Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Chelos

Ishammael wrote: »

You can still heal. Maybe try more than just mash one button to heal now.

Ok, not only you still don't get it but you're also trying to be offensive.
Two fails in one.

Ishammael

Chelos wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

You can still heal. Maybe try more than just mash one button to heal now.

Ok, not only you still don't get it but you're also trying to be offensive.
Two fails in one.

Explain how the change to BoL *prevents* you from healing.

danno8

Dyride wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Am I wrong in thinking that Restoring Focus is now a huge buff skill for tanking or stamplar PVP?

I don't have the PTS downloaded yet, but the changes for Focused Healing to give Major Mending should effect stamina heals.

So Restoring Focus will give Major Mending+Minor Vitality+ Major Resolve/Ward+Minor Protection. Couple that with Empowering Sweep+Minor Maim from Deep Slash+Defensive Stance and you have incredible mitigation.

Just to put that in perspective, that is +30% Healing done +8% Healing received and +16% mitigation from one skill (Restoring Focus).

You have to stay in the circle for the minor protection and minor vitality. Channeled focus let's you roam about freely for the magicka regen (tested and confirmed on the PTS).

I mean it's a buff, but the skill still has the same huge drawback as before, reducing mobility in a game where mobility is so important.

Same reason why Healing Ritual, Remembrance are never (hardly ever) used.

bosmern_ESO

I still believe radial sweep needs to be changed. All classes have a target ultimate (requires a target to use it, Death stroke, dragon leap, overload) except Templars. I'd like to see it get changed to single target but still does the pulse.

With this patch Templars have become more viable for solo but at a cost of losing their group presence. We're seeing possibly seeing DK's take over for main support classes when that was all Templars had, I'm ok with BoL because it changes up combat, a lot. But that was really our only good heal (other than purify). Ritual is a channel and you can easily get interrupted casting which means people wont get the heal they need and die.

Restoring light really needs some changes to make templars wanted in groups in this patch just as much as other patches, with things like purge, rapids, barriers, etc only being for group members its a lot harder to play solo.

Tankqull

BalticBlues wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

I can heal Pug Dungeons on a DK with a resto staff.

Congratulations. Exactly how many hours did you heal PUGS this week?
I do it on a daily base for training, and I know resto staff cannot handle all situations.
The more dynamic content gets, and ZOS wants to increase the dynamics,
the less efficient resto staff is and the more you rely on BOL.

Ishammael wrote: »

BoL is simply not that important.

BoL is the most important skill for Templars.
Pro players as Deltia even recommend putting BoL on both bars.
I don't do this, because I see the expensive BoL only as a fallback.
A fallback that has to work 100%, not just 75%.

steadfast ward is the perfect substitution for BoL when using a resto staff, i faced not one situation where BoL(and reusing it) performed better than a combination of resto staff abilities.
or in other words there is no situation not handable by restostaff.
actually now a stam healer is as effective as a BoL user now...

BalticBlues

Ishammael wrote: »

Explain how the change to BoL *prevents* you from healing.

Is that really so difficult to understand? Imagine vet Darkshade:
Sudden Boss poison at once damages the entire group of four people.
If you press the BoL button today, you heal 100% of people for a bit.
If you press the BoL button on PTS, you only heal 75% of people.
One guy gets no heal at all. The nerf prevents his/her healing.

As a result, PUGS will die eaiser.
As a result, healers will need to run more backup heals (like resto RR).
As a result, healers will have to spam BOL more often.
As a result, healers will run out of magicka sooner.
As a result, healers will do less backup damage.
As a result, healers will get even less helmets (depends on DPS).

As a result, it will suck even more to be a Templar.
So far, only PvP did suck, because most Templars suck 1v1 vs. a Sorc/NB.
PvE was what kept Templars like me in this game.
Once PvE will suck too (PUG DDs usually blame the crappy healer), what will be left?

So far, I like playing with random groups. It serves as training and feels like a good daily deed to help average or even bad players survive their pledges. If ZOS nerfs the most important emergency healing, I probably won't be doing it anymore, because the wiped PUG groups will blame me, not the nerfed BOL.

Faulgor

Ishammael wrote: »

Nothing was taken away from stamina builds. They will hit as hard as they ever did. Balanced Warrior passive is still really good. Now stamina builds have some new sets to play with. The Bowplar might even make a return.

Taken away? No, not really. But Stamplars had very little to begin with, and other stamina builds have now clearly surpassed them. They have simply more regen, all access to Major Brutality outside of Rally and potions, and except for Sorcerers better stamina morphs.

Ishammael wrote: »

They will hit as hard as they ever did.

Considering the new physical resistance CP passives, that is absolutely false.

Ishammael wrote: »

Balanced Warrior passive is still really good.

Not as good as having Minor Brutality like Dragonknights, or even Major Brutality.

Ishammael wrote: »

Now stamina builds have some new sets to play with.

Which ones in particular? Clever Alchemist because potions are our best source for damage buffs?

Ishammael wrote: »

The Bowplar might even make a return.

As a Bowplar, I'd really like to know how you imagine that to happen.

Reorx_Holybeard

I took a look at the changes to Backlash (specifically Purifying Light) to see exactly what the changes were since it wasn't obvious to me from the patch notes alone.

On Live:

• 45% extra damage
• 16307 stored damage
• Total Damage = 7340
• Heals for 2651 every 2 sec for 7.2 sec

On PTS:

• 23% extra damage (-51%)
• 24398 stored damage (+50%)
• Total Damage = 5612 (-24%)
• Heals for 2873 every 2 sec for 6 sec (+8%)

So it seems there is a net loss of DPS around 25% with the changes. The skill is still "ok" for extra healing but the noticeable loss of DPS makes it even less worth it to slot and cast. In theory the extra stored damage means you'd have to cast it less often but 24k damage is ridiculously low these days (less than a 1 second for a decent group, and a couple seconds for a half-decent templar solo).

Unless someone can explain how the change might benefit us I think I'd prefer going back to the original skill. Either that or increasing the stored damage on the new skill by a lot (100k?) to make it more worthwhile to cast. I wouldn't mind if you'd increase the range on the heal too.

kaalmoth

Ishammael wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

The complaints about templar nerfs are hysterical. Across the board, almost all damage sources were buffed.

For stamina builds there aren't a single ability that got damage buff and outside PvP knocback removal won't be noticeable.

Nothing was taken away from stamina builds. They will hit as hard as they ever did. Balanced Warrior passive is still really good. Now stamina builds have some new sets to play with. The Bowplar might even make a return.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

The complaints about templar nerfs are hysterical.

You do not seem to know the meaning of the word "hysterical".
The reactions and statements in this thread are sober, based on years of experience.

PUGS will die in dungeons because of the PvP BOL nerf.

I like healing random groups scaled to V16.
I did it just yesterday over 3 hours just for fun, result: ca. 80% success, 20% failure.
With the massive BOL nerf, the result could be 60% success, 40% failure.
This will needlessly give people a miserable PvE experience.

I wonder how often the PvP BOL critics run PvE dungeons with PUGS?
With the 25% BOL nerf, I will probably no longer heal random groups.

Hysterical, "deriving from or affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion."
So yeah, hysterical. Very few posts in this thread are "sober"

I, too, have played Templar pretty extensively.

Regardless, I can heal Pug Dungeons on a DK with a resto staff. BoL is simply not that important. There are many, many options, more so even for a templar: e.g. Repentence and Purifying Ritual (which gives major mending now!).

The damage buffs for magicka templars are excellent.

You just like zeni missed the point of everyone who is complaining now. There was room for creativity and we got few usefull fixes, few uncalled damage buffs, a huge nerf to our best healing active skill and nothing but nerf for mobility (rune focus).

When DK gains a shield to every allies around, we gain 1 little meter for our ultimate. When DK gains major brutality and major sorcery for himself and allies, we gain 1 % per enemies hit for sun shield.

danno8

Also, if you do the math, Vampires Bane has less DPS than reflective Light.

On my Templar: Refelctive = 6148/6.5 = 946 DPS
Vampires Bane = 10296/11.7s = 880 DPS

And Reflective Light also hits for more up front for some reason. ZoS is it really that hard to make the single target version of this skill do more damage than the multi target version? Come on now...

Lettigall

Ishammael wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

The complaints about templar nerfs are hysterical. Across the board, almost all damage sources were buffed.

For stamina builds there aren't a single ability that got damage buff and outside PvP knocback removal won't be noticeable.

Nothing was taken away from stamina builds. They will hit as hard as they ever did. Balanced Warrior passive is still really good. Now stamina builds have some new sets to play with. The Bowplar might even make a return.

Stamplars have one of the worst DPS and no mobility. To be clear I mean sustained DPS not burst DPS.

technohic

I think the nerf to BOL is the least of the nerfs. The real nerfs are probably actual fixes to bugs that we shouldn't have had as an advantage in the purify preemptively voiding attacks, and it looks like the magicka return of rune focus sticking on you outside of the circle might have been fixed.

Still think it doesn't really matter. From when I watch the few exceptional Templars that do well in PvP who 1vx; typically they have one thing in common. They have LOS to dance around and heal up and then some used Purifying Ritual like mad. So, you have to be pro at that; which you could do the same easier with most other classes. Templar just lacks a real proactive defense with the loss of blinding flashes and the worthlessness of blazing shields size and duration and of course the purifying ritual bug we never should have had. And Templars lack escape and mobility. Both of those things are key in PvP and is the one missing component that takes Templars from really good in PvE to crap in PvP. We still don't have any of that.

Also, why buff solar flare and dark flare yet still nothing for barrage? Barrage is the one that sucks.

Why not have all morphs of eclipse be able to apply to all targets and reflect along with their effects but just not reflect damage if CC immune?

Sweep is an ultimate and should have at least the range of steel tornado.

Ishammael

Faulgor wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Nothing was taken away from stamina builds. They will hit as hard as they ever did. Balanced Warrior passive is still really good. Now stamina builds have some new sets to play with. The Bowplar might even make a return.

Taken away? No, not really. But Stamplars had very little to begin with, and other stamina builds have now clearly surpassed them. They have simply more regen, all access to Major Brutality outside of Rally and potions, and except for Sorcerers better stamina morphs.

Ishammael wrote: »

They will hit as hard as they ever did.

Considering the new physical resistance CP passives, that is absolutely false.

Ishammael wrote: »

Balanced Warrior passive is still really good.

Not as good as having Minor Brutality like Dragonknights, or even Major Brutality.

Ishammael wrote: »

Now stamina builds have some new sets to play with.

Which ones in particular? Clever Alchemist because potions are our best source for damage buffs?

Ishammael wrote: »

The Bowplar might even make a return.

As a Bowplar, I'd really like to know how you imagine that to happen.

Bow Sets:
- Marksman set: +8% bow damage, -5% all stam costs. (this is amazing, btw)
- Hawk's Eye set: +5% bow damage, -5% bow costs.
And now you can wear both.

There are several other stam sets listed here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245167/all-the-new-gear-sets#latest

Major Brutality can come from 2H bar or from potion. Minor Brutality is unique to DKs. I would take Balanced Warrior over Minor Brutality any day of the week.

RE: CP passive
While there is now a physical damage mitigation star, you also get poison and physical consolidated. For bows, that will be a DPS increase.

EDIT: Empower using magelight is back for stam builds.

Ishammael

kaalmoth wrote: »

You just like zeni missed the point of everyone who is complaining now. There was room for creativity and we got few usefull fixes, few uncalled damage buffs, a huge nerf to our best healing active skill and nothing but nerf for mobility (rune focus).

When DK gains a shield to every allies around, we gain 1 little meter for our ultimate. When DK gains major brutality and major sorcery for himself and allies, we gain 1 % per enemies hit for sun shield.

Not gonna dispute the changes to Radial Sweep and Sun Shield were laughable.

The damage buffs, combined between direct bonuses to skills and CP consolidation, will make the Templar fearsome in a way that they never have been. The cost is some group utility.

BoL/HtD is still the absolute best self-heal in the entire game -- it give templars the option to run DW on your damage bar in contrast to DK which, even though they received quite a few buffs, will still run sw/sh to block.

Prox --> Dark Flare --> Charge --> Puncturing will do crazy damage. Even the ranged DoT will be good, enabling stand-off pressure in conjunction with Dark Flare and your thrown spear.

Faulgor

Ishammael wrote: »

Major Brutality can come from 2H bar or from potion.

Well that's exactly the point. Stamplars are still shoehorned into 2H for the most essential DPS buff, which is not the case for any other class. While NBs have Major Brutality on a rather unpopular skill, they at least have better synergy with potions.

I suppose if we don't want to use 2H we have to always run with our DK buddies so they can buff us and hold our hand.

technohic

Seriously guys; if you want to be a DPS templar; BOL had to have a change. Not just for balance, but also so people would not just expect you to be the healer by default when rolling with a group. It's still great at self preservation.

Van_0S

Morathras wrote: »

Skills are still not good
BoL nerf was not needed.

What BoL got nerfed ?!

Edit:
Please zenimax, remove this class if you are so fond of nerfing it to the ground.

Dovahmiim

@Ishammael
I think I should probably clarify something here. BoL is only needed for very specific high end content, such as vICP and trials. Especially the new trial. The notion that you need BoL at all to heal most content in game is absurd, it's arguably easier to heal most end game content as a magicka NB! DK is of course also viable. This is assuming you will be dealing DPS concurrently, otherwise, Templar is the best class for pure healing, we have the best tools for keeping people alive. However, the fact that we are the 'best healers' is whats holding us back from being equally as competitive as NBs, magicka Sorcs, and DKs (current meta) for things like DPS in PvE, or PvP (assuming we are not heal botting).

Fast-forward to ESO if the changes on the PTS go to live. We lose this role as the best class for keeping people alive... suddenly we could arguably be as low down as third... that's a hell of a jump. In addition, while magicka DK gets several buffs that move it closer to the glory days of PvP (RIP 1.5), several mechanics tweaks leave Templars in last place.

To best illustrate this, we would have worse heals, worse damage, far worse mobility, and by extension far worse survivability when compared to magicka Sorcerers, this is also largely true for the stamina counterparts for each class as well.

What I'm getting at here is that for what we have lost comparative to other classes in the PTS, we gain nothing of significance at all. I would be 200% okay with the changes to BoL if they gave us an equal trade off in proactive survival abilities for our class.

danno8

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

I took a look at the changes to Backlash (specifically Purifying Light) to see exactly what the changes were since it wasn't obvious to me from the patch notes alone.

On Live:

• 45% extra damage
• 16307 stored damage
• Total Damage = 7340
• Heals for 2651 every 2 sec for 7.2 sec

On PTS:

• 23% extra damage (-51%)
• 24398 stored damage (+50%)
• Total Damage = 5612 (-24%)
• Heals for 2873 every 2 sec for 6 sec (+8%)

So it seems there is a net loss of DPS around 25% with the changes. The skill is still "ok" for extra healing but the noticeable loss of DPS makes it even less worth it to slot and cast. In theory the extra stored damage means you'd have to cast it less often but 24k damage is ridiculously low these days (less than a 1 second for a decent group, and a couple seconds for a half-decent templar solo).

Unless someone can explain how the change might benefit us I think I'd prefer going back to the original skill. Either that or increasing the stored damage on the new skill by a lot (100k?) to make it more worthwhile to cast. I wouldn't mind if you'd increase the range on the heal too.

@Reorx_Holybeard You're not understanding how it works (not that I blame you, the tooltip has always been terrible.) The "extra damage" is referring to how much of the damage taken is stored as extra damage. My tooltip says 18% so if I do 50,000 damage in the time Purifying is active the damage stored will be 50,000*.18=9000 damage explosion.

In other words for me to hit my maximum damage cap of around 20,00 on the PTS, I (or me and my allies) would need to do around 111,000 damage in those few seconds.

So they increased the cap, but made it much harder to reach that cap. It is now really a group skill.

Aspi90

Can Templars still just heal spam themself up to full health in no time? This is so annoying...

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

BalticBlues wrote: »

ESO Templar 2014 - not the fastest, but robust and fit for all terrains


ESO Templar 2015 - redesign for better PvP balance


ESO Templar 2016 - redesign for best PvP balance


ZOS, you really think it will be fun driving PUGS through dungeons with the new car?
What happens in vet dungeons like Darkshade with the bosses toxic air?
25% less receivers for BOL? The blame will be on us drivers, not on the crippled car...

Sorry, I feel betrayed. The 2016 Templar is not anymore what was sold to us.
Therefore, ZOS, please offer all Templars a free class change. Enough is enough.

I don't often get a good laugh when reading these forums.. but this was absolute gold.

NiclasFridholm

My Templars (3 V16) is gonna get retired if this is the final class rebalance. Might do the same, you have dissapointed one to many times with this...

acw37162

Ishammael wrote: »

The complaints about templar nerfs are hysterical. Across the board, almost all damage sources were buffed.

The only "nerfed" skill was BoL -- and yeah, it was needed. 28m, insta-heal, 3 targets, ignore LoS, 15k+? Please. Even with only 2 targets its still good.

Other stuff:
1. Healing ritual is still bad. Skill needs to be scraped.
2. Radial Sweep should probably be 9m at least. It would be a great ultimate if so.
3. The eclipse changes seem wonky.
4. Will toppling charge remain working? Only time will tell.

Magica Templars are plus in these patch notes.

Stamina Templars may have just moved to the worst class in the game by a rather large margin, actually.

Soris

As long as main heal of bol remain same, im fine with its current nerf. We got some dps increase in return which is always nice.

I think that bol nerf is the least important since it basicly still does the same thing. And if you happen to run in solo or duo/trio you wont notice the nerf very much. So it's fine (for me at least and similar playstyles) I can ofc see it's bad for big groups but big groups have already too much adventage over everything.

The ones i put in the first page is much more important individual issues than this bol.

Joy_Division

Ishammael wrote: »

The complaints about templar nerfs are hysterical. Across the board, almost all damage sources were buffed.

The only "nerfed" skill was BoL -- and yeah, it was needed. 28m, insta-heal, 3 targets, ignore LoS, 15k+? Please. Even with only 2 targets its still good.

Other stuff:
1. Healing ritual is still bad. Skill needs to be scraped.
2. Radial Sweep should probably be 9m at least. It would be a great ultimate if so.
3. The eclipse changes seem wonky.
4. Will toppling charge remain working? Only time will tell.

Ish - not true. Purifying Ritual "fix" is a more significant nerf than losing a secondary heal. In fact, it is the biggest nerf to the play-styles of all 4 classes IMHO. These defensive capabilities were just taken away without any thought given to compensation.

I think if you read past the emotion, most of the posters here are not so much complaining that templars are nerfed again, it's that many of our skills that we repeatedly told ZoS are awkward, wonky, or just plain useless have not been addressed at all. Sun Shield, healing ritual, radiant aura, radial sweep, etc., all this stuff was inefficient, redundant, substantial choices that few people used and all of them are still just that. Like, why do we even come on the forums?

I think most templars here recognize we will be better offensive players and while that suits the playstyle of many of the better known templar PvP players, the other aspects of the class, particularly the defensive, took a major hit - and nothing about the meta since 1.6 was defensive at all.

We are better glass cannons. But did the people who rolled templars want to play a glass cannon? I don't think so. Hence, much of the emotion in this thread.

eliisra

technohic wrote: »

Seriously guys; if you want to be a DPS templar; BOL had to have a change. Not just for balance, but also so people would not just expect you to be the healer by default when rolling with a group. It's still great at self preservation.

People having been saying those exact words since the major templars heal nerfs started prior to 1.6.

You cant have top healer and good dmg+burst, in one class.

The problem is how Zos just keeps nerfing templar healing more and more, without making up for it in the utility, burst- and dps department. It's also what they seem to be doing so far with this patch. Very minor dps buffs, meaningless buffs and changes to some skills people hardly use. Big nerf to group healing.

Just imagine sorc dps next patch with elemental expert also boosting their Crystal Fragments, class DoT's as well as Proxi .

Meanwhile templar may have lost their spot as top group healers as well as not being good enough in other departments.

I pre-orderer Black Desert after reading the patch notes lol. If this goes live I rather just take a break to avoid enrage. Check again when Dark Brotherhood gets out. ESO is potentially a great game after all

Mr_Nobody

The ones who complain about the changed have definately not played a magicka one on PTS.

I went to duel/test area earlier and 1shot people left and right. Some even called me a hacker and exploiter.

Jabs - very good
Dark Flare - OP AF
Jesus Beam - Back to 1.6

What else do u want?

Soris

Well yes, i can see from here that dark flare will be nerfed before this going live. It just one shots people when you stack buffs. Plus heal debuff plus self empower. Crazy good.

acw37162

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

The ones who complain about the changed have definately not played a magicka one on PTS.

I went to duel/test area earlier and 1shot people left and right. Some even called me a hacker and exploiter.

Jabs - very good
Dark Flare - OP AF
Jesus Beam - Back to 1.6

What else do u want?

Some stamina Templar attention

Tankqull

eliisra wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Seriously guys; if you want to be a DPS templar; BOL had to have a change. Not just for balance, but also so people would not just expect you to be the healer by default when rolling with a group. It's still great at self preservation.

People having been saying those exact words since the major templars heal nerfs started prior to 1.6.

You cant have top healer and good dmg+burst, in one class.

The problem is how Zos just keeps nerfing templar healing more and more, without making up for it in the utility, burst- and dps department. It's also what they seem to be doing so far with this patch. Very minor dps buffs, meaningless buffs and changes to some skills people hardly use. Big nerf to group healing.

Just imagine sorc dps next patch with elemental expert also boosting their Crystal Fragments, class DoT's as well as Proxi .

Meanwhile templar may have lost their spot as top group healers as well as not being good enough in other departments.

I pre-orderer Black Desert after reading the patch notes lol. If this goes live I rather just take a break to avoid enrage. Check again when Dark Brotherhood gets out. ESO is potentially a great game after all

well you can, have a self heal (honor the dead) supposed for DD aimed players and a group heal (Breath of life) reducing dmg dealt by the caster for the next 15sec by a hefty amount(30%) alongside the heal.