Upcoming siege changes in next major update

tinythinker

Siege has always been my favorite part of PvP. Personally I prefer a third Alliance War skill line that gives the kinds of buffs listed (and making each AW skill line mutually exclusive), but it will be interesting to see how this pans out nonetheless. Scaling (does less damage to fewer targets/increased damage to more targets) would be useful with these changes, along the lines of an inverted AoE cap but with different break points to take into account the impact radius (first 2 players =50% damage, next 2 = 75%, everything after the first 4 up to any max cap = 100% damage).

Turelus

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to clarify, the DOT on Flame Trebs and Flame Ballista can still be purged....for now.

So it's just the healing debuff? That seems a little sane.

Is it just the purge ability which doesn't remove this or all effects which would remove a debuff?

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Siege will still travel at it's current speed.

Gilvoth

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

• Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.
• Snares have been normalized on all siege weapons that apply that debuff (ice treb, lightning ballista, oil catapult) to be a 50% snare, and last 6 seconds.
• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
• Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
• Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.
• Ballista now turn faster and have their "scatter" variable removed, making them 100% accurate to your aimed location.
• Scattershot now adds 20% damage taken from other siege weapons instead of 10%

thats gona hurt, and its gona leave a mark.
this is serious, i hope im not on the recieving end, because, man thats gona leave alot of people dead.

blur

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

• Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.
• Snares have been normalized on all siege weapons that apply that debuff (ice treb, lightning ballista, oil catapult) to be a 50% snare, and last 6 seconds.
• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
• Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
• Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.
  

@ZOS_BrianWheeler




Have you considered what the lag is going to be like? I mean currently on live it's pretty bad and it's just zerg vs zerg with a serious lack of siege. I am wondering if it will be worse with a lot of siege added. This change sounds epic, just worried it will cause even more lag, after all, you would be a fool not to bring siege after this change.

timidobserver

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

"Purgable" is a bit misleading? Purge is one skill, but there are multiple skills that remove negative effects like purifying ritual and dark cloak. Does the change apply to all skills that remove negative effects or just the alliance war skill purge?

tinythinker

timidobserver wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

"Purgable" is a bit misleading? Purge is one skill, but there are multiple skills that remove negative effects like purifying ritual and dark cloak. Does the change apply to all skills that remove negative effects or just the alliance war skill purge?

Good question but it seems to imply any cleansing ability. If not my Templar will be more popular than ever. (Which still isn't much, but woohoo for the tiny boost!)

Turelus

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

myrrrorb14_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
• Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
• Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.

Awesome
Awesome
Awesome

Great changes!
As long as siege is still slow (and therefore easily avoidable) the concerns above are unfounded.

Concern is for running siege equipment. It's not particularly easy to get out of the way while using them and having a guard to heal / purge / shield is no longer going to protect against enemy siege.

A flat rate can't purge is an overreaction imo. Assigning values to purge and purgable effects would be better. Have each siege effect count as 2 or 3 effects would be adequate. But we will see how this plays out. Should make things interesting

Jhunn

Turelus wrote: »

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

This 'large scale battle' argument again.

Really?

vortexman11

Dayum.

I foresee many oil catapults in the future... Seriously... 5 oil catapults aimed at a breach with some oil pots up top = GG.... Instant loss of 25,000 stamina...unpurgable snare and no hope of rolling out.

Too be honest... I would of much preferred ground oils

Nafirian

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

Spoken like a true zergling

tinythinker

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

Yeah that's why small-scale objectives like raiding caravans would be nice to add into the game.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Ffastyl

Love Wizard wrote: »

Have you considered what the lag is going to be like? I mean currently on live it's pretty bad and it's just zerg vs zerg with a serious lack of siege. I am wondering if it will be worse with a lot of siege added. This change sounds epic, just worried it will cause even more lag, after all, you would be a fool not to bring siege after this change.

Considering siege was this effective in a past build (that I played through), the lag should be a little less since groups are either running or dying when under siege fire. Either way, the zergs aren't spamming abilities. Except Rapid Maneuvers, perhaps.

Will people set up siege in open fields to bombard an oncoming zerg? Indubitably! Will that siege get overrun because its a stationary object in the middle of a field? Invariably!
Battles feel more warlike when there's actual siege fire shooting everywhere, ups the scale without actually upping the player count.

azoriangaming

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

you'd say that running 24+ group all the time lmao

WebBull

DoT's should NOT be purgable. Otherwise just remove the DoT from siege completely and make the damage higher.

ThyIronFist

this cant be real

Deltia

I think these are interesting changes that need to be tested prior to implementation. Lowbie PvP the only way to really kill a large group is with siege or pure numbers. If you want to "counter zerg" maybe this will help. Image snaring a group of 24, healing debuff, and zapping their magic. That large group is much easier to fight with less healing and healers with zero magicka.I've been on both sides of the zerg and I hope we get on the PTS to test this concept.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einsten

If we, as community, wish to disincentives zergs, ZOS must try something different, anything really. Is this the fix? I don't know, but it's worthy pursing different options.

WillhelmBlack

I'm gob smacked! Why are you wasting time and money on this? We're asking for fixes on PvP (players vs players, class balance, the AoE caps, zerging). Not the stuff that knocks walls down, they already do a really, really good job at that.

Ffastyl

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Will abilities like Forward Momentum and Shuffle, which grant snare/root immunity, block and/or remove the snares from siege?

Orchish

Huge thread about siege weapons lack of threat against players, they finally make some changes to make it something you really want to avoid again and people still complain. Can't win. Why not wait and test it out before complaining?

bowmanz607

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

• Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.
• Snares have been normalized on all siege weapons that apply that debuff (ice treb, lightning ballista, oil catapult) to be a 50% snare, and last 6 seconds.
• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
• Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
• Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.
• Ballista now turn faster and have their "scatter" variable removed, making them 100% accurate to your aimed location.
• Scattershot now adds 20% damage taken from other siege weapons instead of 10%

Thanks for any feedback regarding these changes and again, these may or may not go up to PTS/Live exactly as stated here, but this is what we're currently testing

this 100% needs to be implemented. I cant wait to test it out. This will not only make siege amazing but also break up those zergs. This also makes a few seige being used by a well trained small group able to get an advantage over larger groups.
One question though. Are the DOTs purgeable? @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Sotha_Sil

But I thought little groups were not (less)stacking than zergs so they should be able to avoid siege while zergs will get snared and all ? not sure how you can say categorically it's bad for small scale.

Gilvoth

ThyIronFist wrote: »

this cant be real

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
omg that zenimax developer is halarious.
whats his forum account name and why does he never speak here? too funny!

TheBull

Jhunn wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

This 'large scale battle' argument again.

Really?

This small group argument again?

Corpsage

I also think this is a great change coming to the game. Small groups are going to start raining HELL down on you Zerglings with Coldfire, Stuns, Debuffs, and then drain all your resources. dat guerilla lyfe doe.

sirinsidiator

Remember the last time siege weapons got a buff? People whined so hard and after a few days they learned to dodge and everything was fine again.
I am looking forward to this changes. It will shake up the gameplay and make pvp interesting if only for a while.

timidobserver

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Thanks for the info. I would reconsider that distinction. The alliance war purge is an easy button aoe spammable negative effect remover. Dark cloak is single target and purifying ritual requires a synergy for it to work on other players and synergy already has a cool down.

The specific problem is the alliance war purge. Rather than the scattershot approach, just fix the specific problem which is purge.

WebBull

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'm gob smacked! Why are you wasting time and money on this? We're asking for fixes on PvP (players vs players, class balance, the AoE caps, zerging). Not the stuff that knocks walls down, they already do a really, really good job at that.

Most of the PvP community has been asking for stronger siege. How purge works is the issue here. IMO the two key things that purge should NOT remove are snare and DoT. This will allow smaller groups to be more effective.