anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Good old "experts vs. common sense" debate.
And yes Pino, while I understand some of your points, you're stretching it far too far over the top here.
And there are countless examples of experts' failures all over the place, which more use of common sense could have prevented.
There are countless new products launched after "experts' studies" had predicted success that fail on a large scale. And countless new products designed and launched without any studies or experts, just with common sense and creative vision, and that are extremely successful.
Expertise is widely overrated. Numbers are subject to interpretation, studies have bias.
What we have here is console players who have no text chat and want to trade, find groups, communicate in zone and in town. Their common sense tells them that it would be easy with a keyboard.
You're telling them "no, you think that's what you need but it isn't, I -the expert - know better than you what you need".
I for one I *always* very cautious whenever somebody pretends to know better than others what's good for them.
You can try to cure yourself, defend yourself in court or cut your own hair.
But in general it's better to contact an expert.
My guilds are console day one launch trade guilds, so I've already seen trends. Also played on ESO PC. You just started in September? Trust me, I inow who visits our forums. The bottom of the forum gives stats on visitors vs members and the forum itself provides historical data. I also have a pricing guide that I keep open to the public, no forum mennbership required, which lures in lots of hits.
I've run guilds in many other MMOs, bottomlne, text chat helps keep a guild active, and growing, voice chat does not.
I don't use VoiceChat. But I communicate a lot: via in-game mail, gmail, forum, website...
It’s all a lot of work, but fun as well.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Good old "experts vs. common sense" debate.
And yes Pino, while I understand some of your points, you're stretching it far too far over the top here.
And there are countless examples of experts' failures all over the place, which more use of common sense could have prevented.
There are countless new products launched after "experts' studies" had predicted success that fail on a large scale. And countless new products designed and launched without any studies or experts, just with common sense and creative vision, and that are extremely successful.
Expertise is widely overrated. Numbers are subject to interpretation, studies have bias.
What we have here is console players who have no text chat and want to trade, find groups, communicate in zone and in town. Their common sense tells them that it would be easy with a keyboard.
You're telling them "no, you think that's what you need but it isn't, I -the expert - know better than you what you need".
I for one I *always* very cautious whenever somebody pretends to know better than others what's good for them.
You can try to cure yourself, defend yourself in court or cut your own hair.
But in general it's better to contact an expert.
Sure experts do fail, doesn't mean they all fail.
We don't know what's good for you, but your behaviour or your interaction with the UI and the artefacts will do.
Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf
You do know that Xbox One will support a keyboard and mouse for gaming in an upcoming update, right?
I actually test this stuff before you guys get access...I'm fully aware that between the win10 to Xbox one in the New Xbox One Experience there will be new options where it makes sense when a developer chooses to utilize the newer developing tools. Specific to mouse and keyboard...on Xbox one....don't hold your breath
Edit: to be clear it may not be how you think it will be
Good to know that you have already decided how a feature will be utilized by developers of which you have no knowledge.
Wow...your responding very offensively to something you have no information on...
It's Xbox so what I know is always subject to change as I'm not a developer for them but ppl are jumping to this idea that they're going to just plug a mouse into the console and game is very far off. While possible if a developer chooses it's far off based on what's going on
We're not talking about using a mouse, just a keyboard. I'd rather not use the mouse/keyboard combination like on a PC.. Just a keyboard to needed to communicate, not move around in game.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf
You do know that Xbox One will support a keyboard and mouse for gaming in an upcoming update, right?
I actually test this stuff before you guys get access...I'm fully aware that between the win10 to Xbox one in the New Xbox One Experience there will be new options where it makes sense when a developer chooses to utilize the newer developing tools. Specific to mouse and keyboard...on Xbox one....don't hold your breath
Edit: to be clear it may not be how you think it will be
Good to know that you have already decided how a feature will be utilized by developers of which you have no knowledge.
Wow...your responding very offensively to something you have no information on...
It's Xbox so what I know is always subject to change as I'm not a developer for them but ppl are jumping to this idea that they're going to just plug a mouse into the console and game is very far off. While possible if a developer chooses it's far off based on what's going on
We're not talking about using a mouse, just a keyboard. I'd rather not use the mouse/keyboard combination like on a PC.. Just a keyboard to needed to communicate, not move around in game.
You may not be talking about a mouse but me and the forum user were as it pertains to this topic. If you are able to play on PTS the discussion makes a lot of sense and offers a good perspectives to why our discussion diverted from keyboard to mouse and keyboard.
Regarding the topic tho...I see a lot of this for those participating and who want the feature as a nice to have for them.
The irritating part tho is the keyboard only would offer communication options and no gameplay unlike on PC the console UI offers while in it both mouse+keyboard+game-pad functionality all at once
"I don't use VoiceChat. But I communicate a lot: via in-game mail, gmail, forum, website...
It’s all a lot of work, but fun as well."
The above statement by pino baffles me, how can a person be soo against in game text chat (zone/area/guild), when said person uses a mailing system as their main form of in game communication.
Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf
You do know that Xbox One will support a keyboard and mouse for gaming in an upcoming update, right?
I actually test this stuff before you guys get access...I'm fully aware that between the win10 to Xbox one in the New Xbox One Experience there will be new options where it makes sense when a developer chooses to utilize the newer developing tools. Specific to mouse and keyboard...on Xbox one....don't hold your breath
Edit: to be clear it may not be how you think it will be
Good to know that you have already decided how a feature will be utilized by developers of which you have no knowledge.
Wow...your responding very offensively to something you have no information on...
It's Xbox so what I know is always subject to change as I'm not a developer for them but ppl are jumping to this idea that they're going to just plug a mouse into the console and game is very far off. While possible if a developer chooses it's far off based on what's going on
We're not talking about using a mouse, just a keyboard. I'd rather not use the mouse/keyboard combination like on a PC.. Just a keyboard to needed to communicate, not move around in game.
You may not be talking about a mouse but me and the forum user were as it pertains to this topic. If you are able to play on PTS the discussion makes a lot of sense and offers a good perspectives to why our discussion diverted from keyboard to mouse and keyboard.
Regarding the topic tho...I see a lot of this for those participating and who want the feature as a nice to have for them.
The irritating part tho is the keyboard only would offer communication options and no gameplay unlike on PC the console UI offers while in it both mouse+keyboard+game-pad functionality all at once
That's all most of us would want with the keyboard, just communication. One of the reasons why I originally transferred from PC is because I was never a fan of using the keyboard/mouse to control your character. Now that PC is getting controller support I may just end up biting the bullet and switching back to PC even if it means having to re-roll
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf
You do know that Xbox One will support a keyboard and mouse for gaming in an upcoming update, right?
I actually test this stuff before you guys get access...I'm fully aware that between the win10 to Xbox one in the New Xbox One Experience there will be new options where it makes sense when a developer chooses to utilize the newer developing tools. Specific to mouse and keyboard...on Xbox one....don't hold your breath
Edit: to be clear it may not be how you think it will be
Good to know that you have already decided how a feature will be utilized by developers of which you have no knowledge.
Wow...your responding very offensively to something you have no information on...
It's Xbox so what I know is always subject to change as I'm not a developer for them but ppl are jumping to this idea that they're going to just plug a mouse into the console and game is very far off. While possible if a developer chooses it's far off based on what's going on
We're not talking about using a mouse, just a keyboard. I'd rather not use the mouse/keyboard combination like on a PC.. Just a keyboard to needed to communicate, not move around in game.
You may not be talking about a mouse but me and the forum user were as it pertains to this topic. If you are able to play on PTS the discussion makes a lot of sense and offers a good perspectives to why our discussion diverted from keyboard to mouse and keyboard.
Regarding the topic tho...I see a lot of this for those participating and who want the feature as a nice to have for them.
The irritating part tho is the keyboard only would offer communication options and no gameplay unlike on PC the console UI offers while in it both mouse+keyboard+game-pad functionality all at once
That's all most of us would want with the keyboard, just communication. One of the reasons why I originally transferred from PC is because I was never a fan of using the keyboard/mouse to control your character. Now that PC is getting controller support I may just end up biting the bullet and switching back to PC even if it means having to re-roll
I'd jump in PTS right now and check it out if you're considering it.
Other than the XBox Live part it's better because this update allows add-ons for the console UI so hopefully you'll see even more play
I played for a year on PC with a gamepad, and during that time I ate the lunches of plenty of keyboard/mouse players who thought that their ancient input devices made them the master race. I just wish there had been an special teabag emote for "You just got pwned by a controller player."
Maybe you, as a Vet, were fighting newbies?
During the testing, extremely talented console gamers were pitted against "mediocre" PC gamers in what appears to be some type of shooter. The Xbox gamers used their 360 controllers and the PC gamers used the traditional mouse/keyboard combo. The results?
"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative."
http://www.gamesradar.com/pc-gamers-destroyed-console-gamers-in-tests-says-voodoo-pc-founder/
I played for a year on PC with a gamepad, and during that time I ate the lunches of plenty of keyboard/mouse players who thought that their ancient input devices made them the master race. I just wish there had been an special teabag emote for "You just got pwned by a controller player."
Maybe you, as a Vet, were fighting newbies?
During the testing, extremely talented console gamers were pitted against "mediocre" PC gamers in what appears to be some type of shooter. The Xbox gamers used their 360 controllers and the PC gamers used the traditional mouse/keyboard combo. The results?
"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative."
http://www.gamesradar.com/pc-gamers-destroyed-console-gamers-in-tests-says-voodoo-pc-founder/
Hiero_Glyph wrote: »I played for a year on PC with a gamepad, and during that time I ate the lunches of plenty of keyboard/mouse players who thought that their ancient input devices made them the master race. I just wish there had been an special teabag emote for "You just got pwned by a controller player."
Maybe you, as a Vet, were fighting newbies?
During the testing, extremely talented console gamers were pitted against "mediocre" PC gamers in what appears to be some type of shooter. The Xbox gamers used their 360 controllers and the PC gamers used the traditional mouse/keyboard combo. The results?
"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative."
http://www.gamesradar.com/pc-gamers-destroyed-console-gamers-in-tests-says-voodoo-pc-founder/
As was noted previously, this study was specific to a shooter, not an MMORPG. In ESO you do not need to aim at a player's head to kill them, only aim in their general direction. Likewise all attacks are managed by timed sequences of button inputs which a keyboard and controller can both accurately manage. As I also noted previously, one of the most respected PvPers on PC uses a 360 controller with Xpadder. If what you claim was true, he should be losing to mediocre PC players regularly. Thanks for providing a study, but make sure it applies to the scenario in question.
On a side note, Shadowrun used cross-play betweeen the 360 and PC and had measures in place to keep both sides equal. This measure was a slight settling effect when using a mouse where shots could deviate unless you reduced the movement speed of the reticle for a brief period of time. Needless to say, this small change kept all players level for the life of the game.
Now that I think about it, IIRC, I think one of the hosts of Elder Scrolls Off the Record (Mike, aka "KDRMickey") has said that he uses a controller for the PC too. And I think he does at least some PvP.Hiero_Glyph wrote: »As I also noted previously, one of the most respected PvPers on PC uses a 360 controller with Xpadder. If what you claim was true, he should be losing to mediocre PC players regularly. Thanks for providing a study, but make sure it applies to the scenario in question.
Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».Asherons_Call wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf
You do know that Xbox One will support a keyboard and mouse for gaming in an upcoming update, right?
I actually test this stuff before you guys get access...I'm fully aware that between the win10 to Xbox one in the New Xbox One Experience there will be new options where it makes sense when a developer chooses to utilize the newer developing tools. Specific to mouse and keyboard...on Xbox one....don't hold your breath
Edit: to be clear it may not be how you think it will be
Good to know that you have already decided how a feature will be utilized by developers of which you have no knowledge.
Wow...your responding very offensively to something you have no information on...
It's Xbox so what I know is always subject to change as I'm not a developer for them but ppl are jumping to this idea that they're going to just plug a mouse into the console and game is very far off. While possible if a developer chooses it's far off based on what's going on
We're not talking about using a mouse, just a keyboard. I'd rather not use the mouse/keyboard combination like on a PC.. Just a keyboard to needed to communicate, not move around in game.
You may not be talking about a mouse but me and the forum user were as it pertains to this topic. If you are able to play on PTS the discussion makes a lot of sense and offers a good perspectives to why our discussion diverted from keyboard to mouse and keyboard.
Regarding the topic tho...I see a lot of this for those participating and who want the feature as a nice to have for them.
The irritating part tho is the keyboard only would offer communication options and no gameplay unlike on PC the console UI offers while in it both mouse+keyboard+game-pad functionality all at once
That's all most of us would want with the keyboard, just communication. One of the reasons why I originally transferred from PC is because I was never a fan of using the keyboard/mouse to control your character. Now that PC is getting controller support I may just end up biting the bullet and switching back to PC even if it means having to re-roll
I'd jump in PTS right now and check it out if you're considering it.
Other than the XBox Live part it's better because this update allows add-ons for the console UI so hopefully you'll see even more play
How does controller support work for PC? Can I just plug in my existing ps4 controller or do I need to buy a special PC controller?
I do have access to pts so I'll have to check it out
Asherons_Call wrote: »
How does controller support work for PC? Can I just plug in my existing ps4 controller or do I need to buy a special PC controller?
I do have access to pts so I'll have to check it out
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
That's where we disagree
I do all of this myself. Well, apart from the court which I prefer to avoid altogether.
And it's much cheaper and very efficient, if not more efficient. (If you knew only 1% of what's going on in the pharmaceutical industry...)
Seriously Pino, stop. Your position is far to rigid and condescending.
People want a solution to their grouping and communication issues. Provide them with one or shut up. Please.
Pino.../facepalm....why are you against OPTIONAL text chat on console if you don't even use voice chat and you TYPE in all those other text-based systems?
Cmon man.
You'd be wrong on my count....consoles since the PS2. Console & keyboard user since I started DCUO years ago.
Pino.../facepalm....why are you against OPTIONAL text chat on console if you don't even use voice chat and you TYPE in all those other text-based systems?
Cmon man.
Because the context is completely different.
I don't do this:
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a bit
- Creating mail
What I do is this:
- Creating mails
- Explore, fight, farm or craft a lot
I separate my tasks.
By the nature of an instant messaging system, most people will play the game like in the first example. It isn't that hard to predict the people will get frustrated and annoyed when they have to switch their devices such a lot.
I'm not against typing, I'm not against TextChat at all, but I would be not a fan of using TextChat on the consoles.
I'm also wondering who these Pro TextChat people are. I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk were (former) PC players.
Asherons_Call wrote: »
How many of these strange analogies are you going to throw out? Do you have a notebook full of them or something? We don't need to be experts! This is not rocket science. This argument that you keep using makes no sense
You'd be wrong on my count....consoles since the PS2. Console & keyboard user since I started DCUO years ago.
And when playing DCUO, I tended to do this:
Chat with league mates.
Run instances.
Do some open world stuff....while keeping an eye on the chat box for something interesting.
Maybe join a group from the LFG chat.
Help some random who shouted for help via the shout channel.
And then chat with leaguemates...all through chat. Oddly, not a single one of the folk I talked with complained about device switching.
If people didn't want to chat, they didn't. If they were mid instance / fight...they wouldn't respond.
So you really think it's better that people cure themselves and don't go to the doctor? I truly hope you never need a bypass, but if you do, I hope you put on YouTube how you carry it out on yourself. Would be an interesting watch.
Does it work? It certainly does. Apple is working like that.
Another example needed? Google.
(snip)
And we all know who won the search engine war. The engine itself of Google wasn't much better as the engine of the other search engines companies at the start. What made the difference was the interface.