When VE plays Red

Aegonnn

lagpost

Aegonnn

lagpost

Abram

Hektik_V wrote: »

Meanwhile anyone trying to actually PvP was met with 999+ latency.

This^^^

Satiar

Aegon, you're the one telling me there's no challenge for your full raid. If your response to bad odds is to run small and stay on friendly territory, that's not my problem and you don't get to call yourself the best.

As for 10v10, who knows. I remember the Havoc vs No Mercy GvG if y'all want some good memories though.

Takllin

NPK Daniel wrote: »

I wrecked you at the teleporter in Glade, the bottom of the steps when Glade flipped, outside bleakers when you charged us, and up top in Glade twice I believe.

Every loss you had that night was at my hands I'm almost certain. You couldn't do it yourself, so like I said, you road the coat tails of Havok/Nexus (ie Walks being your healer, etc). I didn't ask for any outside help, as you requested, but you, LOL....

You literally fed me 150k trying Glade over and over and over again, yet you come on here bragging?

I didn't say anything after the fight as I felt we proved our point clearly whipping you several times (count them -- more times then you whipped us). But I guess we're gonna have to make you part of our highlight reel too :-)

You didn't ask for any outside help?? You and your guild all directed the entirety of DC to come help defend Glade with you after you got pushed from Chalman backwards.

Having a few members from separate guilds, while still maintaining at least 3/4ths of the group as VE is not riding coat tails Daniel. You should know a thing or two about that.

Stop trying to take credit for what the rest of DC helped you do. You and Alma do it all the time. You needed almost the entire DC population to stop EP at Glade. To say that it was all you and that no one else helped wipe them, is ignorant at best.

You even said so in zone afterwards that you lost...now your going back on that to try and act like you won because you made 150k AP, supposedly? VE did what they said they would, with help from other guilds when it became apparent you were going to summon the entirety of DC to help you after losing keeps.

Aegonnn

Satiar wrote: »

Aegon, you're the one telling me there's no challenge for your full raid. If your response to bad odds is to run small and stay on friendly territory, that's not my problem and you don't get to call yourself the best.

As for 10v10, who knows. I remember the Havoc vs No Mercy GvG if y'all want some good memories though.

never said we were the best i said YOU guys arent, and it was NO challenge for a havoc full raid at all, the maps were red in an hour if that happened

Your zergling mind has twisted you, thats clearly your solution to fun pvp is to zerg full 24 not mine. I wasn't in Havoc for that GvG but No Mercy was the best in the game at the time and Havoc was all on partly leveled EP baby toons, it would of been fun in our prime, and guess what? NM DINT RUN 24 LOL much respect to them they were great and I wish they still played. I have 3 GvG's recorded with most with your members that are in your guild now that couldnt get a death on us one is with Yonkit trying to cloak away in a GvG LOL.

hammayolettuce

Aegonnn wrote: »

I don't think I have even *one* time in the last 5 months been online with a raid and had to defend a keep from you. Not one time. If I wanted to never wipe I'd do what you guys do, and sit in defensible positions and wait for my enemy to come to me. Instead we go out and find fights, and find put ourselves in hard spots just to see if we can.

I have all the respect on the world for you Aegon, and what Haxus can do, but I'm sorry. The challenge is there. You know when we log on. If you want a challenge for your raid come take *** from me when we're running, because that literally never happens.

LOL, seriously? Yeah the 8man I'm in is going to come take Chal and Aleswel to get zerged down by your 24, NPKs 2 raids, and Tyberious 24 usually at the same time, then what 2 hours later you say sorry for zerging us down. That's usually how it goes. I can challenge you to run a 10man for once and watch you get smacked all over the map lmao.

It's laughable that you use this self-imposed handicap to start claiming moral victories. I said it once, I'll say it again: moral victories are make believe, Aegon. Both Nexus and Haxus have charged us and have been charged by us. But note that when VE is on, your entire faction goes on the defensive. It is what it is. (Nexus was much more threatening than Haxus imo.)

You seem to have no sudden pangs of guilt and remorse when you have a faction stacked in one place either, such as a last emp keep. You can flail around your epeen if you want brocepticon, but at least make sure you're doing it reasonably.

-B

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

hammayolettuce

Aegonnn wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Aegon, you're the one telling me there's no challenge for your full raid. If your response to bad odds is to run small and stay on friendly territory, that's not my problem and you don't get to call yourself the best.

As for 10v10, who knows. I remember the Havoc vs No Mercy GvG if y'all want some good memories though.

never said we were the best i said YOU guys arent, and it was NO challenge for a havoc full raid at all, the maps were red in an hour if that happened

Your zergling mind has twisted you, thats clearly your solution to fun pvp is to zerg full 24 not mine. I wasn't in Havoc for that GvG but No Mercy was the best in the game at the time and Havoc was all on partly leveled EP baby toons, it would of been fun in our prime, and guess what? NM DINT RUN 24 LOL much respect to them they were great and I wish they still played.

NM desired 16-20 and wouldn't scoff at 24 if our friends wanted to come play with us. We had a barracks guild to actively sift talent out from the DC general population. Also, Havoc also didn't win GvG's against NM's descendant guild, Mega Best Friends, nor its descendant guild, Nemesis while they were certainly at their prime. You were a good guild, probably the best EP had seen since the days of the Condemned. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here!

-B

Teargrants

Erondil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I asked this in zone once in a bit of a cheeky way. I'll ask it again with only slightly less cheek. At what critical juncture does exactly one more person turn a normal group into a zerg? I think the nature of that one special person bears research since once they join, a beautiful, pure, morally upright group becomes a filthy lag spewing zerg.

This is important.

-B

We already established the answer through exhaustive zergtistical anaylsis in Sypher's thread; the 9th person in group turns it into a zerg. As soon as he joins, the other 8 drop approximately 50 IQ and lose their individuality. This is known as Sypher's Law of Zergification.

In a double blind study, 88% of small man players reported they could feel the loss of motor skills when their group size passed Derra's Number.

8 people is when bomb group AoE builds become way more optimal than single target assist builds, and I think its what Derra means when he says anything over 8 is a zerg. Call it as you want, zerg, bomb group, raid, more than 8 people is definitely not what I define as a small group, and is the point individual skill starts to matter less than group coordination and leader's skill (group coordination requires individual skill for sure, but not the same kind than solo/smallscale group). Zerg is not always used in a negative sense as you seem to think.

I can make the exact same post and say "7" or "9" instead. My point is that it's not some specific number that is important, it is about the relative size of the 2 sides. If 8 ppl are fighting 16 ppl, their individual skill is a hella lot more important than if it's an 8v8. A lot of ppl insist on 8 as 'the number' because daoc max group size was 8, and I poke fun at that.

I know not everyone uses 'zerg' in a negative sense, but the vast majority do.

I am very picky about what I call a zerg because I do all the scouting in VE, I make all the call outs on incoming threats that crown needs to be aware of. I see something like 4 ppl, that's 'gankers', 8 ppl is 'smallman', 16 ppl is 'bomb group', 24 in a tight ball is 'raid', 24 pugging around is 'AP', multiple raids is '[x] raids', over one raid of ppl pugging around is 'zerg'. Understand, those numbers I use are just approximates.

CN_Daniel

I'm just happy you guys went red so i can laugh next time I see you screaming VE best guild NA next time in zone.

Aegonnn

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Aegonnn wrote: »

I don't think I have even *one* time in the last 5 months been online with a raid and had to defend a keep from you. Not one time. If I wanted to never wipe I'd do what you guys do, and sit in defensible positions and wait for my enemy to come to me. Instead we go out and find fights, and find put ourselves in hard spots just to see if we can.

I have all the respect on the world for you Aegon, and what Haxus can do, but I'm sorry. The challenge is there. You know when we log on. If you want a challenge for your raid come take *** from me when we're running, because that literally never happens.

LOL, seriously? Yeah the 8man I'm in is going to come take Chal and Aleswel to get zerged down by your 24, NPKs 2 raids, and Tyberious 24 usually at the same time, then what 2 hours later you say sorry for zerging us down. That's usually how it goes. I can challenge you to run a 10man for once and watch you get smacked all over the map lmao.

It's no one's fault but your own that you don't have enough friends to have more than eight in a group. It's laughable that you use this self-imposed handicap to start claiming moral victories. I said it once, I'll say it again: moral victories are make believe, Aegon. Both Nexus and Haxus have charged us and have been charged by us. But note that when VE is on, your entire faction goes on the defensive. It is what it is. (Nexus was much more threatening than Haxus imo.)

You seem to have no sudden pangs of guilt and remorse when you have a faction stacked in one place either, such as a last emp keep. You can flail around your epeen if you want brocepticon, but at least make sure you're doing it reasonably.

-B

Who the eff cares for moral victories? IDC who even wins a campaign LOL. Nexus ran full raids, maybe Haxus would if people liked lag and blobs.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Aegonnn wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Aegon, you're the one telling me there's no challenge for your full raid. If your response to bad odds is to run small and stay on friendly territory, that's not my problem and you don't get to call yourself the best.

As for 10v10, who knows. I remember the Havoc vs No Mercy GvG if y'all want some good memories though.

never said we were the best i said YOU guys arent, and it was NO challenge for a havoc full raid at all, the maps were red in an hour if that happened

Your zergling mind has twisted you, thats clearly your solution to fun pvp is to zerg full 24 not mine. I wasn't in Havoc for that GvG but No Mercy was the best in the game at the time and Havoc was all on partly leveled EP baby toons, it would of been fun in our prime, and guess what? NM DINT RUN 24 LOL much respect to them they were great and I wish they still played.

NM desired 16-20 and wouldn't scoff at 24 if our friends wanted to come play with us. We had a barracks guild to actively sift talent out from the DC general population. Also, Havoc also didn't win GvG's against NM's descendant guild, Mega Best Friends, nor its descendant guild, Nemesis while they were certainly at their prime. You were a good guild, probably the best EP had seen since the days of the Condemned. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here!

-B

MBF wasnt *** lol please post MBF or Nemesis beating us in a GVG, We didnt even suffer a death in our 6 GVG's I have. Relax there fangirl.

EDIT* I shouldnt say that because I really liked MBF, Nemesis, and Shortbus and wanted them around and to stay together.

Huckdabuck

NPK Daniel wrote: »

I'm just happy you guys went red so i can laugh next time I see you screaming VE best guild NA next time in zone.

We're also happy to have gone red just to show you how the map looks when it's up to YOU to take/hold anything. If it wasn't for the rest of DC (guilds and pugs alike) YOU'D be sitting at your gates 24-7 or rage quitting with a bit more frequency!

Satiar

NPK Daniel wrote: »

I'm just happy you guys went red so i can laugh next time I see you screaming VE best guild NA next time in zone.

Keep laughing from your gates, buddy

PainfulFAFA

TKO BEST GUILD EVER HANDS DOWN

Aegonnn

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

TKO BEST GUILD EVER HANDS DOWN

I just... I can't... whaaa... noooo... halp

allen-iverson

I think my fav part is about the 8:00 mark when CN was purged from the tower. Oh my gyoood couldn't even hold a tower farm with those numbers.. too funny.

Manoekin

I was in glademist for some time. Can confirm 3 blue raids inside all night until losing it.

Teargrants

This about sums up the thread.

hammayolettuce

Aegonnn wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Aegonnn wrote: »

I don't think I have even *one* time in the last 5 months been online with a raid and had to defend a keep from you. Not one time. If I wanted to never wipe I'd do what you guys do, and sit in defensible positions and wait for my enemy to come to me. Instead we go out and find fights, and find put ourselves in hard spots just to see if we can.

I have all the respect on the world for you Aegon, and what Haxus can do, but I'm sorry. The challenge is there. You know when we log on. If you want a challenge for your raid come take *** from me when we're running, because that literally never happens.

LOL, seriously? Yeah the 8man I'm in is going to come take Chal and Aleswel to get zerged down by your 24, NPKs 2 raids, and Tyberious 24 usually at the same time, then what 2 hours later you say sorry for zerging us down. That's usually how it goes. I can challenge you to run a 10man for once and watch you get smacked all over the map lmao.

It's no one's fault but your own that you don't have enough friends to have more than eight in a group. It's laughable that you use this self-imposed handicap to start claiming moral victories. I said it once, I'll say it again: moral victories are make believe, Aegon. Both Nexus and Haxus have charged us and have been charged by us. But note that when VE is on, your entire faction goes on the defensive. It is what it is. (Nexus was much more threatening than Haxus imo.)

You seem to have no sudden pangs of guilt and remorse when you have a faction stacked in one place either, such as a last emp keep. You can flail around your epeen if you want brocepticon, but at least make sure you're doing it reasonably.

-B

Who the eff cares for moral victories? IDC who even wins a campaign LOL. Nexus ran full raids, maybe Haxus would if people liked lag and blobs.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Aegonnn wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Aegon, you're the one telling me there's no challenge for your full raid. If your response to bad odds is to run small and stay on friendly territory, that's not my problem and you don't get to call yourself the best.

As for 10v10, who knows. I remember the Havoc vs No Mercy GvG if y'all want some good memories though.

never said we were the best i said YOU guys arent, and it was NO challenge for a havoc full raid at all, the maps were red in an hour if that happened

Your zergling mind has twisted you, thats clearly your solution to fun pvp is to zerg full 24 not mine. I wasn't in Havoc for that GvG but No Mercy was the best in the game at the time and Havoc was all on partly leveled EP baby toons, it would of been fun in our prime, and guess what? NM DINT RUN 24 LOL much respect to them they were great and I wish they still played.

NM desired 16-20 and wouldn't scoff at 24 if our friends wanted to come play with us. We had a barracks guild to actively sift talent out from the DC general population. Also, Havoc also didn't win GvG's against NM's descendant guild, Mega Best Friends, nor its descendant guild, Nemesis while they were certainly at their prime. You were a good guild, probably the best EP had seen since the days of the Condemned. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here!

-B

MBF wasnt *** lol please post MBF or Nemesis beating us in a GVG, We didnt even suffer a death in our 6 GVG's I have. Relax there fangirl.

I'm sorry, "fangirl?" I'm just a person who tried to keep everyone together that still played. And you're the one taking about the glory days of NM saying they were the best guild NA. NM died before 1.6 hit. 12 people in 1.5 is not the same as 12 people in 1.7. Don't blame people for running in tight groups when that's what the game mechanics support. Blame the decision-makers at ZOS for static ulti gen, aoe caps and damage reduction.

Satiar

Manoekin wrote: »

I was in glademist for some time. Can confirm 3 blue raids inside all night until losing it.

Thanks again for letting us have the final push to ourselves, I know you guys skipped on a good fight by staying off Glade at the end, and it was much appreciated

Erondil

Teargrants wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I asked this in zone once in a bit of a cheeky way. I'll ask it again with only slightly less cheek. At what critical juncture does exactly one more person turn a normal group into a zerg? I think the nature of that one special person bears research since once they join, a beautiful, pure, morally upright group becomes a filthy lag spewing zerg.

This is important.

-B

We already established the answer through exhaustive zergtistical anaylsis in Sypher's thread; the 9th person in group turns it into a zerg. As soon as he joins, the other 8 drop approximately 50 IQ and lose their individuality. This is known as Sypher's Law of Zergification.

In a double blind study, 88% of small man players reported they could feel the loss of motor skills when their group size passed Derra's Number.

8 people is when bomb group AoE builds become way more optimal than single target assist builds, and I think its what Derra means when he says anything over 8 is a zerg. Call it as you want, zerg, bomb group, raid, more than 8 people is definitely not what I define as a small group, and is the point individual skill starts to matter less than group coordination and leader's skill (group coordination requires individual skill for sure, but not the same kind than solo/smallscale group). Zerg is not always used in a negative sense as you seem to think.

I can make the exact same post and say "7" or "9" instead. My point is that it's not some specific number that is important, it is about the relative size of the 2 sides. If 8 ppl are fighting 16 ppl, their individual skill is a hella lot more important than if it's an 8v8. A lot of ppl insist on 8 as 'the number' because daoc max group size was 8, and I poke fun at that.

I know not everyone uses 'zerg' in a negative sense, but the vast majority do.

I am very picky about what I call a zerg because I do all the scouting in VE, I make all the call outs on incoming threats that crown needs to be aware of. I see something like 4 ppl, that's 'gankers', 8 ppl is 'smallman', 16 ppl is 'bomb group', 24 in a tight ball is 'raid', 24 pugging around is 'AP', multiple raids is '[x] raids', over one raid of ppl pugging around is 'zerg'. Understand, those numbers I use are just approximates.

No Derra (and I agree with him) doesn't use "zerg" for relatives number but for playstyle. Sure AoE group build starts to be more optimal than solo target assit in a group bigger than 7 or 9 or whatever, but it's around 7-10, not more. I'm not saying playing in a group of more than 8 doesn't require individual skill to take higher numbers, not at all (I play and enjoy everything from solo to 12-15 man raid) it just doesn't require the same playstyle nor the same kind of skill than playing solo/smallscale.

mchermie

jtaggs17b14_ESO wrote: »

VE proved its the best pvp zerg guild in game without a shadow of a doubt

Poxheart

NPK Daniel wrote: »

I'm just happy you guys went red so i can laugh next time I see you screaming VE best guild NA next time in zone.

You are delusional.

Asteria2

Zavus wrote: »

steves perfect hair.

-Methuselah

Barf

hammayolettuce

mchermie wrote: »

jtaggs17b14_ESO wrote: »

VE proved its the best pvp zerg guild in game without a shadow of a doubt

You're not helping

Huckdabuck

jtaggs17b14_ESO wrote: »

VE proved its the best pvp guild in game without a shadow of a doubt

This one comment by a Soul Shriven poster has cause the interwebz to implode upon itself and the e-peens to start enraging while bringing back some of the long lost posters who have moved on to the next best thing. Best post NA without a doubt! Bravo good sir....bravo!

Zheg

ESO does not have arenas (yet? ) that allow for pvp in a controlled environment with fixed numbers. The only pvp available to us is an open instance with keeps, outposts, and scrolls as map objectives. Whether you run 8 (can we pick a better number like 7? wtf is up with the obsession over 8 over the past few months?), 12, 24, etc. at the end of the night all that matters is what you were able to accomplish with those numbers.

There is such a bizarre focus on trying to maintain an image that you run less than what the going rate for the word zerg is at the moment, but whether you are 24 or 7 (there, I did it), 7 embedded in 30 other players doesn't really mean you're 'small manning' it does it - at least not in the sense that people try to use that phrase (a small group fighting against a large group, alone and outnumbered)? No group has control over what other players do and where they want to stack, so I find it silly to insist that a group of 7 (it's catching now eh?) buried in 35 friendly players is some how more skilled and less of a 'zerg' than 24 players in a single group. I have respect for quite a lot of guilds on red, yellow, and blue, but for the life of me I'll never understand the eternal epeen of the pvper that must try and save face in every engagement to the point that it becomes all they ever worry about. To deny that haxus, or ve, or rage, or any other number of skilled guilds aren't 'good' is absurd because 'good' is all relative. The haxus bomb is a thing to be feared. The meteor bomb on stairs utilizing a mechanic for instant oneshots that cannot be countered because it's awful coding is a thing to be laughed at. Just because I disagree with what you do on stairs doesn't mean I can't appreciate the skillful play off the stairs. Just because you may disagree with aspects of how VE runs, it shouldn't mean you can't appreciate VE's skillful play. At that point it's just petty, and looks like an inferiority complex. I have no problems owning up to a potato moment and laughing at myself to friends that just killed me; if you're incapable of that, I feel both sad for you, and sad for the people you share a TS with.

The odds against VE on Friday were easily 3 to 1, with the added disadvantage of being on the offensive rather than defending. A group of 7 successfully beating a force of 24 is a thing to be praised and congratulated, but a group of 24 beating ~ 72 is what? A challenge to your epeen?

When your group of 7 or 12 is on top of 30 pugs, it creates just as much lag (more in fact) than a single group of 24. Brian Wheeler said keeps were designed to be taken with a group of 12-18 over the course of 10 minutes. In what world do people feel vindicated thinking that running 7 should be the intended and only respectable group size in Cyrodiil? I know this argument has been done to death, but frankly, anyone that focuses so hard on running sub-full groups and using that as a crutch to bolster their ego in a game where there are 15 pugs on all sides of you is just being plain silly. It's mass pvp, not an arena. Players need to be responsible and aware of when the numbers on one side are greatly skewed in their favor during fights and make responsible decisions about whether or not they should be there, but the race to the bottom over who can run fewer and fewer people in a group while still having 30 friendlies surround them has reached record levels of absurdity.

To the topic at hand, I was on the third floor of Glade on my blue serenading both DC and EP with my /lute skills. The blue numbers were real, the victory was well earned. I'd like to reinforce that the video in the OP showed legitimate wipes on VE. It's not a highlight reel like the majority of guilds put out there. It shows that VE doesn't give up, and is a force to be reckoned with, whether on blue or red. Very few guilds throughout the life of the game would have been able to pull off the final victory at glademist, and anyone that refutes that isn't really being honest. Daniel played much better than I thought he was capable of doing on Friday, so I will certainly give credit where credit is due. But to deny the obvious tenacity and skill it takes to attack and claim a keep against numbers like that is to demonstrate a clear inferiority complex, whether blue or red.

Anyway, get your /popcorn worthy posts in before the thread is deleted!

emma666

While I refuse to sign up for an account on the forums for a game I nor my guild (Havoc) no longer plays, I feel compelled to make a statement. Im not sure why it was necessary for Havoc to be dragged into this, but I would appreciate that we be left out of it or atleast shown the respect from those that know better.

In an effort to set the record straight I do remember leading a group twice in am official duel against No Mercy, however I dont believe we had even formed Havoc yet, and recall it still being while many of us were a part of DiE. That being said, we lost both fights and I am not sure we had many kills if any. All the credit to No Mercy. As many of you know, I have experienced alot of the actual history in this game, particularly when it was actually far more competitive and populated than it is now. No Mercy was certainly the best guild of their time. As bulb pointed out, there's no way of clearly ranking guilds in a manner to prove these statements. This being the reality, the "best" guild at any given time is usually known best by those that play this game the most, the hardcore players and guilds. Guilds are evaluated on their consistency, contribution to the campaign, ability to fight alone, and MOST importantly what they do with the numbers that they present. In other words, its most important what your numbers in comparison to others, are able to do. Im not going to sit here and talk up my Guilds history, abilities, or GvG records because it speaks for itself. Everyone already has their opinions and I am sure that many would agree that while Havoc played ESO, we were atleast one of the best Guilds in the game, if not the best.

As for No Mercy vs Havoc, as i stated above, I honestly dont believe we were even Havoc in the GvG steve mentions, and I certainly remember having the most challenging/fun fights against NM. I also know that they wont come on here and paint a false portrait, as they know the reality is that both guilds wiped eachother many times and would likely have considered it to have been a competitive occasion in all instances. Furthermore, im fully aware that No Mercys prime was not even around when Havoc was created. However many/most of their core players were still playing and being led by their best raid leader and GM, Hova. Hova hopefully remembers the reality was that NM did wipe to DiE and Havoc on numerous occasions, JUST as they wiped us. I also remember him frequently sending hate tells with accusations of zerging and having too many negates (lol). When No Mercy left the game (not all of their players did), I remember that despite mostly everyone having hated them, they(including myself) wanted NM to come back in full strength since they missed the good, competitive, and fun fights against them. That being said No Mercy was the best guild of their time, a time that was probably the most competitive that this game has seen because many of the Hardcore players had not quit, mass exodus had not occurred, and numbers (ZERGS) did not equate to winning.

As for Snu's comments about GvG's with Mega Best Friends (MBF). The only GvG's that Havoc officially participated in were with Legion of Magnus, Super Heroes in Training, and Mega Best Friends. All of which are recorded on video and available to produce if necessary. All three include Havoc winning with zero players killed on our side. Havoc had no control of whether or not MBF was in their "prime", but as far as im concerned they were in their "prime" as much then as they ever were.

I wrote this all in order to set the record straight, but perhaps it will allow everyone that reads it to look back on the history of ESO and better evaluate what guilds were the "best of their time". In doing so, I hope that you all see that its directly related to the time at which these guilds played, the quality of the competition they faced, and the overall performance/population of the game. Alot of this discussion reads like a debate about whether the 1990 NBA All Star team would beat the 2015 All Star team, with much bashing and throwing people/guilds under the bus to being done (a better analogy would include a game that has far less people playing than before). In the end I want to make it clear that Havoc recognizes the true ability of guilds like No Mercy or Alacrity, that excelled at the height of ESO PvP with much fewer players than they were facing, but we also had our time. As for now, we have not been a part of this community (except for a dozen players that remained after Tom Hanks and myself moved on to other games) for some time now, and thus dont have the ability to contribute to the discussion of who the best PvP guild is now. That also means that the Guilds of today do not have the ability to judge themselves properly against guilds like my own, No Mercy or Alacrity. Members of Havoc that do currently still play certainly have the ability to evaluate guilds based on their actual experiences, but do not represent Havocs opinion as a guild. I believe in giving respect when and where its due, and simply ask that we are shown the same respect.

- Anonymous

Xsorus

Teargrants wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I asked this in zone once in a bit of a cheeky way. I'll ask it again with only slightly less cheek. At what critical juncture does exactly one more person turn a normal group into a zerg? I think the nature of that one special person bears research since once they join, a beautiful, pure, morally upright group becomes a filthy lag spewing zerg.

This is important.

-B

We already established the answer through exhaustive zergtistical anaylsis in Sypher's thread; the 9th person in group turns it into a zerg. As soon as he joins, the other 8 drop approximately 50 IQ and lose their individuality. This is known as Sypher's Law of Zergification.

In a double blind study, 88% of small man players reported they could feel the loss of motor skills when their group size passed Derra's Number.

8 people is when bomb group AoE builds become way more optimal than single target assist builds, and I think its what Derra means when he says anything over 8 is a zerg. Call it as you want, zerg, bomb group, raid, more than 8 people is definitely not what I define as a small group, and is the point individual skill starts to matter less than group coordination and leader's skill (group coordination requires individual skill for sure, but not the same kind than solo/smallscale group). Zerg is not always used in a negative sense as you seem to think.

I can make the exact same post and say "7" or "9" instead. My point is that it's not some specific number that is important, it is about the relative size of the 2 sides. If 8 ppl are fighting 16 ppl, their individual skill is a hella lot more important than if it's an 8v8. A lot of ppl insist on 8 as 'the number' because daoc max group size was 8, and I poke fun at that.

I know not everyone uses 'zerg' in a negative sense, but the vast majority do.

I am very picky about what I call a zerg because I do all the scouting in VE, I make all the call outs on incoming threats that crown needs to be aware of. I see something like 4 ppl, that's 'gankers', 8 ppl is 'smallman', 16 ppl is 'bomb group', 24 in a tight ball is 'raid', 24 pugging around is 'AP', multiple raids is '[x] raids', over one raid of ppl pugging around is 'zerg'. Understand, those numbers I use are just approximates.

4 is Small Man, 8 is a group, 12 is a raid, 16 is zerg, 24 is a zerg.

8 is a good group number because its enough to wipe zergs if properly played, Anything past that and you're just zerging for the sake of zerging..plus if you plan on releasing any type of PVP video, anything past 8 is really an unwatchable mess...

Like for example, the video posted in this thread...Its completely unwatchable....

In fact.... There is zero difference between what was in that video and this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JrTxy6HxpA

MountainHound

Incoming ROFL copter