There CANNOT be access gates to the Imperial City paid DLC

Darlgon

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

The thing you fail to mention is that while DC is locked out of IC their FULL force will be in Cyrodiil while the other alliances will have half their forces in IC.

There is no full force.
Our FULL force gets us control of 25% of the campaigns for 33% of the day.
Or in other words, our FULL force grants us control over approx 8% of PvP.

Currently EVERY faction has full PVP force in Cyrodiil because its the only PVP place......... So when IC is available.... The sides that have access to it will have half if not more of their forces inside of it, leaving very little forces in Cyrodiil to stop your DC's FULL force from taking back your homes keeps + what ever is required for access. yes once you lock out another alliance their full force with greater numbers will come take it back from you but will still have access for a bit.

So even tho DC population is much less in Cyrodiil.. When half of the enemies armies are in IC, DC's Cyrodiil population (force) will actually be bigger than ADs or EPs in Cyrodiil so you then have teh advantage

Are you just trolling? Or do you no longer play this game, just the forums?

The point most people are pointing out in this forum is that.. EVEN IF EVERY DC IN THAT CAMPAIGN were locked out they could not mount enough people to take the required keeps.

That "FULL FORCE" you keep talking about is divided among FOUR campaigns.

As another example.. its 8:30 East Coast time, arguably Prime Time US, without taking into account the West Coasters. Lets see what the pops are in the campaigns...

Azuras AD 3 Bars - DC Pop Lock - EP Pop Lock
Chillrend AD 1 Bar - DC 1 Bar - EP 2 Bars
Haderus AD 3 Bars - DC 2 Bars - EP 2 Bars
Thornblade AD 2 Bars - DC 1 Bar - EP 1 Bar

Blackwater (just for grins) AD Pop Locked - DC 3 Bars - EP 3 Bars

Total that up (and call Pop lock as 4 bars):

AD 3 Bars + 1 Bar + 3 Bars + 2 Bars = 9 bars
DC 4 bars + 1 bar + 2 bars + 1 bar = 8 bars
EP 4 bars + 2 bars + 2 bars + 1 bar = 9 bars

But only one campaign has any poplocks, Azuras. So, the 1 bar could be two people RPing in the base. DC has TWO out of the FOUR campaigns where they dont have enough people to do anything but take one keep and hope to hold it. EP is the same in one of the four. Heck, even AD is one bar in one of the campaigns.

Remember also, that you cant travel to player anymore, so its Home or Guest campaigns only, unless you just love blowing AP to change campaigns.

Now, its roleplay assumption time.

Lets assume that most of the regular AvA guilds home to Azuras. After all, its really the only campaign that interests most full-time AvA players I know. Its where they expect the "real" fights to be, barring a lagfest.

Second, lets assume that, with the new release, all DC rolled into two campaigns, because those on Azuras stayed there and the rest MAYBE could pop-lock one... Lets pick Chillrend. Any regular AvA players would Guest into that campaign, because they also would like guaranteed access to IC. That would leave any DC on Haderus or Thornblade with no way to access IC unless they change campaigns.

Now.. EP picks Thornblade. So, all the regular AvA players Guest there.Any EP freelancers home there.Any EP on Haderus or Chill is SOL for access to IC, content THEY paid for.

Finally, AD picks Haderus, since they seem to love to zergblob the map yellow. Any floating AD pick it as home, with the Azuras guys guesting. Chill and Thorn AD, "Sorry Charlie".

Now, factor in that EP only has TWO active AvA guilds atm. The others apparently left and rerolled DC, or left the game entirely.

If AD chooses week two to take over Thornblade, so they bring their 3 group zerg guilds and dominate the map. AD has access to IC in Thornblade AND Haderus, while EP is stuck until the end of the week, along with any DC guys, with no access to IC. They just have to HOPE that the zerg guilds leave.

The system right now, appears to be rewarding the zergs with the buff of IC, and low pop factions with nothing to do until Orcsinium.

Hookgrin

Has ZOS considered the fact that the raving reviews of IC being "an adrenaline rush" and such are going to flip 180 degrees when IC goes live and everyone realizes IC is nothing more than a grindfest for TV stones when only one alliance can access at a time?

Folks seem to really be liking the 3 alliance PvP in the streets. This is not what IC is. It is one alliance attacking mobs for TV stones until another alliance gets access. There will be a brief 2 alliance battle when the new alliance attempts to go in and flush out the old one, but once they're clear, grindfest. And once you get your VR16 gear - bored.

From what I have seen, the gear you spend your TV stones on is not worth the effort. Players are doing the 3 alliance PVP now because it's fun and TV stones are more a measure of how successful you are, not for making any actual purchases.

I guess the concept is fine, better than what we've had, but everyone's gonna miss that open world PVP from PTS. In fact, they may feel cheated when they buy the DLC and then realize there is no 3 alliance PVP like we are experiencing now.

ZOS may want to take that into consideration.

Hiero_Glyph

The only problem with gated access is that IC is paid DLC. If ZoS wants to make it free then this would be a different discussion entirely.

k2blader

Is this on EU?

Most of the time when I log in DC has the most control and highest pops.

Defilted

Daoc did content that could only be accessed if you own 2 of 3 relics. It was awesome and more than fun to go out and get these relic keeps to open this access. The zerg that you did to the faction that owned the area before you was awsome and tons of fun.

Domander

The alliances that have access will have players in the city.... the ones that don't will probably have more players taking keeps so they can get into the city.

Radburn

I would have liked to see a middle district which can only be accessed by one faction at a time and grants increased TV stone gains as well as experience. The faction who controls it has access to it, however they need to exit through the other non-restricted districts with their loot.

This would create some fierce fighting in the streets and the faction(s) which may not have the numbers to gain access to the middle to exact their vengeance on those who do by taking their TV stones.

olemanwinter

Domander wrote: »

The alliances that have access will have players in the city.... the ones that don't will probably have more players taking keeps so they can get into the city.

As I've said before, if the numbers were equal or if people were randomly assigned campaigns or something this MIGHT matter.

But as it stands now, it might take HOURS for DC to change the map and gain access to Imperial City. THE MOMENT that happens and we displace AD or EP they will take there already superior force and crash like a wave across the map and we lose access again.

What you are describing is exactly what will happen. You are correct. But the result is no different. The result is access to Imperial City for 3-4 hours per day on 1 server out of 4.

At least that's what I strongly believe will take place if they do "Native 6"

Darlgon

k2blader wrote: »

Is this on EU?

Most of the time when I log in DC has the most control and highest pops.

Generally, when people talk of EU server they put (EU) behind it.. This is about both Haderus (PTS) and Live NA.

Darlgon

Domander wrote: »

The alliances that have access will have players in the city.... the ones that don't will probably have more players taking keeps so they can get into the city.

Sorry Dom. I think a LOT of players will log in, planning on going to IC for a few hours, see a map that does not favor them going into IC any time soon, and log out. Very few people are GoS or other AvA guilds.

k2blader

Darlgon wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Is this on EU?

Most of the time when I log in DC has the most control and highest pops.

Generally, when people talk of EU server they put (EU) behind it.. This is about both Haderus (PTS) and Live NA.

Not always.

PTS doesn't count you know.

Live NA. Yeah, see what I had posted before..

Gilvoth

Thymos wrote: »

I certainly would hate it if my only way to get into Cryodiil hinged on the timing of when most of my alliance is online playing in Cyrodiil.

If I paid for this content, and couldn't have my gametime sync up to the times it is open to my alliance, I would definitely be upset.

I wont be buying it if this is how it ends up. Why buy something that I will barely get to enjoy?

Casdha

Ok I'm gonna be the complete out there nut again, but how about keeping the keep requirements as is for the PvP crowd who don't like to quest and for the rest, have Cadwell offer you a back door to the sewers from the Harborage if you completed gold.

Then it would be much like Cyrodiil is now if you go in by yourself or a small group,,,, you are taking your chances at doing what you can do but knowing you can't accomplish big goals by yourself. At least folks wouldn't be locked out completely and no one has to do one or the other, they just do what suits their play style.

olemanwinter

Casdha wrote: »

Ok I'm gonna be the complete out there nut again, but how about keeping the keep requirements as is for the PvP crowd who don't like to quest and for the rest, have Cadwell offer you a back door to the sewers from the Harborage if you completed gold.

Then it would be much like Cyrodiil is now if you go in by yourself or a small group,,,, you are taking your chances at doing what you can do but knowing you can't accomplish big goals by yourself. At least folks wouldn't be locked out completely and no one has to do one or the other, they just do what suits their play style.

Mmmmmm.....Acceptable

Not my first choice, but definitely better than blanket restrictions.

I might not be "pleased" with it, but I would buy the DLC knowing I could access it when I finish those up.

And considering how crappy the Caldwell's rewards are.....that might actually seem like a good reward for future new players coming in.

And it makes sense too. If Caldwell has a portal that sends you all over the realm, certainly the Cyrodiil sewers are no problem either.

I'm going to link your comment to my Original Post, because if they go ahead with some type of access gate(which I hope they don't), I like this as an alternative. I think it's a better compromise than any other I've seen suggested, even though I think everyone should have unfettered access.

olemanwinter

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

/lurk

Please take notice of this particular post by another user. If an Access gate is deemed absolutely necessary, PRETTY PLEASE consider something like he describes in this post.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2096528/#Comment_2096528

Elloa

I very much agree with @olemanwinter I'm on the Eu server, and recently had a discussion with a awesome french girl, who play a lot more PVP than I do and explained me about the hidden alliances that pleague our Eu campaign. She is EP, and EP is dominated no matter what they are doing by AD and Dc altogether.
(Yes, on EU, DC is dominating)

We ere discussing how great the future change in Cyrodiil would solve those issues: no more Emperor buff and server buff would bring back fair competition, but this would be removed indeed to have access to the Imperial City;

I understand how in theory, to gain access to Cyrodiil would create awesome fights and interesting PVP. But the problem is that players will not play that way. There is too much loot and to much advantages to let players not trying to cheat and take advantages on some situation.
This problem will not be shown on PTS either. Because on PTS, players are playing to test. it's generally dedicated players, mixed from Eu and NA that are mixing up together, making the faction balance artificially more balanced.

I'm fine with testing this content on PTS, with several different ruleset, but I do not think you will have an accurate result from those test as here it's not technical feedback, but crowd and community psychology. This is a little bit more subtil.

Junglejim82

Here's my problem on eups4 as a DC player in azura campaign. I work , get home log in try to q cyrodil ...... 228 in q. That's not hyperbole that's fact . Takes up-to 90 mins or even more to get in . Generally the map isn't favourable to us. If the right guys ain't on we ain't capping properly. So by 21:30 I'm in cyrodil if I manage to help grab enough keeps by the time I access i.c it's bed time for work. Don't suggest a campaign switch as azure is only pop locked vet server for DC. So when do I get in to see where my money went? Won't buy it under those circumstances no chance in hell

olemanwinter

So, I checked Saturday mid-day and late at night to find nothing had changed. DC would still have no access across all 4 Vet servers. AD had access across all 4. EP in 3.

Today, Sunday 5pm EST, and DC would still have no access in any campaign, at all.

Since I've been checking, since the PTS launched and I learned of the potential access gate, I've never seen any campaign conditions that would allow DC to access it.

If I missed it, it must have been a flash of effort followed by immediate abandonment.

As far as I can tell, DC hasn't been in a position on live that would allow them to access Imperial City in ANY VET CAMPAIGN for at least 4 days.

Hiero_Glyph

Having open access and forcing players to go through hostile territory to access IC seems difficult enough. Reward alliances with control of 6 home keeps with IC access from the Transitus Network. There is no point in restricting access to paid DLC.

Fornacis

You have a good point and a very detailed post to explain the rationing behind your thoughts. One thing we all know is AD always has the higher population in Cyrodiil overall, then EP and DC follows. But, the caliber of players that DC has is is very high. I am EP on most of my characters and will admit that DC has some really good players, not to take away from AD because they have great players also, but the one thing to keep in mind is the good players that help balance the campaigns are mostly here on the PTS. I even noticed AD had a low pop bonus yesterday on the PTS, which doesnt show much because people are making templates in different factions, but it does show the difference of how many EP and DC players chose to come to the PTS vs AD players. It will be interesting to watch it all play out on live, but lets not jump the gun too quickly and let the AD have their day on live for now. EP and DC will be back soon with a vengence. Great thread!

post script
PvE players will now join campaigns to gain access to IC and help the campaign population balancing issues.

Sacadon

If they gate access IC, let it only be through a campaign for those that want that type of challenge. Otherwise, let those gates be open to all who have the DLC.

Poxheart

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

The thing you fail to mention is that while DC is locked out of IC their FULL force will be in Cyrodiil while the other alliances will have half their forces in IC. While this happens there is no reason DC shouldn't be bale to take back their home keeps + to gain access to IC.

This person gets it

It's a nice theory, but what I predict will happen is something along the lines of this:

The strongest groups from the opposing alliance(s) will stay out of the IC and farm the weaker alliance* attempting to take back the keep(s) required to gain access. The farming will continue until weaker alliance's population starts to log off (whether due to frustration or just regular log time doesn't matter). Once the weaker alliance's population drops, then those strong groups will go into IC and do that content. Most likely they'll have a way to monitor events in Cyrodiil and will respond quickly if the weaker alliance makes a push.

*In the case of the OP this means DC.

olemanwinter

Targaryen wrote: »

You have a good point and a very detailed post to explain the rationing behind your thoughts. One thing we all know is AD always has the higher population in Cyrodiil overall, then EP and DC follows. But, the caliber of players that DC has is is very high. I am EP on most of my characters and will admit that DC has some really good players, not to take away from AD because they have great players also, but the one thing to keep in mind is the good players that help balance the campaigns are mostly here on the PTS. I even noticed AD had a low pop bonus yesterday on the PTS, which doesnt show much because people are making templates in different factions, but it does show the difference of how many EP and DC players chose to come to the PTS vs AD players. It will be interesting to watch it all play out on live, but lets not jump the gun too quickly and let the AD have their day on live for now. EP and DC will be back soon with a vengence. Great thread!

post script
PvE players will now join campaigns to gain access to IC and help the campaign population balancing issues.

You might be right, but at what point will we know? After DLC goes live and people BEGIN without access???

Are PvE players really going to join campaigns to gain access when the access is not available?

Are they even going to buy the DLC if they have to zerg keeps to use it?

Slylok

On PS4 there is a campaign where EP owns all the keeps or all but one or two of them at all times. How is that campaign going to work? EP will 100% have access and the other two factions will never have access while using ANY form of Keep access system.

SeptimusDova

Would a better form of alternate access be.. To maintain possession of your scrolls? Limited territory to cover. Simplifies, Density,Scope,Duration. Satisfies Complexity and nullifies Culmination ?

byrom101b16_ESO

It is a self-evidently deeply flawed mechanic that should have been thrown out in the first inception meeting at Zenimax many, many months ago.

It's perfectly obvious to anyone with a the slightest amount of common sense that you will utterly enrage people paying for content and then denying it to them because of an in-game mechanism that punishes them for being in the 'wrong alliance', not being a top PvP'er, not being online at the right moment, being a casual player or preferring the softer end of PvE play... or indeed being a crafter who doesn't PvP.

On the flipside, this rewards no-lifers, gankers, griefers, FOTM class hoppers and dedicated PvP players, even in areas where PvP is not classically the focus of the game (crafting, grinding or PvE questing for reward, etc.).

The type of game Zenimax are forcing on players who don't fit the ever narrowing and leetist profile of 'those who will do well after the patch' is a policy that is truly difficult to comprehend. I do wonder whether they have the slightest concept of how many paying customers they are going to upset unless there are sweeping changes to the current PTS format of Grand Theft Griefer: Imperial City.

If you are going to create a TK looting ganking and griefing encouraging environment which has to be paid for, that's one thing... but to put crafting and significant PvE elements behind it, gate the content behind mass PvP faction performance so it cannot always (or frequently in some cases) be accessed as and when players have time to be online is frankly utterly wrong footed, foolish and all the other mild and fluffy words I am 'allowed' to use on these forums for a group of inexplicable inept design decisions that deserve far harsher commentary.

This would be the case even IF the servers ran smoothly and lag free... but the idea that you have to grind for a long time to lose the results of your efforts (except the pathetic consolation amounts that cannot be looted) to a lag spike or a DC, never mind a zerg blob or skilless NB using a macro whilst you are on a loading screen...

... Who would pay for this kind of 'enjoyment'?

byrom101b16_ESO

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

The only problem with gated access is that IC is paid DLC. If ZoS wants to make it free then this would be a different discussion entirely.

Actually, it may breach statutory rights in some EU countries.

Denying access to entertainment that has been paid for based on factors the customer cannot individually resolve with the supplier is most probably illegal in the UK for instance, where no contract can legally remove your rights under law, nor can it require you to do so, even if you agree to it.

This is of course quite apart from the fact it's completely self-defeating from a customer satisfaction point of view. You may not as the saying goes, be able to please all of the people, all of the time... but if you want a successful business, that's what you ALWAYS aim at.

skillastat

I can't wait to play IC DLC

RoamingRiverElk

Yuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I think they could make access restrictions depending on campaign.

I really feel for US DC players when it comes to access restrictions but imho they are needed to make IC enjoyable at all for non hardcore players - otherwise the tel var stone system would have to be changed.

^ this

+

there HAS to be an access restriction, otherwise no1 will care about the "real" 3 faction pvp outside of IC.

IC rightnow on PTS is a medieval Call of Duty with demons. -_-

Well... I sure don't care about the "real" laggy 3 faction zergy pvp outside of IC after playing this game for a year. ^^ Cyrodiil PvP used to be great when there still were 10 campaigns. These days? Difficult to find nice fights when playing in a very small group - and even then, it's only a couple of classes/builds that are good/viable for that - at least for me.

But my question is, why force players to play the outside-IC PvP, if it *inherently* isn't as great as inside-IC PvP?

Cherryblossom

I honestly think you have a great point. I have to say, I've been debating whether or not to buy, for a very similar reason.

I'd also mention the idea that because your alliance doesn't have access means you work harder to get access, has other flaws. I have toons in every alliance, if I don't want to wait I will switch to another alliance that does have access.

It does seem the strangest thing to pay for something you don't have access too! More importantly depending on when you play, you may never have access too!