Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Tomato

@Galalin is only mad because he runs with a Zerg ball guild that will need to actually split up now.

bowmanz607

vortexman11 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

I keep seeing you post this, but whenever I see you in Cyrodiil you're with DiG surrounded by 30 other people sieging down groups you already outnumber.

o you mean when I am running on my pvp nights with my guild? I mostly run solo when in cyrodil except on designated nights. feel free to contact anyone in the guild about that. And yes this would help those smaller groups defending a keep against us because it will force us to use different tactics and split up more. Keep in mind there are many nights that even when we run large groups that we get our butts kicked. SO this will also help us as a group of 30 defending against a group of 60.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Why promote using skills when you can siege? That would make sense when all sense in this game was lost 3 patches ago.

Talcyndl

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

On EU theres a siege up in 99% of all fights between groups.

Between Blob groups? Sure.

The only counter currently to a Blob is another Blob. Then, and only then, do those groups need to rely on strategy (and hope the Lag switch flips at the right time for their damage to proc).

This is for the rest of the time when those Groups run around like a little ball of godlike immunity.

themdogesbite

WebBull wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

Yeah, in what possible instance do the small group of arround 10 - 12 people compared to a large zerg of 24+ spread all over the keep, pleaceing sieges on the postern doors, oils above the flags and over the meatbags.. They DONT, they cannot spare the numbers for this.

I can think of quite a few. The main one being after the wall is down and the zerg is rushing in the breach. The zerg isn't sieging at that point so these changes definitely help the smaller defending group.

Yes at breaches it will be usefull but after that? If you dont kill everyone in one impact its over already, Enemies will start to siege the breach too and spread arround cockroach ressing everybody like they do now. Some guilds we face dont even fight they just spread arround trying to ress.

bowmanz607

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

Yeah, in what possible instance do the small group of arround 10 - 12 people compared to a large zerg of 24+ spread all over the keep, pleaceing sieges on the postern doors, oils above the flags and over the meatbags.. They DONT, they cannot spare the numbers for this.

Well that large zerg comes through ONE hole. They get spread out all over the keep and put oils down because the current effectiveness of siege is laughable. you can pound that hole with siege now and it does not matter. With these changes you pund that hole and it will not only wipe a good amount, but it will also deplete the resource of the people that have made it through making them easy pickens.

Galalin

Tomato wrote: »

@Galalin is only mad because he runs with a Zerg ball guild that will need to actually split up now.

Thats a load of crap i solo and small group and our groups exceed 16 players maybe 1 time a month.

I am all for small scall PvP and if you wanna test that theory out i will be glad to stand over your dead body and say "i told you so"

DK SCRUB OUT

Reverb

I'm pretty pleased by some of these changes, especially the general damage increase and the buffs to my friend the oil cat.

But I can't see unpurgable meatbags bringing anything positive to the game. I'm very worried about the unintended consequences of this.

themdogesbite

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

Yeah, in what possible instance do the small group of arround 10 - 12 people compared to a large zerg of 24+ spread all over the keep, pleaceing sieges on the postern doors, oils above the flags and over the meatbags.. They DONT, they cannot spare the numbers for this.

Well that large zerg comes through ONE hole. They get spread out all over the keep and put oils down because the current effectiveness of siege is laughable. you can pound that hole with siege now and it does not matter. With these changes you pund that hole and it will not only wipe a good amount, but it will also deplete the resource of the people that have made it through making them easy pickens.

Possibly, but again theres nothign stopping the enemies from siegeing the breech too. One meatbag and your entire group can never move to that spot without dieying.

I dont know about you but i prefer to use abbilities when i PvP to kill people. Not.. sieges. urgh.

Sanct16

It will just help the casuals even more. You suck playing your class? Thank god that you dont need any skills anymore. Just place a siege...

timidobserver

Ffastyl wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Thanks for the info. I would reconsider that distinction. The alliance war purge is an easy button aoe spammable negative effect remover. Dark cloak is single target and purifying ritual requires a synergy for it to work on other players and synergy already has a cool down.

The specific problem is the alliance war purge. Rather than the scattershot approach, just fix the specific problem which is purge.

For Cleansing Ritual, sure, but Dark Cloak...? Allowing Cleansing Ritual to remove siege debuffs is a nice buff for Templars and not overpowering to groups/zergs because aside from the Templar caster, debuff removal has a cooldown, thanks to synergy cooldowns. Dark Cloak only removes DoTs from the caster - no direct group benefit - so I am less inclined to let this ability purge siege effects.

Basically, my only point is that the PvP problem is limited to a few specific abilities. The problematic abilities should be fixed. directly rather than the scattershot approach the ZoS has been taking lately. They are balancing with grenades rather than a scalpel.

_Chaos

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
  

EPIC.
Meatbags for all!
MOAR MEAT ON TEH BREACHES!

So stoked to try this out.

Galalin

Yeah im not even gonna post on this topic anymore.... another PvE victory in PvP GJ ZoS... dam GJ

now we have gone from 6 button down to 1

DK SCRUB OUT

bowmanz607

Sanct16 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

@bowmanz607
Obviously the larger groups will use siege aswell. And because they are way more they will be able to place way more sieges.

Compare a 12 man group to a 24 man group. Who will be affected more by this change? The solution to this change will be to bring even more people to a fight.

as i have stated many times already. a zerg is not placing seige when they are storming through a hole in the keep. It is only after they secure an area in a keep that they place siege. This helps prevent them from securing an area to place seige. Also, now multiple seige targeting one area will be able todestroy that area. UNlike right now where a player just sits in 3 or 4 sige hitting them.

TheBull

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Zerger arguing for the small group. This is rich.

No idea who you are for starters, but judgeing by your forum post you have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about or you didnt play the game before 1.6.

Better ask somebody.

What's small to you? 10? 12? 16? anything short of 24? Group up? Purge purge purge? Maneuvers? Purge purge purge? If this is you "squad". This is intended to affect you adversely.

Kwivur

"Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack." Sun Tsu

Jhunn

Tomato wrote: »

@Galalin is only mad because he runs with a Zerg ball guild that will need to actually split up now.

You, aswell as many others, obviously haven't PVP'ed enough to have any clue how this change will affect zergs vs smaller groups. This is beyond stupid

tinythinker

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

What if unpurgeable buff would be applied ONLY if the number of targets hit is superior to a specific number (12 ? 15 ? 20?) ?

I had a similar idea (for oil cats). The snare would be unpurgeable no matter what but the percentage of the speed reduction is what scaled. But, that and scaled damage and similar things are much harder to put in coding wise. Not impossible, but they take more time. The changes listed in the opening post are things that can be put in more quickly, which is likely why they wanted to test them first even if they have internally discussed other ways to modify siege function.

Asmael

I'm curious as to the interaction between Rapids / Shuffle and Oil catapult @ZOS_BrianWheeler ...

Sounds to me fire ballistas are losing a lot of value here, I mean, losing a little damage for a strong snare + magicka destruction?

Quite curious as to how it'll turn out. Increased damage on sieges is welcome, resource destruction is a nice idea, unpurgeable seems like a bit too much, even if only on secondary effects.

That also means 2 basic stone trebs hitting at the same time will instagib a zergball, which alone is magnificent (or 2 cold stone trebs if a barrier is up).

Remdale

Very nice, Brian Wheeler! The haters to this mostly fall in two cateogories: 'why aren't you doing something else' (they don't understand development resources/process) and 'THE END IS NIGHHHH' (jaded doomsayers). Siege needed to be much stronger and this WILL benefit small groups more than large groups, and also add more dynamic to Cyrodiil. I would put the DoT AoE in the same bag as the others. >:-) Just maybe, you know, let purge still reduce the duration without removing the effect. When I drop oil on someone they should burn. BURRRN!

azoriangaming

bowmanz607 wrote: »

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

Really? All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.

this is just going to make the zergs more stronger, smaller groups won't have a chance to anything.

seriously who comes up with these ideas and thinks they'd be great because there is no thought into this at all you just haven't got a clue, you want to be splitting the zergs up not making them get bigger and win every time with a meatbag in this dumb down pvp because that's exactly what's going to happen.

the underpopulated side will never take a keep if this goes through.

what are you talking about. guess who uses seige when defending a keep. typically it is the smaller groups and the underpopulated groups. that means when you only have 10 people defending a keep and 30 running in the seige may actually flip the fight in the smaller groups favor. As it stands right now seige does not allow this.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

Really? All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.

this is just going to make the zergs more stronger, smaller groups won't have a chance to anything.

seriously who comes up with these ideas and thinks they'd be great because there is no thought into this at all you just haven't got a clue, you want to be splitting the zergs up not making them get bigger and win every time with a meatbag in this dumb down pvp because that's exactly what's going to happen.

the underpopulated side will never take a keep if this goes through.

what are you talking about. guess who uses seige when defending a keep. typically it is the smaller groups and the underpopulated groups. that means when you only have 10 people defending a keep and 30 running in the seige may actually flip the fight in the smaller groups favor. As it stands right now seige does not allow this.

Image that you fight a 24 man group as a 12 man group. 4 of these 24 put up a siege and you are still outnumbered 20 to 12 or even less if you've got some on siege as well, so who do you think will win the 24 people or the 12 with the healing reduction that is unpurgeable with the current aoe caps? I said take a keep not defend.

RoamingRiverElk

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

@bowmanz607
Obviously the larger groups will use siege aswell. And because they are way more they will be able to place way more sieges.

Compare a 12 man group to a 24 man group. Who will be affected more by this change? The solution to this change will be to bring even more people to a fight.

as i have stated many times already. a zerg is not placing seige when they are storming through a hole in the keep. It is only after they secure an area in a keep that they place siege. This helps prevent them from securing an area to place seige. Also, now multiple seige targeting one area will be able todestroy that area. UNlike right now where a player just sits in 3 or 4 sige hitting them.

The zerg will be sieging the breach. The defenders can't stand there.

timidobserver

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Hey one more clarification. I understand that you can no longer remove/purge snares. However, does the change also apply to abilities that provide you with immunity snares? In other words, is it possible to be immune to siege snares?

Talcyndl

TheBull wrote: »

Group up? Purge purge purge? Maneuvers? Purge purge purge? If this is you "squad". This is intended to affect you adversely.

Don't forget...

Charge Prox Det.

Move into enemies.

Spam Steel Tornado.



Yes, this change is clearly intended to negatively impact those groups. Personally, I approve of that (speaking as someone who has run with some very good Blobs).

The play style is mostly mindless, and the lag impact is pretty obvious.

nordickittyhawk

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

• Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.
• Snares have been normalized on all siege weapons that apply that debuff (ice treb, lightning ballista, oil catapult) to be a 50% snare, and last 6 seconds.
• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
• Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
• Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.
• Ballista now turn faster and have their "scatter" variable removed, making them 100% accurate to your aimed location.
• Scattershot now adds 20% damage taken from other siege weapons instead of 10%

Thanks for any feedback regarding these changes and again, these may or may not go up to PTS/Live exactly as stated here, but this is what we're currently testing

OMG the magic n stamina changes... i actually love that idea!!!

bowmanz607

Morostyle wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Morostyle wrote: »

WTF IS THIS ***? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
THIS IS RIP

So now a zerg can wipe anyone with 1 meatbag?
How u gonna defend a keep 10 man vs 30+?

only way I see this work is a group kiting a zerg in open world and use meatbag to initate - but good luck with the lag

[REMOVE AOE CAP WITH THIS AND IM GLAD] IF NOT - Q_Q

This makes no sense. A zerg just runs in a keep in a ball. Siege is not effective right now. They dont need to drop a meatbag o kill anyone THEY ARE ZERGING!. Moreover, when a zerg is taking a keep they are not using siege to charge up the stairs and all that. The defending team is the one using the siege and have their seige defense set up inside the keep. This gives tools to the smaller groups to actually kill the zergs as they try pushing up the stairs. as it stands, this is not possible. This forces groups to split up because they actually have a penalty for being hit with siege.

From my experience - those zergs we fight pop firebalista and meatbags @ the upper flag from breach.. which means, we cant push that flag since 30 stack + siege? which leaves us with the main gate flag, followed up by enemies runing upstairs and oiling? eeeh.. and they might just add a meatbag on the upper flag, shooting maingate flag, since they have the flag covered by 3-4 sieges from breachside + postern?

here you seem to be talking about a group taking a keep having problems taking the keep. If i am reading that correctly. And yes I think it should be hard for groups to take a keep. A keep is meant to be maintain and defended by small numbers against larger numbers. IN fact this is how it was back in the day. This is not only how they were designed in the game, but also in real life. Strongholds such as a keep are meant to allow small numbers to defend it which is currently not the case. So having a large number of players defending a keep should be even easier for them. Lastly, you seem to be commenting on the difficulty from breaching the door. The door is by far the worst place to breach when a keep is properly defended even currently exactly for the reason of the amount of oils present at a door.

Lava_Croft

Thank you!

Kwivur

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." Sun Tsu

Jhunn

Talcyndl wrote: »

Don't forget...

Charge Prox Det.

Move into enemies.

Spam Steel Tornado.



Yes, this change is clearly intended to negatively impact those groups. Personally, I approve of that (speaking as someone who has run with some very good Blobs).

The play style is mostly mindless, and the lag impact is pretty obvious.

But who's lagging? The 10 coordinated people or the 40 pugs running the same place? The 10 people are the ones who this will affect negatively. Not the 40 pugs or 24 man zergs.

Remdale

If you're a defender and you're trading siege blows you're doing it wrong.