Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Satiar

if the changes go through as stated its really going to be a numbers game. More numbers is more siege, end of story. Still not sure how keeps will work, you can stack a whole faction inside one and just siege all entry points. In the current meta I have a *chance* of taking keeps from opponents that heavily outnumber me, I don't really see that being possible in the future. The idea of stacking is unity, focused heals and focused dps moving as one to overcome larger but less organized resistance. For all the hate it gets, stacking is how you beat large groups with a small group. Removing that means more numbers = win, and that's a sad thing to think about.

Satiar

frozywozy wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

And yet, another player running in large groups complaining that it will affect more smaller groups.

In the meantime, dozen of small group players have been giving thunderous applause to the changes.

Would not be the first time players shot themselves in the foot by clamoring for changes without understanding how it would *** them over.

Mostly, I assume, cuz they're not thinking about themselves getting ruined by enemies abusing the numbers game they want, but imagine themselves defeating the dreaded "ball groups" with superior skill and cunning... while supported by half a faction of friendly pugs they lack the ability to see.

maxjapank

Satiar wrote: »

if the changes go through as stated its really going to be a numbers game. More numbers is more siege, end of story. Still not sure how keeps will work, you can stack a whole faction inside one and just siege all entry points. In the current meta I have a *chance* of taking keeps from opponents that heavily outnumber me, I don't really see that being possible in the future. The idea of stacking is unity, focused heals and focused dps moving as one to overcome larger but less organized resistance. For all the hate it gets, stacking is how you beat large groups with a small group. Removing that means more numbers = win, and that's a sad thing to think about.

You are still limited to 20 siege per faction. And you are limited by placement space. Right now, I'd say it is a numbers game. So I don't see how these changes are going to make it more so.

Satiar

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

if the changes go through as stated its really going to be a numbers game. More numbers is more siege, end of story. Still not sure how keeps will work, you can stack a whole faction inside one and just siege all entry points. In the current meta I have a *chance* of taking keeps from opponents that heavily outnumber me, I don't really see that being possible in the future. The idea of stacking is unity, focused heals and focused dps moving as one to overcome larger but less organized resistance. For all the hate it gets, stacking is how you beat large groups with a small group. Removing that means more numbers = win, and that's a sad thing to think about.

You are still limited to 20 siege per faction. And you are limited by placement space. Right now, I'd say it is a numbers game. So I don't see how these changes are going to make it more so.

Sieges sound insane, I don't even know how those will work. If you have to push a choke, but your enemy can deprive you of resources, heals, and mobility, and you are unable to effectively shield incoming damage.... sounds like more PvDoor to me.

Numbers game is actual fights. These changes remove stacking as a viable tactic. Focused damage and heals (aka stacking) is how you breaker larger forces. Once the ability to do that is gone it's really just who can get the biggest hoard abd run over who. It's funny to think that in this meta a guild like mine can take on something like a Classic TKO stack and win, but in the new improved siege meta they would be vastly more effective than me simply by merit of thier sheer numbers.

RinaldoGandolphi

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

Satiar

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

Satiar

As I see it, these changes are basically the end of organized guild play in ESO. To some that will not be taken as a downside at all.

I'll play the patch and see, but eh, it looks extremely unappealing.

maxjapank

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

Satiar

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

Teargrants

Xsorus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

1. He said nothing about removing battle spirit change..He's looking to reverse the change by about 30%...meaning instead of a 50% reduction; we'll now have a 20% reduction on siege..It'll do less damage then 1.6....

2. You can try stacking more healers to counter it...But really you can stack all the healers in the world..you won't be able to heal through a 75% heal debuff very well..Not to mention its not what is going to kill you...It'll be the Lighting ballista and Oil catapults that will do that.

3. Yeap..It'll be dangerous to stack up and get hit by a bunch of Oil Catapults...So don't stack up.

4. Considering your past take on issues (Such as Sorcs for example) and the fact that you run in a Zergball..I don't think you should be commenting on other people in this thread and what they think...You're not exactly the bastion of good judgement on balance or impartialness.

1. Going over the post again, I see that was probably a misunderstanding on my part. If it's just a 30% dmg increase of current values, it's a non issue to me, though honestly I prefer siege being more of auxiliary power that helps you kill ppl rather than just a flat out 'lots of dps' that kills ppl outright. Something like lowering the base dmg of stone trebs and instead giving them something like an armor shatter or shielf piercing dmg component.

2. I'm not saying stacking heals is going to make it possible for a group to heal through it (if Brian keeps it a 75% debuff), I'm saying that that is what the blob groups will try.

3. My point about Oil Cats and the Stam/Mag imbalance between oil/lightning siege has nothing to do about people 'stacking up'. My point is about how it disproportionately punishes Magicka builds.

4. What do your personal attacks on me have to with siege changes? Like, at all? My past take on issues? Do you really want to go down this road?

- I pointed out how Unchained was insanely OP w/ the original 8 sec duration.
- I pointed out how Talons was stealth nerfed and how stupid that was.
- I pointed out how dmg shields negate destructive touch CC, something that still hasn't been fixed.
- I pointed out how Maelstrom 2 handers having a 14k dot was broken.

Do you want me to keep going? I know you've always harbored a particular hatred for Bolt Escape, both it and roll dodge have been nerfed into the ground. You used to endlessly dodge roll and I used to constantly Bolt Escape.

And your whole 'zergball' QQing, please just stop before you dig yourself any deeper. You fought my smallman plenty when you used to run with Lowbei. You know how I play, claming my input is moot because I'm somehow a 'zergger' is about the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. Or perhaps you would like to consult ~Teargrants YouTube~
┬┴┬┴┤(･_├┬┴┬┴ ?

Molag_Crow

People will always oppose the idea of changes, but in actuality, it's a different story..

Satiar

Teargrants wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

1. He said nothing about removing battle spirit change..He's looking to reverse the change by about 30%...meaning instead of a 50% reduction; we'll now have a 20% reduction on siege..It'll do less damage then 1.6....

2. You can try stacking more healers to counter it...But really you can stack all the healers in the world..you won't be able to heal through a 75% heal debuff very well..Not to mention its not what is going to kill you...It'll be the Lighting ballista and Oil catapults that will do that.

3. Yeap..It'll be dangerous to stack up and get hit by a bunch of Oil Catapults...So don't stack up.

4. Considering your past take on issues (Such as Sorcs for example) and the fact that you run in a Zergball..I don't think you should be commenting on other people in this thread and what they think...You're not exactly the bastion of good judgement on balance or impartialness.

1. Going over the post again, I see that was probably a misunderstanding on my part. If it's just a 30% dmg increase of current values, it's a non issue to me, though honestly I prefer siege being more of auxiliary power that helps you kill ppl rather than just a flat out 'lots of dps' that kills ppl outright. Something like lowering the base dmg of stone trebs and instead giving them something like an armor shatter or shielf piercing dmg component.

2. I'm not saying stacking heals is going to make it possible for a group to heal through it (if Brian keeps it a 75% debuff), I'm saying that that is what the blob groups will try.

3. My point about Oil Cats and the Stam/Mag imbalance between oil/lightning siege has nothing to do about people 'stacking up'. My point is about how it disproportionately punishes Magicka builds.

4. What do your personal attacks on me have to with siege changes? Like, at all? My past take on issues? Do you really want to go down this road?

- I pointed out how Unchained was insanely OP w/ the original 8 sec duration.
- I pointed out how Talons was stealth nerfed and how stupid that was.
- I pointed out how dmg shields negate destructive touch CC, something that still hasn't been fixed.
- I pointed out how Maelstrom 2 handers having a 14k dot was broken.

Do you want me to keep going? I know you've always harbored a particular hatred for Bolt Escape, both it and roll dodge have been nerfed into the ground. You used to endlessly dodge roll and I used to constantly Bolt Escape.

And your whole 'zergball' QQing, please just stop before you dig yourself any deeper. You fought my smallman plenty when you used to run with Lowbei. You know how I play, claming my input is moot because I'm somehow a 'zergger' is about the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. Or perhaps you would like to consult ~Teargrants YouTube~
┬┴┬┴┤(･_├┬┴┬┴ ?

Lol teargrants skill less zerger. Even lowbie admitted he hated you and me in larger groups because we were "better than that". Ah the good old days.

Molag_Crow

All the ball-zergs will hate these changes, I love it. Now they'll actually have to use their brains and avoid standing in 'stupid' as well as purging, healing through siege damage and also being wary of openings at side doors, walls, gates etc.

Xsorus

Teargrants wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

1. He said nothing about removing battle spirit change..He's looking to reverse the change by about 30%...meaning instead of a 50% reduction; we'll now have a 20% reduction on siege..It'll do less damage then 1.6....

2. You can try stacking more healers to counter it...But really you can stack all the healers in the world..you won't be able to heal through a 75% heal debuff very well..Not to mention its not what is going to kill you...It'll be the Lighting ballista and Oil catapults that will do that.

3. Yeap..It'll be dangerous to stack up and get hit by a bunch of Oil Catapults...So don't stack up.

4. Considering your past take on issues (Such as Sorcs for example) and the fact that you run in a Zergball..I don't think you should be commenting on other people in this thread and what they think...You're not exactly the bastion of good judgement on balance or impartialness.

1. Going over the post again, I see that was probably a misunderstanding on my part. If it's just a 30% dmg increase of current values, it's a non issue to me, though honestly I prefer siege being more of auxiliary power that helps you kill ppl rather than just a flat out 'lots of dps' that kills ppl outright. Something like lowering the base dmg of stone trebs and instead giving them something like an armor shatter or shielf piercing dmg component.

2. I'm not saying stacking heals is going to make it possible for a group to heal through it (if Brian keeps it a 75% debuff), I'm saying that that is what the blob groups will try.

3. My point about Oil Cats and the Stam/Mag imbalance between oil/lightning siege has nothing to do about people 'stacking up'. My point is about how it disproportionately punishes Magicka builds.

4. What do your personal attacks on me have to with siege changes? Like, at all? My past take on issues? Do you really want to go down this road?

- I pointed out how Unchained was insanely OP w/ the original 8 sec duration.
- I pointed out how Talons was stealth nerfed and how stupid that was.
- I pointed out how dmg shields negate destructive touch CC, something that still hasn't been fixed.
- I pointed out how Maelstrom 2 handers having a 14k dot was broken.

Do you want me to keep going? I know you've always harbored a particular hatred for Bolt Escape, both it and roll dodge have been nerfed into the ground. You used to endlessly dodge roll and I used to constantly Bolt Escape.

And your whole 'zergball' QQing, please just stop before you dig yourself any deeper. You fought my smallman plenty when you used to run with Lowbei. You know how I play, claming my input is moot because I'm somehow a 'zergger' is about the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. Or perhaps you would like to consult ~Teargrants YouTube~
┬┴┬┴┤(･_├┬┴┬┴ ?

2. They can try all they want; it will not change the outcome
3. It screws low stamina magicka builds...but at the same time they're able to cast defensive measures and use offense while the stamina user will not...Its going to hurt all sides is what i'm saying...
4. Unchained was gutted to 3 seconds....which is rather crappy now... But pretty much everyone agreed 8 seconds was fairly long; Not sure your point on Talons...as anyone would agreed with that; same with damage shields (which you've defended multiple times) negating Destructive touch CC..the only reason you even care about it not working against Destructive Touch is because it personally affects you....And as for Maelstrom 2 hander..I honestly don't think it would of been that broken..Its a 7k dot in PvP which is ok I suppose...and we all know how dots currently are....and its now a what? 2k dot? 1k in PvP...yea real nasty that is now *grin*.....

You say i fought your small many plenty (which i don't remember you in anything less then 12 as far as groups go)..But I remember you in your zergball far more..Which happens to be what you're running in right now...Far more then you've soloed lately...Your opinion on the matter is frankly suspect..Which is why I called you out on talking down to others in this thread like we don't see why you're complaining in the first place.

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously trying to claim a breech is extremely dangerous right now for a Ball Group?

/facepalm

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Interesting changes. Curious if the plan would be to apply both these changes to nonvet pvp and vet servers. The servers play different.

Entering a large scroll keep in nonvet with unpurgable snares and resource drains will be a time. There is a ton of room to place siege inside those keeps and to my knowledge outer seige cannot target all the locations inner siege can be set up. Both counting upstairs and downstairs. Even assuming a three breach inner with forces of equal size and are smart enough to use seige I find it hard pressed the attacking side will be able to grab a scroll and leave through what will be a snare-pocalpyse. I know as a defender Ill be stepping off seige and throwing whatever snare I can out to breach, not sure how these snares would interact with the ballista snares. People entering would still need to purge, plus potential resource hits, oof.

Im a scrub orc heal-bot but I do love seige battles. Just wondering if Im mistaken in the potential increased difficulty in actually entering keeps. I liked how 1.6 was with damage and havent enjoyed just healing through seige damage when hit. It seems silly even fully specced as a healer to eat 3 fire bs to the face and not even worry.

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously trying to claim a breech is extremely dangerous right now for a Ball Group?

/facepalm

Against anyone who knows what they are doing, yes. Turns out when you work together as a team and employ basic tactics a heavily defensible position can be ... wait for it... easily defended.

You have a choke you can clog with siege and dump ultis on that your enemy MUST pass through. It's a defenders wet dream. That you don't recognize this is why I mostly don't trust your opinion in group play, as you clearly dont get even basic things like this.

Having personally defended keeps with my "Zerg" of 8-12 people precisely because of siege and convenient chokes, I just don't get what the hell you've going on about

Jaronking

I like this change remove AOE caps as well and PVP Will hopefully be in a better state.

frozywozy

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain doesn't want to spread out . Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

Here, fixed that for you.

frozywozy

double thread

GreenSoup2HoT

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@Sharee "If healing reduction is purgeable then there is no healing reduction as far as a zergball is concerned."

But if the amount of players that can be Purged is reduced, is that still a valid statement?

That changes nothing. You will just have more people running purge in groups, it would be spammed even more instead of once in a while.

You would need to add a purge cooldown. Player cannot be purged for another 30 second's for instance.

Go with the original plan. Make it un-purge able, lowering it to 50% would be fine if it were un-purge able.

frozywozy

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously claiming that sieges inside keeps are dangerous as it is right now? You must be kidding me. You are one of the few groups who don't even bother going straight on flags when you get inside an inner. Often I see your group running up the stairs to the back flag to the inner breach, and up the stairs again doing your lil maneuvers for 5minutes straight, killing people NOT because it is necessary and because you risk wiping BUT for the show and for the extra APs, even if you will never admit it.

Siege does absolutely nothing and bring no threat whatsoever to your 4-5 barriers rotation, purge and regen maneuver spammers 24men group. Don't even try..

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously trying to claim a breech is extremely dangerous right now for a Ball Group?

/facepalm

Against anyone who knows what they are doing, yes. Turns out when you work together as a team and employ basic tactics a heavily defensible position can be ... wait for it... easily defended.

You have a choke you can clog with siege and dump ultis on that your enemy MUST pass through. It's a defenders wet dream. That you don't recognize this is why I mostly don't trust your opinion in group play, as you clearly dont get even basic things like this.

Having personally defended keeps with my "Zerg" of 8-12 people precisely because of siege and convenient chokes, I just don't get what the hell you've going on about

The fact that your medium group successfuly defended a keep against larger numbers doesn't prouve anything. You simply faced disorganized pugs / groups / guilds. You didn't faced Vehemence.

bowmanz607

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My quick thoughts:

1. Right now, ball-groups literally do not move when hit by siege. Something had to be done and that something was increase it's effectiveness
2. Everything favors larger groups. This siege, however, may prompt them to spread out. It also will help defend keeps against large groups which is the point of these weapons.
3. I think the secondary effects go too far. 6 seconds is a *long* time to be hit with an unpurgable effect. A magicka build that gets hit with an oil catapult is screwed: snare and half it's stamina gone? The solution to purgespam abuse is to reform purge, not make negative effects unpurgable.
4. Somewhere between the ineffectiveness of siege at present and the OP siege in this proposal is where siege effectiveness should be.
5. Don't forget flaming oil. It currently is bad and I didn;t see any mention about them. Now that I think about flaming oils not getting the job done, I have noticed that if I try to use them against rams at castle keep gatehouse through the grate, I never see any damage ... is this grate less than 6 meters above the ground?
6. I still think you should bring back ground oils.

http://www.esohead.com/skills/40211-retreating-maneuver

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Even if you could use maneuvers... 5k stam drain follow by a 5k stam skill? REKT

I could pull that off easily on my speed build. That's the problem many don't seem to get - larger groups can dedicate an entire role to some niche, smaller groups can't. Siege needs improvements, yes, but the smaller v larger number debate needs to be solved with mechanics and not siege. Siege can be a piece of the puzzle, perhaps, but this all looks to me like Brian is trying to help the situation with a hail mary because it's one of the few things he does have control over, and wroebel can't/won't/is too slow on making the mechanic changes that are really the source of many of these issues.

This is just that. A piece of the puzzle. This is just one thing they shred with us to get feedback. We know there will be a lot of balancing with this next major update. That is the problem people dont seem to understand. this is coming in with many othr changes.

maxjapank

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Using siege and being wary of siege is exactly how BWB was before IC. In general, only Templars and Nightblades had access to some form of a purge. And yet you were able to take keeps if you timed it correctly or used tactics. You could defend well enough and you could attack well enough with properly placed and used siege. Remember, that it isn't just Defenders aiming at the breech. Attackers can attack through the breech and on top of the keeps from outside. It was actually quite fun.

Rylana

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Using siege and being wary of siege is exactly how BWB was before IC. In general, only Templars and Nightblades had access to some form of a purge. And yet you were able to take keeps if you timed it correctly or used tactics. You could defend well enough and you could attack well enough with properly placed and used siege. Remember, that it isn't just Defenders aiming at the breech. Attackers can attack through the breech and on top of the keeps from outside. It was actually quite fun.

Pretty much this. As a blackwater veteran on about five chars now (two of which were emps) i can pretty much assure all those present that if not for purge crutching like people do now, they would have figured out long ago the strats used to take keeps offensively with deadly siege are more lethal than the ones getting smashed on the breach.

Theres an awful lot of outer wall to put trebs on. Hell a plucky offensive group will have the entire inner sanitized before they even get the postern down.

it actually surprises me more that people dont open multiple breaches anymore either. We are simply going to see more swiss cheese takes, and thats probably a good thing too. Less lemming, more strategy.

bowmanz607

so i am really confused on why people get all in an uproar about how hard siege can hit and adding effects that reduces stam and magika. Are people really that mad that a gigantic flaming arrow or a bag of ice etc will deal major damage? I mean com on people! yes lets be able to face tank a gigantic flaming arrow in the face and shake it off like your the hulk or superman. Really!?!? How dare that stuff actually damn near kill you or do major damage. HOW DARE YOU ZOS DO SOMETHING SO LOGICAL!

Additionally, champ points made resource management a non-issue. This helps nullify that. However, this coupled with purge changes coupled with stuff like unpurgable healing debuffs could result in overkill. That said, this is where we have to test it. Maybe 5k reduction in stamin and magika is too much. Maybe it is not. Those are numbers that can be adjusted. Just like healing debuffs being purgable and not purgeable etc. We really have zero idea how this will play out right now and numbers can always be adjusted. so calm down when it comes the this aspect.

DividendGamer

I don't see this a too great of a solution to most of the problems that is wrong with pvp.

Satiar wrote: »

As I see it, these changes are basically the end of organized guild play in ESO. To some that will not be taken as a downside at all.

I'll play the patch and see, but eh, it looks extremely unappealing.

This seems like the perfect thing for organized guilds to capitalize on the most to me.

They can coordinate placement, marshal their forces better, know who and how and with what the people and setups they are playing with and the damage output they are all capable of etc.

bowmanz607

DividendGamer wrote: »

I don't see this a too great of a solution to most of the problems that is wrong with pvp.

Satiar wrote: »

As I see it, these changes are basically the end of organized guild play in ESO. To some that will not be taken as a downside at all.

I'll play the patch and see, but eh, it looks extremely unappealing.

This seems like the perfect thing for organized guilds to capitalize on the most to me.

They can coordinate placement, marshal their forces better, know who and how and with what the people and setups they are playing with and the damage output they are all capable of etc.

i too dont understand what Satiar was talking about. if anything this creates much more appealing and strategic guild play. rather than running around in a mindless ball we will see groups splitting up and attacking from multiple angles. This is a more intelligent dynamic to group play.