PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

dodgehopper_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Answer: Hardened Ward. Also before 1.6 you could wear bound armor which was essentially getting heavy armor for free. My Sorc was built for doing dps, and by slotting these two things in 1.5 it was one of the most beast tanks I had. Throw in Boundless Storm for good measure and you have an amazing agro magnet that won't ever die... all without using stamina. You can still do this to some extent. There is a reason that some of the best sorcerers in the game are unkillable, can escape if they even do get hurt, and hit you like a truck unless you're sporting a ton of Nirncrux (and even then they can pack a wallop).

To all of you guys in the PVE crowd who are saying 'we're not with you guys in pvp-land, I really don't understand your reasoning'. Either its a bad mechanic or it is not. Fighting other players is like fighting Bosses in a dungeon (or often worse). I recognize the statement you are making that the complaint about block casting comes from PVP-land. My point is it doesn't mean that it is a good suggestion. As has been stated before Tanks if built for such do not do huge swaths of damage. They are however rather useful at breaking up mobs and controlling crowds. They're a bit like heavy infantry or heavy cavalry in that they are meant to break up the enemy line. When I play my tank character in PVP, I'm not going out there to amass kill after kill, I'm going out there to create a major nuisance, to demoralize the enemy, to set up a form of crowd control and to split enemies up so the dps guys can pick them off. Sometimes this gambit pays off, and sometimes I get killed in less than a second after being feared or fire-runed or the like. The point is that my role as a tank in PVP is the same as it is in PVE. I have to dodge red circles in pvp or else I'm going to hurt pretty bad from a coldharbor/fire/oil siege. I need to avoid enemy mines. I have to look out for well packed zergs with pre set detonations. Its all the same thing to me whether I pvp or pve. Maybe I just think differently than you, but I'd really prefer you didn't make it an 'us vs. them' issue between pvp and pve crowd.

My concern is that people are going to put away their shields and pick up a 2hander or a bow if they implement this change. Reason: No one wants to play a character that takes 9 weeks to kill even the meekest of mobs, and also can't even take a hit from said mobs. There is a tradeoff when playing tanks in a game. What they are suggesting is that tanks will become DPS. If I'm going to be a dps, I'll just spec accordingly so I can nuke like the rest of them. So will a lot of other players. To be honest, this will also mean that Nightblade will be a much more fun class than DK and Templar. As a Nightblade I'll be able to still nuke people from the shadows, only now they wont' be able to block the second shot, and I can throw a 20% blur + some other set bonus based miss chance stuff so I can still avoid most of your attacks before poofing off into the shadows again. I'm actually already finding that I'm playing my nightblade more the last couple days in large part because of their proposed changes. Adapt and overcome? Maybe. All this will lead to is people crying that nightblade is unfair. Then it'll be the next thing and the next thing.

They need a holistic approach. Maybe they have one, but I honestly think if they'd just build in the soft caps again the problem could be solved. Imagine for a moment your pretty standard DK Dunmer build. DK gets some pretty aggressive and amazing bonuses to fire damage that no one else gets, and Dunmer gets 6% bonus Stamina, 9% bonus Magicka, and 7% bonus Fire damage. Stack on top of this the bonus elemental and spell damage from the champion system and NOTHING can hit harder with fire (the already highest damaging magic) than this exact build. With Soft Caps, the dunmer would achieve the limit wall faster than others, but it would allow other builds/races a chance to achieve the same (or samey enough within .05%) results. On another forum @Deltia of all people is complaining about the Champion system. I don't think its the Champion System itself that he has a problem with (maybe it is though I won't speak for him) but the soft cap issue. I've heard him speak about soft caps before so I know he agrees with me there. The only reason Champion system is a problem is that there is no soft caps. No soft caps to Stamina Regen. No soft caps to Magicka regen. No soft caps to cost reductions. No Soft Caps to Armor bonuses. No soft caps to bonus fire damage, bonus spell damage. The list goes on. Because of this certain builds will ALWAYS out perform. Compare two DPS fire mage characters. Argonian DK vs. Dunmer DK. The Argonian has no bonus magicka and the Dunmer has 9% bonus magicka and 7% bonus fire damage. That is a SIGNIFICANT advantage right off the bat which can not be caught up with, all things being equal. The Champion System will not be the only problem though. Enchantments, Gear, New Skill Line Passives all present the possibility of creating even more gross inequities. There is a reason I dislike gear in MMO's, and it is this compounding effect. STO balance was ruined for instance over these kinds of changes. The only remote solution to their balance problems is to bring back the Soft Caps. Hopefully they know how.

Personofsecrets

Thank you dodge_hopper. someone has to bring together the pve & pvp issues into the same issue and you did a great job.

Personofsecrets

PBpsy wrote: »

The fun part is that they are trying to spin this Blocking nerf as a PVE issue when it is clearly intended to remove the Block cast PVP meta. The same way the dynamic ultimate generation was removed because of the batsworm/negate/standard,/out of combat healing springs zerg meta. N
Nothing else.Anyone that is buying this crap is either insane or full of it.

It is truly bizarre that tankier builds were a reason stated for ultimate generation change. Without those changes, people might be pushing 25k dps now on the regular, but tanks ultimate are still not super relevant and nor were they hard to generate quickly in the past. They could have just left it at "we don't want spam healing springs" and it would have made more sense.

I think they already decided what they wanted to do and then generated or even fabricated a reason to justify the change they wanted.

Personofsecrets

Komma wrote: »

We have one tank in our guild. He hardly plays anymore so we have had several people step up and make tank alts. That should tell you how needed tanks are right now. I dont think this will help make tanking more enjoyable but it may get you to bring multiple tanks on raids.

One of the main reasons imo why people dont play tanks is that for most raids people only take one tank since this game is all about speed and dps. Why would someone want to play a tank and rarely get to go on trials runs because they already have a guild tank? We didnt have anyone making tanks because we had one and when he stopped playing that changed.

Maybe now people will be forced to have a second tank. When the first tank gets low on stamina the second tank steps in. People need to open their minds to new ways to play. There is more than one way to accomplish a mission. Dont be so narrow minded.

This is possible, there could be a need for multiple tanks if this change sees the light of day. I think that they developers already understood that a multi-tank strategy could be used though and the announced change to how taunt timers will work, I think, indicates that they don't necessarily want there to be more tanks used than the current number.

Beleron

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Beleron wrote: »

The problem is. They removed it and say well buffing other stuff, they balanced out the need for perma block.
ok, ok. Main issue. GIVE US MORE OPTIONS INSTEAD OF BLOCKING. You say you have class diversity?
Ok give a dk the option besides green dragons blood and block spam. Name one that doesn't tank that way.
Fact is all classes and certain tank skills that are needed, far better then others, and block overall is too good, so it was nerfed, but instead, we need more options. We have dodge, and evade.... can we not make them more NOTEWORTHY.

Again... People forgetting not every tank is a DK!! Templars are amazing tanks right now but with this change DKs will have the advantage again since they can cast earthen heart skills to restore stamina and use ultimates to restore resources.

was more of an example, just didnt want to type for every class and dk was first to come to mind lol.

Emma_Overload

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Answer: Hardened Ward. Also before 1.6 you could wear bound armor which was essentially getting heavy armor for free. My Sorc was built for doing dps, and by slotting these two things in 1.5 it was one of the most beast tanks I had. Throw in Boundless Storm for good measure and you have an amazing agro magnet that won't ever die... all without using stamina. You can still do this to some extent. There is a reason that some of the best sorcerers in the game are unkillable, can escape if they even do get hurt, and hit you like a truck unless you're sporting a ton of Nirncrux (and even then they can pack a wallop).

To all of you guys in the PVE crowd who are saying 'we're not with you guys in pvp-land, I really don't understand your reasoning'. Either its a bad mechanic or it is not. Fighting other players is like fighting Bosses in a dungeon (or often worse). I recognize the statement you are making that the complaint about block casting comes from PVP-land. My point is it doesn't mean that it is a good suggestion. As has been stated before Tanks if built for such do not do huge swaths of damage. They are however rather useful at breaking up mobs and controlling crowds. They're a bit like heavy infantry or heavy cavalry in that they are meant to break up the enemy line. When I play my tank character in PVP, I'm not going out there to amass kill after kill, I'm going out there to create a major nuisance, to demoralize the enemy, to set up a form of crowd control and to split enemies up so the dps guys can pick them off. Sometimes this gambit pays off, and sometimes I get killed in less than a second after being feared or fire-runed or the like. The point is that my role as a tank in PVP is the same as it is in PVE. I have to dodge red circles in pvp or else I'm going to hurt pretty bad from a coldharbor/fire/oil siege. I need to avoid enemy mines. I have to look out for well packed zergs with pre set detonations. Its all the same thing to me whether I pvp or pve. Maybe I just think differently than you, but I'd really prefer you didn't make it an 'us vs. them' issue between pvp and pve crowd.

My concern is that people are going to put away their shields and pick up a 2hander or a bow if they implement this change. Reason: No one wants to play a character that takes 9 weeks to kill even the meekest of mobs, and also can't even take a hit from said mobs. There is a tradeoff when playing tanks in a game. What they are suggesting is that tanks will become DPS. If I'm going to be a dps, I'll just spec accordingly so I can nuke like the rest of them. So will a lot of other players. To be honest, this will also mean that Nightblade will be a much more fun class than DK and Templar. As a Nightblade I'll be able to still nuke people from the shadows, only now they wont' be able to block the second shot, and I can throw a 20% blur + some other set bonus based miss chance stuff so I can still avoid most of your attacks before poofing off into the shadows again. I'm actually already finding that I'm playing my nightblade more the last couple days in large part because of their proposed changes. Adapt and overcome? Maybe. All this will lead to is people crying that nightblade is unfair. Then it'll be the next thing and the next thing.

They need a holistic approach. Maybe they have one, but I honestly think if they'd just build in the soft caps again the problem could be solved. Imagine for a moment your pretty standard DK Dunmer build. DK gets some pretty aggressive and amazing bonuses to fire damage that no one else gets, and Dunmer gets 6% bonus Stamina, 9% bonus Magicka, and 7% bonus Fire damage. Stack on top of this the bonus elemental and spell damage from the champion system and NOTHING can hit harder with fire (the already highest damaging magic) than this exact build. With Soft Caps, the dunmer would achieve the limit wall faster than others, but it would allow other builds/races a chance to achieve the same (or samey enough within .05%) results. On another forum @Deltia of all people is complaining about the Champion system. I don't think its the Champion System itself that he has a problem with (maybe it is though I won't speak for him) but the soft cap issue. I've heard him speak about soft caps before so I know he agrees with me there. The only reason Champion system is a problem is that there is no soft caps. No soft caps to Stamina Regen. No soft caps to Magicka regen. No soft caps to cost reductions. No Soft Caps to Armor bonuses. No soft caps to bonus fire damage, bonus spell damage. The list goes on. Because of this certain builds will ALWAYS out perform. Compare two DPS fire mage characters. Argonian DK vs. Dunmer DK. The Argonian has no bonus magicka and the Dunmer has 9% bonus magicka and 7% bonus fire damage. That is a SIGNIFICANT advantage right off the bat which can not be caught up with, all things being equal. The Champion System will not be the only problem though. Enchantments, Gear, New Skill Line Passives all present the possibility of creating even more gross inequities. There is a reason I dislike gear in MMO's, and it is this compounding effect. STO balance was ruined for instance over these kinds of changes. The only remote solution to their balance problems is to bring back the Soft Caps. Hopefully they know how.

No to all of this. Soft caps were a straitjacket that stifled theorycrafters and made builds boring and weak. What is the point of a Dunmer or Imperial's juicy passives if just anybody can make an equivalent build? Now these choices actually MATTER, which is why you hear so many people begging for race changes.

Bringing back soft caps would short-circuit the Champion System and totally defeat its purpose: to incentivize the player to keep playing with the promise of increasing POWER. If you put some kind artificial limit on that power gain, you kill the incentive, and many people will be demoralized by all the time they wasted and just quit.

Plaid13ub17_ESO

Komma wrote: »

We have one tank in our guild. He hardly plays anymore so we have had several people step up and make tank alts. That should tell you how needed tanks are right now. I dont think this will help make tanking more enjoyable but it may get you to bring multiple tanks on raids.

One of the main reasons imo why people dont play tanks is that for most raids people only take one tank since this game is all about speed and dps. Why would someone want to play a tank and rarely get to go on trials runs because they already have a guild tank? We didnt have anyone making tanks because we had one and when he stopped playing that changed.

Maybe now people will be forced to have a second tank. When the first tank gets low on stamina the second tank steps in. People need to open their minds to new ways to play. There is more than one way to accomplish a mission. Dont be so narrow minded.

Yeah forced to have a second tank because the first tanks ability to do its job has become impossible. This is not the answer that is for sure. I love the idea of needing multiple tanks in raids 3-4 would be great but just nerfing tanks down is the worst possible way to have this happen.

PBpsy

Personofsecrets wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

The fun part is that they are trying to spin this Blocking nerf as a PVE issue when it is clearly intended to remove the Block cast PVP meta. The same way the dynamic ultimate generation was removed because of the batsworm/negate/standard,/out of combat healing springs zerg meta. N
Nothing else.Anyone that is buying this crap is either insane or full of it.

It is truly bizarre that tankier builds were a reason stated for ultimate generation change. Without those changes, people might be pushing 25k dps now on the regular, but tanks ultimate are still not super relevant and nor were they hard to generate quickly in the past. They could have just left it at "we don't want spam healing springs" and it would have made more sense.

I think they already decided what they wanted to do and then generated or even fabricated a reason to justify the change they wanted.

It may be the way you interpret it. What I think happened is that they removed dynamic ulti then buffed the crap out of DPS by way of soft cap removal, CPs and weapon/spell power. On my main magicka NB the class that was probably most touched by the ulti changes that was not an actually a power nerf.

Now It feels that I am doing around 50% more damage than before even if it is on the lower side of the magicka build dps. However most of the utility it had before was removed. Before the change the tank in my group did not need to so much ultimate because I would have a high up time on the veil under his*** and so did the templar on the Novas.I also used quite a bit of Rings of preservation while doing my share of dps even if usually not the max I could have done. Now the only thing i do is DPS and as all decent magicka dps in the game : stack dots buff myself with structured entropy with and fire meteors the only useful Ultimate in game.

My tank had enough ulti also although it did use the WW ulti.I only needed to use an ulti for emergencies and id not help much in other situation. if they would have actually wanted to give more ulti to Tnak they should have given them more ultimate for blocking very strong hits.

Personofsecrets

PBpsy wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

The fun part is that they are trying to spin this Blocking nerf as a PVE issue when it is clearly intended to remove the Block cast PVP meta. The same way the dynamic ultimate generation was removed because of the batsworm/negate/standard,/out of combat healing springs zerg meta. N
Nothing else.Anyone that is buying this crap is either insane or full of it.

It is truly bizarre that tankier builds were a reason stated for ultimate generation change. Without those changes, people might be pushing 25k dps now on the regular, but tanks ultimate are still not super relevant and nor were they hard to generate quickly in the past. They could have just left it at "we don't want spam healing springs" and it would have made more sense.

I think they already decided what they wanted to do and then generated or even fabricated a reason to justify the change they wanted.

It may be the way you interpret it. What I think happened is that they removed dynamic ulti then buffed the crap out of DPS by way of soft cap removal, CPs and weapon/spell power. On my main magicka NB the class that was probably most touched by the ulti changes that was not an actually a power nerf.

Now It feels that I am doing around 50% more damage than before even if it is on the lower side of the magicka build dps. However most of the utility it had before was removed. Before the change the tank in my group did not need to so much ultimate because I would have a high up time on the veil under his*** and so did the templar on the Novas.I also used quite a bit of Rings of preservation while doing my share of dps even if usually not the max I could have done. Now the only thing i do is DPS and as all decent magicka dps in the game : stack dots buff myself with structured entropy with and fire meteors the only useful Ultimate in game.

My tank had enough ulti also although it did use the WW ulti.I only needed to use an ulti for emergencies and id not help much in other situation. if they would have actually wanted to give more ulti to Tnak they should have given them more ultimate for blocking very strong hits.

you are right, there is way more dps nowadays and that is even without as many ultis and one reason for that is the stacking of things past what used to be soft caps. You are also right that they could have gave tanks more ulti regen in some simpler way (like how they changed deep slash).

I'm not sure if the developers intended to buff dps, especially after listening to some of the old shows, but now we have the current situation with dps even allowing the skipping of the serpent's image mechanic.

S1ipperyJim

Nifty2g wrote: »

Can you please, take the PvP talk out of here, it's about PvE end game content which will be made unable to play, you will get one shot if you do not block or have stamina to block. Nothing will be able to work around this

Potions, casting earthern heart abilities for DKs, casting ultimates and several other methods will still work to generate stamina

Shunravi

reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Can you please, take the PvP talk out of here, it's about PvE end game content which will be made unable to play, you will get one shot if you do not block or have stamina to block. Nothing will be able to work around this

Potions, casting earthern heart abilities for DKs, casting ultimates and several other methods will still work to generate stamina

Yay for DKs

Joy_Division

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

A. Now do sanctum in light armor and realize that different strategies are good for different instances.
B. Now understand that getting light armor to work as a tank isn't unheard of and especially not in vdsa where all roles are pushing their boundaries.
C. Who gets to decide what 'should' and 'should' not be possible is interesting question. Should players be able to solo regular dsa? Well, in my narrow minded experience of such a feet no. Therefore Vigor and Steel Tornado must be removed from he game.

A. This is not a "strategy." This is some random DPS putting a sword and shield without the requisite skills and successfully doing endgame content that did not challenge me as a tank.

B. Again, this is not a thought out build. This is Martial Knowledge + spellpower + nothing invested in block. This isn't pushing boundaries. This is amateur hour with a completely inappropriate build succeeding at endgame content.

C. This depends on how much of a challenge you want and how much pride you have in what it is that you do. Personally I would feel pointless if some novice could adequately and successfully perform my alleged specialization with zero preparation.

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Did you tank it with a pug group of randomly picked players or a specially selected team of people you always play with, long term players with everything maxed out because you had to take someone to make sure you dont die, because that would disprove what you said, but if you would take pro DPSes and pro healer you can now tell left and right "tanked dsa in light armor, too easy"?

Nope. None of the other 3 players have successfully completed VDSA. Nothing maxed out about them; in fact one is a V7.

The Uninvited wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Was this before or after the light armour nerf?

After. I did this last week. I also did it when 1.6 first came out. I also did it in 1.5, but that was more difficult and died several times.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Answer: Hardened Ward. Also before 1.6 you could wear bound armor which was essentially getting heavy armor for free. My Sorc was built for doing dps, and by slotting these two things in 1.5 it was one of the most beast tanks I had. Throw in Boundless Storm for good measure and you have an amazing agro magnet that won't ever die... all without using stamina. You can still do this to some extent. There is a reason that some of the best sorcerers in the game are unkillable, can escape if they even do get hurt, and hit you like a truck unless you're sporting a ton of Nirncrux (and even then they can pack a wallop).

No, that's not the answer. Part of it, for sure, but in no way can it be boiled down to a single skill I did not even keep 100% uptime on. If you are looking for the greatest factor, it is the fact that I help up block 95% of the time and the monsters could not deplete my resources despite having a completely inappropriate build for the task at hand.

----

I should add that I did not even use tri-pots. The run of the mill generic stam pots that drop from mobs are the only ones I used.

You are all looking for mitigating factors that might somehow explain why I was able to do what I did, but the answer is right there for all to see: the content is too easy, the mechanics are not demanding, and players are too strong.

I find it paradoxical that the many tanks in this thread are busy defending their area of expertise, some passionately so, yet are content to allow the state of affairs that makes their expertise superfluous for most of the game's content. If I were a tank, I would be insulted that a DPS player with trash gear who doesn't know what they are doing could fulfill my role. What exactly are you defending? Are you so intoxicated with the power you possess from the mechanics in the game vis-a-vis the monsters such that you can do VDSA, what is supposed to be the game's most difficult content, that you could spend more time DPSing and Healing than actually tanking?

I should add the sorry state of affairs applies to and is even worse when it comes to healing. My same DPS sorc, without a single part of the build dedicated to healing whatsoever, slapped on a restoration staff and healed Veteran City of Ash with two people who never did the dungeon (i.e. they didn't know the fights at all). Healers is this game are now expected to use a destruction staff and contribute a significant amount of DPS. I'm all fine for role and build diversity and I agree with Duke that a design that allows players to only stick to their assigned role in the Holy Trinity of tank/dps/heals is utter trash. But the fact of the matter is that ESO at present is not demanding at all of healers. My "main" is - err was - a healer and I find it pointless to even advertise myself as one because any magicka based templar using healing springs can do all the content in the game. Hell, on the last boss in VDSA you don't even need a restoration staff or even to heal for that matter outside the suck in phase. I for one, would prefer that ZoS take off the training wheels and present content that actually demands my alleged expertise.

Dagoth_Rac

DDuke wrote: »

Funny. I'm actually in the guild with current world top 2-3 scores in every trial in game, and we've multiple times held world record ones.

So because the 2 or 3 best tanks in the world will be able to handle this change, we should ruin the PvE tanking experience for everyone else?

SickDuck

Quick let's post something before this thread gets closed because reaching the critical mass in nonsense. Although I hope @ZOS is reading this and having fun.

First of all IMHO this is the greatest change that can happen in the next major patch! (To hell with Imperial City, who cares...) Second, it is the best thing to happen in PvE as it's dumb and easy and boring at the moment. At least some people now need to develop some skills, not just faceroll everything. I'm more afraid of the possible difficulty nerf following this change because of the qq from people not willing to put in the effort, than the actual change itself. Oh, and screw PvP, who cares about that? All of the following addressed to people moaning about PvE relevance of this change.

Here are some thoughts what could be changed in our mindsets.

You will not have zero stamina regeneration
Nope, you just need to get out of block to get more stamina. Hiding behind a shield all day does not make you a hero. It makes you a coward.

Nobody here knows the exact effect yet
Nobody here tried. Nobody here knows all the skill and gear changes responding to this change of mechanics. And there's still PTS phase to try out and come up with more sophisticated proofs - which could lead to additional tuning. I remember all the "OMG Sorcs are dead1!!" threads before 1.6 went live. Then during PTS some came up with numbers that sorcs are a'right. They were pretty much crucified in these same forums. Few months later... anyone thinks sorcs need more buffing right now? So I'm thinking... maybe tanks are gonna be a'right too.

Blocking is OP
Currently blocking is pretty much the most effective defensive skill. It gives immunity to lot of effects. It can make the attacker vulnerable. It has more damage mitigation than anything else in the game! It is sustainable and requires next to none effort at the moment. Actually I was thinking it's a secret agreement between ZOS and major mouse manufacturers as in this game you pretty much need to sellotape the right button down. On the other hand it is unfair cause not all builds can benefit from it equally - some can use it all the times without really sacrificing anything, while others may not be able to use it.

There are lot of options to manage stamina
Even if you need to block all the times there are ways to get back stamina. I would not be surprised if the list grew after this change.
To get back stamina: Constitution (Heavy Armor), Evil Hunter, Whirling Blades (I know it's crp, but still...), Consuming Trap (and it's a DOT too ), heavy attacks with a weapon, activating synergies, drinking potions, Master's Restoration Staff, item sets
To help stamina management: CS passives, jewellery enchants, item sets
To help blocking: Bracing (Heavy Armor), 1h+s passives, CS passives, jewellery enchants
Class specific: Siphoning for NBs, Battle Roar & Helping Hands for DKs... Not all classes have the same ability to gain back stamina, but it's not the only option to survive. Other classes have great options to survive deadly blows by other means.
Pretty sure I've missed a few other options too.

Not all hits are one-hits
You don't need to block all the time. Tanks usually have above average HP. Maybe with this change tanks need to get away from full magicka (or stamina!) builds and add back a little more meat on their bones. With proper health, defense and mitigation you don't get constant deadly hits. Healers get more chance to do their jobs. Currently the definition of a healer is "a person who stops DPS for a few seconds when the others screw it up a bit". Daily gold runs can be done without a dedicated healer. 12 man trials can be done with a single healer. In vDSA the healer needs to DPS and/or tank to get a good score. Maybe now they'll have to focus more on healing and support, giving more meaning to the role.

Damage can be mitigated in other ways
Again there are lot of skills that can help survival without the need of stamina. Damage shields, damage debuffs, heals, dodge chance buffs, even increased mobility skills. Lot of skills have defensive morphs, but for some reason the offensive version is preferred. Lot of tanks can increase their defense just by shifting their focus towards skills and gear maximizing defense. Luckily with v16 around all need to remake their gear anyway.

Tanks need a tanky build
Currently they can be the DPS with occasional taunt (worse case taunts standing in one place and just blocking). 10k stamina, 30k magicka tanks can be a thing in the past. You can't change a stamina DPS to a magicka DPS build just by changing gear. Yet you can change a full tank to a full DPS build by the same. Tanks will need a bit more dedication, which might require putting some stats on stamina and health. May need to get some points off the offensive constellations and put to defensive ones, or focus on unlocking defensive passive bonuses. May need to use non-DPS traits and enchants (like Defending trait or the damage shield enchants). Of course everyone needs to adjust their play style a bit but that's just good ol' L2P.

A group of people need to play together
Many times I feel groups are just bunch of people doing their individual things independently and just being the same place by coincidence. One example is templars throwing shards for stamina DPS... or a single member using Elemental Drain for every one's benefit. There are lot of others, yet people don't really try to build their skills to harmonise with others. Even these trivial examples are not followed always. Healers can use lot of support skills if they have to, yet they more likely to focus on doing some DPS or just use offensive buffs.

Templars are already "THE" Healers
When you're saying this will make templars the mandatory healers who are you kidding? It's extremely rare to find a non-templar dedicated healer. Other classes can heal but usually they choose not to. It is already pretty mandatory to have Blazing Spears with stamina DDs around. Not saying that it's a good thing but it's already a thing, that won't be different after this change. Like most tanks are DKs... well it's easier to find a non-DK tank (maybe because tanking nowadays is a joke? - it's much harder to find one in top end-game parties) than a non-templar healer.

People need to learn to live without constant blocking
It's pretty hard to die on a healer with 1h+s and 20k hp (remember this is about PvE). Now it will be more fun. Block-casters are still get less damage than medium armor meele DPSers because of perma-blocking. Stamina DDs already learnt to play without it, so can you.


Disclaimer: I am a write-only poster, reflecting my opinion with this post. When answering it keep in mind that I'm too lazy to read updates or get in a debate with you. Also I have a weird imagination - while reading I'm replacing the word "you" with your female parent in any replies addressing me.

Halke

SickDuck wrote: »

Templars are already "THE" Healers
When you're saying this will make templars the mandatory healers who are you kidding? It's extremely rare to find a non-templar dedicated healer. Other classes can heal but usually they choose not to. It is already pretty mandatory to have Blazing Spears with stamina DDs around. Not saying that it's a good thing but it's already a thing, that won't be different after this change. Like most tanks are DKs... well it's easier to find a non-DK tank (maybe because tanking nowadays is a joke? - it's much harder to find one in top end-game parties) than a non-templar healer.

[...]

Disclaimer: I am a write-only poster, reflecting my opinion with this post. When answering it keep in mind that I'm too lazy to read updates or get in a debate with you. Also I have a weird imagination - while reading I'm replacing the word "you" with your female parent in any replies addressing me.

I am a NB healer. My DPS will sometime joke about wanting spears, but with a master resto they tend to be just fine. My fave tanks right now, both NBs as well. Run with a sorc tank to, and love every second of it. Ran with a few DK healers as well and sorc healers, those guys hit hard with their heals.

TL:DR - Rare for you maybe, but that doesn't mean it is actually the case.

Plaid13ub17_ESO

SickDuck wrote: »

Quick let's post something before this thread gets closed because reaching the critical mass in nonsense. Although I hope @ZOS is reading this and having fun.

First of all IMHO this is the greatest change that can happen in the next major patch! (To hell with Imperial City, who cares...) Second, it is the best thing to happen in PvE as it's dumb and easy and boring at the moment. At least some people now need to develop some skills, not just faceroll everything. I'm more afraid of the possible difficulty nerf following this change because of the qq from people not willing to put in the effort, than the actual change itself. Oh, and screw PvP, who cares about that? All of the following addressed to people moaning about PvE relevance of this change.

Here are some thoughts what could be changed in our mindsets.

You will not have zero stamina regeneration
Nope, you just need to get out of block to get more stamina. Hiding behind a shield all day does not make you a hero. It makes you a coward.

Nobody here knows the exact effect yet
Nobody here tried. Nobody here knows all the skill and gear changes responding to this change of mechanics. And there's still PTS phase to try out and come up with more sophisticated proofs - which could lead to additional tuning. I remember all the "OMG Sorcs are dead1!!" threads before 1.6 went live. Then during PTS some came up with numbers that sorcs are a'right. They were pretty much crucified in these same forums. Few months later... anyone thinks sorcs need more buffing right now? So I'm thinking... maybe tanks are gonna be a'right too.

Blocking is OP
Currently blocking is pretty much the most effective defensive skill. It gives immunity to lot of effects. It can make the attacker vulnerable. It has more damage mitigation than anything else in the game! It is sustainable and requires next to none effort at the moment. Actually I was thinking it's a secret agreement between ZOS and major mouse manufacturers as in this game you pretty much need to sellotape the right button down. On the other hand it is unfair cause not all builds can benefit from it equally - some can use it all the times without really sacrificing anything, while others may not be able to use it.

There are lot of options to manage stamina
Even if you need to block all the times there are ways to get back stamina. I would not be surprised if the list grew after this change.
To get back stamina: Constitution (Heavy Armor), Evil Hunter, Whirling Blades (I know it's crp, but still...), Consuming Trap (and it's a DOT too ), heavy attacks with a weapon, activating synergies, drinking potions, Master's Restoration Staff, item sets
To help stamina management: CS passives, jewellery enchants, item sets
To help blocking: Bracing (Heavy Armor), 1h+s passives, CS passives, jewellery enchants
Class specific: Siphoning for NBs, Battle Roar & Helping Hands for DKs... Not all classes have the same ability to gain back stamina, but it's not the only option to survive. Other classes have great options to survive deadly blows by other means.
Pretty sure I've missed a few other options too.

Not all hits are one-hits
You don't need to block all the time. Tanks usually have above average HP. Maybe with this change tanks need to get away from full magicka (or stamina!) builds and add back a little more meat on their bones. With proper health, defense and mitigation you don't get constant deadly hits. Healers get more chance to do their jobs. Currently the definition of a healer is "a person who stops DPS for a few seconds when the others screw it up a bit". Daily gold runs can be done without a dedicated healer. 12 man trials can be done with a single healer. In vDSA the healer needs to DPS and/or tank to get a good score. Maybe now they'll have to focus more on healing and support, giving more meaning to the role.

Damage can be mitigated in other ways
Again there are lot of skills that can help survival without the need of stamina. Damage shields, damage debuffs, heals, dodge chance buffs, even increased mobility skills. Lot of skills have defensive morphs, but for some reason the offensive version is preferred. Lot of tanks can increase their defense just by shifting their focus towards skills and gear maximizing defense. Luckily with v16 around all need to remake their gear anyway.

Tanks need a tanky build
Currently they can be the DPS with occasional taunt (worse case taunts standing in one place and just blocking). 10k stamina, 30k magicka tanks can be a thing in the past. You can't change a stamina DPS to a magicka DPS build just by changing gear. Yet you can change a full tank to a full DPS build by the same. Tanks will need a bit more dedication, which might require putting some stats on stamina and health. May need to get some points off the offensive constellations and put to defensive ones, or focus on unlocking defensive passive bonuses. May need to use non-DPS traits and enchants (like Defending trait or the damage shield enchants). Of course everyone needs to adjust their play style a bit but that's just good ol' L2P.

A group of people need to play together
Many times I feel groups are just bunch of people doing their individual things independently and just being the same place by coincidence. One example is templars throwing shards for stamina DPS... or a single member using Elemental Drain for every one's benefit. There are lot of others, yet people don't really try to build their skills to harmonise with others. Even these trivial examples are not followed always. Healers can use lot of support skills if they have to, yet they more likely to focus on doing some DPS or just use offensive buffs.

Templars are already "THE" Healers
When you're saying this will make templars the mandatory healers who are you kidding? It's extremely rare to find a non-templar dedicated healer. Other classes can heal but usually they choose not to. It is already pretty mandatory to have Blazing Spears with stamina DDs around. Not saying that it's a good thing but it's already a thing, that won't be different after this change. Like most tanks are DKs... well it's easier to find a non-DK tank (maybe because tanking nowadays is a joke? - it's much harder to find one in top end-game parties) than a non-templar healer.

People need to learn to live without constant blocking
It's pretty hard to die on a healer with 1h+s and 20k hp (remember this is about PvE). Now it will be more fun. Block-casters are still get less damage than medium armor meele DPSers because of perma-blocking. Stamina DDs already learnt to play without it, so can you.


Disclaimer: I am a write-only poster, reflecting my opinion with this post. When answering it keep in mind that I'm too lazy to read updates or get in a debate with you. Also I have a weird imagination - while reading I'm replacing the word "you" with your female parent in any replies addressing me.

You clearly do not play a tank. If you have tanked it was not in trials. The problem with this change isnt tanking one boss with easy to predict hits. It is when you have to tank multiple hard hitting mobs. You taunt 3-4 hard hitting mobs a good chunk of your stam is gone then they are hitting you and if you let block drop at all you get knocked down or your health is half gone. That one heavy attack you get in wont do much of anything to return stam.

The fact that you mentioned constitution the heavy armor passive shows me and anyone else that has played a tank that you do not. This passive returns so little you will never even notice it. Does it even work? Its hard to say.

Evil hunter? thats a joke right? This is good for a bit of dps if you are AOEing a ton and hitting lots of mobs. How often do you see tanks aoeing? Almost never because if they are tanking very hard stuff they dont have a skill slot left on the bar for an aoe. Not to mention it costs a lot of stam just to cast so you will never earn back what it costs to get it up as a tank.

Yep a tank can put a shield up.... But that shield is gone in one hit from any hard hitting mob. And they cost a ton of magicka that tanks do not have to spare. And they will need block cost reduction stuff after this so no magicka cost reduction glyphs.. So yeah you can cast your shield 3 times maybe then you are out of magicka and dont have any left for important buffs.

Honestly people if you are only a pvp player or you dont tank end game content this thread is not for you. Yes the blocking issue in pvp needs a fix but zero stam regen while blocking in pve is not the answer. Keep in mind stam regens in ticks every two seconds what if you have to block right when that tick comes up several times in a row even if you do time everything perfect and you are only fighting one mob. Sure a DK tank can cast earthen heart skills to regen magicka. and a NB tank can use siphoning to return it. But what about templar and sorc tanks?

TagaParti

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

Personofsecrets

Joy_Division wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

A. Now do sanctum in light armor and realize that different strategies are good for different instances.
B. Now understand that getting light armor to work as a tank isn't unheard of and especially not in vdsa where all roles are pushing their boundaries.
C. Who gets to decide what 'should' and 'should' not be possible is interesting question. Should players be able to solo regular dsa? Well, in my narrow minded experience of such a feet no. Therefore Vigor and Steel Tornado must be removed from he game.

A. This is not a "strategy." This is some random DPS putting a sword and shield without the requisite skills and successfully doing endgame content that did not challenge me as a tank.

B. Again, this is not a thought out build. This is Martial Knowledge + spellpower + nothing invested in block. This isn't pushing boundaries. This is amateur hour with a completely inappropriate build succeeding at endgame content.

C. This depends on how much of a challenge you want and how much pride you have in what it is that you do. Personally I would feel pointless if some novice could adequately and successfully perform my alleged specialization with zero preparation.

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Did you tank it with a pug group of randomly picked players or a specially selected team of people you always play with, long term players with everything maxed out because you had to take someone to make sure you dont die, because that would disprove what you said, but if you would take pro DPSes and pro healer you can now tell left and right "tanked dsa in light armor, too easy"?

Nope. None of the other 3 players have successfully completed VDSA. Nothing maxed out about them; in fact one is a V7.

The Uninvited wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Was this before or after the light armour nerf?

After. I did this last week. I also did it when 1.6 first came out. I also did it in 1.5, but that was more difficult and died several times.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Answer: Hardened Ward. Also before 1.6 you could wear bound armor which was essentially getting heavy armor for free. My Sorc was built for doing dps, and by slotting these two things in 1.5 it was one of the most beast tanks I had. Throw in Boundless Storm for good measure and you have an amazing agro magnet that won't ever die... all without using stamina. You can still do this to some extent. There is a reason that some of the best sorcerers in the game are unkillable, can escape if they even do get hurt, and hit you like a truck unless you're sporting a ton of Nirncrux (and even then they can pack a wallop).

No, that's not the answer. Part of it, for sure, but in no way can it be boiled down to a single skill I did not even keep 100% uptime on. If you are looking for the greatest factor, it is the fact that I help up block 95% of the time and the monsters could not deplete my resources despite having a completely inappropriate build for the task at hand.

----

I should add that I did not even use tri-pots. The run of the mill generic stam pots that drop from mobs are the only ones I used.

You are all looking for mitigating factors that might somehow explain why I was able to do what I did, but the answer is right there for all to see: the content is too easy, the mechanics are not demanding, and players are too strong.

I find it paradoxical that the many tanks in this thread are busy defending their area of expertise, some passionately so, yet are content to allow the state of affairs that makes their expertise superfluous for most of the game's content. If I were a tank, I would be insulted that a DPS player with trash gear who doesn't know what they are doing could fulfill my role. What exactly are you defending? Are you so intoxicated with the power you possess from the mechanics in the game vis-a-vis the monsters such that you can do VDSA, what is supposed to be the game's most difficult content, that you could spend more time DPSing and Healing than actually tanking?

I should add the sorry state of affairs applies to and is even worse when it comes to healing. My same DPS sorc, without a single part of the build dedicated to healing whatsoever, slapped on a restoration staff and healed Veteran City of Ash with two people who never did the dungeon (i.e. they didn't know the fights at all). Healers is this game are now expected to use a destruction staff and contribute a significant amount of DPS. I'm all fine for role and build diversity and I agree with Duke that a design that allows players to only stick to their assigned role in the Holy Trinity of tank/dps/heals is utter trash. But the fact of the matter is that ESO at present is not demanding at all of healers. My "main" is - err was - a healer and I find it pointless to even advertise myself as one because any magicka based templar using healing springs can do all the content in the game. Hell, on the last boss in VDSA you don't even need a restoration staff or even to heal for that matter outside the suck in phase. I for one, would prefer that ZoS take off the training wheels and present content that actually demands my alleged expertise.

A. You are wrong. What you described is indeed a strategy. You chose to deal more DPS as the groups tank rather than do something such as pull with chains or heal the group. What you did speaks not necessarily on how tanking is easy as it shows what can happen to an instance when more dps is brought to a fight. What happens when we have progressed enough to the point that tanks aren't brought to VDSA period. Does that still necessarily show how easy it is to tank?

B. Again, try doing what you did in Sanctum Ophidia. You might as well say that you tanked banished cells when you talk about VDSA. Just because you didn't think through your build doesn't mean that tanks don't have to think through their builds. Quite a bit of theory crafting has gone into tanking which you admit to not being knowledgeable of.

C. There is challenge and pride in current tanking just as I bet there was challenge and pride in the Solo DSA run that was posted on the forums. I'm considerate towards whatever challenge people find in this game rather than all but the ones that I don't understand. Oh wait, your a sorcerer with broken shields. Nerf please. Just kidding.

Wow, I compared what you did to finishing a veteran dungeon and then I read about how you did that very same thing which lead you to a conclusion about healing in the game.

Is ESO easy? Sure, it can be. Maybe the solution to changing the game's difficulty doesn't lie in fixing whatever you were able to do in a sob-optimal

Personofsecrets

TagaParti wrote: »

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

dodgehopper_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

The thing I find interesting about this, is that you don't see anyone hitting her with Fear in those blobs of enemies attacking her. Give me a video of that. I'm not saying they would have won, but it would have looked a bit different I dare say, and all those videos show is the power of Battle Roar, a passive. Also, why didn't anyone use a siege weapon on her in that arrangement. In the 1v1 you've got two tanks duking it out, hardly a comparison of why blocking is OP. There are lots of MMO's where in pvp I've had exactly these kinds of battles including ESO. The last game I played (Star Trek Online) I had many memorable duels with friends there and they went down a lot like this. *** for tat, neck and neck, moments where it looked like one guy would when, then a reversal and on it went for an hour. If you pit two of the right kinds of enemies against one another, this is the kind of thing you will get. Why be amazed?

Rinmaethodain

^

Im just gonna say what i have in my signature already. Leave PVP out of this. Do whatever you want in PVP but stay away from PVE. Dont make your PVP qq rants and whines affect PVE and players who dont care about your epnises, emperor scores and tiles of being "unkillable"

"Blocking is OP
Currently blocking is pretty much the most effective defensive skill. It gives immunity to lot of effects. It can make the attacker vulnerable. It has more damage mitigation than anything else in the game! It is sustainable and requires next to none effort at the moment. Actually I was thinking it's a secret agreement between ZOS and major mouse manufacturers as in this game you pretty much need to sellotape the right button down. On the other hand it is unfair cause not all builds can benefit from it equally - some can use it all the times without really sacrificing anything, while others may not be able to use it."

Wow, using a shield, that is made to defend yourself, is most effective defensive skill? You dont say Sherlock? Thats the point of big bulky shield that can take all the bashing.

THATS the point of shield, to defend user in most effective way. He could give it up to run with two knifes but then he starts complaining he cant defend himself properly. Surprise, mash a hammer into someone holding a knife and a shield. Interpret results by yourself.

Not all builds can benefit from shield equality? Once again, you dont say? You want equality? Then why we have racial passives, class specific skills? To magnify some of the character traits while leaving other. Thats how you specialise.
Do i see a bit of jealousy and envy in your post? "Its unfair that not every build can benefit from it equally"? You find it unfair that not everyone, a slim light mage and bulky knight, wont block with shield exactly same good? So because of that you want to make sure that blocking with shield - tanking - will suck equally for everyone, just because you might have a bad experience with shield in the past? Way to go.

"Blocking is OP
Currently blocking is pretty much the most effective defensive skill."

Go back and read that again. Seriosly? Its just silly. Its like you would complain that bow is op because it can attack in long range (hurr durr its a bow its meant to shoot arrows but whatever) or that dual wield daggers are attacking too fast (hurr durr light daggers, two hands stabby stabby fast, have you seen instructional videos of self defence and how fighting with a knife look? its fast, lot of stabbing but who cares).

Personofsecrets

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

The thing I find interesting about this, is that you don't see anyone hitting her with Fear in those blobs of enemies attacking her. Give me a video of that. I'm not saying they would have won, but it would have looked a bit different I dare say, and all those videos show is the power of Battle Roar, a passive. Also, why didn't anyone use a siege weapon on her in that arrangement. In the 1v1 you've got two tanks duking it out, hardly a comparison of why blocking is OP. There are lots of MMO's where in pvp I've had exactly these kinds of battles including ESO. The last game I played (Star Trek Online) I had many memorable duels with friends there and they went down a lot like this. *** for tat, neck and neck, moments where it looked like one guy would when, then a reversal and on it went for an hour. If you pit two of the right kinds of enemies against one another, this is the kind of thing you will get. Why be amazed?

It is strange that nobody was able to take the unkillable person out and it is especially strange when a single player can do it. I think the difference is that Sypher obviously knows how to deal with a tank when, obviously, the players who fought against the unkillable dragon knight didn't even know to run fear.

Though I realize that I chose one of the best pvp players to refute the idea of the unkillable tank, I can't help but imagine the unkillable tanks pulls are somewhat cherry picked. Either way, the unkillable tank is a myth, and even though players have to 'get good' at dodging greatswords and arrows, that logic doesn't apply to bringing down a player with a shield and heavy armor.

I did some VDSA and SO tonight. My team was doing some older strategies for VDSA because dps was low. I can't imagine the extra burden of re-shielding over and over, in order to regenerate stamina, while casting taunts, aoes, and calling out the strategy for the group to follow.

Likewise, in sanctum, the re-shielding is going to be a pain in the butt. I have the serpents heavy attacks and cleaves, magic bombs, mantikoras, and buff totems to pay attention to. I'm using a skill rotation, using synergies, and calling out players. I am anything but unoccupied and bored.

Right now tanking has the potential to be set back a year because some players complained about tanks purported non-interactive strategies or boredom and the developers believed them.

Tankqull

Personofsecrets wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

The thing I find interesting about this, is that you don't see anyone hitting her with Fear in those blobs of enemies attacking her. Give me a video of that. I'm not saying they would have won, but it would have looked a bit different I dare say, and all those videos show is the power of Battle Roar, a passive. Also, why didn't anyone use a siege weapon on her in that arrangement. In the 1v1 you've got two tanks duking it out, hardly a comparison of why blocking is OP. There are lots of MMO's where in pvp I've had exactly these kinds of battles including ESO. The last game I played (Star Trek Online) I had many memorable duels with friends there and they went down a lot like this. *** for tat, neck and neck, moments where it looked like one guy would when, then a reversal and on it went for an hour. If you pit two of the right kinds of enemies against one another, this is the kind of thing you will get. Why be amazed?

It is strange that nobody was able to take the unkillable person out and it is especially strange when a single player can do it. I think the difference is that Sypher obviously knows how to deal with a tank when, obviously, the players who fought against the unkillable dragon knight didn't even know to run fear.

Though I realize that I chose one of the best pvp players to refute the idea of the unkillable tank, I can't help but imagine the unkillable tanks pulls are somewhat cherry picked. Either way, the unkillable tank is a myth, and even though players have to 'get good' at dodging greatswords and arrows, that logic doesn't apply to bringing down a player with a shield and heavy armor.

I did some VDSA and SO tonight. My team was doing some older strategies for VDSA because dps was low. I can't imagine the extra burden of re-shielding over and over, in order to regenerate stamina, while casting taunts, aoes, and calling out the strategy for the group to follow.

Likewise, in sanctum, the re-shielding is going to be a pain in the butt. I have the serpents heavy attacks and cleaves, magic bombs, mantikoras, and buff totems to pay attention to. I'm using a skill rotation, using synergies, and calling out players. I am anything but unoccupied and bored.

Right now tanking has the potential to be set back a year because some players complained about tanks purported non-interactive strategies or boredom and the developers believed them.

his vid is from a time where all dots drained tons of stamina, thats not the case anymore... not denying his achievements though just saying. he used the optimal class for breaking this behavior and still needed nearly 5 minutes, while beeing one of the best (dk)duelers out there vs a player with a great ability set but not that awesome playerskills.

Personofsecrets

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

The thing I find interesting about this, is that you don't see anyone hitting her with Fear in those blobs of enemies attacking her. Give me a video of that. I'm not saying they would have won, but it would have looked a bit different I dare say, and all those videos show is the power of Battle Roar, a passive. Also, why didn't anyone use a siege weapon on her in that arrangement. In the 1v1 you've got two tanks duking it out, hardly a comparison of why blocking is OP. There are lots of MMO's where in pvp I've had exactly these kinds of battles including ESO. The last game I played (Star Trek Online) I had many memorable duels with friends there and they went down a lot like this. *** for tat, neck and neck, moments where it looked like one guy would when, then a reversal and on it went for an hour. If you pit two of the right kinds of enemies against one another, this is the kind of thing you will get. Why be amazed?

It is strange that nobody was able to take the unkillable person out and it is especially strange when a single player can do it. I think the difference is that Sypher obviously knows how to deal with a tank when, obviously, the players who fought against the unkillable dragon knight didn't even know to run fear.

Though I realize that I chose one of the best pvp players to refute the idea of the unkillable tank, I can't help but imagine the unkillable tanks pulls are somewhat cherry picked. Either way, the unkillable tank is a myth, and even though players have to 'get good' at dodging greatswords and arrows, that logic doesn't apply to bringing down a player with a shield and heavy armor.

I did some VDSA and SO tonight. My team was doing some older strategies for VDSA because dps was low. I can't imagine the extra burden of re-shielding over and over, in order to regenerate stamina, while casting taunts, aoes, and calling out the strategy for the group to follow.

Likewise, in sanctum, the re-shielding is going to be a pain in the butt. I have the serpents heavy attacks and cleaves, magic bombs, mantikoras, and buff totems to pay attention to. I'm using a skill rotation, using synergies, and calling out players. I am anything but unoccupied and bored.

Right now tanking has the potential to be set back a year because some players complained about tanks purported non-interactive strategies or boredom and the developers believed them.

his vid is from a time where all dots drained tons of stamina, thats not the case anymore... not denying his achievements though just saying. he used the optimal class for breaking this behavior and still needed nearly 5 minutes, while beeing one of the best (dk)duelers out there vs a player with a great ability set but not that awesome playerskills.

Thank you for the background information.

TagaParti

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

They are trying to nerf her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJzbQZmV7M

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

The thing I find interesting about this, is that you don't see anyone hitting her with Fear in those blobs of enemies attacking her. Give me a video of that. I'm not saying they would have won, but it would have looked a bit different I dare say, and all those videos show is the power of Battle Roar, a passive. Also, why didn't anyone use a siege weapon on her in that arrangement. In the 1v1 you've got two tanks duking it out, hardly a comparison of why blocking is OP. There are lots of MMO's where in pvp I've had exactly these kinds of battles including ESO. The last game I played (Star Trek Online) I had many memorable duels with friends there and they went down a lot like this. *** for tat, neck and neck, moments where it looked like one guy would when, then a reversal and on it went for an hour. If you pit two of the right kinds of enemies against one another, this is the kind of thing you will get. Why be amazed?

It is strange that nobody was able to take the unkillable person out and it is especially strange when a single player can do it. I think the difference is that Sypher obviously knows how to deal with a tank when, obviously, the players who fought against the unkillable dragon knight didn't even know to run fear.

Though I realize that I chose one of the best pvp players to refute the idea of the unkillable tank, I can't help but imagine the unkillable tanks pulls are somewhat cherry picked. Either way, the unkillable tank is a myth, and even though players have to 'get good' at dodging greatswords and arrows, that logic doesn't apply to bringing down a player with a shield and heavy armor.

I did some VDSA and SO tonight. My team was doing some older strategies for VDSA because dps was low. I can't imagine the extra burden of re-shielding over and over, in order to regenerate stamina, while casting taunts, aoes, and calling out the strategy for the group to follow.

Likewise, in sanctum, the re-shielding is going to be a pain in the butt. I have the serpents heavy attacks and cleaves, magic bombs, mantikoras, and buff totems to pay attention to. I'm using a skill rotation, using synergies, and calling out players. I am anything but unoccupied and bored.

Right now tanking has the potential to be set back a year because some players complained about tanks purported non-interactive strategies or boredom and the developers believed them.

his vid is from a time where all dots drained tons of stamina, thats not the case anymore... not denying his achievements though just saying. he used the optimal class for breaking this behavior and still needed nearly 5 minutes, while beeing one of the best (dk)duelers out there vs a player with a great ability set but not that awesome playerskills.

Thank you for the background information.

Let me explain why Sheliza was beaten by Sypher, Sheliza beat herself trying to be agressive. She drained her own stamina
by using ransack pretty often which is not the case when she tanks multiple enemies. But the real strange part was that
why did she do it? To purposely die maybe? I dont know. But for your information, Sypher makes videos, he is the GM of
Legends where Sheliza was an officer when the duel happened.

Personofsecrets

TagaParti wrote: »

Let me explain why Sheliza was beaten by Sypher, Sheliza beat herself trying to be agressive. She drained her own stamina
by using ransack pretty often which is not the case when she tanks multiple enemies. But the real strange part was that
why did she do it? To purposely die maybe? I dont know. But for your information, Sypher makes videos, he is the GM of
Legends where Sheliza was an officer when the duel happened.

I did find all of those pierce armors strange, but Sheliza seems to be using the master sword. They did seem overly aggressive against Sypher, but the ending makes sense. Sypher used Duroks Bane and Power Bash for the defile so the fight doesn't really seem fishy to me.

Farorin

Timing blocks will help, but for people like me with a consistently high ping, my only hope to block attacks is if I hold block the whole time, because even when I time it correctly, I still get hit as if I was a bit too late due to lag.

TagaParti

Personofsecrets wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

Let me explain why Sheliza was beaten by Sypher, Sheliza beat herself trying to be agressive. She drained her own stamina
by using ransack pretty often which is not the case when she tanks multiple enemies. But the real strange part was that
why did she do it? To purposely die maybe? I dont know. But for your information, Sypher makes videos, he is the GM of
Legends where Sheliza was an officer when the duel happened.

I did find all of those pierce armors strange, but Sheliza seems to be using the master sword. They did seem overly aggressive against Sypher, but the ending makes sense. Sypher used Duroks Bane and Power Bash for the defile so the fight doesn't really seem fishy to me.

Durok's Bane and Reverberating Bash debuffs was easily
negated by Malubeth heal and buff and Master Sword heal and Draconic
passive buffs. Which at that time debuffs and buffs stacks.

Nifty2g

Farorin wrote: »

Timing blocks will help, but for people like me with a consistently high ping, my only hope to block attacks is if I hold block the whole time, because even when I time it correctly, I still get hit as if I was a bit too late due to lag.

Don't time blocks, block all the time. That doesn't work.

Personofsecrets

Farorin wrote: »

Timing blocks will help, but for people like me with a consistently high ping, my only hope to block attacks is if I hold block the whole time, because even when I time it correctly, I still get hit as if I was a bit too late due to lag.

I used to get hit by the serpent's image cleave every time. I lowered all of my setting to bare minimum and no longer get one shot by that mechanic. I understood that I'm probably in the minority when it comes to computer setups as I use a laptop, but I wished for a long time that the serpent's image would telegraph their attack a bit differently.

You are right, if this change occurs, then anyone with high ping will feel the full severity of no stamina regeneration while blocking. I've made the point before that tanks are probably the ones, if anybody, that have worse computer set ups because we don't have to do as many split second actions per minute.