Feedback: Shieldbreaker 5p-set - it´s OP and should not go live.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

I can see the problem with CP passives & trying to save people with Healing Ward however...

Maybe they should just make this set's 5-piece be: "Damage dealt to damage shields is increased by 100%"?

2150 dmg to shields directly might to that actually for most builds.
Maybe 50 to 70% is more realistic for big hits. I´ll add it in the topic. The idea is better than the current implementation.

Sallington

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Oh no! A counter to shield stacking!!!

It looks like this is the exact and only scenario that the set bonus is meant to be useful.

Only? Considering all magicka builds use damage shields to some extent (stamina DKs too), you mean to tell me the set is extremely strong only against more than half the Cyrodiil population. Only?

You cannot outheal a simple light attack spam! I know this game is not balanced around 1v1s etc, but can you think of anything else that so completely destroys the balance in random fights between stamina and magicka builds?

Not to mention the scenario where you are fighting someone and are in trouble, I come to rescue you with a Healing Ward and instead of rescuing you, I actually end up killing you. You could even troll people by going around and debuffing them with heal ward while they are fighting.

We're not talking about removing the set. We're saying it needs toning down. If you can't survive a simple light attack spam by an archer 30m away what the heck are you going to do in cyrodill anyway?

In the current zerg meta, it's a pretty useless set considering it only works for light and heavy attacks.There's still LOS, stuns, knockdowns, etc. to counter this if you absolutely must use shields against someone wearing 5 pieces of this.

If you are a shield stacker, or just rely on shields in general AND happen to get caught 1v1 out in the open against someone using this set.... Then yes, you should be at a disadvantage since that is the whole purpose of this set.

SturgeHammer

Ezareth wrote: »

Don't forget that there are CP passives that give a player shields when they drink a potion or block. This set actually penalizes you for having those passives. At very least it should do less damage than they provide.

I think the champion system should have been designed in such a way that the milestone passives require a skill point to activate like any other passive. That design would clear up this issue by allowing players to only have on the passiveS they want.

Derra

Sallington wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Oh no! A counter to shield stacking!!!

It looks like this is the exact and only scenario that the set bonus is meant to be useful.

Only? Considering all magicka builds use damage shields to some extent (stamina DKs too), you mean to tell me the set is extremely strong only against more than half the Cyrodiil population. Only?

You cannot outheal a simple light attack spam! I know this game is not balanced around 1v1s etc, but can you think of anything else that so completely destroys the balance in random fights between stamina and magicka builds?

Not to mention the scenario where you are fighting someone and are in trouble, I come to rescue you with a Healing Ward and instead of rescuing you, I actually end up killing you. You could even troll people by going around and debuffing them with heal ward while they are fighting.

We're not talking about removing the set. We're saying it needs toning down. If you can't survive a simple light attack spam by an archer 30m away what the heck are you going to do in cyrodill anyway?

In the current zerg meta, it's a pretty useless set considering it only works for light and heavy attacks.There's still LOS, stuns, knockdowns, etc. to counter this if you absolutely must use shields against someone wearing 5 pieces of this.

If you are a shield stacker, or just rely on shields in general AND happen to get caught 1v1 out in the open against someone using this set.... Then yes, you should be at a disadvantage since that is the whole purpose of this set.

I can assure you in the current meta for grp with less than 6 ppl especially with no templars playing the support/healer role even one enemy utilizing this set will screw your whole grp royally.

Maulkin

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Thank you for the video. It's good to see the shield breaker set is working as intended. It should definitely kill any sorc who isn't fighting back. Any sorc spamming shields and entropy should be punished.

You don't seem to get it do you? If I cast a Harness Magicka I can't take the cast back. Your stamina attacks ignore the harness and provide you with extra damage. So even if u didn't spam shields and used a direct heal instead, your attacks are getting buffed by 2.1k dmg until my Harness runs out.

So, I have debuffed myself with 2.1k worth of incoming damage per animation cancelled attack and there's nothing I can do about it.

And as others have said, Heal Ward is the only option non-Templar healers have in Cyrodiil.

Sallington

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Thank you for the video. It's good to see the shield breaker set is working as intended. It should definitely kill any sorc who isn't fighting back. Any sorc spamming shields and entropy should be punished.

You don't seem to get it do you? If I cast a Harness Magicka I can't take the cast back. Your stamina attacks ignore the harness and provide you with extra damage. So even if u didn't spam shields and used a direct heal instead, your attacks are getting buffed by 2.1k dmg until my Harness runs out.

So, I have debuffed myself with 2.1k worth of incoming damage per animation cancelled attack and there's nothing I can do about it.

And as others have said, Heal Ward is the only option non-Templar healers have in Cyrodiil.

Do mean as far as heals go? Grand healing, regeneration and blessing of protection (and morphs) are all heavily utilized heals available to any class.

ToRelax

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by played hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

Since this set is useful against every magica build out there and even against stamina DKs (better don´t cast that igneos shield) i don´t see a reason not to use it. Especially in grp fights when you can´t control healing wards from other players and instead of helping you they actually kill you by casting a ward on you.

Several reasons why you wouldn't be wearing this set...

1. Medium set with stamina bonuses, so you probably don't want to wear it as any magicka build.
2. You cannot combine this set with any crafted set, meaning you cannot go 5/5/2 and as a result you'll have one less set bonus.
3. 5-Set is useless against anyone not using dmg shields, making you unfavored to win those fights where not only does the opponent have possibly one more set bonus than you (5/5/2), but two set bonuses more (since 5-set of this set becomes useless). These fights include: stam sorcs, stam NBs, some stam Templars, some stam DKs, many magicka Templars, some magicka DKs.

I did use the set as a magicka Sorc, it simply killed any magicka build other than NBs (who still had to cloak and run).
I was missing some regen and a lot of cost reduction against stamina builds, that the extra dodge rolls weren't really able to make up for after the dodge roll nerf (I can tell you on Live it actually works).

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe they could leave this as it is, but definately implement a cooldown. This set should be helpfull, since it only helps against shields. But spamming light attack non stop to kill someone within seconds can't be right.

A cooldown should help.

Good idea, but I don't think it would be useful that way. If the damage can be outhealed just by using Healing Ward once per cd (the instant heal) and having Entropy active, the shield user would have no extra pressure on him. Only thing that would be useful then is an extra shot at killing low health targets who would otherwise have been safed by Healing Ward.

I think the best would really be just let it actually attack shields, either including Bone Shield and Harness Magicka or let it just only trigger when your attack actually hits the shields (to not turn these two shields into damage buffs for the enemy).

Maulkin

Sallington wrote: »

In the current zerg meta, it's a pretty useless set considering it only works for light and heavy attacks.There's still LOS, stuns, knockdowns, etc. to counter this if you absolutely must use shields against someone wearing 5 pieces of this.

If you are a shield stacker, or just rely on shields in general AND happen to get caught 1v1 out in the open against someone using this set.... Then yes, you should be at a disadvantage since that is the whole purpose of this set.

In the new meta my friend, where only certain tanks with certain builds will be able to block, almost everybody will be animation cancelling. In fact +70% of the Cyrodiil population does already. Light attacks on my death recap are always aplenty.

EVERY light armor build relies on shields, only possible exception being templars. DKs need igneous shield and NBs and Sorcs need Heal Ward.

And by the looks of it you're not just at a disadvantage. You are absolutely fecked.

Erondil

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by player hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

If you stop using your only defensive tool to put pressure, the ennemy wont stop attacking and will 100% kill you before you even get him ukder 50% hp,, since they (overall) got way more damages, decent hot running and can dodgeroll your attack without wasting a GCD... no?

Using this set makes them deal significantly less damage against targets without damage shield.

You are virtually losing two set bonuses, and cannot get things such as Hunding's (or Air, or Skirmisher) with this set.


This set will be used by stamina builds, and sorcs have good counters vs majority of them (Bolt Escape, mines).
Bow users might be troublesome however, but most of bow damage comes from Snipe which is easy to counter.

Counter to bow? Block, Rolldodge, Reflect.. oh wait....

Lorkhan

@ZOS, please buff shield breaker set!
just more 50% damage and it will be balanced.
ty

Maulkin

Sallington wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Thank you for the video. It's good to see the shield breaker set is working as intended. It should definitely kill any sorc who isn't fighting back. Any sorc spamming shields and entropy should be punished.

You don't seem to get it do you? If I cast a Harness Magicka I can't take the cast back. Your stamina attacks ignore the harness and provide you with extra damage. So even if u didn't spam shields and used a direct heal instead, your attacks are getting buffed by 2.1k dmg until my Harness runs out.

So, I have debuffed myself with 2.1k worth of incoming damage per animation cancelled attack and there's nothing I can do about it.

And as others have said, Heal Ward is the only option non-Templar healers have in Cyrodiil.

Do mean as far as heals go? Grand healing, regeneration and blessing of protection (and morphs) are all heavily utilized heals available to any class.

You are joking right? Today even 24-man blobs have templars spamming BoL instead of Grand Healing cause it offers far more counter to burst damage. And for anything smaller than 24, have you seen grand healing spammers in 10 man groups much lately? I haven't

Even more so now, with the nerf to healing that is rendering all those low-heal HoTs extremely inefficient. 700hp heals from Rapid Regen. Lol

Lorkhan

stamina builds cant perma block or perma dodge. but magika users still can perma shield stack.
shield breaker is the only counter to this , i rly think it need to be stronger

bowmanz607

Derra wrote: »

The buff to the shieldbreaker set in the latest pts 2.1.2 patch brought us to the point where we had to test the actual dmg and impact it could have on builds that focus on dmgshields as their one and only defense. I´m mainly playing grp support in a 3 to 5 person grp with my sorcerer so a set giving extra dmg on my only vaible pvp burstheal is nothing fun to start with. This is mainly written from the pov of a non templar grp player who enjoys to play heal/support:


We recorded a short clip of the 5piece bonus in action in three different scenarios.
1. Is a sorc with their normal hotbar setup without any aditional healing abilities: Healing ward spam only.
2. Specific healing ability slottet to counter the setbonus: Rapidregeneration + healing ward spam.
3. Two healing abilities slotted: Rapid regeneration + combat prayer + healing ward.

https://youtu.be/ZEhL_DonvnU

Please keep in mind that this is only to showcase the dmg potential of the shieldbreaker set. We tested on a sorcerer with 35k magica and 2000 spellpower and 20k hp while the attacking character was full hp specced with only 1700 weapondmg. Put into practice when used in templates that actually deal dmg or with multiple attackers and grp fights the following problems are going to multiply.

The first problem might be considered a bug: The extradmg proccs on stamina lightattacks when harness magica is active on the target which does in no way interact with physical dmg. Due to this someone with harness magica up will basically buff anyones dmg who´s using that set.

Secondly it renders the only active defense left for the sorcerer class useless (infact you´re better off not using your class shield at all when someone with that set is attacking you). It forces any magica sorcerer to slot atleast rapid regeneration + another healing ability + purge to combat the dmgoutput of the setbonus. You can see in the last clip of the video when the healdebuff of the enchantment proccs i go down even while spamming combat prayer. Purge is a must have against any build with a healing debuff using this set. This forces any magica sorc to use a restoration staff as second weapon and THREE skillslots with abilities dedicated to combat one setbonus to not be a freekill for anyone using the shieldbreaker set.
I can´t comment on magica nightblades as i did not play one on the pts yet - it might be even worse depending on the ongoing fixes to cloak.

Thirdly, and this might be the most important issue i have with the current implementation of the shieldbreaker set: It renders any attempt to heal in pvp for non templars futile. PvP is about burstdmg and healing has to react to that burstdmg. Currently this is possible with the restoration staff spell healing ward. This will not be the case if the shieldbreaker set goes live in it´s current form.
A low hp target affected by healing ward is basically a freekill for anyone using the shieldbreaker set. No class but templars will be able to perform the healerrole reliably because the restoration staffs tool to combat burstdmg will actually be a deathsentence to the affected player.


Possible fixes for the set to stay a vaible option but not be overpowered as it currently is, would be:
1: Let battlespirit debuff take effect on the setbonus.
2: Let the setbonus only attack shields.

Edit: 3: Add a cooldown to the 5p bonus (by dracane)
4: 5p-bonus: Increase dmg on shields by 100% (by dduke) - maybe 50 to 70% might be more in line (addition by derra)

You realize that this set is meant to counter sheild stacker right? You still have to aquire they set and be willing to use a 5pc set that is only useful against certain other playstyles. Morwove, it is a medium set which reduces ppl using even more. Especially in this new meta where everyone is going magicka. It's the equivalent of someone using a detect pot on a nb and then a nb yelling nerf b/c that playstyle was countered. If I go up against anyone else not using a sheild the set does not even work. You cant get made cause there us a viable counter to your playstyle.

bowmanz607

It is serous like getting a light attack through a sheild and you are still mitigating all other damage

Lorkhan

this set is the only reason i'm still thinking about going stamina build.
i tryed before the 90% buff, and it was really insufficient. i was decided give up and go magika.
now, after the buff, it is decent, but its not OP for sure.
this video uploaded shows nothing.

Dracane

Imagine an unkillable DK tank using this set
It makes him vulnerable, because he cannot block all the time.
But 40 k health and a bit defense is more than enough to live forever in this current patch, he needs no offensive stats, but will eat any shield users alive in a few seconds while being unkillable

ToRelax

Sallington wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Oh no! A counter to shield stacking!!!

It looks like this is the exact and only scenario that the set bonus is meant to be useful.

Only? Considering all magicka builds use damage shields to some extent (stamina DKs too), you mean to tell me the set is extremely strong only against more than half the Cyrodiil population. Only?

You cannot outheal a simple light attack spam! I know this game is not balanced around 1v1s etc, but can you think of anything else that so completely destroys the balance in random fights between stamina and magicka builds?

Not to mention the scenario where you are fighting someone and are in trouble, I come to rescue you with a Healing Ward and instead of rescuing you, I actually end up killing you. You could even troll people by going around and debuffing them with heal ward while they are fighting.

We're not talking about removing the set. We're saying it needs toning down. If you can't survive a simple light attack spam by an archer 30m away what the heck are you going to do in cyrodill anyway?

In the current zerg meta, it's a pretty useless set considering it only works for light and heavy attacks.There's still LOS, stuns, knockdowns, etc. to counter this if you absolutely must use shields against someone wearing 5 pieces of this.

If you are a shield stacker, or just rely on shields in general AND happen to get caught 1v1 out in the open against someone using this set.... Then yes, you should be at a disadvantage since that is the whole purpose of this set.

Yes, unlessyoureusingthiswithoverloadagainstbarrierderp, it won't be that important in the zerg meta. Who cares, with light and heavy attacks this was obviouly never intended to be a set to be used against zergs (actually, nothing seems to be supposed to be used against zergs...). So why do you bring this up.

And I agree, you should be at a disadvantage against this set. But you shouldnt be a free kill, ffs.

Sallington wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Thank you for the video. It's good to see the shield breaker set is working as intended. It should definitely kill any sorc who isn't fighting back. Any sorc spamming shields and entropy should be punished.

You don't seem to get it do you? If I cast a Harness Magicka I can't take the cast back. Your stamina attacks ignore the harness and provide you with extra damage. So even if u didn't spam shields and used a direct heal instead, your attacks are getting buffed by 2.1k dmg until my Harness runs out.

So, I have debuffed myself with 2.1k worth of incoming damage per animation cancelled attack and there's nothing I can do about it.

And as others have said, Heal Ward is the only option non-Templar healers have in Cyrodiil.

Do mean as far as heals go? Grand healing, regeneration and blessing of protection (and morphs) are all heavily utilized heals available to any class.

Using another heal is at least an option for a Sorcerer. It would be a lot weaker than using Healing Ward unless you fight someone with this set, but you can still fight back.
But not using your classes only defense is NOT an option. I can't just decide to not use Healing Hardened Ward or I'll die. Healing Springs/Combat Prayer can outheal the damage I was not able to take with Hardened Ward if I play it carefully. But they are definitely not able to simply outheal all damage hitting me at all. Would be pretty OP, too.

Edit: Reading through comments again, bad typo. Sorry

Yuke

even the biggest hater has to admit that this is sick and far away from balanced.

Derra

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The buff to the shieldbreaker set in the latest pts 2.1.2 patch brought us to the point where we had to test the actual dmg and impact it could have on builds that focus on dmgshields as their one and only defense. I´m mainly playing grp support in a 3 to 5 person grp with my sorcerer so a set giving extra dmg on my only vaible pvp burstheal is nothing fun to start with. This is mainly written from the pov of a non templar grp player who enjoys to play heal/support:


We recorded a short clip of the 5piece bonus in action in three different scenarios.
1. Is a sorc with their normal hotbar setup without any aditional healing abilities: Healing ward spam only.
2. Specific healing ability slottet to counter the setbonus: Rapidregeneration + healing ward spam.
3. Two healing abilities slotted: Rapid regeneration + combat prayer + healing ward.

https://youtu.be/ZEhL_DonvnU

Please keep in mind that this is only to showcase the dmg potential of the shieldbreaker set. We tested on a sorcerer with 35k magica and 2000 spellpower and 20k hp while the attacking character was full hp specced with only 1700 weapondmg. Put into practice when used in templates that actually deal dmg or with multiple attackers and grp fights the following problems are going to multiply.

The first problem might be considered a bug: The extradmg proccs on stamina lightattacks when harness magica is active on the target which does in no way interact with physical dmg. Due to this someone with harness magica up will basically buff anyones dmg who´s using that set.

Secondly it renders the only active defense left for the sorcerer class useless (infact you´re better off not using your class shield at all when someone with that set is attacking you). It forces any magica sorcerer to slot atleast rapid regeneration + another healing ability + purge to combat the dmgoutput of the setbonus. You can see in the last clip of the video when the healdebuff of the enchantment proccs i go down even while spamming combat prayer. Purge is a must have against any build with a healing debuff using this set. This forces any magica sorc to use a restoration staff as second weapon and THREE skillslots with abilities dedicated to combat one setbonus to not be a freekill for anyone using the shieldbreaker set.
I can´t comment on magica nightblades as i did not play one on the pts yet - it might be even worse depending on the ongoing fixes to cloak.

Thirdly, and this might be the most important issue i have with the current implementation of the shieldbreaker set: It renders any attempt to heal in pvp for non templars futile. PvP is about burstdmg and healing has to react to that burstdmg. Currently this is possible with the restoration staff spell healing ward. This will not be the case if the shieldbreaker set goes live in it´s current form.
A low hp target affected by healing ward is basically a freekill for anyone using the shieldbreaker set. No class but templars will be able to perform the healerrole reliably because the restoration staffs tool to combat burstdmg will actually be a deathsentence to the affected player.


Possible fixes for the set to stay a vaible option but not be overpowered as it currently is, would be:
1: Let battlespirit debuff take effect on the setbonus.
2: Let the setbonus only attack shields.

Edit: 3: Add a cooldown to the 5p bonus (by dracane)
4: 5p-bonus: Increase dmg on shields by 100% (by dduke) - maybe 50 to 70% might be more in line (addition by derra)

You realize that this set is meant to counter sheild stacker right? You still have to aquire they set and be willing to use a 5pc set that is only useful against certain other playstyles. Morwove, it is a medium set which reduces ppl using even more. Especially in this new meta where everyone is going magicka. It's the equivalent of someone using a detect pot on a nb and then a nb yelling nerf b/c that playstyle was countered. If I go up against anyone else not using a sheild the set does not even work. You cant get made cause there us a viable counter to your playstyle.

I thought i read something in the patchnotes about detect potions being nerfed heavily because they were to vaible as a counter against cloak. Two wrongs don´t make a right in this situation.

Lorkhan

this set is only good because 99% of players are shield stacking....
because.....shield stack is OP.

Lorkhan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjDOD5SBfTk

Erondil

bowmanz607 wrote: »

It is serous like getting a light attack through a sheild and you are still mitigating all other damage

Its not a light attack man... its 2k irresistible dmg, which is equivalent to a 5k tooltip dmg skill since its not mitigated by armor/spell resist nor reduced by battle spirit. For most of players, a 5k tooltip skill is concelead weapon/whip/surprise attack...

Derra

Lorkhan wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjDOD5SBfTk

So you think posting a video of edit: not you but some guy killing a supposedly OP shieldstacker in a 80s fight is going to prove your point? But ofc i understand that you´re offended he did not have the curtesy to die in 2 seconds after notyou sniped him...

Edit: Teabagging really classy on this one...

Lorkhan

its not me in the video

bowmanz607

Erondil wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

It is serous like getting a light attack through a sheild and you are still mitigating all other damage

Its not a light attack man... its 2k irresistible dmg, which is equivalent to a 5k tooltip dmg skill since its not mitigated by armor/spell resist nor reduced by battle spirit. For most of players, a 5k tooltip skill is concelead weapon/whip/surprise attack...

My light attacks on a bow against players is like1.5k and I don't even have points into increasing damage.

Lorkhan

the video was uploaded this month. this is the live server.
the shield stack thing is WAY worse in the pts right now.

i will not suffer, man. im not hating anything. nerf this set, everyboy (me included) going to be magika shield stacker....
np at all. if this is what you want.

Cinbri

Cinbri wrote: »

Shieldstackers(mostly sorcs) already using broken shield mechanic for months, i.e. full negating penetration, dots, crit rate numbers. ZOS should tweak set a little, but don't change set mechanic until make shileds crittable and dotable, as shieldstacking is too OP. I don't wanna see 2.1 - Era of Sorcs Online again.

Derra

Cinbri wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Shieldstackers(mostly sorcs) already using broken shield mechanic for months, i.e. full negating penetration, dots, crit rate numbers. ZOS should tweak set a little, but don't change set mechanic until make shileds crittable and dotable, as shieldstacking is too OP. I don't wanna see 2.1 - Era of Sorcs Online again.

The problem is in my opinion the set is not harming shield stacking sorcs the most but every other magica build and any class thats not a templar who tries to play as a healer...

It hurst sorcs that played without healing staff (which is impossible now) the most - these sorcs were never a problem to begin with...

Cinbri

Seems ZOS just gave up on balancing shieldstacking - here is the result. You can face same decisions for month if you are playing templars. So, nothing will surprise me anymore. ...

Alcast

block?