The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

SC0TY999

RIP DK

All I use my DK for now is crafting, that's how useless they've become!

drzycki_ESO

"A stam DK will be simply more effective tank than any other combos, in the same way how a templar is simply better healer than any other combo."

Then why are most DK abilities based on magicka?

Winterpsy

[/quote]

It doesn't have to be strong proof for us to look into it does it? I'm just saying the rate at which his ulti is going up is faster than on PC.[/quote]

Certainly not, but for the sake of objectivity....
its more like gives a feeling it goes up faster. But that does not make it any more faster.

Winterpsy

drzycki_ESO wrote: »

"A stam DK will be simply more effective tank than any other combos, in the same way how a templar is simply better healer than any other combo."

Then why are most DK abilities based on magicka?

Those are mostly snares and buffs which you are not spamming, as they last longer. Just enough time to get your magicka regenned. Drop a Hardened armor on you for that 5k ish armor. It costs a lot, and you wont have a lot of magicka but you can do it and get the full benefits.
Even if you put zero points to magicka you can cast an armor buff, a cc, and dragon blood for the heal before running out.

The ones causing damage have stam morphs too.

SC0TY999

Winterpsy wrote: »

It doesn't have to be strong proof for us to look into it does it? I'm just saying the rate at which his ulti is going up is faster than on PC.[/quote]

Certainly not, but for the sake of objectivity....
its more like gives a feeling it goes up faster. But that does not make it any more faster.[/quote]

Consoles do get double the Ulti regen compared to PC, this was confirmed by a friend a few months back shortly after console release.

OrphanHelgen

Winterpsy wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

its a cooldown of 7 seconds on hard cc.. what you wanna do meanwhile? block?

Is that really a question? DKs have means such as every other class too. Access to damage creating weapons and tools.
Dual wield, two-hander, destro staff, bow, whatever strikes your fancy.

I am saying while DKs dont have a ton of damage dealing abilties they have a ton of CCs, snares, not to mention defensive skills.

Comparing one class to another is like comparing apples to pears.

Nb for example have these in skills that DK dont have:
Speed buff, aoe unblockable hard CC, major defile, major sorcery, major brutality, stamina gap closer, empower buff.. etc etc.. all this really importent!

Dyride

I think Dragon's blood and chains are really the only skills that actually need addressing. Giving DKs some of their tankiness back without returning to the OP blocknight is a fine line though.

I could see Dragon's blood being exempt from the heal debuff in Battle spirit BUT slightly nerfed to 25% of missing health.

Then chains needs to be less buggy. I like that chains has the potential to either pull you to them or them to you forcing some risk analysis but it just needs to work and not bug out.

eliisra

Winterpsy wrote: »

Lack of mobility - That was always a weakness of DKs, true. But their tool of survivability was mostly their skill setup which could make them sturdy. Last I checked templars have no means of escape neither. But their surviability tool is superb self healing (which had to be nerfed even in PvP areas)
Do not forget however the very cheap dragon leap ulti, which can cause tremeandous problem for enemy characters.

It's not about escaping or surviving I believe, it's about keeping up with your opponent. Like how the hell is a magicka DK suppose to catch and pressure classes that has access to constant major expedition spam and teleports? This goes for both NB and sorc actually.

I'm curious, since I dont main DK. How do you guys do it? Pray for that old speed bug to kick in?

Once a root is purged and the cc is broken, it's like sport car v.s Segway.

Burn your entire stamina pool on Invasions, sprint and Rapid Manoeuvre in 2.1? Who needs cc break! Mist Form after them lol?

This lack of basic tools(mobility and gap closer) allows the opponent to create safe range with easy and restore resources + health and than engage again.

ZoS really needs to add a 4-8 sec magicka based speed buff to some random non-class skill.

Draxys

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

DK has no range? Lol?

Just gonna go ahead and point at that the lol is on you, DKs most definitely do not have viable ranged skills. Actually the only 2 ranged targeted skills DKs have are among the worst and least used in the game (for pvp at least).

That being said, I don't think DKs need viable range, or an escape, IF zos bring them back to a viable state.

manny254

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

its a cooldown of 7 seconds on hard cc.. what you wanna do meanwhile? block?

Is that really a question? DKs have means such as every other class too. Access to damage creating weapons and tools.
Dual wield, two-hander, destro staff, bow, whatever strikes your fancy.

I am saying while DKs dont have a ton of damage dealing abilties they have a ton of CCs, snares, not to mention defensive skills.

Comparing one class to another is like comparing apples to pears.

Nb for example have these in skills that DK dont have:
Speed buff, aoe unblockable hard CC, major defile, major sorcery, major brutality, stamina gap closer, empower buff.. etc etc.. all this really importent!

So every class that cannot do all those things is bad at stamina? Hate to break it to you but templar and Sorc also do not have all those things.

One of the biggest problems with this game is that people try to copy the other classes instead of using what makes their own class strong. No one can come up with anything until someone else posts a cookie cutter build, and someone like sypher makes a video with it.

Maulkin

Dyride wrote: »

Then chains needs to be less buggy. I like that chains has the potential to either pull you to them or them to you forcing some risk analysis but it just needs to work and not bug out.

Chains is useless since it gives free immunity to your target. The fact that you run the risk of getting pulled into a zerg adds insult to injury making it a pretty useless skill. There is nothing to like about it.

Let me know if you would pick chains for your bar over any other magicka gap closer like: Lotus Fan, Toppling Charge or Streak. No is the answer, you never would.

Bashev

manny254 wrote: »

Swiift wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk supportabilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

Well I would disagree especially in regards to a group build. How many class based skill are used in a stamina build to deal out aoe damage? Class based skills that use magic are one of the largest factors that decide if a players stamina build is a effective.

Do you even have a DK? The way you describe everything about DK's doesn't seem to come from experience but what you found on Google. Everything you described can be wiped away by purge or cloak.

I have 2 max level dk's (One stamina and one magicka), and have 2 others that I have played in non vet. I am no novice to the class. Stamina dks are very strong right now, but they need to be built correctly.

Yes strong in 1 vs 1 in duels with a specific build. You forget that there is even no option for a duel in this game.

drzycki_ESO

Winterpsy wrote: »

drzycki_ESO wrote: »

"A stam DK will be simply more effective tank than any other combos, in the same way how a templar is simply better healer than any other combo."

Then why are most DK abilities based on magicka?

Those are mostly snares and buffs which you are not spamming, as they last longer. Just enough time to get your magicka regenned. Drop a Hardened armor on you for that 5k ish armor. It costs a lot, and you wont have a lot of magicka but you can do it and get the full benefits.
Even if you put zero points to magicka you can cast an armor buff, a cc, and dragon blood for the heal before running out.

The ones causing damage have stam morphs too.

Thank you for your responses, Winterpsy. I understand what you are saying. If I had thought the only role a Dragon Knight would be good at was being a tank, I would never have leveled one. I took the whole "Play as you want" to heart and now I am stuck because there is no way in Hell I am leveling another character.

OrphanHelgen

manny254 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

its a cooldown of 7 seconds on hard cc.. what you wanna do meanwhile? block?

Is that really a question? DKs have means such as every other class too. Access to damage creating weapons and tools.
Dual wield, two-hander, destro staff, bow, whatever strikes your fancy.

I am saying while DKs dont have a ton of damage dealing abilties they have a ton of CCs, snares, not to mention defensive skills.

Comparing one class to another is like comparing apples to pears.

Nb for example have these in skills that DK dont have:
Speed buff, aoe unblockable hard CC, major defile, major sorcery, major brutality, stamina gap closer, empower buff.. etc etc.. all this really importent!

So every class that cannot do all those things is bad at stamina? Hate to break it to you but templar and Sorc also do not have all those things.

One of the biggest problems with this game is that people try to copy the other classes instead of using what makes their own class strong. No one can come up with anything until someone else posts a cookie cutter build, and someone like sypher makes a video with it.

I dont try to copy, but this game is based on buffs and debuffs, and DK are actually week on that. You have many valid argumets but try to stay with the post topic.

Armitas

I have been using chains since 1.7 because I cannot handle a single stamina ability, even with drinks. It is actually an amazing skill when it works. Chains and talons works really good with banner. It's dual nature of both pulling and pushing in one skill allows us to manipulate the battle field in both directions without using two slots. It lets you isolate opponents from a zerg and lock them down with talons and then pull them back in before they reach their zerg again. Because it's a projectile you can chain sorcs BOL's if you miss the sorc as a target. Depending on the timing you can even bring the sorc back two bolts. Additionally it allows you to ignore roots saving you a ton of stamina. If you are rooted you can either pull your target to you, or failing that you will move to your target roots and all. It will also interrupt casts if they are not immune.

In PvE the dual nature sucks for tanking but if you are using molten whip it can be used to pull yourself in range of a teleporting boss so that you don't lose dps from being built for melee magicka dps. However if your purpose is to tank and pull the mobs in for the DPS to blender then it's a real problem.

I think we need a PvE morph that only pulls and lets leave the extended chains as is for PvP and get it fixed because it's actually phenomenal when it works. It's just that all too often it fails and when it does it fails for all targets. It's acting like the Z axis check applies a fail to the skill that does not fall away fast enough. So if you try to pull a target and it fails all targets will fail until you stop using the skill for a while. The bug isn't just a bad z axis check, the bug is sticky so that once it happens it sticks to you and won't go away for a while.

Jules

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

Play to your classes strengths; stop trying to be something you aren't. There are a lot of stamina abilities outside your class skills that fill the role you want; 2h has an execute and gap closer, DW and bow both have ways to get Major Expedition, one of your strongest Ultimates is a gap closer and AOE cc. DK has no range? Lol? At least flame damage synergises with destro staff unlike NB which has to pick either full magicka melee or use a gimped fire staff because all their CP are in the Thaumaturge. You have no burst and rely on sustain? Welcome to the IC patch.

Stamina morph of whip would be neat though.

Sounds like a nb who doesn't understand the game.

1. I'm not a guy
2. You just said play to your class' strengths and then listed a bunch of weapon skills. So like... Please try using logic sometime.
3. If you want burst damage and sustain simply run a stam nightblade with drinks. I never run out of stamina and can stack to 4k-5k weapon damage, buffed

drzycki_ESO

Jules wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

Play to your classes strengths; stop trying to be something you aren't. There are a lot of stamina abilities outside your class skills that fill the role you want; 2h has an execute and gap closer, DW and bow both have ways to get Major Expedition, one of your strongest Ultimates is a gap closer and AOE cc. DK has no range? Lol? At least flame damage synergises with destro staff unlike NB which has to pick either full magicka melee or use a gimped fire staff because all their CP are in the Thaumaturge. You have no burst and rely on sustain? Welcome to the IC patch.

Stamina morph of whip would be neat though.

Sounds like a nb who doesn't understand the game.

1. I'm not a guy
2. You just said play to your class' strengths and then listed a bunch of weapon skills. So like... Please try using logic sometime.
3. If you want burst damage and sustain simply run a stam nightblade with drinks. I never run out of stamina and can stack to 4k-5k weapon damage, buffed

How is everybody getting such high weapon damage? I can't get anywhere near that in magicka or stamina. Please enlighten me.

OrphanHelgen

drzycki_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

Play to your classes strengths; stop trying to be something you aren't. There are a lot of stamina abilities outside your class skills that fill the role you want; 2h has an execute and gap closer, DW and bow both have ways to get Major Expedition, one of your strongest Ultimates is a gap closer and AOE cc. DK has no range? Lol? At least flame damage synergises with destro staff unlike NB which has to pick either full magicka melee or use a gimped fire staff because all their CP are in the Thaumaturge. You have no burst and rely on sustain? Welcome to the IC patch.

Stamina morph of whip would be neat though.

Sounds like a nb who doesn't understand the game.

1. I'm not a guy
2. You just said play to your class' strengths and then listed a bunch of weapon skills. So like... Please try using logic sometime.
3. If you want burst damage and sustain simply run a stam nightblade with drinks. I never run out of stamina and can stack to 4k-5k weapon damage, buffed

How is everybody getting such high weapon damage? I can't get anywhere near that in magicka or stamina. Please enlighten me.

Above 4k is normal.
Legendary vr16 weapon.
Major and minor brutality.
Weapon dmg enchants in glyphs.
Flawless dawnbreaker.
Other passives, like templars 6% weapon dmg.
GG

Daymond

Just wondering if I am the only dk that uses corrosive armor as their ultimate in pvp._. Maybe I am just a noob that knows nothin bout dks but I still think Stam dks are Boss. Btw I know nothing of magic classes have only played stamina even the sorc that I have is stamina...Maybe though the stamina dk I made just really fits my style of play.

Since alot of experienced dks are in here can i post my build I have been using to get some feedback on it or should I make a separate post?

Armitas

Daymond wrote: »

Just wondering if I am the only dk that uses corrosive armor as their ultimate in pvp._. Maybe I am just a noob that knows nothin bout dks but I still think Stam dks are Boss. Btw I know nothing of magic classes have only played stamina even the sorc that I have is stamina...Maybe though the stamina dk I made just really fits my style of play.

Since alot of experienced dks are in here can i post my build I have been using to get some feedback on it or should I make a separate post?

Well I can tell you as a magicka DK if Corrosive armor had spell pen and a bit more aggressive dot I'd be using the heck out of it. I need a higher dot as a magicka user due to having to lower my damage so much for survivability, so without that it's better for me to try and quickly nuke through a dragon leap combo. The penetration also overlaps 5L armor. However as a stam user you already have all that burst so you can pop corrosive and focus 100% on offense, ignoring all defense and even ignoring all enemy armor. I would still use a low cost ultimate nuke like dragon leap for 1v1 but if you were stuck fighting a 1v3 it could give you the time and focus you need to even the odds.

Maybe it needs physical penetration and something else like direct spell crit chance or +x% dot damage from magicka based dots. That way it works for magicka and stamina based builds.

Daymond

Yea it is a really a oh crap life savior button which really turns a sticky situation around fast.

What do you guys think of stamina morph of fiery grip?

DaveMoeDee

SC0TY999 wrote: »

RIP DK

All I use my DK for now is crafting, that's how useless they've become!

My DK is my equipment crafter with all my styles and motifs. He is also my main enchanter, one more writ away from 50. He also is 2nd provisioner, with most recipes (but only my main provisioner has psijic ambrosia). So I could get good use crafting if I swap to a different character for playing.

Is the DK so bad though that it is at a relative disadvantage for tanking group dungeons?

Mr_Nobody

I feel too strong on a templar atm so i've already started a magicka DK ~

Some time this year, some time...

Wollust

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

SC0TY999 wrote: »

RIP DK

All I use my DK for now is crafting, that's how useless they've become!

My DK is my equipment crafter with all my styles and motifs. He is also my main enchanter, one more writ away from 50. He also is 2nd provisioner, with most recipes (but only my main provisioner has psijic ambrosia). So I could get good use crafting if I swap to a different character for playing.

Is the DK so bad though that it is at a relative disadvantage for tanking group dungeons?

You can tank dungeons with any class, with NB and DK being the better ones at it. This thread is mostly about pvp hence why it is located inside the alliance war section.
In fact, DK is the best DPS class in PVE. ZOS did a great job making the DKs abilities synergize so well for this.

But now in PVP the DK is definetely the weakest class (magicka).

krim

Etaniel wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

I've seen multiple videos of console footage where the ultimate pool goes up way faster than on PC.

Look at this one for example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTNSLGGeYk

Yes, he is wearing bloodspawn, and yes he has combat frenzy proccing on kills. But you can clearly tell the difference between a bloodspawn proc and the regular ulti tick that everyone gets when using a light attack. And that tick, is going up way faster than on PC. Or maybe it's the cost of bats? who knows. The only thing that is for sure is that I can't get my ulti up as fast as he does on the video.

I have no clue why console would get different mechanics (except that I don't trust ZOS) but you have to admit this video seems fishy

The video is sped up and only normal speed for a moment at the 4 min mark.

Alomar

There's a reason I haven't touched my dk since the first day of Imperial City. A dozen or so nerfs in a row with no positive buffs/tweaks to speak of and the only two stamina morphs added were dots kinda speak for themselves. RIP DK's

Laggus

Completely agree with the OP.

xMovingTarget

Well said julesy. I started to pvp a bit after update 7. It really feels like a wet noodle. Compared to the old days. I am strong as magicka DK as long as I have a strong team behind my back. But that's all about it. DK in pvp is simply boring these days. I feel like I have to heal myself constantly, doing no damage and then die because no resources. Simply no fun.

Jules

drzycki_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

Play to your classes strengths; stop trying to be something you aren't. There are a lot of stamina abilities outside your class skills that fill the role you want; 2h has an execute and gap closer, DW and bow both have ways to get Major Expedition, one of your strongest Ultimates is a gap closer and AOE cc. DK has no range? Lol? At least flame damage synergises with destro staff unlike NB which has to pick either full magicka melee or use a gimped fire staff because all their CP are in the Thaumaturge. You have no burst and rely on sustain? Welcome to the IC patch.

Stamina morph of whip would be neat though.

Sounds like a nb who doesn't understand the game.

1. I'm not a guy
2. You just said play to your class' strengths and then listed a bunch of weapon skills. So like... Please try using logic sometime.
3. If you want burst damage and sustain simply run a stam nightblade with drinks. I never run out of stamina and can stack to 4k-5k weapon damage, buffed

How is everybody getting such high weapon damage? I can't get anywhere near that in magicka or stamina. Please enlighten me.

1 Molag kena
3 agility all weapon damage
Masters greatsword
4 morag tong
Warrior mundus
Major brutality
Flawless dawnbreaker on main damage bar

Armitas

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Well said julesy. I started to pvp a bit after update 7. It really feels like a wet noodle. Compared to the old days. I am strong as magicka DK as long as I have a strong team behind my back. But that's all about it. DK in pvp is simply boring these days. I feel like I have to heal myself constantly, doing no damage and then die because no resources. Simply no fun.

I know this is a PvP thread but I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on the DK in PvE as well.