Upcoming siege changes in next major update

mike.eso

I'm all for this change, or at least seeing how it tests on PTS. PVP needs something to spice it up, maybe this will help.

Sotha_Sil

Galalin wrote: »

Just one question..... When the hell are you guys gonna start listening to the player base on what they want? nobody asked for this!!!! you have countless threads on what will help the PvP in this game and yet you (meaning ZoS) ask us for feedback then come back with some garbage that nobody has asked for?????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL? can you not concede the fact that the player base may know what they want? or can you not handle the fact that someone else came up with an idea better than your own?

Why even ask us anymore just finish ruining your game... after all its not I who will be unemployed with a reputation that will follow me around the rest of my career.

Did you ever stop to think a million heads are smarter than the couple you have there at Zeni?

DK SCRUB OUT

Some people asked for siege buff in case you didn't know...

vortexman11

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

I keep seeing you post this, but whenever I see you in Cyrodiil you're with DiG surrounded by 30 other people sieging down groups you already outnumber.

bowmanz607

Morostyle wrote: »

WTF IS THIS ***? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
THIS IS RIP

So now a zerg can wipe anyone with 1 meatbag?
How u gonna defend a keep 10 man vs 30+?

only way I see this work is a group kiting a zerg in open world and use meatbag to initate - but good luck with the lag

[REMOVE AOE CAP WITH THIS AND IM GLAD] IF NOT - Q_Q

This makes no sense. A zerg just runs in a keep in a ball. Siege is not effective right now. They dont need to drop a meatbag o kill anyone THEY ARE ZERGING!. Moreover, when a zerg is taking a keep they are not using siege to charge up the stairs and all that. The defending team is the one using the siege and have their seige defense set up inside the keep. This gives tools to the smaller groups to actually kill the zergs as they try pushing up the stairs. as it stands, this is not possible. This forces groups to split up because they actually have a penalty for being hit with siege.

tinythinker

Talcyndl wrote: »

Zerg is such a meaningless word - or at least one with too many meanings such that it makes the discussion unclear.

Yeah the other day I was in a 6 player group that was called a "zerg". So basically it's gone from 2-3 raids (raid=24 players) or more being a "zerg" to a single raid being a "zerg" to half a raid and now a quarter of a raid.

Love Wizard

However Zenimax, if this is your way of preventing your players leaving this game for other MMO's, then keep it up, you're doing a fantastic job.

Jhunn

vortexman11 wrote: »

I keep seeing you post this, but whenever I see you in Cyrodiil you're with DiG surrounded by 30 other people sieging down groups you already outnumber.

Haha. Says all about this change really.

TheBull

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Zerger arguing for the small group. This is rich.

Talcyndl

Galalin wrote: »

Just one question..... When the hell are you guys gonna start listening to the player base on what they want? nobody asked for this!!!! you have countless threads on what will help the PvP in this game and yet you (meaning ZoS) ask us for feedback then come back with some garbage that nobody has asked for?????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL? can you not concede the fact that the player base may know what they want? or can you not handle the fact that someone else came up with an idea better than your own?

Why even ask us anymore just finish ruining your game... after all its not I who will be unemployed with a reputation that will follow me around the rest of my career.

Did you ever stop to think a million heads are smarter than the couple you have there at Zeni?

DK SCRUB OUT

A lot of people have asked for siege to be made effective against purge spamming Blobs.

driosketch

Okay someone explain to me how non purgable meat bags favors numbers? Often I have found myself dending keeps against a larger seige group and watching as they shrug off my counter siege. I've also been on the reverse, droping purifying ritual and a breath between reloads. As a defender, with less room to place seige, this is better. (And before anyone says it, it is a bit easier to hit players on the ground below than up on the wall.) A small group could also decimate a zergball rushing through a breach with this change.

I guess a large number of spread out players could slaughter a group of players stacked in a train spamming AoE. But that would require smarter play on the former's part, so I don't have an issue with that.

For a 3-5 player gank group vs. a dozen or fewer, the seige is too slow to be an issue.

Bottom line, this doesn't hurt small groups, it hurts the balls.

bowmanz607

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'm gob smacked! Why are you wasting time and money on this? We're asking for fixes on PvP (players vs players, class balance, the AoE caps, zerging). Not the stuff that knocks walls down, they already do a really, really good job at that.

this helps with zerging. it forces them to split up cause seige actually gives them a penalty. ALso, we know there are some other bug changes occuring for balance so calm down and wait to see what they are. Brian just gave us a tiny little taste.

themdogesbite

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

Yeah, in what possible instance do the small group of arround 10 - 12 people compared to a large zerg of 24+ spread all over the keep, pleaceing sieges on the postern doors, oils above the flags and over the meatbags.. They DONT, they cannot spare the numbers for this.

Talcyndl

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Blob groups don't use siege against other players. If a few of them do, they at least become vulnerable because they are no longer in the healing springs/purge bubble of Prox Tornado.

CP5

I'm honestly just glad there is a thread about what the devs are planning, posted before the changes are impliment, with responses that aren't delayed by weeks. This is the kind of thing I was hoping Wrobel was going to make, and it will be nice for the lone individual with a good shot to hit a zerg's blind side, but again more numbers = more siege. Brian, I would love to see PTS used for more than just major patch testing a month in advance of those patches, if possible could these kind of changes be put there as soon as possible so major changes and feedback can happen?

Also @Galalin, people have been saying for a while how siege is lacking, these changes would fix that.

Sanct16

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

@bowmanz607
Obviously the larger groups will use siege aswell. And because they are way more they will be able to place way more sieges.

Compare a 12 man group to a 24 man group. Who will be affected more by this change? The solution to this change will be to bring even more people to a fight.

myrrrorb14_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

We'll have to wait and see. But potentially this can hurt the small group defenders as well. They are just as susceptible to siege effects as the larger attacking force.

sirinsidiator

One question. How do these new changes interact with Siege Bubbles? Will the debuffs just work through them, be weaker or do not apply at all?

Sotha_Sil

What if unpurgeable buff would be applied ONLY if the number of targets hit is superior to a specific number (12 ? 15 ? 20?) ?

themdogesbite

TheBull wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Zerger arguing for the small group. This is rich.

No idea who you are for starters, but judgeing by your forum post you have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about or you didnt play the game before 1.6.

Morostyle

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Morostyle wrote: »

WTF IS THIS ***? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
THIS IS RIP

So now a zerg can wipe anyone with 1 meatbag?
How u gonna defend a keep 10 man vs 30+?

only way I see this work is a group kiting a zerg in open world and use meatbag to initate - but good luck with the lag

[REMOVE AOE CAP WITH THIS AND IM GLAD] IF NOT - Q_Q

This makes no sense. A zerg just runs in a keep in a ball. Siege is not effective right now. They dont need to drop a meatbag o kill anyone THEY ARE ZERGING!. Moreover, when a zerg is taking a keep they are not using siege to charge up the stairs and all that. The defending team is the one using the siege and have their seige defense set up inside the keep. This gives tools to the smaller groups to actually kill the zergs as they try pushing up the stairs. as it stands, this is not possible. This forces groups to split up because they actually have a penalty for being hit with siege.

From my experience - those zergs we fight pop firebalista and meatbags @ the upper flag from breach.. which means, we cant push that flag since 30 stack + siege? which leaves us with the main gate flag, followed up by enemies runing upstairs and oiling? eeeh.. and they might just add a meatbag on the upper flag, shooting maingate flag, since they have the flag covered by 3-4 sieges from breachside + postern?

RoamingRiverElk

Imagine four people trying to defend a resource against twelve. The NPCs are sniped, and the 12 can easily have three people using two siege each on opposing sides of the resource onto the flag. And now healing debuff is unpurgeable on top of that?

These changes keep coming in, and small group play is more and more about being a sorc or nb. Well, stamina dk can use retreating maneuver, but that's hardly fighting. That's more like... running away from fights.

Morostyle

Talcyndl wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Blob groups don't use siege against other players. If a few of them do, they at least become vulnerable because they are no longer in the healing springs/purge bubble of Prox Tornado.

Blob groups ALWAYS use sieges vs us, A-L-W-A-Y-S +3-6 sieges vs 10 man group

AllPlayAndNoWork

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

[*] Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
[*] Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.
[*] Ballista now turn faster and have their "scatter" variable removed, making them 100% accurate to your aimed location.
[*] Scattershot now adds 20% damage taken from other siege weapons instead of 10%


That should do it. No need to go further than that.

themdogesbite

Talcyndl wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Blob groups don't use siege against other players. If a few of them do, they at least become vulnerable because they are no longer in the healing springs/purge bubble of Prox Tornado.

On EU theres a siege up in 99% of all fights between groups.

bowmanz607

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

sorry but even in a small group you need to drop seige to fight a larger one. You really tell me that if your a group of 8 fighting a group of 24 you dont drop even one siege? you should work on that it will really help. Also, think about when seige is actually used. It is used primarily for keeps and resources. When a large group charges a keep they are you know charging the keep and no longer outside on siege. It is the group defending that has the siege and typically the group defending is the small group. WHen do you really ever see a large group in open feild combat really using siege? only on rare occasions and usually when it is blob v blob not 24 v 8.

themdogesbite

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

sorry but even in a small group you need to drop seige to fight a larger one. You really tell me that if your a group of 8 fighting a group of 24 you dont drop even one siege? you should work on that it will really help. Also, think about when seige is actually used. It is used primarily for keeps and resources. When a large group charges a keep they are you know charging the keep and no longer outside on siege. It is the group defending that has the siege and typically the group defending is the small group. WHen do you really ever see a large group in open feild combat really using siege? only on rare occasions and usually when it is blob v blob not 24 v 8.

Sometimes we can pop up a siege for one shot if theres enough time, but honestly in most scenarios its just not fesable or possible.

And yes, it is VERY common that people place a buttload of siege against my group, no matter the size.

bowmanz607

Galalin wrote: »

Just one question..... When the hell are you guys gonna start listening to the player base on what they want? nobody asked for this!!!! you have countless threads on what will help the PvP in this game and yet you (meaning ZoS) ask us for feedback then come back with some garbage that nobody has asked for?????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL? can you not concede the fact that the player base may know what they want? or can you not handle the fact that someone else came up with an idea better than your own?

Why even ask us anymore just finish ruining your game... after all its not I who will be unemployed with a reputation that will follow me around the rest of my career.

Did you ever stop to think a million heads are smarter than the couple you have there at Zeni?

DK SCRUB OUT

clam down. we know next patch will come with a bunch of balances. Brian was kind enough to share a taste of that with us. hold your griefing about balance until we see what other changes they implement.

WebBull

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

Yeah, in what possible instance do the small group of arround 10 - 12 people compared to a large zerg of 24+ spread all over the keep, pleaceing sieges on the postern doors, oils above the flags and over the meatbags.. They DONT, they cannot spare the numbers for this.

I can think of quite a few. The main one being after the wall is down and the zerg is rushing in the breach. The zerg isn't sieging at that point so these changes definitely help the smaller defending group.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

These changes make ansolutely 0 sense... i could understand buffing the siege damage 10-20% but making meatbags unpurgable is well beyond idiotic. I honestly want to know who makes up these decisions when there's so many suggestions from the PvP players base on how to counter the zergs and all manner of ball groups. If you think that small groups get buffed by this its pretty much obvious you have no clue what you re talking about because you either never played in an organised small group or you re just a casual running with the pug zerg. These changes will pretty much kill small and medium scale pvp and make sieging keeps a nightmare since we are already struggling fighting superior numbers.

Galalin

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Just one question..... When the hell are you guys gonna start listening to the player base on what they want? nobody asked for this!!!! you have countless threads on what will help the PvP in this game and yet you (meaning ZoS) ask us for feedback then come back with some garbage that nobody has asked for?????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL? can you not concede the fact that the player base may know what they want? or can you not handle the fact that someone else came up with an idea better than your own?

Why even ask us anymore just finish ruining your game... after all its not I who will be unemployed with a reputation that will follow me around the rest of my career.

Did you ever stop to think a million heads are smarter than the couple you have there at Zeni?

DK SCRUB OUT

Some people asked for siege buff in case you didn't know...

Talcyndl wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Just one question..... When the hell are you guys gonna start listening to the player base on what they want? nobody asked for this!!!! you have countless threads on what will help the PvP in this game and yet you (meaning ZoS) ask us for feedback then come back with some garbage that nobody has asked for?????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL? can you not concede the fact that the player base may know what they want? or can you not handle the fact that someone else came up with an idea better than your own?

Why even ask us anymore just finish ruining your game... after all its not I who will be unemployed with a reputation that will follow me around the rest of my career.

Did you ever stop to think a million heads are smarter than the couple you have there at Zeni?

DK SCRUB OUT

A lot of people have asked for siege to be made effective against purge spamming Blobs.

This is not effective.... THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!!

how much more can they dumb down a game? we are gonna have countless alts battle lvl'ed for the stat increases and heath running siege everywhere.

What the hell becomes the point of gear and lvling? it will make no difference how good your char/build/gear is when a lvl 10 battle lvl'ed char earns enough AP to buy siege.

I mean whats the point of char progression? whats next gear that enhances siege damage? like wtf?

They may aswell put in siege vehicles and call it battlefield

DK SCRUB OUT