Upcoming siege changes in next major update

skillastat

Again this change isn't decided around smaller vs larger number debate.

This change will not let small groups take on large groups in a fight.... That will only be fixed when they remove things like AOE caps

This change is designed around punishing zerg balls when fighting pug zergs or defended keeps.

Yep.

I think this change will make PvP more responsive. Zerg balls will have to think twice before stacking, spread and watch their feets

Makkir

I would think you would want to adjust the cost of siege after making these changes. I would even eliminate the ability to purchase with gold. Increase the AP quite a bit and you can someone what control what's on the battlefield. Also, you will give PVP'ers another avenue to earn gold (selling siege on guild stores).

Makkir

All you small groups whining about these changes could also learn how to not stand in siege....

Erondil

Makkir wrote: »

All you small groups whining about these changes could also learn how to not stand in siege....

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Jhunn

Erondil wrote: »

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Judging by his signature he's a trader. I wouldn't bother

Makkir

Jhunn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Judging by his signature he's a trader. I wouldn't bother

Up until 3 weeks ago, I have spent 100% of my time in Cyrodiil on Azuras. Not that the leaderboards matter, but I typically place to earn gold rewards except last cycle I got purple because I started farming vets for head gear. But that does indicate the amount of time I spend in Cyrodiil earning AP.

Don't stack on the flag then. You don't need to stack on the flag to keep it from turning...The last time I checked, the flag room was a lot bigger than the siege circle.

Joy_Division

Makkir wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Judging by his signature he's a trader. I wouldn't bother

Up until 3 weeks ago, I have spent 100% of my time in Cyrodiil on Azuras. Not that the leaderboards matter, but I typically place to earn gold rewards except last cycle I got purple because I started farming vets for head gear. But that does indicate the amount of time I spend in Cyrodiil earning AP.

Don't stack on the flag then. You don't need to stack on the flag to keep it from turning...The last time I checked, the flag room was a lot bigger than the siege circle.

You better check the back flag room again....

Erondil

Makkir wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Judging by his signature he's a trader. I wouldn't bother

Up until 3 weeks ago, I have spent 100% of my time in Cyrodiil on Azuras. Not that the leaderboards matter, but I typically place to earn gold rewards except last cycle I got purple because I started farming vets for head gear. But that does indicate the amount of time I spend in Cyrodiil earning AP.

Don't stack on the flag then. You don't need to stack on the flag to keep it from turning...The last time I checked, the flag room was a lot bigger than the siege circle.

The last time I checked, you can hit every single corner of the flag room (not with one siege but 2 easy)
L2Siege

Satiar

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain doesn't want to spread out . Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

Here, fixed that for you.

Oh right, I'll spread out while moving through a choke, why didnt I think of that?

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously claiming that sieges inside keeps are dangerous as it is right now? You must be kidding me. You are one of the few groups who don't even bother going straight on flags when you get inside an inner. Often I see your group running up the stairs to the back flag to the inner breach, and up the stairs again doing your lil maneuvers for 5minutes straight, killing people NOT because it is necessary and because you risk wiping BUT for the show and for the extra APs, even if you will never admit it.

Siege does absolutely nothing and bring no threat whatsoever to your 4-5 barriers rotation, purge and regen maneuver spammers 24men group. Don't even try..

Wait what?

How I take a keep depends entirely on who is inside it. There are several ways to play a keep take. You can push through to flags and force an enemy to engage you there, you can go up far or near side stairs and attempt to control the top, you can paintrain around to beat down resistance before taking flags. I'll never deny trying to get my guys some AP and kills, but serious keep takes with serious resistance are entirely different.

Siege on its own isn't going to kill me, obviously. I have 24 people specced to heal, purge and maintain the raid. if any random person could put siege on me and ruin me, that'd be silly. What ruins me in keep takes is a well-coordinated group using their defensive choke to force me into a bad situation. Honestly, the main guild that does this now is Haxus. Most other groups try to bomb me on back flag, or on front flag, or at the top of the stairs-- meh. I'd say 90% of my keep wipes come from getting ult-dumped in the breach. All it takes is one good burst of DPS and CC there, and suddenly everything catches up: the oils, the meatbags, the fire trebs/ballista. And than we die, and it's tragic.

Can most people do it to us? Yes, but they don't. You have no idea how many times I've been defending a keep or outpost on DC and seen everyone huddled upstairs and pounding the breach with siege as if that's supposed to do something. Siege is a tool, a force amplifier, something you use to make your group's defensive position stronger. Buffing it to godly levels because you can't be bothered to learn how to use your other tools (your group) in addition to using point and click siege is just silly.

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously trying to claim a breech is extremely dangerous right now for a Ball Group?

/facepalm

Against anyone who knows what they are doing, yes. Turns out when you work together as a team and employ basic tactics a heavily defensible position can be ... wait for it... easily defended.

You have a choke you can clog with siege and dump ultis on that your enemy MUST pass through. It's a defenders wet dream. That you don't recognize this is why I mostly don't trust your opinion in group play, as you clearly dont get even basic things like this.

Having personally defended keeps with my "Zerg" of 8-12 people precisely because of siege and convenient chokes, I just don't get what the hell you've going on about

The fact that your medium group successfuly defended a keep against larger numbers doesn't prouve anything. You simply faced disorganized pugs / groups / guilds. You didn't faced Vehemence.

I mean, sure. I think you sometimes forget Vehemence wasn't always this way. We didn't clamor for siege buffs and nerfs to group skills, etc., to beat the guilds and groups that were beating us: we learned from the groups that were winning, and learned to win ourselves. Bombing the breach with siege as backup has been extremely effective for us as a group, and it's something I remember learning from Crystalize. He used to go down on the mid-stairs, meatbag across the way and at the top, oils on the lip, and just pour DPS on people coming in the breach. It doesn't take a lot to break the purge/barrier spam of a group if you do it right, I've seen good raids melted when a well-timed leap or meteor broke up their cycle and they never recovered from the debuffs/oil/fire and subsequent damage.

I'm all kinds of fine with siege getting a buff. Eh, whatever. I can manage that. Sure, why not. But the buff amounts we're talking here are insane. The response to "spread out" is also kinda hilarious. Sure, I'll spread out my 20 people when running into a group of 40-50, that's gonna work out just fine. Surely, we won't be separated and dragged down by superior numbers except OF COURSE we will because that's the whole idea of an elite raid in this game: a collection of players that play together in such a way that their effectiveness is greater than the sum of all parts. Once you remove a group's ability to play as a team than you're not going to win outnumbered anymore.

Lava_Croft

The fact that a lot of the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Satiar

DividendGamer wrote: »

I don't see this a too great of a solution to most of the problems that is wrong with pvp.

Satiar wrote: »

As I see it, these changes are basically the end of organized guild play in ESO. To some that will not be taken as a downside at all.

I'll play the patch and see, but eh, it looks extremely unappealing.

This seems like the perfect thing for organized guilds to capitalize on the most to me.

They can coordinate placement, marshal their forces better, know who and how and with what the people and setups they are playing with and the damage output they are all capable of etc.

Most of my guys find the Point and Click style of play very unappealing and I don't blame them.

Also, I've played the siege meta before. It sucks. Back in the day when Wall of Elements could be stacked and exploded all at once with a purge, the meta was essentially to set down meatbags and spam walls. Either you purge and die or you stay heal debuffed and die. Alacrity was stupid brutal with that tactic, I don't think I ever died so much with Havoc as I did fighting them during that meta.

Beyond my pure distaste for that kind of play, what we're talking about here is wayyyy beyond how stupid the purge/walls/meatbag meta was. Right now siege is something you can spec against. Siege Shield, purges, rapids, etc. You know people will siege and so you counter it. The buffed siege is quite literally uncounterable. You can't purge it, block it. You cant even shield through it because barrier is getting the nerfhammer too. You can't heal through it because you can't purge a debuff. At the far end, you won't even be able to move because of Oil cats and and stam reduction siege. Not being able to have control of your character, not being able to heal, not being able to move, that's EXTREMELY frustrating from a gameplay perspective, and I blame no one who doesn't want to play through that.

I don't have a doubt we could probably adapt to this meta, most likely by changing how aggressive we attack things and using siege ourselves. We'll definitely be giving it a try. But if it goes back to the way it was, where every fight is just running around with unpuragable bricks on your feet and siege spam, I swear to god I'm done with it lol. Not doing that again.

Satiar

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The fact that a lot the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Funny how all the people who don't want to learn how to beat a good guild come out of the woodwork to cheer a further dumbing down of ESO PvP.

But this has been #1 ESO PvP Strategy since day one: Can't beat a group/guild/person? Don't bother getting better at the game, get even by complaining until the devs tilt the game in your favor!

It should say something that most everyone who actually leads a group and understands game mechanics saw these changes and went, "Hold on now," while those cheering it are mostly those who die to said groups. Because again, easier to have the devs change the game than to get better at the game, right?

Lava_Croft

Satiar wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The fact that a lot the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Funny how all the people who don't want to learn how to beat a good guild come out of the woodwork to cheer a further dumbing down of ESO PvP.

But this has been #1 ESO PvP Strategy since day one: Can't beat a group/guild/person? Don't bother getting better at the game, get even by complaining until the devs tilt the game in your favor!

It should say something that most everyone who actually leads a group and understands game mechanics saw these changes and went, "Hold on now," while those cheering it are mostly those who die to said groups. Because again, easier to have the devs change the game than to get better at the game, right?

Because not agreeing with you obviously means whatever you say in your failed attempt at insulting me.

You just confirm what I said, good job. Have fun crying while I have fun adapting.

Septimus_Magna

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

I dont see how this will affect smaller/spread groups, its not like you have a big chance of hitting a couple people who are spread out and dont stay locked on siege.

As for the resource reduction numbers I definitely agree, 5k stam loss will restrict magicka builds to a single break-free, 2.5k stam reduction would seem fair to me. Either that or make it scale off the resource pool, for example 15-25% stam/mag reduction. The most important thing is that this effect should not be reapplied until the 6 sec snare duration has ended.

The (un)purgeable healing debuff is another difficult matter, in my opinion there are 3 options.
Option 1: unpurgeable, with a relative small healing debuff value, something like 20-30%.
Option 2: purgeable with an average healing debuff value, something like 40-60% with increased cost for eff. purge.
Option 3: purgeable, with a relative high healing debuff value, something like 50-75% with current cost for eff. purge.

Organized groups will run eff. purge anyway so I think the best way to go is to increase the cost significantly and give it a different effect.

Erondil

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The fact that a lot of the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Kris in a nutshell:
-Sees people reasoning and explaining why a change would advantages numbers further more.
-Jump in and tell people to learn to play without any counter argument whatsoever.


Stay as you are Kris, useless

Lava_Croft

Erondil wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The fact that a lot of the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Kris in a nutshell:
-Sees people reasoning and explaining why a change would advantages numbers further more.
-Jump in and tell people to learn to play without any counter argument whatsoever.


Stay as you are Kris, useless

Go ask GANK ME about the insights I provided him surrounding Outpost defenses. I'll talk to you again in a few months after the new siege is implemented, when you adapted and are doing very useful things by farming pugs at Sejanus more than ever before, all because of the new awesome siege equipment.

Also, some great arguments you got there. Much pot and kettle.

[PROTIP] Instead of being scared little boys and girls that can only think about what the enemy will do to them, think about what you can do to the enemy.

RoamingRiverElk

Xsorus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

1. He said nothing about removing battle spirit change..He's looking to reverse the change by about 30%...meaning instead of a 50% reduction; we'll now have a 20% reduction on siege..It'll do less damage then 1.6....

2. You can try stacking more healers to counter it...But really you can stack all the healers in the world..you won't be able to heal through a 75% heal debuff very well..Not to mention its not what is going to kill you...It'll be the Lighting ballista and Oil catapults that will do that.

3. Yeap..It'll be dangerous to stack up and get hit by a bunch of Oil Catapults...So don't stack up.

4. Considering your past take on issues (Such as Sorcs for example) and the fact that you run in a Zergball..I don't think you should be commenting on other people in this thread and what they think...You're not exactly the bastion of good judgement on balance or impartialness.

1. Going over the post again, I see that was probably a misunderstanding on my part. If it's just a 30% dmg increase of current values, it's a non issue to me, though honestly I prefer siege being more of auxiliary power that helps you kill ppl rather than just a flat out 'lots of dps' that kills ppl outright. Something like lowering the base dmg of stone trebs and instead giving them something like an armor shatter or shielf piercing dmg component.

2. I'm not saying stacking heals is going to make it possible for a group to heal through it (if Brian keeps it a 75% debuff), I'm saying that that is what the blob groups will try.

3. My point about Oil Cats and the Stam/Mag imbalance between oil/lightning siege has nothing to do about people 'stacking up'. My point is about how it disproportionately punishes Magicka builds.

4. What do your personal attacks on me have to with siege changes? Like, at all? My past take on issues? Do you really want to go down this road?

- I pointed out how Unchained was insanely OP w/ the original 8 sec duration.
- I pointed out how Talons was stealth nerfed and how stupid that was.
- I pointed out how dmg shields negate destructive touch CC, something that still hasn't been fixed.
- I pointed out how Maelstrom 2 handers having a 14k dot was broken.

Do you want me to keep going? I know you've always harbored a particular hatred for Bolt Escape, both it and roll dodge have been nerfed into the ground. You used to endlessly dodge roll and I used to constantly Bolt Escape.

And your whole 'zergball' QQing, please just stop before you dig yourself any deeper. You fought my smallman plenty when you used to run with Lowbei. You know how I play, claming my input is moot because I'm somehow a 'zergger' is about the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. Or perhaps you would like to consult ~Teargrants YouTube~
┬┴┬┴┤(･_├┬┴┬┴ ?

2. They can try all they want; it will not change the outcome
3. It screws low stamina magicka builds...but at the same time they're able to cast defensive measures and use offense while the stamina user will not...Its going to hurt all sides is what i'm saying...
4. Unchained was gutted to 3 seconds....which is rather crappy now... But pretty much everyone agreed 8 seconds was fairly long; Not sure your point on Talons...as anyone would agreed with that; same with damage shields (which you've defended multiple times) negating Destructive touch CC..the only reason you even care about it not working against Destructive Touch is because it personally affects you....And as for Maelstrom 2 hander..I honestly don't think it would of been that broken..Its a 7k dot in PvP which is ok I suppose...and we all know how dots currently are....and its now a what? 2k dot? 1k in PvP...yea real nasty that is now *grin*.....

You say i fought your small many plenty (which i don't remember you in anything less then 12 as far as groups go)..But I remember you in your zergball far more..Which happens to be what you're running in right now...Far more then you've soloed lately...Your opinion on the matter is frankly suspect..Which is why I called you out on talking down to others in this thread like we don't see why you're complaining in the first place.

3. I can dodge roll a *lot* as a stamina build with 2 cost reduction glyphs, lots of stamina regen and still use magicka for defense (casting wings every other skill use for example). And still have reasonable weapon damage as well. The same could be said about stamina nbs and cloak. And, I'm pretty sure, about templars and blazing shield (if only the shield was strong enough, which it isn't) or eclipse. Or stamina sorcs and the magicka version of their speed buff / hardened ward (even though it's smaller as a stamina build).

The problem with oil catapult is that it will impact magicka DKs and magicka templars MUCH MORE than any other class combination because their max stamina is lower, they have less regen, they already have to use blocking for mitigating some of the huge damage they're getting when they're outnumbered because they can't escape (with cloak, bolt, shadow image), they're in the middle of the action and their run speed isn't faster either. So in fight that first incoming oil catapult is MUCH more difficult to avoid than as a stamina build or as nb/sorc. And once they get hit by it, they have an unpurgeable snare that will realistically prevent them from escaping the second hit (unless they can somehow drop off the keep, which means leaving the fight/getting fall damage). At which point, game over.

It's a fact that smaller groups (whether it's small as in, five people or less, or medium groups like 12), will be getting sieged a lot more by enthusiastic people who love to outnumber their enemies. Add to that, nonpurgeable healing debuff - which, once again, affects DKs and templars the most since they don't have escape mechanisms nor effective shields (especially against stamina builds, of which there are tons these days in Cyrodiil)... Well... yeah... buffing magicka DKs eh? DKs getting buffed by getting more powerful dots eh? Yay, that's going to help a ton.

Turelus

How would people feel about efficient purge being self target only? So if people want that spammable immunity they have to bring it themselves and use their own resources. Then have the healing variant which is already costly be the AoE one.

I know this is a little more skill based and @Wrobel 's area but seems rather relevant to this thread and the issues on hand.

Turelus

Erondil wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

All you small groups whining about these changes could also learn how to not stand in siege....

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Change flag ranges to be the entire of a room (ground floor) within keeps and the entire open courtyard of a resource? Would this help spread the fighting out a bit (rather than super balls on the flags themselves) and let people contest the flags easier without being forced into one death zone area.

Erondil

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The fact that a lot of the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Kris in a nutshell:
-Sees people reasoning and explaining why a change would advantages numbers further more.
-Jump in and tell people to learn to play without any counter argument whatsoever.


Stay as you are Kris, useless

Go ask GANK ME about the insights I provided him surrounding Outpost defenses. I'll talk to you again in a few months after the new siege is implemented, when you adapted and are doing very useful things by farming pugs at Sejanus more than ever before, all because of the new awesome siege equipment.

Also, some great arguments you got there. Much pot and kettle.

[PROTIP] Instead of being scared little boys and girls that can only think about what the enemy will do to them, think about what you can do to the enemy.

The fact that we may adapt and turn this to our advantage doesnt mean it doesnt help the outnumbering side more. If you read the whole 20 pages I'm pretty sure you can find at least 25 posts with great arguments to prove my point. Sure its not a big proportion but still, cba repeating the same thing over and over.

If we don't share how we could use new sieges in our advantage, it doesnt mean we didnt think about it, we might just not want to share everything on the forums. I still dont have a solution tho, how do we do to not let a keep/outpost turns, if we cant go on the flags because there are 4 sieges aiming them and we have perma major defile?

Erondil

Turelus wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

All you small groups whining about these changes could also learn how to not stand in siege....

Very clever advice man, especially in a game where defending a keep outnumbered is about stacking on one place (flags) to not let it turn. *clap*

Change flag ranges to be the entire of a room (ground floor) within keeps and the entire open courtyard of a resource? Would this help spread the fighting out a bit (rather than super balls on the flags themselves) and let people contest the flags easier without being forced into one death zone area.

It might help indeed, dunno if it would be enough tho.

Turelus wrote: »

How would people feel about efficient purge being self target only? So if people want that spammable immunity they have to bring it themselves and use their own resources. Then have the healing variant which is already costly be the AoE one.

I know this is a little more skill based and @Wrobel 's area but seems rather relevant to this thread and the issues on hand.

I would rather cap it at 3-4, so in a group of 4 I can still purge mark and stuff on my mates without having to go full regen build.

DeanTheCat

Turelus wrote: »

How would people feel about efficient purge being self target only? So if people want that spammable immunity they have to bring it themselves and use their own resources. Then have the healing variant which is already costly be the AoE one.

I know this is a little more skill based and @Wrobel 's area but seems rather relevant to this thread and the issues on hand.

Problem with that is that is only usable for Magicka builds (I'm not asking for a stam purge, so put down your pitchforks), and will further cement the utility disadvantage that Stamina builds face in PvP. It also means that there will be less purges available from allies for Stam builds to purge of siege effects, as a lot of people will most likely still take the efficient morph.

Perhaps instead of making Purge single target only, make it work like a Templar's Cleansing Ritual. This means that if an ally uses a purge near you, you have to manually hit X in order to purge yourself. This purge synergy could have a longer cooldown as compared to the Templar version and use separate cooldowns, but it still allows nearby allies have a chance of purging negative effects.

Another idea is to creat a few "Tiers" of siege effects. For example, let's take the meatbag.

Tier 1: 25% healing reduction, 3 seconds
Tier 2: 50% healing reduction, 6 seconds

When a purge is used, all Tier 2 effects currently applied are turned into Tier 1 effects which are unpurgable. Being hit again by the same type of siege refreshes the duration and reverts the effect back to Tier 2. This allows siege to still have some impact on the battlefield, while still allowing a counter to be used to dampen the effect of the impact.

Lava_Croft

Erondil wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The fact that a lot of the so-called pro's instantly start crying without even taking the slightest moment to think about how they can adapt to the situation is just cute.

l2p.

Kris in a nutshell:
-Sees people reasoning and explaining why a change would advantages numbers further more.
-Jump in and tell people to learn to play without any counter argument whatsoever.


Stay as you are Kris, useless

Go ask GANK ME about the insights I provided him surrounding Outpost defenses. I'll talk to you again in a few months after the new siege is implemented, when you adapted and are doing very useful things by farming pugs at Sejanus more than ever before, all because of the new awesome siege equipment.

Also, some great arguments you got there. Much pot and kettle.

[PROTIP] Instead of being scared little boys and girls that can only think about what the enemy will do to them, think about what you can do to the enemy.

The fact that we may adapt and turn this to our advantage doesnt mean it doesnt help the outnumbering side more. If you read the whole 20 pages I'm pretty sure you can find at least 25 posts with great arguments to prove my point. Sure its not a big proportion but still, cba repeating the same thing over and over.

If we don't share how we could use new sieges in our advantage, it doesnt mean we didnt think about it, we might just not want to share everything on the forums. I still dont have a solution tho, how do we do to not let a keep/outpost turns, if we cant go on the flags because there are 4 sieges aiming them and we have perma major defile?

I think the changes to siege equipment will really benefit you when farming pugs in Sejanus. There's not much pugs can do at your back flag once you've set up 3 pieces of siege equipment on the front flag, covered by your aoe blob. Sure, their siege will be more dangerous to you, but they are still pugs and therefore won't ever be as efficient as an organized group. Just getting them to siege a wall with the proper equipment is a chore.

Of course, all of this is mostly useless if they don't change anything about the current AoE cap on abilities. You will still get overrun and barely damage any of them.

ToRelax

So, while @Wrobel is now using "hit & run tactics" on the forums (nice term whoever brought that up in this thread), @ZOS_BrianWheeler seems to be giving his best in listening to the PvP community. And as a response mostly gets back a rediculous amount of whining and complaining, wich is really sad.

I'll go over some complaints I read in this thread so far, though I can't possibly quote them all now, this thread just exploded since yesterday.

1) "This is going to help larger numbers!"
If everything in this game was the fight between the small numbers and the large ones, maybe. You need to specify that more, this is definitely not going to help zergballs (ball groups, organized raids, bombgroups, guildgroups, just dont tell me I'm insulting you by telling you you're a zerg, okay?). It is true that this change will make it easier for a spread out random zerg to break up a (for whatever reason) tightly packed enemy group be it a big or small one. It is also true that smaller groups can make use of siege less consistently than larger ones, just like it is with Maneuver, Barrier, Purge, rezzing and a lot of other things. Not everything is designed to help small groups wipe large ones, but it's not the other way around either. This change is to make keep defense easier and to help anyone against stacked up zergballs. As far as I'm concerned that's a positive thing.

2) "But right now I can take a well defended keep with only 12-24 players, heavily outnumbered, and it may not work after this change!"
Well it's nice for you how you can just run past defended breaches and choke points, but not so much for your enemies, right? What do you suppose them to do, stack up like yourself? Maybe that's just not very enjoyable for them. You know, maybe they are only there because they don't really want to lose the keep you are trying to take, that doesn't mean they want to adapt to the same zergball meta you already have.
But enough of today, let's try to remember how it was a year ago, in the (at that time already far too rare) case that no invincible zergball came along. It was dangerous to go through a breach with oils and meatbags up. And I don't mean that "dangerous" as some people in this thread seem to interpretate it, as something that gives an advantage to the enemy blob, or in that some group members could die to gankers waiting for the barrier to go down. I mean if you went in without someone spamming Purge and another one Healing Springs, you'd probably die. And that was good, because keeps should be hard to take, especially if you are outnumbered (though we don't need any artificial advantages to larger groups, tyvm @Wrobel ).
So, you would have to be a bit creative and adapt to the situation. Some tactics/strategies we used included sieging from different sides, sending in NBs/Sorcs to take out siegers, using DK tanks to draw sieges and archers on them so the rest could break through, send one or two players to siege the next keep while keeping up the siege, to storm the keep, die, bloodport and take the next keep once it's flagged. And yes, I consider that to be more fun than making one breach and running on the flag, maybe even clearing upstairs.

3) "Storming a choke point or breach IS dangerous for my relatively small zergball... But how are we to survive after this change, you have to get into AoE range of each other to pass..."
...wich is the #1 reason that should make a choke point an easily defensible position. But as I already told you, there are counter tactics to that. For example you can send in those players who can take the heat for a moment, so the others can rush in thanks to a poorly timed AoE burst. Or you can send in those players who can get through on their own, to draw out the fight behind the gate or to focus down siegers, so the rest can follow. Or you could actually make the way to the next gate and attack the enemy from behind (equivalent to 2nd siege against a keep).
And one more thing to think about. When we first had raids at tthe start of the game, we were glad when we stormed a breach together and more than 2/3 of the players actually survived so they could get a hold on the upper level. It seems in this thread everyone sees that as equal to a wipe...

4) "Both to take and defend a keep you need to stack on the flag, you can't avoid siege than always."
That is correct, and the fact that the attacking force can turn the flag just by superior numbers without killing anyone alone should be enough to tell you what the problem is here. Tip: it's not the siege.
The flag system, as well as strenght of NPCs need to be overhauled/adjusted, but that doesn't justify holding back another change that is designed to combat zergballs as well. The game is not in some sweet spot right now where we better don't touch anything. I hope all who need to agree on that will do so.

5) "The siege is more dangerous to magicka players with low stamina pools." "No, magicka can use more utility and shields, stamina will be screwed with less mobility!" "Does anyone think of Templars and DKs, too? " More imbalance!

You know, even if some or even all of this is true - even if your character will be at a distinct disadvantage with these changes - can you not rather make suggestions about how to buff and diversify certain classes/builds with these changes in mind? Instead of attacking the lucky neighbor who is playing a less effected spec atm?

Here is a suggestion for @Wrobel and @ZOS_BrianWheeler :
- Make Efficient Purge a self purge that only effects the caster. Also let Efficient Purge, as well as Cleansing Rituals and it's morphs and syngergy, remove secondary siege effects.
This would give everyone a way to counter siege. This is a magicka skills and costs a skill slot, but with skillful play and a Templar in the group, everyone can make use of the synergy, and this won't be a problem because it's not spammable. The problem we have today is largely because the existence of an instant spammable group purge.
I also thought about letting Purge have no effect during the 6 seconds of reduced debuff time. But I don't think it's a good idea because of the way debuffs work in this game. So if you get hammered with debuffs, Purge would be useless and never remove the one debuff you actually want to get rid of.

Edit: You can also make Shuffle work vs oil catapults.

6) "I don't want to stay on some siege all the time and press left mouse button every 12 seconds. That's not engaging gameplay!"
That's such a stupid argument, sorry. Firstly, sieging has big drawbacks and is mostly useless in the open field against someone who knows what he is doing. Is killing bad players more fun using Overload or Surprise Attack? Then, you are making yourself a target by sieging. If the enemy players are clever, they will try to take you out, making it a dangerous job if you are outnumbered, so you have to be on your guard. And thirdly, one player can use several siege weapons on cooldown, wich isn't that easy if you are also getting attacked. Instead of this argument, you could also say a big ranged AoE nuke with a medium to long cooldown time is a boring thing (except that it's less dangerous to use, because siege forces you to sheathe your weapon and operate form a very specific location, plus it takes time to turn it around). And I can't see any reasoning behind that.
I can, however, understand if some people would like siege to be restricted to keep/outpost/resource areas. I do not have a problem with being able to use them anywhere myself though, and even if this would be changed, ZOS should increase these areas to include all the places players commonly siege from.

I also think @frozywozy had some good ideas earlier in this thread.

And if I forgot some more complaints, feel free to send them in for a discussion. Thank you.

RoamingRiverElk

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

How would people feel about efficient purge being self target only? So if people want that spammable immunity they have to bring it themselves and use their own resources. Then have the healing variant which is already costly be the AoE one.

I know this is a little more skill based and @Wrobel 's area but seems rather relevant to this thread and the issues on hand.

Problem with that is that is only usable for Magicka builds (I'm not asking for a stam purge, so put down your pitchforks), and will further cement the utility disadvantage that Stamina builds face in PvP. It also means that there will be less purges available from allies for Stam builds to purge of siege effects, as a lot of people will most likely still take the efficient morph.

Perhaps instead of making Purge single target only, make it work like a Templar's Cleansing Ritual. This means that if an ally uses a purge near you, you have to manually hit X in order to purge yourself. This purge synergy could have a longer cooldown as compared to the Templar version and use separate cooldowns, but it still allows nearby allies have a chance of purging negative effects.

Another idea is to creat a few "Tiers" of siege effects. For example, let's take the meatbag.

Tier 1: 25% healing reduction, 3 seconds
Tier 2: 50% healing reduction, 6 seconds

When a purge is used, all Tier 2 effects currently applied are turned into Tier 1 effects which are unpurgable. Being hit again by the same type of siege refreshes the duration and reverts the effect back to Tier 2. This allows siege to still have some impact on the battlefield, while still allowing a counter to be used to dampen the effect of the impact.

Magicka builds need to invest in stamina management if they don't run in huge groups, sacrificing damage. I don't understand why stamina builds are so unwilling to invest in magicka management. It's a choice. It's perfectly doable to have a stamina build that also allows one to use efficient purge relatively often. Purge even gives more magicka regen when it's slotted.

Enodoc

Many people have said that to avoid the siege debuffs, don't stand in the siege. This is being countered by "but you need to stack on flags" and "but I'm going through a choke point". Have you considered, perhaps, that this is actually the point of the siege debuffs? You need to decide whether to hold your position, or to leave the area for a (relatively short) period of time and then go back. For example, if you're on a flag, leave the flag to avoid the siege, then go back to it. If you're going through a choke, back up to avoid the siege then go for it again.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

8. Each one takes up an inventory slot

At one point, sieges were supposed to stack to 5. I wonder what happened to that idea:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Siege equipment can be stacked to five in the inventory (with the exception of forward camps and mercenary contracts).

This is from Patch Notes 1.1.2, May 2014. I haven't found any patch notes saying this was changed, but it's clearly not the case currently.

DeanTheCat

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

How would people feel about efficient purge being self target only? So if people want that spammable immunity they have to bring it themselves and use their own resources. Then have the healing variant which is already costly be the AoE one.

I know this is a little more skill based and @Wrobel 's area but seems rather relevant to this thread and the issues on hand.

Problem with that is that is only usable for Magicka builds (I'm not asking for a stam purge, so put down your pitchforks), and will further cement the utility disadvantage that Stamina builds face in PvP. It also means that there will be less purges available from allies for Stam builds to purge of siege effects, as a lot of people will most likely still take the efficient morph.

Perhaps instead of making Purge single target only, make it work like a Templar's Cleansing Ritual. This means that if an ally uses a purge near you, you have to manually hit X in order to purge yourself. This purge synergy could have a longer cooldown as compared to the Templar version and use separate cooldowns, but it still allows nearby allies have a chance of purging negative effects.

Another idea is to creat a few "Tiers" of siege effects. For example, let's take the meatbag.

Tier 1: 25% healing reduction, 3 seconds
Tier 2: 50% healing reduction, 6 seconds

When a purge is used, all Tier 2 effects currently applied are turned into Tier 1 effects which are unpurgable. Being hit again by the same type of siege refreshes the duration and reverts the effect back to Tier 2. This allows siege to still have some impact on the battlefield, while still allowing a counter to be used to dampen the effect of the impact.

Magicka builds need to invest in stamina management if they don't run in huge groups, sacrificing damage. I don't understand why stamina builds are so unwilling to invest in magicka management. It's a choice. It's perfectly doable to have a stamina build that also allows one to use efficient purge relatively often. Purge even gives more magicka regen when it's slotted.

I can purge negative effects with my cloak easily, and I have put CP into Magicka cost reduction and regeneration (As well as using magicka regen drinks) to help further sustain my self purging. However, not every stamina based player is a Templar or a Nightblade, and the cost of Efficient Purge for them will be too high to properly sustain, especially since it doesn't offer any secondary effect (Invis for Cloak, Cleansing Ritual removes 5 effects) to the caster.

It's kinda the same thing as expecting a Magicka build to spam something like Rapids/Caltrops/Circle of Protection/Immovable. They simply don't have the resources to pull it off, even when dedicating a significant portion of their power to doing so.

Turelus

Enodoc wrote: »

Many people have said that to avoid the siege debuffs, don't stand in the siege. This is being countered by "but you need to stack on flags" and "but I'm going through a choke point". Have you considered, perhaps, that this is actually the point of the siege debuffs? You need to decide whether to hold your position, or to leave the area for a (relatively short) period of time and then go back. For example, if you're on a flag, leave the flag to avoid the siege, then go back to it. If you're going through a choke, back up to avoid the siege then go for it again.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

8. Each one takes up an inventory slot

At one point, sieges were supposed to stack to 5. I wonder what happened to that idea.

I'm one for the changes but I have to agree with some of the players making the point about flags and stacking. I don't think this is an issue which can be fixed by siege changes alone. The siege changes will work, if a bunch of other things are done. However alone and in current build of skills/flag ranges/AoE.

As others have said, it's easy to say "clear the keep before you stack a flag" but that's very hard in the current game build because players can (and are) resurrected with ease and speed. It's not uncommon on the EU servers to see entire raids back up and fighting within 20 seconds if left alone.

For a smaller group to fight already outnumbered (this doesn't have to be typical small groups, this can be 24 vs 48) they won't have the numbers to keep everyone down long enough to keep sieges down. This isn't a direct issue regarding the siege but as I said above, sieges under these changes could create death zones where no one can stand without just being obliterated.

I think the idea of larger flag capture zones is a good one (of course I do I said it!) so that even with sieges placed and shooting towards the flag groups can use the cover offered by walls and line of sight to protect themselves from the sieges.

babanovac

Any buff to siege weapons is welcome as they are currently completely useless.

Erondil

Enodoc wrote: »

Many people have said that to avoid the siege debuffs, don't stand in the siege. This is being countered by "but you need to stack on flags" and "but I'm going through a choke point". Have you considered, perhaps, that this is actually the point of the siege debuffs? You need to decide whether to hold your position, or to leave the area for a (relatively short) period of time and then go back. For example, if you're on a flag, leave the flag to avoid the siege, then go back to it. If you're going through a choke, back up to avoid the siege then go for it again.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

8. Each one takes up an inventory slot

At one point, sieges were supposed to stack to 5. I wonder what happened to that idea:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Siege equipment can be stacked to five in the inventory (with the exception of forward camps and mercenary contracts).

This is from Patch Notes 1.1.2, May 2014. I haven't found any patch notes saying this was changed, but it's clearly not the case currently.

But you cant leave the flags when there are at least 10 ennemies inside, otherwise they will flip the keep and the battle is lost. Also in a keep fight when you're heavily outnumbered sometimes there are sieges hitting wherever you go (oils above posterns and maingate flag, 3+ meatbags/ballista hitting the back flag from outside the breach, 2-3 sieges upstairs too just in case etc...)