The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

Jules

Ghostbane wrote: »

HP OP

Jules

Swiift wrote: »

Great post! Most DK's are stuck with running heavy armor.

And dying horrible deaths due to lack of resources

Jules

Lord_Hev wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

@ZOS_GinaBruno



Such a well written and eloquent post. This thread cannot be ignored, and must be acknowledged by ZOS. WTF are you guys doing to the DK class?

Agreed, such a sad state of affairs.Thanks for tagging since I forgot.
& +brownie points for 'eloquent'

Tomato

I'm going to try running 5 Willow's path medium and see how that goes for sustain. I might need to change it to 5 heavy using willows path if I get squashed like a bug.

Jules

Azarath_tiberius wrote: »

Well said Jules. ZOS has a lot of work to do to make DK a decent class again. Which I doubt they 'll ever manage to do...

Most of the DK abilities either have been nerfed to the ground OR they were partially / never useful. Around 9 out of 18 DK skills + ultimates have been nerfed in a way. Just for comparison, no other class has had so many nerfs till now . In the contrary, every single other class has only gotten nice class buffs and better in general, except DKs.. What did DK get from 1.7?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Obsidian Shard: Increased the healing effect radius of this ability to 8 meters from 5 meters.

Yeeaaah... Thanks for nothing.

I was seriously thinking what else could one say about DK, but i think you pretty much have everything covered @Jules . Only thing that came to mind was that they should revert banners cost back to 200 ultimate, but thats just my opinion.

Also mandatory tag: @ZOS_RichLambert , @ZOS_GinaBruno + that game designer we have (can't remember his name), that doesn't know jack **** about the game.

Yeah this patch did nothing for us. I think I know like 1 DK who uses obsidian. But I guess of the percentage of friends I have that still play DK that's like...........50% of them. They should just delete that totally useless skill and make it something viable like a gapcloser/execute/ranged ability depending on which direction they intend to go in with DK.

Banner is indeed a strong a$$ ulti, but in PVP a 250 cost is just atrocious and too hard to build around.

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Stam morph for whip and / or chains. Some passive movement speed or something for some mobility (they have slow in ardent flame, really good). Reduce standard of might costor higher range then a roll dodge range. Idk, just something.. anything. The chain CC from night blades lately are making me sick !

Any/All of these would be massive improvements to the state things are in currently.

Poxheart

So much truth in the OP.

Xsorus

I said it before, anything my dk can do.. My nightblade does far better and has an escape.

When I play my dk and I'm primarily not using any dk skills, that's a problem

Teridaxus

Stam dk since beta here... +agree
Also lack of range affect us in pve a lot too.



Patch 3.0 Orsinium:
...
i wanted to write some funny comment what they will nerf there...but pretty much everything from us got nerfed already

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO

Thank you, Jules. THANK YOOOOUUUUUU.

manny254

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Evandus

Axyredo wrote: »

i agree Jules. zos really hates DKs

Yep...

Jules wrote: »

We get it, ZOS. You really want to punish DK's for the permastandard permabats permatalons murderslaughteraton. But I'm pretty sure with this patch, you took it a bit far. In case you hadn’t noticed, DK’s feel very sub-standard these days.

In general, the class feels as if it has been gutted so many times that it is simply a shadow of its former self. With the release of 2.1 and the many changes that accompanied it, DK’s were forever changed. It is simply a necessity that the class be reviewed as far as its relevance in Cyrodiil and its comparative balance to other classes.

HOW DK'S STACK UP:
For the majority of the game, DK's have been forced to substitute their class weaknesses with weapon tree abilities. However with the many changes to abilities, regen and skills this patch, DK's are not able to run the same weapons they once were and still receive the same results. It's important to keep in mind that all of these class weakness work in conjuncture with one another.


1. LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
In a world where if you stand still, you die, the lack of mobility of the DK class has to be the largest weakness.

• DK's are the only class without a reliable gap closer. No, sorry, chains doesn't count as it does not have a fixed direction in which it operates. The primary purpose of chains is to pull people to you, however when it is a boss/cc immune person, it will pull you to them. This skill is also historically buggy.
  
  ---->Why this didn't matter before: In the patches leading up to this one, DK's made up for this lack of a gap closer with invasion, off the sword/board weapon tree. Sword/Board had incredibly good synergy with DK because not only the use of the gap closer, but I'll cover that more in a sec.
  
  ---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration while blocking nerf, it is no longer very adventitious for DK's to run Sword/Board. This removes their gap closer and weakens the class tremendously.
  
  
• DK's have no escape.
  
  ---->Why this didn't matter before: DK's made up for their lack of escape with the use of mist form.
  
  ---->Why it matters now: Mist form is now a weak escape as it is targetable without tab target and it displays an alliance indicator plainly above your head.

2. NO RANGE:
All of the damage that DK's can do aside from obsidian shard is within an ~5-8m melee range.

---->Why this didn't matter before: "In-your-face" DK worked very well with sword and board as a staple of the DK build. DK's were able to comfortably be in melee range, do some damage and tank some damage. Many DK's ran dual S&B. However, some DK's made up for their lack of class range with crushing shock if preferred. They were able to run destro as an off because their strong class heal was preferred over resto heals.

---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration nerfs to block, DK's are unable to tank damage in the same way they once were. To some this is a good thing, and it's debatable. However the issue is that tanking damage while doing damage was the strength of the Dragonknight class. If you need proof, simply look at the skill lines and passives of Ardent Flame and Draconic Power. Both trees contribute to the image of a tanky DD. The blocking nerf of this patch hit everyone hard, but no where near as hard as it DK's. DK's are now put into a unique and sh-tty position. They need to be within ~8m to do any real damage, but they cannot withstand the enemy damage of melee range for very long due to the nerfs to block.

Aside from that, DK's can no longer rely on their class self-heal as it is incredibly weak. This pretty much means a default resto as an off bar for heals. This limits their ability to use destro for the ranged ability of crushing shock. A destro/resto set up is in fact possible, but with dual wield still giving the most spell damage as far as weapons (GO FIGURE), dk's are in need of the damage and generally choose dual wield.

((Sidebar: Truth be told, the fact that dual wield gives spell damage at all is completely nonsensical. This means that magicka users who desire max spell damage (*which is of course STILL so much harder to stack than weapon damage*) are pidgeonholed into equipping a weapon for which they do not receive advantages from most of the passives.))

3. LACK OF DAMAGE:
DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).

• DK is negated by too many things. DK's are the kings of DOT abilities. There is engulfing flames, burning embers, talons, eruption, standard, ect. The majority of our damage abilities in one form or another have a DOT function. All of this damage is negated/lessened by not only the champion system (Thick Skinned), but also Dark Cloak, and purge.
  
  ---->Why this didn't matter before: People didn't permacloak because it was broken back then. DK's sustained the damage of their enemies long enough (through the use of S&B/block) to chip away at their health regardless of the lack of effectiveness of dots.
  
  ---->Why it matters now: Cloak was buffed/fixed/whatever this patch. Permacloaking is possible and done often. This means DK dots are all but useless in this situation. DK's can also not block into oblivion and out-sustain their opponents.
  
  
• Dk's are the only class without an execute. Does anything else need to even be said? Sorcs have Mages wrath, Temps have Radiant Destruction, and NB's have Killers Blade/Impale. HELL- NB's have an execute that has both a stamina and magicka morph. DK's don't even have 1 execute. Can I get a WTF?
  

5. LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY:
DK's synergize best with magicka.

This is not debatable. All of the class skills-- and especially all of the strong ones (talons, whip, fossilize, igneous shield) are all magicka skills for both morphs. The only DK stam abilities are the stamina morph of the two ardent flame dots. There is next to no synergy with any DK stam build aside from "Helping Hands" passive off Earthen Heart tree that gives back 5% stam and the dots.

A Stam DK is essentially just a weapon-based offense. #giveusstaminawhip

• Magicka/Stamina Imbalances Because DK synergize best with magicka, this gives them the distinct privilege of all of the above disadvantages, in addition to being completely out damaged by stam users. Spell damage cannot be stacked to the same height as weapon damage, period. Even with the much needed changes to the mundus stones, the Molag Kena 1 piece, and continuous attack (which should have always been that way to begin with) spell damage is still not offered through 5 piece light armor, or the Master's Weapons and is still not as strong as weapon.
  
  Magicka once had the shield/healing advantage over stam that justified this imbalance between raw damage. With the nerf to shields/heals and the addition of vigor, stam builds are stronger in almost every possible way. And without a truly viable DK *class* stam build available, this again leaves DK's at a sad fork in the road.
  

All in all, this has been a long and desperate rambling of a DK looking for ZOS to understand exactly the position they have put us in. You have fundamentally changed the way that DK is played this patch and you have dismantled the core of the class because of this. Yes, the class is still playable. Yes, it is still functional in groups and yes, you can still kill people. But the purpose of this post is to prove that you have to try twice as hard to achieve half the results. The class cannot thrive if it remains this way.

I applaud the decision to revert to old talons, but am still in disbelief that it was ever intended to begin with. Please reconsider and rethink new options for DK before we see only 3 classes in Cyrodiil.

Sincerely,
Jules

Jules

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk support abilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

manny254

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk supportabilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

Well I would disagree especially in regards to a group build. How many class based skill are used in a stamina build to deal out aoe damage? Class based skills that use magic are one of the largest factors that decide if a players stamina build is a effective.

Tomato

manny254 wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk supportabilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

Well I would disagree especially in regards to a group build. How many class based skill are used in a stamina build to deal out aoe damage? Class based skills that use magic are one of the largest factors that decide if a players stamina build is a effective.

Do you even have a DK? The way you describe everything about DK's doesn't seem to come from experience but what you found on Google. Everything you described can be wiped away by purge or cloak.

PhatGrimReaper

First of all, thanks @Jules, great way to express the way we all feel.

Nerfs and Buffs are a fact of life with MMOs, but no other play style in ESO has been as heavily crippled in PVP as the Magicka DK.... Sure, we all got a little carried away with the Light Armor Vampire thing in the beginning, but to still be paying for it now like some kind of penance seems a little over the top.

I loved playing a Melee Magicka DK all the way up until the last update dropped, the entire style has been beaten into the ground. There are some exceptionally skilled players who still dominate PVP with DK, but the whole point is, they are EXCEPTIONAL!!

The everyday DK is little more than cannon fodder in a lot of cases and to top it all off, DKs don't even make the best meat shields anymore.

I've converted to Medium Armor Stam and I'm enjoying it immensely, but the change was made out of necessity, not because I wanted to change.

When do we stop paying for our brief moment of crazy OPness?.... Every other class has been buffed to make Magicka & Stamina setups viable & competitive except DK.

All three other classes are at least viable/competitive for PVP and have had buffs to ensure they can choose to be stam or magicka..... DKs on the other hand have been beaten into the ground.

I seen a PVP Guild recruiting the other night.... "Recruiting Magicka NBs, Stam NBs, Magicka Sorcs, Stamina Sorcs, Stam Templars & Templar Healers"..... so, my templar can join, but I can't raid with my DK?????

That moment when the ability to sneak faster is actually a major factor in rerolling vamp on your DK.... who would ever have dreamed that the one class that the Zerg feared would be sneaking around?

Tomato

Fossilize and take flight are really the only two useful skills a DK has in PvP.

Jules

manny254 wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk support abilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

Well I would disagree especially in regards to a group build. How many class based skill are used in a stamina build to deal out aoe damage? Class based skills that use magic are one of the largest factors that decide if a players stamina build is a effective.

You're still entirely missing the point.

manny254

Swiift wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk supportabilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

Well I would disagree especially in regards to a group build. How many class based skill are used in a stamina build to deal out aoe damage? Class based skills that use magic are one of the largest factors that decide if a players stamina build is a effective.

Do you even have a DK? The way you describe everything about DK's doesn't seem to come from experience but what you found on Google. Everything you described can be wiped away by purge or cloak.

I have 2 max level dk's (One stamina and one magicka), and have 2 others that I have played in non vet. I am no novice to the class. Stamina dks are very strong right now, but they need to be built correctly.

Tomato

manny254 wrote: »

Swiift wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree about DK as a stamina class. The most standout skill for a DK stam build would have to be Igneous Shield. This skill exemplifies what has made dk a strong class in the past. This power does so many different things with one cast of the button/ skill slot. It gives you a shield based off health. Gives you stam back based off of your pool size (this will be large in a stam build). It gives you a minor weapon power buff, Most importantly it gives you a 30% healing buff. When used with rally or vigor this skill is the best shield any stam build could dream of having in the game.

They also have another thing other stam builds would dream of having. A ultimate that is high burst and based off physical damage for cp. You also have access to a Major armor/spell resistance buff, a AoE Armor Debuff, a 70% Snare, a stamina dot, and petrify.

The skill may not all cost stam, but how they interact is very beneficial. In a stam build having skills that consume your magicka for a useful purpose is very important.

Take flight, yes.

As for everything else... Meh. They're all great dk supportabilities based off magicka. Yes, they work can work positively in a stam build. This does not mean Dk is a strong stamina class, it means it has potential to be. I'm sorry, but if you don't even have one offensive stam-based ability, somethings wrong.

Well I would disagree especially in regards to a group build. How many class based skill are used in a stamina build to deal out aoe damage? Class based skills that use magic are one of the largest factors that decide if a players stamina build is a effective.

Do you even have a DK? The way you describe everything about DK's doesn't seem to come from experience but what you found on Google. Everything you described can be wiped away by purge or cloak.

I have 2 max level dk's (One stamina and one magicka), and have 2 others that I have played in non vet. I am no novice to the class. Stamina dks are very strong right now, but they need to be built correctly.

I agree they are strong in 1v1 but 1vX not so much compared to other classes.

FireCowCommando

Dont forget to nerf jabsjabsjabsjabs... wait isnt that class called templar?

Paulhewhewria

100% Support DKs need some love I feel like my dk I've had since beta launch has been kicked in the nuts every patch to the point that he has no balls.

Zavus

Git Gud

Tomato

Zavus wrote: »

Git Gud

The life of a 12 year old

JDar

Cloak gets nerfed or DK's get buffed. Choose one.

JDar

Swiift wrote: »

Fossilize and take flight are really the only two useful skills a DK has in PvP.

Ash cloud and Talons are two extremely useful PVP skills. Please stop trying to make it sound like DK's are defenseless hapless creatures.

JDar

WarlordGrievous wrote: »

100% Support DKs need some love I feel like my dk I've had since beta launch has been kicked in the nuts every patch to the point that he has no balls.

You mained the "Hero" class, so you have to deal with the repercussions.

Jules

JDar wrote: »

Cloak gets nerfed or DK's get buffed. Choose one.

It think even Hellen Keller could see that cloak does far too many things already.

Disappear
Drop combat
Purge dots
Come out of stealth with 10% increase to damage
Resume combat
Repeat

In order to do all of this as a dk, I would need to:
Crouch
Use environment to evade enemies and then sneak away and wait
Use purge
Use 1/2 an entropy on another target or pop 1/2 a spell power pot
Resume combat
Repeat

Um... yea.

Also, evidence above proves dk needs a buff. So if I have to choose one or the other id rather jump off a bridge considering it's imperative to the health of the game that both happen.

Jules

JDar wrote: »

WarlordGrievous wrote: »

100% Support DKs need some love I feel like my dk I've had since beta launch has been kicked in the nuts every patch to the point that he has no balls.

You mained the "Hero" class, so you have to deal with the repercussions.

The exact bitter attitude of every other class who relishes in the weakness of the DK. It is people like you that pushed and pushed and pushed until the class I love was absolutely destroyed.

There are some logical and reasonable people who desire a 4-class game with some semblance of balance between all four. The choices we all made at launch are not the choices we make today. So until you can say something constructive, please just sit down.

And listen, I know you probably got roflstomped by DK's in previous patches until you cried so much your mother was concerned, and your whole family had a long chat about how to reach out to you, but that doesn't mean the current meta of the game needs to be dictated by your SALT.

SleepyTroll

There is a positive to all of this. If you still play DK and make it work you don't have to worry about anymore more nerfs, I mean how much worse could they make it.

Glarin

YES! Yes to everything in this post Jules. You have summed up my feelings for DKs in this patch.