AoE Caps Discussion

wigglesgaming26

It doesn't matter if we "let it die" or not, this discussion is already dead to Zenimax. You're just beating a dead horse at this time guys

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Dear @Wrobel,

I think Fengrush has the right of it with his ideas. I dearly love this game and want it to do well. I've made it my leisure time home for a LOT of reasons.

This game runs BEAUTIFULLY on my PC. The wonderfully optimized engine allows me to take full advantage of my hardware, unlike most MMORPGs I've played.

The core gaming systems are AMAZING. From the class system to the combat system to the crafting system - everything has been so well-executed.

As far as PvE content, I couldn't ask for more. I've never been a raid/dungeon guy in other games, but this game grabs me by the ear and DRAGS me in. It's just that good.

But our PvP has suffered, primarily from performance issues. But you have very good resources at your disposal in the person of @FENGRUSH and others like him who really know their stuff and are passionate about making this game the best it can be. It would be a mistake, I think, not to prioritize their input.

Eric, thank you so much for starting this discussion and seeking our feedback. Looking forward to many more years of fun in Tamriel!

PainfulFAFA

Aektann wrote: »

@Wrobel REMOVE AOE caps!

too bad it wont go away
this was always meant to be THE official place to

KenaPKK wrote: »

If we let this thread die, they'll never change AoE caps.

You're right
Viva la resistànce

Vaoh

Cool that you created a discussion for AOE Caps.... but are they going to go away anytime soon?

vontariel

Doncellius wrote: »

Cool that you created a discussion for AOE Caps.... but are they going to go away anytime soon?

Soon is an official trademark of <DELETED>.
As defined by <DELETED>: "Soon" does not imply any particular date, time, decade, century, or millennia in the past, present, and certainly not the future. "Soon" shall make no contract or warranty between <DELETED> and the end user. "Soon" will arrive some day, <DELETED> does guarantee that "soon" will be here before the end of time. Maybe. Do not make plans based on "soon" as <DELETED> will not be liable for any misuse, use, or even casual glancing at "soon."

For elder scrolls online term "No ETA" is used, regarding changes/releases etc.

AddictionX

How many months has it been now....

Anzriel

AddictionX wrote: »

How many months has it been now....

Since this thread was created? Like 6 months or so? Anyway, AoE caps are still an issue. I wonder if Wrobel sees this, or if he honestly feels vicious death and the new proxy are a good solution? Unfortunately I don't think we'll hear anymore from him about the subject, which is sad. I guess people can keep mentioning it and hope for the best, but sadly I think it's too late. Especially since he seems to fundamentally ignore the core issue.

Xargomir

Is it too late to sign the AoE Caps petition? Is there a petition? We should make a petition.

wigglesgaming26

zenimax is broken, can we fix it please.

AddictionX

Anzriel wrote: »

AddictionX wrote: »

How many months has it been now....

Since this thread was created? Like 6 months or so? Anyway, AoE caps are still an issue. I wonder if Wrobel sees this, or if he honestly feels vicious death and the new proxy are a good solution? Unfortunately I don't think we'll hear anymore from him about the subject, which is sad. I guess people can keep mentioning it and hope for the best, but sadly I think it's too late. Especially since he seems to fundamentally ignore the core issue.

Rhetorical question maybe? Perhaps? Anyway, I thought that was clear .... I did not use a (?)

PainfulFAFA

I just realized we have had AoE Caps for 1 year.... x_x

vontariel

Even more tbh.

Moglijuana

And still, zero f**ks were given from @Wrobel the day this was made. Fast forward 6 months. Even less than zero.#zerglife

VoiDGhOs7

Still nothing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQ6eHeBrhM

Solus

FENGRUSH wrote: »

It is finally here, and the opening post leads me to believe were talking about issues around large scale PvP instead of AOE caps - so Im going to jump right in on this.

Wrobel wrote: »

Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Ive heard this idea dropped in one of our We Are ESO podcasts by you before Wrobel and Id like to strike at it in more detail. If healing and damage mechanics were the same (picking random targets) this issue with AOE caps wouldnt be as bad as they are. But because of smart healing (which I dont expect you to remove or change due to it being core to your game since its inception) is what makes the damage get the short end of the stick.


If youre hitting 16 people, and 6 for full at a time, youre picking 6 different targets each time. If youre hitting 24, or 30 players, the statistical chance you hit the target that you wanted to hit, who you previously put the most damage on, keeps getting worse and worse. Ultimately, its extremely unlikely to hit the target you want and burst that guy down. Instead, you have to throw out overwhelming amounts of damage and actually out damage their healing by a large margin in a short span of time (something not possible when significantly outnumbered. This becomes impossible when you factor in templar ult for reduction but more importantly: barrier.

Now you mentioned barrier, which is great. This ability absolutely and completely counters a burst from realistically happening. It also is compounded by the fact that you cant even crit shields (an issue shared with small scale magicka sorcs - but to stay on course here) the amount of uncrittable damage 1 barrier provides a full group is absolutely ridiculous.

All in all, AOE caps creates a situation that encourages you to bring numbers SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MORE YOU HAVE, THE MORE CHANCE YOULL TAKE 50% DAMAGE. It creates quantity over quality. Quantity already provides you the advantage of having more tools and bodies at your disposal.

I really wont be satisfied with anything short of full removal of AOE caps - because if you just raise the bar up, you have the same issue at a larger scale and youre not fixing the problem, youre promoting a worse one. To have more people stack more people.


Whoever takes the most damage, will get all of the heals, because smart healing targets whoever is lowest. Damage is randomly picking targets. Because of this design - you need to remove AOE caps.

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful.

Single target abilities will still be useful - 100%. In fact, I cant even AOE groups if theyre too big, the only viable option is to use single target to hope to burst through specific people. AOE is good, but its only as good as the numbers you have AOEing and the difference between what youre AOEing against. Again, the meta now because of the 50% damage nerf this patch is all about numbers. 50% less damage, then 50% from AOE caps if youre not the unlucky 6.

With that said - you should be discouraging people from balling up all of the time. THERE IS NO THREAT, NO RISK, NO REASON NOT TO. Fixing det is a good first step, but you shouldnt put 1 skill in the game that is the end all be all of countering these ball groups. The game design IS NOT GOOD to encourage this style of play. THERE MUST BE RISK INVOLVED, OR EVERYONE WILL DO IT. This is what Cyrodiil has become, because that is what has been promoted by all of these changes.

When players are forced to split and scatter to avoid the damage or ults of another group trying to strike at them while theyre all grouped, THAT is when you would switch to single target. That is how you bring single target combat back into this equation. But a lot of these groups, they dont even use single target at all. Because you dont give them a reason to. They have gap closers, survivals, buffs/utility, and AOE. They will literally gap closer and use steel tornado because it may be there best skill to damage with. If you created a reason for people that they HAD TO SCATTER they would switch to their single target, and back to AOE when they have the ability to counter in the same fashion.

This style of PvP existed more before, it exists less today.

Wrobel wrote: »

The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it.

This plays into the first part but I want to come back to it again. A large group may take 500k damage, but a barrier will eat up most of that (this is post mitigation damage too, so its being spread pretty slowly) - and technically none of those people could have dropped below 10k hp despite receiving an equal amount of healing, because the smart healing is going to prioritize those who need it, while the damage is being spread all over the place. This system is so screwed up - Im not even sure how it can be tolerated as a thing for mass PvP.

It sends a clear message to me. You want the game to be more casual friendly and youre giving people a cushion so they dont have to play as well, or try as much. You dont want them to die easily and become discouraged. The reality is, youve lost just as much playerbase creating a ball group meta that has smothered your servers performance, its backfired in a gruesome way.

Additionally, this patch, more than any other, should allow players to take on AOE damage with the damage reduction, whereas in 1.6, it was easier to burst down with AOE. I get this game is for everyone, and I dont want to discourage people from playing it by making it too hard. But ultimately you have great players making great ball groups too that will crush these more casual players getting into larger groups if you actually did remove AOE caps just as well.

Removing AOE caps needs to be done because the game in its current state is 100% about quantity over quality. It has never before been as much about it as it is now, and if you dont take radical action to change this, you will lose what remains of players that want to create a great PvP environment. Theres a lot of alternatives around the corner - not to derail/threaten this offtopic, but its a reality. You need change quickly, and if you dont, a lot of the players who have stuck around through a lot of crap, are out once they find that magic we felt in earlier days of Cyro somewhere else.

Wrobel wrote: »

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

We use this on We are ESO podcasts, and its true - but I dont even know why you need to say this. Its like a reassurance to ball groups and zergs that you arent willing to make changes to bring things where they need to be. Which is GIVING EVERYONE A FAIR SHOT IN A FIGHT



Changes that should be made:

Immediate changes:

Step 1) Remove AOE caps [No discussion needed] (Wrobel Team)
Step 2) Change Barrier & Purge [Discussion needed: How do you do this? If you cast 1 barrier in a 24 man group and it hits 12, will a 2nd one hit the 12 who didnt get it? This will change things where groups simply run 2 barriers at a time. Will it randomly pick targets? This changes the design of it, and not necessarily in a bad way, but will alter how its functionally used by ball groups today. As far as purge is concerned, this will still be used to the effect it is today, even if you limited targets down to 4, they would assign 3-6 people that can purge. Consider how strong purge is and how it effects other things, like siege, otherwise changes here will be void.] (Wrobel Team)
Step 3) Make AP gains distributed equally across the board, no bonus for large groups. [No discussion needed] (Wheeler Team)
Step 4) Rework siege [Discussion needed - not testing] (Wheeler Team)


Post AOE caps:

Step 5) Evaluate Removal of AOE Caps; Discuss Dynamic Ult Gen [Discussion needed post AOE cap removal - NEW ult gen system, not like the old one, but not static] (Wrobel Team)

Going to stop there for now - because the list goes beyond mechanic changes at that point to design changes. The rest is design changes that can encourage people to be spread out, have other objectives and new things to do. Youve probably heard these ideas on the We Are ESO podcast if youve watched them. EI: City objectives and IC changes. These are mid/long term goals. The above is your short term IMMEDIATE goals that need to come in now.

Is any of this even being addressed? Like at all? @FENGRUSH should just be hired on already, the dude has hit the nail on the head so hard it flew through the board. Fixing the EXISTING content would ultimately bring and keep more players, which would in turn make ZOS more money.. Instead of trying to appeal to a newer customer base just to p*ss them off too, like you can only go through so many people before a majority are going to draw the same conclusion that the game is fun when the content is new to you and it's your first run through, but end game is a turd. It's a flop.

And for a company that has been here as long as it has, making games, this is embarrassing for ME. And i dont even work for ZOS or any of the partner companies. I loved PVP, a long time ago. I rarely even play now because for someone who is wanting to play end game stuff, I cant. There is no fun in it, it's broken, and the people I have ultimately given money to keep screwing around and aren't focusing resources to fix what is broken in a timely fashion.

Guaranteed if everything @FENGRUSH said was addressed and fixed, and they change the way people PVP, not only would it make the OG players happy, it will retain future long term players, which will make more money than pumping out sub par PVE DLC.

Just my two cents. I agree with Fengrush down to the salty tone I can hear in his typed words.