanks had an ability that when he used it he took the hits from any ally standing behind him in a short cone area. That would be cool, I can't remember exactly how it used to work but I do remember that if the enemies went around the tank then the effect would not apply so it would give the tank a reason to move around and his allies would have to keep up with him if they wanted the protection. Could be cool to see in PvP as well as PvE, IF you make it so that it can't be kept up for ever and that the AI of the mobs and bosses learned that even if they were taunted on the tank their AoE's could hit more targets if they moved around the tank and stuff, like those abilities some bosses have that hit a random target. Would hate the skill if it just make it easier to stack and burn, I hate stack and burn. Any boss where we can skip mechanics cause we do enough damage that it dies before it can use it needs to be updated in someway.

This times a million!! I like the idea of Guard, but it could be so much more awesome (especially in the way you describe, which would encourage having harder hitting bosses and more group coordination). The armor sets that have chances to intercept attacks are very 'meh,' plus I disagree with basic balance or combat features being only accessible through set bonuses. Would also like to see a version of Guard that uses magicka, but don't have any ideas what such an ability would do though...

TERA had a similar mechanich with the Lancer (dmg mitigaton tank class): party members behind a Lancer actively using block saw their incoming DMG reduced.

Had forgotten about this and it was great!

SmalltalkJava

the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

I think Vampires Mist form could be made into a nice tanking ability. It is almost there now. However the no heal/no regen aspect of it needs to be addressed. I haven't done the numbers but consider allowing heals/regen to function but just at a 80% reduced effect. So damage is reduced by 75%, but you only get healed for 20-10% of the heal that is cast on you. also allow the vampire drain to work while in mist form.

If you don't want to do both then at least allow the vampire siphon to work while in mist.

Then as a magical tank you could taunt, mist , then siphon.

efster

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?

That any class can tank. Though I'm not sure how long that's actually going to last; recent changes have made me quite skeptical. I main a NB tank but lately I've been spending more time learning to git gud at doing damage because I don't feel like there is a real future for NB tanks who aren't willing to run a very specific skill rotation.

2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?

That ZOS, while claiming that they want every class to be able to fulfill any role, continues to introduce changes to abilities that make DK the only attractive and sensible choice for difficult endgame tanking. No stam regen while blocking more or less put paid to any new sorc and templar tanks who aren't specced into stamina and running very niche builds. The upcoming nerf to SA will discourage new NB tanks while the rest of us have to rethink our gear, rotation, CP, and attribute options more or less from the ground up. The untauntable cats in MoL basically make a non-DK tank useless; asking DK damage dealers to slot chains hinders their DPS; why do that when you can just opt not to bring a non-DK tank? [Hint: make the cats tauntable FTLOG.]

3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?

I like any encounters where I can actively make decisions that will make my team's jobs easier, especially if it lets me use my class skills to good effect. For example, I enjoy the Lord Warden as he's one of the few endgame encounters where I can't win by just standing there behind my shield like a lump while keeping up my buffs and playing aggressive war horn for my team -- I can take a bullet for a teammate and survive while moving really quickly and dodging thanks to Crippling Grasp and Double Take. I can also apply Major Fracture and Major Breach without having to run up to the boss and Pierce Armour, since I have Reaper's Mark. Conversely, I actually like standing like a lump behind my shield against the Maw of the Infernal in Banished Cells with constant Harness Magicka & Shadow Barrier because it lets the DPS do their job more effectively. Et cetera.

4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?

Encounters that I don't have to tank in the first place. I actually really enjoy the Planar Inhibitor fight because it's so dynamic and relies on good group coordination, but I change into light Julianos/Kena/Torug for that fight. A true tank is not just useless but actually detrimental during the portal phases, since at v16 you need to have a long-range insta-cast attack that does over 5K single target damage to close the portals before adds swarm out. Most tanks in heavy armour with all CP specced into resist/mit/healing received/etc are not going to have that.

So basically tanks doing vWGT are more or less required to carry a second gear set for a smooth complete -- not a condition that exists for any other role, anywhere else in the game. Generally speaking, it's just demoralising, for someone whose role is to take the hard hits so the rest of the team can do their jobs, to not only be unable to fulfill that role but to be a hindrance because that is my role.

For the same reason, the Engine Guardian fight is a close second here, though at least I can taunt the sphere adds (which, unlike the Planar Inhibitor adds, only spawn 3 at a time and do not have the potential to overwhelm the team with sheer numbers).

5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?

Pierce Armour for taunting
Siphoning Attacks for resource regen
Sap Essence for generating aggro in trash pulls (and also stam regen, with SA)
Caltrops for AOE snare (though it will not be viable with my build post-SA nerf)
Dark Shades or Low Slash for Minor Maim
Harness Magicka for the all-purpose magic damage sponge and proccing Armour Master
Defensive Stance for block cost reduction and a way to reflect spells without having flappy wings

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
- increase the radius on Volcanic Rune so non-DK magicka tank builds have a viable source of area CC, but change the stun to a snare because a larger AOE stun in PVP would be too much, and maybe increase the cost too. Kind of like magicka caltrops.
- make Inner Fire not 100% crap. I'm not sure how that could be done in a balanced way but it's a crappy ability and it should stand in a corner and think about what it's doing with its life.
- make Blood Altar actually useful aside from the healing synergy opportunity. Make it increase regen on all stats, for example, not just health.
- I also really like synergies that let me help the group, not just myself. I love spear shards and Purify as much as the next tank, but I wish there were more like Conduit and Combustion. Not really a "tanking skill" but tanks are often the synergisers, and giving us more things to synergise could be cool.

paulsimonps

SmalltalkJava wrote: »

the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

I think Vampires Mist form could be made into a nice tanking ability. It is almost there now. However the no heal/no regen aspect of it needs to be addressed. I haven't done the numbers but consider allowing heals/regen to function but just at a 80% reduced effect. So damage is reduced by 75%, but you only get healed for 20-10% of the heal that is cast on you. also allow the vampire drain to work while in mist form.

If you don't want to do both then at least allow the vampire siphon to work while in mist.

Then as a magical tank you could taunt, mist , then siphon.

But why? Its super easy to get 75% mitigation. Heck just block with no gear on is 50%, then you got the sword and board passive with another 20%, Absorb Magick/Defensive Stance with another 8% and say you got somewhat good resist that's about 30-50% there as well.

paulsimonps

WolfingHour wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Guard, would love an ability like it that protected allies from melee hits as well. I remember when I played Warhammer Online, the Orc Tanks had an ability that when he used it he took the hits from any ally standing behind him in a short cone area. That would be cool, I can't remember exactly how it used to work but I do remember that if the enemies went around the tank then the effect would not apply so it would give the tank a reason to move around and his allies would have to keep up with him if they wanted the protection. Could be cool to see in PvP as well as PvE, IF you make it so that it can't be kept up for ever and that the AI of the mobs and bosses learned that even if they were taunted on the tank their AoE's could hit more targets if they moved around the tank and stuff, like those abilities some bosses have that hit a random target. Would hate the skill if it just make it easier to stack and burn, I hate stack and burn. Any boss where we can skip mechanics cause we do enough damage that it dies before it can use it needs to be updated in someway.

This times a million!! I like the idea of Guard, but it could be so much more awesome (especially in the way you describe, which would encourage having harder hitting bosses and more group coordination). The armor sets that have chances to intercept attacks are very 'meh,' plus I disagree with basic balance or combat features being only accessible through set bonuses. Would also like to see a version of Guard that uses magicka, but don't have any ideas what such an ability would do though...

TERA had a similar mechanich with the Lancer (dmg mitigaton tank class): party members behind a Lancer actively using block saw their incoming DMG reduced.

Had forgotten about this and it was great!

You know that made me think of something that could help balance it out so it wouldn't be abused for stack and burn but still viable to save your allies in crucial situations. Make the allies under your protection do less damage going out. That way when big AoE's or such comes up you can activate it and protect them and during that short period their dmg is a bit lower but their surviavability goes up, then you disable it and they go back to 100% dps again. I mean its just a thought :P

SmalltalkJava

paulsimonps wrote: »

SmalltalkJava wrote: »

the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

I think Vampires Mist form could be made into a nice tanking ability. It is almost there now. However the no heal/no regen aspect of it needs to be addressed. I haven't done the numbers but consider allowing heals/regen to function but just at a 80% reduced effect. So damage is reduced by 75%, but you only get healed for 20-10% of the heal that is cast on you. also allow the vampire drain to work while in mist form.

If you don't want to do both then at least allow the vampire siphon to work while in mist.

Then as a magical tank you could taunt, mist , then siphon.

But why? Its super easy to get 75% mitigation. Heck just block with no gear on is 50%, then you got the sword and board passive with another 20%, Absorb Magick/Defensive Stance with another 8% and say you got somewhat good resist that's about 30-50% there as well.

paulsimonps wrote: »

SmalltalkJava wrote: »

the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

I think Vampires Mist form could be made into a nice tanking ability. It is almost there now. However the no heal/no regen aspect of it needs to be addressed. I haven't done the numbers but consider allowing heals/regen to function but just at a 80% reduced effect. So damage is reduced by 75%, but you only get healed for 20-10% of the heal that is cast on you. also allow the vampire drain to work while in mist form.

If you don't want to do both then at least allow the vampire siphon to work while in mist.

Then as a magical tank you could taunt, mist , then siphon.

But why? Its super easy to get 75% mitigation. Heck just block with no gear on is 50%, then you got the sword and board passive with another 20%, Absorb Magick/Defensive Stance with another 8% and say you got somewhat good resist that's about 30-50% there as well.

paulsimonps wrote: »

SmalltalkJava wrote: »

the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

I think Vampires Mist form could be made into a nice tanking ability. It is almost there now. However the no heal/no regen aspect of it needs to be addressed. I haven't done the numbers but consider allowing heals/regen to function but just at a 80% reduced effect. So damage is reduced by 75%, but you only get healed for 20-10% of the heal that is cast on you. also allow the vampire drain to work while in mist form.

If you don't want to do both then at least allow the vampire siphon to work while in mist.

Then as a magical tank you could taunt, mist , then siphon.

But why? Its super easy to get 75% mitigation. Heck just block with no gear on is 50%, then you got the sword and board passive with another 20%, Absorb Magick/Defensive Stance with another 8% and say you got somewhat good resist that's about 30-50% there as well.

For flavor, fun,options, and something meta changing

Dubhliam

PC player.

I am going to try my best to keep it as short and simple as possible.

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
It is a role that makes the biggest difference in dungeon running. Unlike other MMOs a tank needs to prioritize threats and control the battlefield. I love how certain mechanics involve constant movement and awareness.

2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
I hate the fact that some bosses can be beaten by just standing in one place. Maw of infernal is an example of a wasted mechanic because a tank can just take all the damage by just standing in the fire rings indefinitely. This is not punishing bad tanking, and just encourages a mindless right click glue mindset. Many of the older dungeons are done in the same way - working around the mechanics with pure stats. All veteran dungeons need to be put on par with newer dungeons in terms of difficulty. Just as there are "dps checks" in dungeons, so should there be "tank checks" in place in forms of high damage heavy attacks or similar.

3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
There are many, but one of the most enjoyable is the High Kinlord Rilis boss. Or any other boss that involves crowd control and movement. Ash Titan is also a great example. In these kinds of fights I am more likely to get a praise because my tanking skills are much more likely to get noticed.

4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
Basically any boss that cannot be tanked, or does not require one. The Planar Inhibitor and The Engine Guardian practically force tanks into damage roles, while so many other boss fights can just simply be done without a tank.

5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
Needless to say: chains and talons. Crowd control is essential in proper tanking along with mitigation and resource management. Oh and that Magma Shell! I cannot count how many times that skill prevented a wipe while I was running PUGs.

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Rework Leeching Strikes into a proper tanking morph of Siphoning Strikes. Basic attacks just don't cut it for a tank. SA for NBs is okay, but that only pushes the NB tanks into a damaging role. A tank should focus more on controlling the field instead of doing damage. That is why Leeching Strikes should be reworked to be more appealing for NB tanks.
Rework Silver Leash so that is can pull any target, not just undead and daedra. Every class should be able to pull, even if it would require double casting.
Rework Trapping Webs and its morphs into a 5 meter radius ground effect - crowd control should be more accessible to all classes.
And of course - Heavy armor passives. No comment.

Personofsecrets

a person on that reddit thread has been thinking about how taunts could work in pvp interesting idea

Taunting IN PVP should be like something opposite to fear.

Current fear: player affected by fear is running away in direction opposite to person who casted it. During that he cant do anything and is out of control of his character.

Proposed taunt IN PVP: player who is targeted at taunt is allowed to move only in direction of person that applied taunt on him. During that he can attack, he can cast spells and fight normally but he can only approach the taunter.

Alternative taunt IN PVP: player who is targeted at taunt is allowed to attack only the person that casted a taunt on him. The person under taunt has his perception greatly increased thus the taunters character is greatly highlighted and clearly tagged for the person under taunt. Similar mechanic is already in game. If you have toggled on "prevent attack innocents" your character wont be able to attack while pointing crosschair at innocent person. Same could happen for everyone but the person who used taunt.

Taunt IN PVP could be either work similar to CC so you can break free from taunt with stamina and gain temporary taunt immunity or you wont be able to break free from taunt but you cant be taunted more than once per 45 seconds or something like that.

Also to preventing "taunt and run" trolling, taunting IN PVP only should reduce speed of taunter significantly, since taunt is something along "come at me bro and fight someone equal to you" and not "come at me bro.... if you can catch me".

Personofsecrets

paulsimonps wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?
Guard, would love an ability like it that protected allies from melee hits as well. I remember when I played Warhammer Online, the Orc Tanks had an ability that when he used it he took the hits from any ally standing behind him in a short cone area. That would be cool, I can't remember exactly how it used to work but I do remember that if the enemies went around the tank then the effect would not apply so it would give the tank a reason to move around and his allies would have to keep up with him if they wanted the protection. Could be cool to see in PvP as well as PvE, IF you make it so that it can't be kept up for ever and that the AI of the mobs and bosses learned that even if they were taunted on the tank their AoE's could hit more targets if they moved around the tank and stuff, like those abilities some bosses have that hit a random target. Would hate the skill if it just make it easier to stack and burn, I hate stack and burn. Any boss where we can skip mechanics cause we do enough damage that it dies before it can use it needs to be updated in someway.

This times a million!! I like the idea of Guard, but it could be so much more awesome (especially in the way you describe, which would encourage having harder hitting bosses and more group coordination). The armor sets that have chances to intercept attacks are very 'meh,' plus I disagree with basic balance or combat features being only accessible through set bonuses. Would also like to see a version of Guard that uses magicka, but don't have any ideas what such an ability would do though...

TERA had a similar mechanich with the Lancer (dmg mitigaton tank class): party members behind a Lancer actively using block saw their incoming DMG reduced.

Had forgotten about this and it was great!

You know that made me think of something that could help balance it out so it wouldn't be abused for stack and burn but still viable to save your allies in crucial situations. Make the allies under your protection do less damage going out. That way when big AoE's or such comes up you can activate it and protect them and during that short period their dmg is a bit lower but their surviavability goes up, then you disable it and they go back to 100% dps again. I mean its just a thought :P

This sounds like a path for the Guard skill to be reworked with.

Tabre

I'll start by saying that tank used to be my main role in ESO and it was all I ever did. I've tanked every boss, every trial, every dungeon in the game multiple times with my first (and main) character which is a Dragonknight. However recent changes to the game, namely the stamina regen while blocking nerf, have COMPLETELY ruined tanking for me. I used to enjoy having the resources to contribute to my group in a meaningful way, and with this change, I can no longer do that the way I enjoy and instead have to focus on my stamina bar which is not fun or compelling gameplay for me. I went from being an indestructible iron wall of protection and controlling force on the battlefield for my group, to a mere damage sponge, reliant on the healer to sustain. I've stopped tanking completely and have converted my main character to DPS as tanking is no longer fun in this game.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?

I enjoy controlling the battlefield with with crowd control, stuns, mob positioning, and supporting my group with supplemental damage, buffs/debuffs, or heals. I enjoy being an iron wall of protection for my group and an island of resources to sustain myself when out of healing range or when the healer dies.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?

Not being able to self sustain is a huge problem with tanking now. In crowds of enemies, I now lose resources at an incredible rate and am completely overwhelmed and reliant on the healer for support. All of my effort goes into just keeping my stamina bar up and my eyes are constantly fixed on my stamina bar instead of on the battlefield. Also, the removal of the over-taunt mechanic really dumbed-down tanking. Keeping a clean and consistent taunt rotation when tanking more than one enemy was part of the fun and now the consequences for failing in that area have been removed.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?

Sanctum Ophidia - Possessed Mantikora: Fun mechanics and heavy hitting boss. Very enjoyable to tank.
Aetherian Archive - The Mage: Heavy hitting axes make this one very fun to tank.

I also enjoy the intricate mob pulls of the veteran dungeons. Chaining and controlling enemies was a blast.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?

Planar Inhibitor is terrible for tanks. We are forced into a DPS role, which we perform poorly at since we are forced to spec our champion points and gear for tanking. There is a similar problem on bosses like Grobel in Darkshade Caverns. I feel almost completely useless as a tank on both of these encounters.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?

My number one favorite skill as a Dragonknight tank is chains. Pulling enemies around and planting them in place with talons offers the tank amazing control of the battlefield. It is a shame that such a great skill constantly bugs out saying "Target is too high or too low." even when the target is clearly on the same vertical plane as the tank with no obstacles between.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

Please fix chains. And please give us back our stamina regen while blocking. If these things were fixed, I would give tanking another go.

Personofsecrets

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Calling all Tanks!

The Dungeon and Gameplay teams would love to get some feedback from all of you damage sponge, block mastering, mitigation kings out there. This thread is going to mainly cover PvE encounters specifically in group dungeons or Trials. If you like to play a tank in ESO and want to have your voice heard, or you don't and want us to know why, please answer the following questions. Please make sure you mention if you primarily play on console or PC.

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

Thanks a lot for your feedback. We look forward to hearing what you have to say!

Start

1. What do you like best about tanking in ESO?
2. What do you like least about tanking in ESO?
3. What is your favorite encounter to tank?
4. What is your least favorite encounter to tank?
5. Of the tools you have for tanking, which is your favorite?
6. Of the tools you have for tanking, which would you like to see improved the most?

1. Most Joyful

- I enjoy the theory crafting. As of late the theory crafting just seems not to matter very much, but I have had quite a bit of fun testing many different tanking builds and gathering data to help others. Despite how limited tanking can be and how trivial changes to a build may be, I have to say that tanks do seem to have many more cool options than DPS. I think that tanks are some of the most active on the forums in looking for help and it is real special when they come to me with questions.

here are just a couple of the older threads I made which show that passion I've had.

2. Frustrations

- The development team has looked past many important ideas of us tanks and catered the game to non-tanks as a result.

Start "rant"

Sure, maybe extended chains is getting better for the Thieves Guild Patch, but that is only after tanks initially said that the changes to the skill would be a pain in the bottom. And maybe this skill is getting better, but there is still no acknowledgement of the too high or too low bug.

Maybe the range of the Obsidian Shard range did get buffed like I called for, but why was my thread dedicated to the skill and making it better stealth deleted instead of posted on by a member of the ESO team?

Why do we have such communication barriers with the developers? Why would we get nerf after nerf in the form of losing our stamina or attributes? Why do Tempering Alloys and Hakeijo runes cost so much as to make tanking gear the most expensive gear by far to craft? Why aren't mechanical downsides of tanking while bar swapping or role dodging ever addressed? Why do we lose base stats when changing bars? Why doesn't the Lord Warden Undaunted set give physical resist a la the change which significantly buffed the Moleg Kena set? Why does something like the Jolting Arms set exist? Why, to many tanks dismay, was the Black Rose set changed? Is stamina regeneration really supposed to suffice as a set-piece bonus now? Why doesn't the tank earn loot from Molag Bal's Simulacrum when the tank virtually does tons of damage or healing through their buffs and debuffs. Why the heck was the aggro table stealth changed? Why was Maelstrom Arena made the way it was? Why weren't tanks suggestions administered to the Maelstrom Sword when it was very clear that tanks thought it was very bad? Why is the Pariah set a worse functional copy of the Footman set? The list of frustrations do not end just here.

End "rant"

Yes, I'm a bit long-winded at this point, but this list is just a list of some of the notions that keep us tanks cross. I admit that we can be a bit accusatory or even inflammatory at times, but this bad relationship with the development team is tough to overcome. We try and try to communicate our ideas – everything said in this thread has been said somewhere else multiple times, and that is the most frustrating part of tanking. It is the part where we can go without satisfaction for so long, nerfed, not talked to much, and the game moves on with more anti-tanking content like everything is okay. I will end this frustration section with a video. Don't we deserve better than what the video depicts?

The video depicts feedback about Dragon Knight chains which was submitted at the start of the IC patch. This bug depicted existed since before that, but nothing has been done to fix this bug despite tireless feedback about it over a time period spanning multiple months.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya2AIA6sn5I

Don't get me wrong, I am glad for the recent development team's efforts in reaching out to tanks. I would have never thought that this type of thread would ever be made, but a relationship isn't mended over night.

3. Enjoyable Encounters

- I enjoy the Molege Kena fight and previously the Wisp Mother battle because they make it more fun to be a tank with all of the pertinent tanking skills, but also contribute to the fight in other ways (I use destruction staff on both of these boss fights)

In the following video I depict myself tanking Moleg Kena. I'm enjoying the constant engagement, helping out the team, and the changes in pace that occur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSIJ3HYrSMg

- I enjoy the Possessed Mantikora fight for it's intensity. This guy probably does some of the most damage in the game and though I rely on having good healers, I can also really tell how important my damage mitigation is during the battle.

- I previously have enjoyed the Mage fight due to the resource management necessary for holding onto many axes. I dedicated an entire forum post to talking about how to rotate through Axes efficiently one time because of how much fun I had doing so. Check out the next video to see me tanking a couple of AA bosses.

This video was made back when the stamina regeneration nerf was announced but not yet implemented. I originally made the video to show how silly the developer opinion about tanks was at the time, but feel free to advance the video to 1:40 so that you can skip the ESO Live segment and watch me have fun instead. On a side note, also notice how the reason that I die is because I was forced into not blocking for a split second.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9c2L6hNy7Y

- The Lord Warden has a nicely designed mechanic where I can tank an attack of his by standing in between it and the enemy that he targets.

- Hyath the Battle Master also used to be an excellent fight because I had to tough out a minute of play by myself. Coming back alive felt good as the group depended on me to play well lest our run be ruined. Now high DPS numbers have destroyed that strategy and that is fine, but what takes it's place? Speaking of content being made trivial, I once put together a tournament about making content harder by giving ourselves artificial tanking constraints. The tournament failed, partly from lack of interest, and partly from my lack of ability to generate interest, but I got a real gem of a video from the experience which shows how far we have to go to make the game more fun.

In this video I play with others who I am not that familiar with. They take a long time to deal damage to enemies and that was perfect for my challenge of getting as many Daedroth up at the same time while still successfully holding aggro of them plus the boss and surviving the whole ordeal. This tanking was much fun, but only under artificial constraints which aren't found in most of the normal game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZNCIKuo2pg

- I also enjoy PVP when I get an equal fight. That means I enjoy PVP when opponents aren't abusing Hardened Ward or Dark Cloak which gives them all of the defense that I have as a tanky player, but with much less of the damage cost.

4. Non-enjoyable Encounters

- Veteran Maelstrom Arena is anathema. Content doesn't have to be designed for tanks per se, but at least designed to not actively keep tanks out of the fun.

The following video depicts what I believe to be a tanky player destroying a tough fight by playing outstandingly well. If the Hyath fight had been made like the first boss of vMA, then this type of play would have been far less likely to achieve because there would be a harder damage race barrier. Indeed, we don't really see players go into vMA with heavy armor and the idea that they will outlast the enemies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4UVIisJj8

I couldn't finish the first round of vMA with my tank which I min-maxed to be survivable, but also put out okay damage. The build is great in PVP, but fails vMA because of damage race mechanics which DPS players easily surpass as though they are trivial. Why I can't at least defile the first boss I find strange. I proceeded these "tank" runs by going in with a PTS template DPS, crushing earlier rounds, and leaving with a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe I shouldn't harp on tanks with regards to this content because I think that nobody except for about 10 people enjoy the place. That is very odd considering vMA should have been Wrothgar's crown (store) jewel - a two or more person arena would have made it just that good (and still could) and let tanks have much more enjoyment out of this content.

- Planar Inhibitor and Friends (Grobul and the Engine Guardian) are crappy to play against. This has been talked about enough. I am willing to make changes to my build, strategy, and skills, but I find it sad when I literally have to do something other than tank to be of value.

- Adjudicator and Friends (too many to name) are lame to play against. From the Storm Atronarch, to Stonebreaker, to the Adjudicator, and to more, there are bosses that I dislike because they basically don't do anything. They offer no challenge in theory or action that needs to be taken. I exist simply to hold the boss in place so that the DPS can parse a higher number and when the boss does do a high damaging attack, then there is nil that I can do about it because it is an aggro free ability.

- The Transmuted Kwama is another boss of interest. The Transmuted Kwama pre-no stamina regeneration while blocking was one of my favorite fights because it involved holding multiple enemies in a rotation, but after the stamina regeneration nerf things changed. Now the fight is the epitome of what is wrong with the tanking vision laid out for players during the stamina regeneration nerf discussions. Against the Kwama a player either holds block or risks being affected by an attack that literally drains a huge amount of their stamina. This is a no win situation from a resource management perspective and it just isn't fun to be in the catch-22 of blocking being the best strategy for many fights (yes, I enjoy blocking and like it being a big part of tanking) and the developers visions that blocking shouldn't be done all of the time. The following video shows just how unhelpful it is for the developers to see problems with players "just holding block the hold time."

At the 2:20 mark of this video, the tank gets killed because they chose to light attack the boss rather than continuously hold block. I heard that they were attempting to gain more ultimate regeneration by doing that light attack. Even though players don't actually have to attack like that to gain ultimate, that is just how the story about that death goes. This shows the catch-22 that I just wrote about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcntMLJ8ir0

5. Favorite Tools

- Chains, Talons, and Eruption,despite all of them being nerfed at one time or another, form the cornerstone of tanking with a DK. Crowed control abilities are tremendously valuable for many trash pulls, some boss fights, and especially in PVP.

- Battle Roar and Helping Hands are fantastic tools for resource management. Yes, casting Earthen Heart abilities can be repetitive, but if it were not for these resource tools which make blocking not feel terrible, then I would not be that interested in tanking.

- The combination of the Fortress and Bracing passive effects are something that I appreciate. I think that development really carefully considered block cost mitigation during its initial creation. It is frustrating that diminished returns severely affects this stat, but these two passives, and especially so in tandem, are what really make sword and board or heavy armor valuable.

- The biggest tools that I look for when trying to advance my game play are those with which I can help myself and make my role more efficient, but also help my group by bolstering the value of their role. You can really see me playing that way in the Aetherian Archive video that I linked to earlier. Obsidian Shard heals the group and gives me resources, Molten Armaments ( Molten Armaments, the skill going back to how it used to be and is similar to Chains in that way(I wonder if there is a pattern to show why DK abilities are getting changed only to be changed back to resemble more closely original versions of said abilities)) buffs my group and gives me resources, Heroic Slash effectively heals my group and self while providing more ultimate (unlike the Maelstrom Sword & Board which do practically nothing). I used to enjoy spamming healing springs to build up my ultimate as it gave me something to focus on during easier encounters.

6. Tools to Improve the Most

- Bar swapping feels terrible. I can rarely have access to 6 whole other skills out of the fear that I will die for swapping bars which causes me to drop my block for a split second. It may sound rare, but all tanks experience these bar swap deaths way more often than they would like to admit. Just ask their teams who wipe when this problem occurs. There is a similar issue with roll dodging in that at the end of a roll dodge, but before the dodging tank can physically be blocking again, there is a time when they can get hit for unblocked damage. Now when I think about roll dodging in order to gain mobility, rather than dodging an attack, I literally wait until after a recent attack happens so that I can roll dodge immediately after and not risk being hit during those vulnerable frames that I cannot block. These inhibitions due to vulnerability frames are convoluted and bad for how the flow of play feels.

- An extension to the bar swap issue is that bars feel very constricted for space. We love our passive effects and our buffs, but having to use numerous passive effect granting skills, a taunt, a buff, and a resource management skill leave us with little room for using skills that we would like to run. Man oh man would I like an extra skill slot or five. The following video shows the issue of constricted bars.

This video shows the impressive battle where console players brought down the serpent for the first time. Look at what the tank uses though. It may be the best for the tank to use those skills and I have used or continue to use very similar looking bars to this day, but there just isn't very much to do with these bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BiGJXPaedM

- Some of the Sword and Board or Heavy Armor passives are just plain unexciting. Battlefield mobility is lame – blocking slowing speed down is fine, but I would like to see battlefield mobility done away with and have the same blocking speed (as though we all have battlefield mobility) applied universally. That would free up a passive spot with minimal damage or cost. Deadly bash is atrocious for the same reason that nobody is using the Jolting Arms set (dealing damage with bash attacks isn't cool). Just outright reduce the cost of bashing for everyone and do away with the Deadly Bash passive in exchange for something else. Constitution gives too few resources in a post-stamina regeneration nerf world. The Sword and Board passive should probably also increase spell damage considering how many players want to tank as a magicka user.

- I don't want to think about how diminished returns work and especially not for the complicated damage mitigation statistic. I think that the diminished returns were computed well and make sense, but they are hard for players to understand and many players simply don't understand that diminished returns on damage mitigation, or block cost mitigation, for that matter even exist.

End

Thank you to everyone for posting in this thread so far. I will tag the usual crew to come and read what I have to say, @Wing @MaximusDargus @usmcjdking @Sensesfail13 @ThatNeonZebraAgain @Tabre .

Let me know the parts of my thinking that you are on board with as well as where you think I make error in my judgment. @ZOS_Finn , enjoy the feedback and let me know if you need any help.

Dubhliam

I've seen many people say that Grobull forces tanks into DPS.

That just might be true now, but the mechanics that are in place would require a tank present IF vDC was harder than it currently is.
That fight is all about controlling Netchlings. The small ones can be rooted and snared, the big ones cannot. The big ones should be taunted. If the difficulty was on par with vWGT, the heavy attacks from the big Netchlings would one-shot any non tank.

I remember while I was low veteran rank running this dungeon with PUGs and this fight was challenging when the group damage does not wipe adds instantly.

A rework of Veteran dungeons is really overdue, Champion Points have been in this game for how long now? At the current state, 75% of the original dungeons can be done without a tank.

Bashev

@ZOS_Finn As a tank I want the synergy skills that I activate to be scaled on the original caster resources not on mine and when somebody use a synergy from my skills then it should be based on their resources. So the synergy should scale with the higher resource from caster and activator.