Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Love Wizard

Nafirian wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

Spoken like a true zergling

Can't agree more with this.. Zenimax, please give some love for the small scale groups in Cyrodiil? 50% damage reduction was harsh, dynamic ulti regen was harsh, now no longer able to purge meatbags?

Lorkhan

retreating maneuver grants immunity to snares and immobilizations, removing any already applied. right?

Turelus

Nafirian wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

Spoken like a true zergling

Spoken by someone who spent years in EVE Online where I didn't have my hand held by developers when I wanted small scale PvP and got blobbed (zerged). Part of the gameplay style within PvP for small gang and skirmish warfare is avoiding what outmatches our outnumbers you. You change from a head on attack to skirmishing taking hits at your opponents and then breaking off again, spread them out and take down. If anything the siege weapons changes help smaller groups because they're going to hit them harder. Assuming they also remove the AoE cap and you have your zerg buster weapons.

Cyrodiil needs to function in a way which allows all styles of gameplay without the developers making it about one group of players because they won't be able to cater to everyone.

They should have keeps and sieges focused on fighting with large groups, that's what these were designed around.
Resources were designed for smaller groups to battle over so make changes around that area for smaller groups, maybe even include a siege exclusion zone around these.

But I digress from the topic at hand.

themdogesbite

Orchish wrote: »

Huge thread about siege weapons lack of threat against players, they finally make some changes to make it something you really want to avoid again and people still complain. Can't win. Why not wait and test it out before complaining?

Everything is fine besides unremovable healingdebuffs. Already outnumbered heavily and we have to deal with permanent major defile on us 24/7 with 2 healers?...

That is not the solution. I wonder whos sitting at the office thinking "what can we mess up today." Unbeliveable.

andy_s

Too bad all good intentions will be nullified by lags and new bugs.

WillhelmBlack

Nafirian wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Its ok Sanct

Crying

Sanct16

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

Just because your guild sucks and cant do anything without 50 people, doesnt mean everyone else should be punished just so that you are finally able to kill something.

Hexys

Deltia wrote: »

I think these are interesting changes that need to be tested prior to implementation. Lowbie PvP the only way to really kill a large group is with siege or pure numbers. If you want to "counter zerg" maybe this will help. Image snaring a group of 24, healing debuff, and zapping their magic. That large group is much easier to fight with less healing and healers with zero magicka.I've been on both sides of the zerg and I hope we get on the PTS to test this concept.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einsten

If we, as community, wish to disincentives zergs, ZOS must try something different, anything really. Is this the fix? I don't know, but it's worthy pursing different options.

Image that you fight a 24 man group as a 12 man group. 4 of these 24 put up a siege and you are still outnumbered 20 to 12 in raw numbers + get sieged like a maniac.

Get rid of those AoE Caps and make damage scale up to the amount of enemies hit. Skill should always be able to make the difference, not because game mechanics are unbalanced.

themdogesbite

Turelus wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

Remember from it's original design the main aspect of Cyrodiil PvP is about keep battles with hundreds of players. Siege weapons should be balanced around large scale battles for keeps because that's when they're seen most.

Small gang PvP shouldn't be based around keeps but have other areas where it flourishes. Sandbox PvP (which Cyrodiil emulates) is about each group and style finding its place within the sandbox and playing with the tools the developers give them in the most effective way. ZOS shouldn't have a stance one way or the other on which style of gameplay should be played.

Remember that from the original design we got told that the game would be able to handle hundreds of players on the screen at once. The game we play today determend that it was a lie.

RoamingRiverElk

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Thanks for the info. I would reconsider that distinction. The alliance war purge is an easy button aoe spammable negative effect remover. Dark cloak is single target and purifying ritual requires a synergy for it to work on other players and synergy already has a cool down.

The specific problem is the alliance war purge. Rather than the scattershot approach, just fix the specific problem which is purge.

DKs have no proper shield to protect while not being able to heal, nor do they have a class purge. So no. If this bad decision is to be put in the game, at least have it affect all classes equally. Except of course, it still wouldn't affect the classes equally because DKs cannot run fast unless they're stamina DKs, nor use damage shields effectively, nor cloak / shadow image away, nor bolt away and survive like that.

Sotha_Sil

I'm honestly worried this (unpurgeable stuff) will make keeps harder to get and thus increasing the lag on these encounters.

bowmanz607

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

WebBull

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

Huge thread about siege weapons lack of threat against players, they finally make some changes to make it something you really want to avoid again and people still complain. Can't win. Why not wait and test it out before complaining?

Everything is fine besides unremovable healingdebuffs. Already outnumbered heavily and we have to deal with permanent major defile on us 24/7 with 2 healers?...

That is not the solution. I wonder whos sitting at the office thinking "what can we mess up today." Unbeliveable.

Except that DoT must not be purgeable. Right now DoT's on siege are completely useless because of purge.

Tomato

This should speed up the Zerg vs Zerg fights instead of the endless stacking and spamming abilities which cause lag.

TheBull

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

Huge thread about siege weapons lack of threat against players, they finally make some changes to make it something you really want to avoid again and people still complain. Can't win. Why not wait and test it out before complaining?

Everything is fine besides unremovable healingdebuffs. Already outnumbered heavily and we have to deal with permanent major defile on us 24/7 with 2 healers?...

That is not the solution. I wonder whos sitting at the office thinking "what can we mess up today." Unbeliveable.

You might have to spread out?

WillhelmBlack

Sublime wrote: »

Does the Magicka/Stamina reduction take place with each hit or is it like the magelight -5%?

Good question but I bet they'll stack together, completely wiping a group of 6 players.

Ffastyl

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Anything that removes a "negative" effect is considered a purge, so not just the "Purge" abliity as you noted.

Thanks for the info. I would reconsider that distinction. The alliance war purge is an easy button aoe spammable negative effect remover. Dark cloak is single target and purifying ritual requires a synergy for it to work on other players and synergy already has a cool down.

The specific problem is the alliance war purge. Rather than the scattershot approach, just fix the specific problem which is purge.

For Cleansing Ritual, sure, but Dark Cloak...? Allowing Cleansing Ritual to remove siege debuffs is a nice buff for Templars and not overpowering to groups/zergs because aside from the Templar caster, debuff removal has a cooldown, thanks to synergy cooldowns. Dark Cloak only removes DoTs from the caster - no direct group benefit - so I am less inclined to let this ability purge siege effects.

Nafirian

TheBull wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

Huge thread about siege weapons lack of threat against players, they finally make some changes to make it something you really want to avoid again and people still complain. Can't win. Why not wait and test it out before complaining?

Everything is fine besides unremovable healingdebuffs. Already outnumbered heavily and we have to deal with permanent major defile on us 24/7 with 2 healers?...

That is not the solution. I wonder whos sitting at the office thinking "what can we mess up today." Unbeliveable.

You might have to spread out?

BWHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHHAAHAHAHAHA

Lorkhan

any word about lag fix or AP rewards?

Jhunn

TheBull wrote: »

This small group argument again?

Yes. Small groups doesn't kill the server.

Anything else?

Turelus

You know, it's actually no wonder PvP is in such a terrible place when the entire of this thread became poop slinging within two pages.

Get over the ego and epeen and start giving constructive feedback and criticism with theory crafting and numbers aimed at ZOS or debunking other numbers rather than...

ZERG BAD!!! SMALL GROUP BAD!! ZERG BAD!!! SMALL GROUP BAD!!! as a PvP community we're pretty pathetic.

Talcyndl

Zerg is such a meaningless word - or at least one with too many meanings such that it makes the discussion unclear.

A ton of "X" faction rushing to a keep and setting up siege to take down a wall is, very often, called a zerg. And to the outnumbered defenders it is.

But the game atm isn't being broken with lag from those gatherings. It's being broken by the Blob groups spamming Steel Detonation and Proximity Tornado, along with healing springs and purge. Those Blob groups are SUPREMELY powerful because as long as they all "Stick on Crown" they are basically immune to incoming damage (including multiple siege hits) and are able to spam AoE to instantly kill any player within their radius.

Those groups rarely, if ever, use siege against other players. Siege requires them to spread out and negates their primary advantage.

Those groups are a symptom of a broken PvP combat system that is utterly ignored by the "Combat and Ability" team.

Those groups contribute significantly to lag.

Those groups, hopefully, will become a vulnerable to siege. No more running around keeps and into resources laughing as they purge and heal through multiple siege hits. Suddenly, Blobbing has a disadvantage.

AoE caps is an issue that the PvP folks at ZOS are powerless to address - and that the others at ZOS are apparently unwilling to change for fear of impacting their PvE players.

Jhunn

Turelus wrote: »

You know, it's actually no wonder PvP is in such a terrible place when the entire of this thread became poop slinging within two pages.

Get over the ego and epeen and start giving constructive feedback and criticism with theory crafting and numbers aimed at ZOS or debunking other numbers rather than...

ZERG BAD!!! SMALL GROUP BAD!! ZERG BAD!!! SMALL GROUP BAD!!! as a PvP community we're pretty pathetic.

I think it has been proven in the AOE caps discussion threads that constructive feedback and criticism doesn't help much.

HeroOfNone

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

• Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.
• Snares have been normalized on all siege weapons that apply that debuff (ice treb, lightning ballista, oil catapult) to be a 50% snare, and last 6 seconds.
• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
• Oil Catapults will now also have a "Stamina damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Stamina from enemy targets.
• Lightning Ballista will now also have a "Magicka Damage" value added, which takes away roughly 5000 Magicka from enemy targets.
• Ballista now turn faster and have their "scatter" variable removed, making them 100% accurate to your aimed location.
• Scattershot now adds 20% damage taken from other siege weapons instead of 10%

Thanks for any feedback regarding these changes and again, these may or may not go up to PTS/Live exactly as stated here, but this is what we're currently testing

The magicka and stamina damage, THIS is the big change to me that needs to be applied to player abilities as well. Apply stamina/magicka damage to some of the unused abilities and we may actually have a complex pvp system with fewer cookie cutter builds.

Side question, with the scattershot increase, will that apply to the stamina/magicka damage as well, or is thst only health damage?

bowmanz607

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

Really? All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.

this is just going to make the zergs more stronger, smaller groups won't have a chance to anything.

seriously who comes up with these ideas and thinks they'd be great because there is no thought into this at all you just haven't got a clue, you want to be splitting the zergs up not making them get bigger and win every time with a meatbag in this dumb down pvp because that's exactly what's going to happen.

the underpopulated side will never take a keep if this goes through.

what are you talking about. guess who uses seige when defending a keep. typically it is the smaller groups and the underpopulated groups. that means when you only have 10 people defending a keep and 30 running in the seige may actually flip the fight in the smaller groups favor. As it stands right now seige does not allow this.

Lexxypwns

TheBull wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to clarify, the DOT on Flame Trebs and Flame Ballista can still be purged....for now.

Man the only people upset are the hardcore, never leave their zerg players.

Can't wait to check it out.

So much this, add in removal of AoE caps and this might be the thing that finally breaks up ball groups

olsborg

This is fantastic, finally mindless purgetrains cant steamroll ppl who arent as "mindless" as them. I wouldnt mind a 50% increase in dmg either. GJ ZOS, now fix that lagg.

bowmanz607

Sanct16 wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Why do you hate small groups so much? This will make it even harder for groups that arent 24 man raids. You should promote smaller groups, not destroy them.

i keep seeing this. please explain how this hurts small groups? This is a tool for small groups to use to break up the larger groups and spread them out. it also allows small groups to defend a keep against ball groups. How does this hurt small groups?

themdogesbite

bowmanz607 wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

"All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable."

This is NOT the way to go at all... compare a group of 12 and a group of 24, guess three times which group gets affected the most from healing reduction.

WHY DO YOU LOVE NUMBERS SO MUCH, WHY!?

one we dont know what other balances are coming that will compliment these change.
Second, even on its own, this change gives tools to smaller groups to fight those larger groups. also, instead of one blob fighting another blob on one pin for 20 min while the server lags out will no longer be the most effective way to fight. No the side defending the resource or keep will have the advantage of seige be it 6 v 24 or 24 v 60 or even 40 v 40 etc. Moreover, this will change the strategy used by the groups on the offensive because it will no longer be advisable to just stick on crown and move in would big blob. Although not gone completely it will be minimized.

Wrong, the larger group is always the one that can spare people to place sieges, a smaller one can NOT!

Galalin

Just one question..... When the hell are you guys gonna start listening to the player base on what they want? nobody asked for this!!!! you have countless threads on what will help the PvP in this game and yet you (meaning ZoS) ask us for feedback then come back with some garbage that nobody has asked for?????

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL? can you not concede the fact that the player base may know what they want? or can you not handle the fact that someone else came up with an idea better than your own?

Why even ask us anymore just finish ruining your game... after all its not I who will be unemployed with a reputation that will follow me around the rest of my career.

Did you ever stop to think a million heads are smarter than the couple you have there at Zeni?

DK SCRUB OUT