The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

hammayolettuce

Winterpsy wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Yes I do play on console. The game's the same tho.
Why you think it matters?

Because console is not the same as PC.. For starters on console you generate ultimate faster which in return yields more battle roar usage which again in return yields better resource management.

I wonder what are those big differences that makes console DKs so significantly different from PC DKs.
2 secs here and there?
Last I checked the stats, mechanics etc are the same. Except we have no addons.

For starters reread what I wrote, then read it again if you still do not understand the chore of a DKs survival.

Lord_Hev

Winterpsy wrote: »

Yes I do play on console. The game's the same tho.
Why you think it matters?

Completely different realm for PvP.


The vast majority of console players are new to the game, and like you, average with only 100 CP. The average PC player has 250+ CP, with more then a few players having 400+ CP. The majority of console players are still learning the game/classes.

Daymond

Whats so bad about usin weapon skills with class skills i use the dk for the ult, cc,debuff and skills to make me survive. Then the weapon skill line for dmg perfect synergy for me. And I am not saying its not lackin some stam offensive skills in the class if they do add some it probly wont change much for me it would add some diversity on what some skills people use but overall dk is not bad at all. Like I said though adding some more stam dk skills would add some nice diversity.

Ishammael

Winterpsy wrote: »

Yes I do play on console. The game's the same tho.
Why you think it matters?

Not the same game.

Y'all are at minimum a month behind the PC meta. Minimum three months behind in champion points.

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

Winterpsy

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Yes I do play on console. The game's the same tho.
Why you think it matters?

Because console is not the same as PC.. For starters on console you generate ultimate faster which in return yields more battle roar usage which again in return yields better resource management.

I wonder what are those big differences that makes console DKs so significantly different from PC DKs.
2 secs here and there?
Last I checked the stats, mechanics etc are the same. Except we have no addons.

For starters reread what I wrote, then read it again if you still do not understand the chore of a DKs survival.

I understand good and well what you wrote.
Also, the things mentioned by the OP are there on console as well.

Give me an official chart comparing pc DKs and console DKs mechanics wise.
We get the same patches, as PC.

The only difference true, that we dont yet have that many CPs.
BUT!

We have many guys who are PC transfers, meaning we are encountering high CP players in all classes and factions.
Also this game does not have such a steep learning curve to require years of playing to get the feeling of a class, and learn it completely. Dont overrate the learning curve of ESO .




I am myself playing the game ever since console release ,which are a good couple of months. Maining a DK.
Had no probs neither in PvP world, nor in PvE dungeons. My personal opinion that DKs are not subpar to other classes at all.

Most of these things summarized by the OP are not completely valid, or not weaknesses but design choices:

Lack of mobility - That was always a weakness of DKs, true. But their tool of survivability was mostly their skill setup which could make them sturdy. Last I checked templars have no means of escape neither. But their surviability tool is superb self healing (which had to be nerfed even in PvP areas)
Do not forget however the very cheap dragon leap ulti, which can cause tremeandous problem for enemy characters.


No range - Once again its a design choice. DK is close combat class by design. They have many skills that support close combat. You can complain that Sorcerers have no close combat abilities, but why would they need one. There are those weapon abilties with which you can get range.

Lack of damage - Once again debateable and misleading. As if every class & build had a negate funcion on their bar. Purge is not efficient and affordable for most builds. Its a hefty sacrifice just to remove some DOTs. Most characters in PvP situation are just too busy trying to survive or mashing buttons in the heat of battle to pay attention to DOTs.
That aside, DK damage skills are mostly on Ardent flame, and that's all. Because the rest are sustain and defense. Once again design choice. Look at a NB. NB fan players can start a similar thread complaining about skills of sustain and defense.

Lack of stamina variety - The main damage skills of the DK have a stam variety: Unstable flame, Fiery breath. Chains are not designed for damage. And indeed lava whip has no stam morph. Luckily as a DK you have many other nice things other classes lack, so it's not like you cant put anything on those bars.
The rest are self-defense and sustain skills.

Summarized like the OP did, DK indeed seems weaker. But if we start listing their strength, we'd get a lot of DKs are OP threads.

Honestly, this thread in my eyes is naught but another nerf-this-nerf-that whining about class weakness, just very nicely wrapped up and worded, professional looking, and thus wont get the L2P reactions. But in the core to me it's pretty much the same.


And drop this, "You console-players cannot understand the difficult life of DKs", because that's BS.

The difference is minor between the two (if there are any, I personally have no clue where you get this ulti regeneration difference), so it wont support the console --><--- PC logic.

Asmael

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

Winterpsy

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

Exactly

Maulkin

Yuke wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Tbh I think magicka dk is in a better spot than it was in 1.6... although compared to other classes it's far behind.
The worst part atm is GDB, completely useless skill

Wow, the only one here who can see things objectively. After 3 pages.

With talons back to unblockable, dk will be in a good spot again imho. Missing class gapcloser isnt much of an issue anymore, because you cant waste your stamina on perma blocking anymore.

One thing that is bothering me, is that reflective scales is broken. Its the most important defensive skill for the dk out there besides choking talons and GDB.

I know I'm not very dedicated to my DK and thus my opinion is not based on vast experience, but I'll go ahead anyway :P

The issue with the gap closer on the DK is two-fold. First, it forces you on S&B. That didn't use to be a problem until now because you could use the S&B passives to block a lot more (or perma-block) so it was a natural choice, not a sacrifice. But that's no longer the case now.

So you have to sacrifice the range and light attack weaving of the destro staff or the extra spell damage of DW just to get a gap closer. Also that gap closer does very little damage as it scales from stamina / wpn damage, unlike the very decent damage of Lotus Fan for example. So you can get less casts and less dmg with your gap closer than Templar or NBs, the other two classes with melee skills.

The above issue is made worse by the fact that GDB is now a crap heal, so you have to slot a resto staff on the off bar for Heal Ward or Blessing Of Restoration. So magicka DKs are kinda pigeon-holed to playing S&B and Resto and unlike the Sorcs (pigeon-holed into destro/resto) these choices are kinda sub-par for the magicka DK atm.

Imo they should make:
1) GDB a decent heal again
2) Make scales work consistently for 4" against all attacks (stealthed or not). Ideally unnerf the 4 projectiles rule in the process, but ZOS are not the best at recognizing their mistakes, so I won't hold my breath.
3) Change one moprh of chains to be a consistent gap closer while the other is a consistent pull. If the pull fails, it shouldn't pull you to the target. One is a great PvE morph (pull mobs under banner) while the other is a great PvP morph.

I don't think making the above changes will over-buff a class with no escapes or decent wards. I think it will make them slightly tankier which they need to be and give them more choices over what weapons to slot. More diverse builds and such.

PS: I'm obviously talking about magicka DKs, since I think stam DKS are actually in a good place.

Rust_in_Peace

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

Play to your classes strengths; stop trying to be something you aren't. There are a lot of stamina abilities outside your class skills that fill the role you want; 2h has an execute and gap closer, DW and bow both have ways to get Major Expedition, one of your strongest Ultimates is a gap closer and AOE cc. DK has no range? Lol? At least flame damage synergises with destro staff unlike NB which has to pick either full magicka melee or use a gimped fire staff because all their CP are in the Thaumaturge. You have no burst and rely on sustain? Welcome to the IC patch.

Stamina morph of whip would be neat though.

Tomato

Seems like the sweet spot is 2k stamina recovery and 3k weapon damage. 2H and DW

Yuke

If you can reach 40k magicka on your dk, greatsword gives you a larger damage boost than dw (because of the two handed passive). This means you can get a gapcloser + the best dps weapon by using a greatword, which isnt that bad i guess. As a second weapon i would use resto staff for heals as well.

Maulkin

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

God forbid anyone, ever, get as strong as a NB

JaJaLuka

I agree with an earlier post, they need that tankiness back, they are just too weak for a primarily tank class to be all that viable an option.

I don't think they need a buff to any damage and I don't think they need anything done about people purging their dots, they have to have some counters against the class, because going back to the old way would be just as bad.

Saying that there are some pretty valid points aside from the purge issue. The lack of synergy as an example is a major problem. The only thing I would hope and ask is that time is taken so that it's considered properly, the last thing we need is another bug or misbalancing issue.

OdinForge

You long time DK players need to start a collective ***-storm. Pool your resources and cause hell, keep tagging the mods don't let them sleep, especially Gina (get her attention away from the inevitable destruction of NB).

Make videos that highlight where ZOS went wrong, keep opening these threads together. These forums are run by people who only want to nerf the game into the ground. Overtake them with riots for the salvation of DK, and the rest of PvP at the same time.

You guys can do the thing, you can save DK and PvP.

OrphanHelgen

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Sounds like a DK that wishes he was a nightblade.

Play to your classes strengths; stop trying to be something you aren't. There are a lot of stamina abilities outside your class skills that fill the role you want; 2h has an execute and gap closer, DW and bow both have ways to get Major Expedition, one of your strongest Ultimates is a gap closer and AOE cc. DK has no range? Lol? At least flame damage synergises with destro staff unlike NB which has to pick either full magicka melee or use a gimped fire staff because all their CP are in the Thaumaturge. You have no burst and rely on sustain? Welcome to the IC patch.

Stamina morph of whip would be neat though.

Wow such wow..

I dont want invinsibility or anything, but atleast give DK better melee skills. ATM other classes are even better melee then a DK. and have high mobility and debuffs / buffs as well..

Maulkin

OdinForge wrote: »

You long time DK players need to start a collective ***-storm. Pool your resources and cause hell, keep tagging the mods don't let them sleep, especially Gina (get her attention away from the inevitable destruction of NB).

I keep hearing about this destruction of NBs (like the destruction of Sorcs) before every update and somehow they end up stronger and stronger every time.

Get outta here with that QQ. Save it for when you actually get nerf

Winterpsy

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

OdinForge

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

You long time DK players need to start a collective ***-storm. Pool your resources and cause hell, keep tagging the mods don't let them sleep, especially Gina (get her attention away from the inevitable destruction of NB).

I keep hearing about this destruction of NBs (like the destruction of Sorcs) before every update and somehow they end up stronger and stronger every time.

Get outta here with that QQ. Save it for when you actually get nerf

Calm down grumpy cat, it was a joke.

Maulkin

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

I think @Jules' complain was mostly about magicka DKs. Stam DKs are actually in a very healthy place I believe.

Asmael

People still play DKs?

The last time I saw one, I sneezed a little bit and BAM! Dead.

I'm pretty sure he rerolled a sorc or a NB.

OrphanHelgen

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

its a cooldown of 7 seconds on hard cc.. what you wanna do meanwhile? block?

Etaniel

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

I've seen multiple videos of console footage where the ultimate pool goes up way faster than on PC.

Look at this one for example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTNSLGGeYk

Yes, he is wearing bloodspawn, and yes he has combat frenzy proccing on kills. But you can clearly tell the difference between a bloodspawn proc and the regular ulti tick that everyone gets when using a light attack. And that tick, is going up way faster than on PC. Or maybe it's the cost of bats? who knows. The only thing that is for sure is that I can't get my ulti up as fast as he does on the video.

I have no clue why console would get different mechanics (except that I don't trust ZOS) but you have to admit this video seems fishy

Maulkin

OdinForge wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

You long time DK players need to start a collective ***-storm. Pool your resources and cause hell, keep tagging the mods don't let them sleep, especially Gina (get her attention away from the inevitable destruction of NB).

I keep hearing about this destruction of NBs (like the destruction of Sorcs) before every update and somehow they end up stronger and stronger every time.

Get outta here with that QQ. Save it for when you actually get nerf

Calm down grumpy cat, it was a joke.

Kinda hard to tell the jokes apart from the QQ when there 's so much of the latter lately

Maulkin

Etaniel wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

I've seen multiple videos of console footage where the ultimate pool goes up way faster than on PC.

Look at this one for example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTNSLGGeYk

Yes, he is wearing bloodspawn, and yes he has combat frenzy proccing on kills. But you can clearly tell the difference between a bloodspawn proc and the regular ulti tick that everyone gets when using a light attack. And that tick, is going up way faster than on PC. Or maybe it's the cost of bats? who knows. The only thing that is for sure is that I can't get my ulti up as fast as he does on the video.

I have no clue why console would get different mechanics (except that I don't trust ZOS) but you have to admit this video seems fishy

Shades of 1.5 in that video :P

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

I've seen multiple videos of console footage where the ultimate pool goes up way faster than on PC.

Look at this one for example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTNSLGGeYk

Yes, he is wearing bloodspawn, and yes he has combat frenzy proccing on kills. But you can clearly tell the difference between a bloodspawn proc and the regular ulti tick that everyone gets when using a light attack. And that tick, is going up way faster than on PC. Or maybe it's the cost of bats? who knows. The only thing that is for sure is that I can't get my ulti up as fast as he does on the video.

I have no clue why console would get different mechanics (except that I don't trust ZOS) but you have to admit this video seems fishy

Shades of 1.5 in that video :P

Well he's going against level 10-20 guys but ultimate regen does loook kinda fast, I agree.

To the OP, I agree. Sums up our problems pretty well.

Winterpsy

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

its a cooldown of 7 seconds on hard cc.. what you wanna do meanwhile? block?

Is that really a question? DKs have means such as every other class too. Access to damage creating weapons and tools.
Dual wield, two-hander, destro staff, bow, whatever strikes your fancy.

I am saying while DKs dont have a ton of damage dealing abilties they have a ton of CCs, snares, not to mention defensive skills.

Comparing one class to another is like comparing apples to pears.

drzycki_ESO

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

I re-specked my magicka DK into a stamina DK for a couple of months and only had a couple of DK abilities on my bar. I want to be a DK, not a sword/dagger/bow user that just happens to be a DK. I have gone back to magicka and am replacing my DK abilities with mage's guild abilities and abilities from other skill lines.

I want to be a Dragon Knight that uses Dragon Knight abilities than can actually do something!

Winterpsy

Etaniel wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

I've seen multiple videos of console footage where the ultimate pool goes up way faster than on PC.



Yes, he is wearing bloodspawn, and yes he has combat frenzy proccing on kills. But you can clearly tell the difference between a bloodspawn proc and the regular ulti tick that everyone gets when using a light attack. And that tick, is going up way faster than on PC. Or maybe it's the cost of bats? who knows. The only thing that is for sure is that I can't get my ulti up as fast as he does on the video.

I have no clue why console would get different mechanics (except that I don't trust ZOS) but you have to admit this video seems fishy

Anything that starts with "It looks ...." is no strong proof. This swifter ulti regen remains a myth. Actually it's very slow to raise a DK flag on console too.

Winterpsy

drzycki_ESO wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

Melee skills come in forms of weapon abilities.
Dks have support-melee skills : petrify, cinder storm, talons, stone fist.

Knock 'em down, root 'em , snare 'em, roast them, before they get tenderdized by a f*cking big sword or a shield.

That aside, why the need to go pure class skills? Best combos I've tried always have different skilltrees mixed up together.

I re-specked my magicka DK into a stamina DK for a couple of months and only had a couple of DK abilities on my bar. I want to be a DK, not a sword/dagger/bow user that just happens to be a DK. I have gone back to magicka and am replacing my DK abilities with mage's guild abilities and abilities from other skill lines.

I want to be a Dragon Knight that uses Dragon Knight abilities than can actually do something!

Most builds are mixed of class and weapon and whatever abilities. Going pure is more rare.
Your ultis, that defines a lot of gameplay style still remain DK. Unless ofc you switch to meteor and werewolf, but then the discussion is moot.
The Magma armor immunity or dragon leap, or the standard are all very strong ultis, and they all support in-your-face kind of gameplay.

There were some concept behind each class when they were first designed. Its no coincidence, that despite the saying that you can build anything, there are certain role & class synergies that are better than others.

A stam DK will be simply more effective tank than any other combos, in the same way how a templar is simply better healer than any other combo.

If you start building out of the box creations (which, let me add, can be very effective) you eventually challenge yourself and reach a point where you feel that build's limits. While as long as you stay in the mold you can possible squeeze out more of the role.

It's like rolling an orc sorcerer and realizing they are not perfect for being a sorcerer due to their passives. They can be good ones? Yeah. Can they be the best? Hardly.

Same with DKs. You can form them to be many different things, but if you look at their abilities you can get an idea what they were designed to be: survival and control.


EDIT: I will start whining about the DKs downfall, if I see them fail in their role of crowd control and surviving.

Etaniel

Winterpsy wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Biggest difference for DKs: ultimate regenerates differently on console than PC.

...What?

Why the hell would they get different mechanics on console compared to PC?

Source / link / something?

I've seen multiple videos of console footage where the ultimate pool goes up way faster than on PC.



Yes, he is wearing bloodspawn, and yes he has combat frenzy proccing on kills. But you can clearly tell the difference between a bloodspawn proc and the regular ulti tick that everyone gets when using a light attack. And that tick, is going up way faster than on PC. Or maybe it's the cost of bats? who knows. The only thing that is for sure is that I can't get my ulti up as fast as he does on the video.

I have no clue why console would get different mechanics (except that I don't trust ZOS) but you have to admit this video seems fishy

Anything that starts with "It looks ...." is no strong proof. This swifter ulti regen remains a myth. Actually it's very slow to raise a DK flag on console too.

It doesn't have to be strong proof for us to look into it does it? I'm just saying the rate at which his ulti is going up is faster than on PC.