Upcoming siege changes in next major update

hammayolettuce

Manoekin wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

They can't move because they're all snared indefinitely under your scenario.

Assuming they all "Stacked on Crown" standing in big red circles in the first place.

Assuming you can't just drop a catapult and fire it directly in front of you in the heat of combat. It's not like they're shooting it at max range with a hug arc and you have 10 seconds to get out of it. You can aim in front of groups and the shot will hit with essentially no time to react if it's done correctly.

Also assuming you're not being targeted by 5 or more. DC was the best at this, and some of my friends from NM( @hammayolettuce ) can attest that anytime you'd engage in PvP back in the day pugs or players from both factions would just surround the entire engagement with oil catapults and whoever got more up generally won. We even made jokes that DC players were gifted a stack of oil catapults upon character creation it got so bad.

Honestly, @Manoekin I am not a fan of these siege changes. Most people know I play with VE these days and it is considered one of the more effective "ball groups." Now, I love my guild and the people in it, but I hate the ball group meta. I don't think that buffing siege will end up helping small groups as much as people are saying it will, because hey, guess what? I can siege too. In fact, with the current mechanics in place, if I see an opportunity, I still put siege down and fire it. That's *with* 23 other people in my group. I get all kinds of rage tells about it too, but honestly, it's just a habit to set up siege because I'm still used to fighting outnumbered from before people rerolled blue.

Siege can be super effective for smaller groups, but if you have 12 people, and 4 of you set up siege, that's 8 people fighting 20 when 4 people from a group of 24 set up siege in the same place. If those 8 focus DPS to bring down the group of 20, then you've only got one person purging and healing through the 4-8 siege weapons on them. Meanwhile, the group of 20 can output significantly more DPS and still have multiple dedicated healers/purge spammers. Let's not forget that siege already has no AoE cap, so buffing the damage/effects won't kill the ball group playstyle currently used.

It's not hard to see what the new group meta will be after siege gets buffed, and frankly, I think that meta is moving even further away from the small group viability we have been asking for. Instead of all of these drastic new changes, can we please just remove AoE caps and go back to a modified version of the dynamic ulti from 1.5? This is what the community wants and we'd get so many returning players if ZOS would just listen.

Rylana

Ill say the one thing no one else is.

So long as we have a skill in the game that removes all negative effects, from everyone in a large radius, for cheap, with no recourse, no cooldown, and universal availability very early, negative effects will never be considered a threat.

Add in an absolute, something that cant just be spammed off by whacking 1 on a bar like everyone does now, and the whole world goes crazy.

The problem has, and always has been, purge. it was never AoE cap, it was never siege damage, it was never anything except for purge.

Ive actually sat on the upper ring of a keep before and tried to count the number of purges a group below me used, just by visual effect. I literally couldnt count that fast, I got to somewhere near 30 in the span of 10 seconds and was like yep -pack up oil-

You think its aoe cap or anything else that keeps the super tight megazergs nigh invulnerable? I laugh at you, its the goddamned purge spamming removing EVERYTHING you throw at them.

Merlight

Ixtyr wrote: »

Will these oil debuffs stack? A well-timed trio of oils, coupled with the previous nerfing of regeneration rates, could render a lot of stamina-dps players, like myself, completely helpless. @ZOS_BrianWheeler, please consider putting a debuff timer on these, so you can't be affected by multiple stamina-sapping oils within, say, 6 seconds. That means that oil is still brutal, but not completely broken in that it could destroy the viability of stamina builds, and also cripple non-stamina builds who are already low on stamina in the first place.

Well, getting hit by 3 sieges at once should hurt But I agree the punishment doesn't need to scale linearly. Perhaps they could make it drain ~5% of your pool on hit, and either add DoT or cut recovery in half for ~6s. Multiple hits would still each bite the pool, but the DoT/recovery debuff would be refreshed and thus only apply once.

Zheg

Hmm, maybe the better question we should all be asking is if we'll even be able to put down (working, non bugged) siege during our normal laggy battles. More often than not, attempting to put down siege during big engagements means you just wasted the AP you spent buying the siege...

Talcyndl

Rylana wrote: »

You think its aoe cap or anything else that keeps the super tight megazergs nigh invulnerable? I laugh at you, its the goddamned purge spamming removing EVERYTHING you throw at them.

I agree that it is the single most important factor. Not the only factor, but the one that needs to be addressed effectively to remove the current Blob damage immunity.

It is the uncounterable counter to all counters.

Enodoc

Ishammael wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Right, but what I'm getting at is that Brian said the snare couldn't be purged, which he defined as any ability which removes a negative effect. He didn't say that it couldn't be CC-broken using "break free" (the RMB/LMB stamina escape), which is not considered an ability.

What are you talking about? Snares and heal debuffs cannot be "broken free" from.

Yeah alright, don't rub it in I already said I don't know the difference between snares and roots and why some things can be broken free from and some can't.

Enodoc wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Right, but what I'm getting at is that Brian said the snare couldn't be purged, which he defined as any ability which removes a negative effect. He didn't say that it couldn't be CC-broken using "break free" (the RMB/LMB stamina escape), which is not considered an ability.

You can't Break Free from a Snare.

Ah. That would be the problem then.
Someone's going to have to tell me sometime what the difference is between a snare and a root (and also why you can Roll Dodge out of some things and Break Free from others). And maybe while we're at it the difference between stun and disorient.

Xsorus

Rylana wrote: »

Ill say the one thing no one else is.

So long as we have a skill in the game that removes all negative effects, from everyone in a large radius, for cheap, with no recourse, no cooldown, and universal availability very early, negative effects will never be considered a threat.

Add in an absolute, something that cant just be spammed off by whacking 1 on a bar like everyone does now, and the whole world goes crazy.

The problem has, and always has been, purge. it was never AoE cap, it was never siege damage, it was never anything except for purge.

Ive actually sat on the upper ring of a keep before and tried to count the number of purges a group below me used, just by visual effect. I literally couldnt count that fast, I got to somewhere near 30 in the span of 10 seconds and was like yep -pack up oil-

You think its aoe cap or anything else that keeps the super tight megazergs nigh invulnerable? I laugh at you, its the goddamned purge spamming removing EVERYTHING you throw at them.

Purge does play a huge role; don't under estimate things like Barrier and AOE caps though..they're also rewarding bad gameplay

Hell i'd even throw Retreating Manuevers on that as well..as it provides immunity to ignore Roots and snares at the start of the fight to allow groups to push past kill zones with ease.

Zheg wrote: »

Hmm, maybe the better question we should all be asking is if we'll even be able to put down (working, non bugged) siege during our normal laggy battles. More often than not, attempting to put down siege during big engagements means you just wasted the AP you spent buying the siege...

lol

I did a video on this once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk

PainfulFAFA

Enodoc wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Sharee "If healing reduction is purgeable then there is no healing reduction as far as a zergball is concerned."

But if the amount of players that can be Purged is reduced, is that still a valid statement?

Not a valid statement imo Wheeler.

Efficient purge is so cheap any magicka build can spam it endlessly.
What the zergs will do is only ask for dedicated purgers 5-10 and theyre all set.

Rylana

Rapids is ridiculously expensive (three times the cost of purge), broken by doing damage, purge is not. Not even comparable really. If purge cost 7k-9k like rapids does for most builds, that would change the game dramatically. Even a dedicated purge-bot would struggle to keep up at that cost.

As it is? Efficient costs less than 3k for most people, some even get it down to 2k territory.

Thats ridiculous.

Barrier is an ultimate, by no means truly spammable.

Talcyndl

Manoekin wrote: »

IDK man I've been a part of MANY of GvG fights involving siege. It's plenty easy enough to go off to the side and get siege up. Any enemies coming towards you you can either engage if it's something you can take on or just avoid. Avoiding damage is probably one of the easier things in this game. Most of the times I die it's either extremely laggy and all the damage hits at once, or I get charge spam rooted in place making it impossible to avoid anything.

The last thing I'm trying to do is benefit larger groups because I hate that gameplay. I just think this is overkill and the wrong way of going about it. There's a better option that will make PvP between actual players a lot more fun and dynamic.

As things stand now there is zero need for a Blob group to send anyone to attack siegers. Why attack someone who can't hurt you. The 'hangers on' (ie, "PUGs") often do though.

When I run solo I will often set up siege even though I know it is rarely effective - I keep hoping.

I am usually attacked - often by stealth gankers. At least then I can have a fight that doesn't involve 5 steel tornados on my death recap.

As for the best way to fix the Blob meta....I wish the Combat and Abilities team cared more about PvP so there could be an integrated approach. That would necessarily involve changes to Purge (which they say are coming, but who knows). But it would also involve changes to spammable, large radius, high damage AoE (e.g. Steel Tornado). Not to mention changing Prox Det into what it was announced as being - an anti-zerg ability.

If we could reasonably expect those changes, I'd be fine with smaller changes to siege. It would be more effective simply because the Blobs wouldn't be immune to damage.

But that's not the Developer we have. We are PvP'ing in a PvE focused game. So siege changes need to be more dramatic to be effective.

Talcyndl

Zheg wrote: »

Hmm, maybe the better question we should all be asking is if we'll even be able to put down (working, non bugged) siege during our normal laggy battles. More often than not, attempting to put down siege during big engagements means you just wasted the AP you spent buying the siege...

In my experience this has been mostly fixed. As long as you don't try and move until you have completed the placement animation (fully stood up - even if the siege hasn't materialized yet), your siege will work. If you move too soon, there is still a chance of bugging. But it works MUCH better than it did a few months ago.

myrrrorb14_ESO

Sublime wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

For the sake of discussion, and bearing in mind possible changes to Purge (the ability itself as noted by Wrobel in his thread), how would a 50% healing reduction instead of 75% from the meatbag sound as well as being purge-able?

If healing reduction is purgeable then there is no healing reduction as far as a zergball is concerned. Reduction in number of targets will simply be compensated by running more purgers. Stick to the original plan. Make them move.

This. Unless there are changes made to purge which stop it being spammable or the AoE caps are removed for siege weapons so you're applying the effect to more numbers than the purges can keep up with then very little changes.

Right now when my guild runs a bomb train we can stand in one location, place a siege bubble, spam healing springs and purge and not suffer any ill effects no matter how much we are hit by meatbags. Granted the new lightning ballista effect will have a massive part to play here in ruining healing done but efficient purge is far too easy to spam for complete protection right now.

At the very least AOE caps need to go on siege equipment. All other arguments aside, siege should effect everything! I mean, it takes down castles why should bodies limit it.

I don't get it, do you want to buff or nerf sieges? O.o

Both!

I want it to make sense and still have abilities mean something.

That's kinda contradicting itself in my eyes. Why not just buff/nerf it to the desired streangth?

Sorry that I didn't explain very well.

I want siege equipment to feel powerfull. No cap on targets effected and make sure that they are something to fear (read that as get out of the red).

But I also want class abilities to still be usefull.

So I would like to see negative effects still be purgible, but still limit it somehow. Perhaps by reducing the targets affected to only people in your group and capping it at 3 or 4. Limit group size to 12 should help other issues too. I would also make DoTs from siege nonpurgable.

Anyway, I think this better states what I'm trying to express. There is already a plethora of good ideas here made by people more knowledgeable than I.

Xsorus

Rylana wrote: »

Rapids is ridiculously expensive (three times the cost of purge), broken by doing damage, purge is not. Not even comparable really. If purge cost 7k-9k like rapids does for most builds, that would change the game dramatically. Even a dedicated purge-bot would struggle to keep up at that cost.

As it is? Efficient costs less than 3k for most people, some even get it down to 2k territory.

Thats ridiculous.

Barrier is an ultimate, by no means truly spammable.

Rapids allows a group to rush through a hole in the wall avoiding the death trap that opening usually is by avoiding the things that would slow them down...Root and Snare.

Barrier is also fairly cheap when ya consider how much it absorbs and how easy it is to get enough ultimate to cast it again.

Talcyndl

Rylana wrote: »

Barrier is an ultimate, by no means truly spammable.

Yeah, the proposed cap on Barrier seems like the wrong approach. It's the mindless, spammable skills that the Blobs use we should be focused on.

Teargrants

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

Sublime

Talcyndl wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Hmm, maybe the better question we should all be asking is if we'll even be able to put down (working, non bugged) siege during our normal laggy battles. More often than not, attempting to put down siege during big engagements means you just wasted the AP you spent buying the siege...

In my experience this has been mostly fixed. As long as you don't try and move until you have completed the placement animation (fully stood up - even if the siege hasn't materialized yet), your siege will work. If you move too soon, there is still a chance of bugging. But it works MUCH better than it did a few months ago.

To be honest, all sieges I placed since 1.7 hit worked. Which is quite nice. They have a firing and damage delay but at least I can use it.

Talcyndl

Teargrants wrote: »

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live.

I think you are misreading this. I take Wheeler as saying that the Battle Spirit change meant that siege was no longer doing the same relative amount of damage as before. That was unintended. So, they are boosting siege damage. They aren't removing the current Battle Spirit debuff for siege.

RoamingRiverElk

Well, I don't agree it's just purge, but it's one key component for sure.

• Purge affects too many people.
• Barrier affects too many people.
• Smart heals means that it's about bursting someone down faster than they will get that BoL heal.
• Dynamic ultimate generation rewarded you for fighting a lot of people (so that was a good thing).
• AOE caps - well, no need to even mention this.
• Big groups do not need to manage their stamina
  Big groups can focus on damage / healing, because rapid maneuver is so strong (just have one person in your group cast it - that will be a stamina build for whom casting it even several times in a row is no problem), and they don't need to worry about a single wrecking blower and fearer, or blocking, or reacting with a dodge roll at the right time, because they will be healed through it, or whoever lands in the middle of an enemy group dies fast to aoe. The bigger the group, the more things you get for free when someone else activates a supporting skill (heal, purge, rapid maneuver). Small group and solo builds *must* focus on having good stamina management, unless they're solely ganking (=burst and escape/hide).

Can we talk about Negate? It used to be a great skill when people still used it because *everyone* who was affected by it needed to break free individually, or another negate was needed to cancel it.

We need more of that - individual members of the zerg needing to do things for themselves - breaking free, purging themselves, dodge rolling. That's when they cannot make overly maxed out builds without needing to consider the negative sides of ignoring something, they need to respond individually to situations (=skill).

We need to be able to counter everything the game throws at us - we need to be prepared for it and we need to do it at the right time, and we need to have the tools to do it when we decide to devote a part of our build for that. That's why I don't wish meatbags or snares to be unpurgeable. Instead, every individual should counter them themselves. Then again, since we want to encourage cooperation between group members, let's say purge should affect three people, rapid maneuver three people.

Talcyndl

Teargrants wrote: »

We need more of that - individual members of the zerg needing to do things for themselves - breaking free, purging themselves, dodge rolling. That's when they cannot make overly maxed out builds without needing to consider the negative sides of ignoring something, they need to respond individually to situations (=skill).

Yes.

TheBull

Rylana wrote: »

Rapids is ridiculously expensive (three times the cost of purge), broken by doing damage, purge is not. Not even comparable really. If purge cost 7k-9k like rapids does for most builds, that would change the game dramatically. Even a dedicated purge-bot would struggle to keep up at that cost.

As it is? Efficient costs less than 3k for most people, some even get it down to 2k territory.

Thats ridiculous.

Barrier is an ultimate, by no means truly spammable.

Rapid is not expensive for a stam user inside a zerg. It's pretty OP.

Manoekin

Rylana wrote: »

Rapids is ridiculously expensive (three times the cost of purge), broken by doing damage, purge is not. Not even comparable really. If purge cost 7k-9k like rapids does for most builds, that would change the game dramatically. Even a dedicated purge-bot would struggle to keep up at that cost.

As it is? Efficient costs less than 3k for most people, some even get it down to 2k territory.

Thats ridiculous.

Barrier is an ultimate, by no means truly spammable.

Efficient is just what it is, efficient. Base purge and Cleanse morph are the same as retreating I believe. My cleanse costs 5k wearing full light and some champion point reduction. I've said multiple times in this thread to remove efficient purge and no one seemed to care

frozywozy

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People need to get out of the mindset of stacking to counter AOE

Watch the first fight in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rfmPhRIwpE

That's bad gameplay....They saw an enemy guild group..That group stacked...and so did they when rushing into blow them up.

In fact most of the video is this same thing over and over again...Stacking up and trying to blow each other up with AOE's.

Here is an 8v8 in DAOC now for example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc6FX2GAh7M

Notice when the enemy i seen everyone spreads out...

This is the problem with pvp currently in this game...and how people are currently viewing the siege for example....They're expecting to be able to all stack up and take a siege shot and it be fine....When really if you see the enemy with a catapult you should spread the hell out so you don't get screwed.

This game needs to punish people stacking to avoid AOE...AOE should make you spread out...not the opposite...and siege is included in this.

That's AOE caps, not siege. Siege already isn't AOE capped, it just doesn't do enough damage unless you seriously focus the fire and only with stone trebs.

you're missing the point...I'm showing how 2 different groups handle things....In this game a lot of you guys are arguing based on the point that "Hey there is AOE going to hit us..Lets stack up"....

in DAOC we learned early on.."Hey there is a AOE to hit us..lets not stack up"

The Siege discussion relates directly to this... People are expecting..flat out that they should be able to stack on an objective and take siege hits and it not be a problem.... where as because of how DAOC was from the beginning..No one would ever expect that.

AOE caps in general has really screwed the perspective of a lot of players when it comes to these things.

I'm not missing the point, you are. You're comparing two different games. Your argument is invalid at that point. There's reasons people stack up and it's not for any reason you've listed so far. Learn a thing or two from the countless number of posts people have made about this. No one is stacking up to avoid siege damage. That's the worst thing you could do to avoid that. The problem is the damage part. The damage part is being addressed. I said in my very first post I'm okay with that. There's no reason at all to add the one part I consider unnecessary. The other changes are enough; we're going overkill at this point. We've made siege useful, let's not make it the most important thing. I want to play a game where I play against other players, not against their siege weaponry.

The point IS to make it the most important thing to force zergballs to spread out, since magicka detonation didn't work and since purge / barrier spam counter everything. Those changes (if tweaked correctly and this is the reason why Brian Wheeler made this discussion in the first place) are going to finally give a chance to solo, small/medium groups to counter large organized groups during keep battles.

Molag_Crow

I'm so pleased about these changes!

frozywozy

timidobserver wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

No one is stacking up to avoid siege damage.

They are stacking because it avoids ALL damage via AoE heals (which automatically target low health allies) and spammable purge which removes all negative effects. Add to that the "best offense is a good defense" of spammed steel detonation, well...we see the results in idiotic gameplay and lag.

There are a lot of ways to potentially fix that. Siege is the one that @ZOS_BrianWheeler can control. So the goal should be to make siege effective against stacked groups that can spam purge and heals.

Nobody stacks for this reason. People stack because it makes coordinating movement and damage easier. I have not once heard someone say "stack up so we can take advantage of the aoe cap."

Of course they don't. It's like asking someone taking steroids for the olympics to say it out loud on the news after winning a gold medal.

PainfulFAFA

My Streak and Lightning Form costs more than Efficient Purge....

Manoekin

frozywozy wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People need to get out of the mindset of stacking to counter AOE

Watch the first fight in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rfmPhRIwpE

That's bad gameplay....They saw an enemy guild group..That group stacked...and so did they when rushing into blow them up.

In fact most of the video is this same thing over and over again...Stacking up and trying to blow each other up with AOE's.

Here is an 8v8 in DAOC now for example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc6FX2GAh7M

Notice when the enemy i seen everyone spreads out...

This is the problem with pvp currently in this game...and how people are currently viewing the siege for example....They're expecting to be able to all stack up and take a siege shot and it be fine....When really if you see the enemy with a catapult you should spread the hell out so you don't get screwed.

This game needs to punish people stacking to avoid AOE...AOE should make you spread out...not the opposite...and siege is included in this.

That's AOE caps, not siege. Siege already isn't AOE capped, it just doesn't do enough damage unless you seriously focus the fire and only with stone trebs.

you're missing the point...I'm showing how 2 different groups handle things....In this game a lot of you guys are arguing based on the point that "Hey there is AOE going to hit us..Lets stack up"....

in DAOC we learned early on.."Hey there is a AOE to hit us..lets not stack up"

The Siege discussion relates directly to this... People are expecting..flat out that they should be able to stack on an objective and take siege hits and it not be a problem.... where as because of how DAOC was from the beginning..No one would ever expect that.

AOE caps in general has really screwed the perspective of a lot of players when it comes to these things.

I'm not missing the point, you are. You're comparing two different games. Your argument is invalid at that point. There's reasons people stack up and it's not for any reason you've listed so far. Learn a thing or two from the countless number of posts people have made about this. No one is stacking up to avoid siege damage. That's the worst thing you could do to avoid that. The problem is the damage part. The damage part is being addressed. I said in my very first post I'm okay with that. There's no reason at all to add the one part I consider unnecessary. The other changes are enough; we're going overkill at this point. We've made siege useful, let's not make it the most important thing. I want to play a game where I play against other players, not against their siege weaponry.

The point IS to make it the most important thing to force zergballs to spread out, since magicka detonation didn't work and since purge / barrier spam counter everything. Those changes (if tweaked correctly and this is the reason why Brian Wheeler made this discussion in the first place) are going to finally give a chance to solo, small/medium groups to counter large organized groups during keep battles.

If that's the point then this game is already dead. I want a fun game with fair play, not to just sit on my siege all day.

Xsorus

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

1. He said nothing about removing battle spirit change..He's looking to reverse the change by about 30%...meaning instead of a 50% reduction; we'll now have a 20% reduction on siege..It'll do less damage then 1.6....

2. You can try stacking more healers to counter it...But really you can stack all the healers in the world..you won't be able to heal through a 75% heal debuff very well..Not to mention its not what is going to kill you...It'll be the Lighting ballista and Oil catapults that will do that.

3. Yeap..It'll be dangerous to stack up and get hit by a bunch of Oil Catapults...So don't stack up.

4. Considering your past take on issues (Such as Sorcs for example) and the fact that you run in a Zergball..I don't think you should be commenting on other people in this thread and what they think...You're not exactly the bastion of good judgement on balance or impartialness.

frozywozy

Rylana wrote: »

Rapids is ridiculously expensive (three times the cost of purge), broken by doing damage, purge is not. Not even comparable really. If purge cost 7k-9k like rapids does for most builds, that would change the game dramatically. Even a dedicated purge-bot would struggle to keep up at that cost.

As it is? Efficient costs less than 3k for most people, some even get it down to 2k territory.

Thats ridiculous.

Barrier is an ultimate, by no means truly spammable.

Increasing the cost or decreasing the amount of people it affects does nothing good. It only increases the amount of people using it in the blob and calculations on the server. My idea, as I posted earlier during the day is the following :

1) Purge (both morphs) should remove player debuffs/snares but not siege debuffs/snares
2) Cleansing Ritual should remove every debuffs/snares (requires interaction of player synergy and individual skill)

Now just imagine this scenario on a keep breach. Organized blob stacks up and get ready to push in with a barrier. Smaller group is ready inside with proper counter-siege setup (oil cata, meatbag, lightning balista) aiming at the breach and a guy on the wall calling when to fire.

The organized group starts pushing in, drops multiple cleansing rituals on top of each other to make sure that everyone in the group gets the synergy.

THEN, you have a defender sorc dropping a negate on top of those cleansing ritual and this siege battle changes into a negate war and it brings a totally new approach and new meta.

Hektik_V

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I think ZoS needs to stop rethinking their game. Every major patch there is an accompanying major change to an underlying mechanic (dynamic ulti gen, stam regen while blocking, etc). I feel like small incremental changes more often are much better than these huge changes that completely change the meta every patch.

frozywozy

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

And yet, another player running in large groups complaining that it will affect more smaller groups.

In the meantime, dozen of small group players have been giving thunderous applause to the changes.