PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2015

criscal wrote: »

Well, as a tank in PvE end-game, I don't like the idea of this change at all as it implies paying twice for blocking. I don't care about PvP in Lagodil.
Axes in the archive will become much harder to control and without your personal ammunition belt in shape of a templar this looks impossible in prospect. Without 100% reliable internet connection it will suck to not put up the block in time. Even a weapon swap at the wrong time can kill you at the Mantikora in Sanctum Ophidia when it comes delayed too, just as a more extreme example.
I hope they make up their mind about it and soften the impact of what I perceive as a PvP fix breaking PvE endgame content. One way I suggest is to retain - at least partially - stamina regeneration with at set of at least 5 heavy armor items. Could be even a passive in the heavy armor skills line.
Of course it would suck as well, if the Green Dragon Blood and the Blood Spawn Set would be utterly useless in block position - and that's how it looks like to me with the brief announcement.

Not every tank is a DK with Battle Roar, an issue that some people seem to forget. Nightblade tanks have a passive that grants them a sizable Stamina Regen (guess that won't work). Templar tanks can slot Repentence (or the other morph) for some Stamina Regen - This will work when there are dead adds to soak up, otherwise guess that won't work. It is not just about Green Dragon Blood, which by the way Coagulating blood might end up being the better choice for your tank in this never blocking system.

I suggest that this is a dumbing down of Tanking, because it means the Tank will have even fewer resources to rely upon to help team mates in the role of CC and all the rest of which you are talking about @DDuke. They are literally hamstringing them from being even more helpful, and they're making the role more boring by saying we essentially won't be able to use our ability bar. If I can't stamina regen while blocking, how am I going to afford to agro a horde of adds with ransack/innerfire/caltrops as a non-DK. The thing that is grotesquely boring and annoying about this system is I get the strong feeling they are pigeonholing our Class choices into archetypes, which is not the bill of goods we were sold at the outset of the game. I'll reiterate I could be wrong, and they might have some mechanic in mind to deal with the issue. Maybe the fact we wear heavy armor and utilize spike armor/blur/rune focus will be that added edge that saves the day along with CP. I really don't think so. What I see happening here is that there won't be any tanks, and the game is turning into an 'everyone is dps' game.

mtwiggz · July 2015

Death to perma-blockers! What's this PvE nonsense you speak of? Can we kill it? I want to kill it.

Nifty2g · July 2015

mtwiggz wrote: »

Death to perma-blockers! What's this PvE nonsense you speak of? Can we kill it? I want to kill it.

Dont worry ZOS think they have PvP game anyway

septvestige · July 2015

"Leave perma blockers alone! I want my win button back!"

Come on guys have some dignity pls! Do you remember all those pve content is too easy threads? Can you see those lfg vetDSA "speedrun" or lfg "farming" head/shoulder? Now you have some challange.

Do you think you are an awsome pro player cos you can use one skill and without it you are ruined? Than maybe you are not that pro that you think yourself.

EDIT: grammar

J2JMC · July 2015

Halfwitte wrote: »

Not every tank has unlimited resources in the way you feel they do. Most have enough stamina regen while fighting one enemy that it supersedes the cost of blocking in most not really threatening situations. There are those that have more because they have geared that way and invested the time and CP to be an effective tank and we like what we have accomplished. CP makes much of this possible. Are we going to start thrashing tanks even more when they reach even higher amounts of CP and we feel what they're doing then is even more ridiculous? Healing themselves when they bash, and getting damage shields when they block and returning damage when they block, and mitigating 25% of all damage types period without blocking or reaching max armor and spell resist caps and all are possible with enough CP and all things most tanks would strive to reach to be a better tank. I can't seem to grasp why people in PVE wouldn't want their tank to be the gnarliest and toughest Spartan on the field to greater ensure their victory. This perplexes me greatly, because I thought we were supposed to be rooting for our tanks not tearing them down.

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2015

TommyGoodgone wrote: »

"Leave perma blockers alone! I want my win button back!"

Come on guys have some dignity pls! Do you remember all those pve content is too easy threads? Can you see those lfg vetDSA "speedrun" or lfg "farming" head/shoulder? Now you have some challange.

Do you think you are an awsome pro player cos you can use one skill and without it you are ruined? Than mabey you are not that pro that you think yourself.

You don't get it. This is not about an 'I Win Button'. The only people who were crying were the Ultra High DPS fiends who got mad that it took a cc or more effort to take someone down than their 1-2 shot. Personally I think this change is asinine for pvp and pve. As others have stated the real elephant in the room is that they got rid of soft caps. I called them out on it, and even sent feedback really hoping they wouldn't send us a game without softcaps. It was a bad idea when they did this, and now they're trying to slapshod repair the mistake with more stupidity. If they had diminishing returns (ie: Softcaps) this would avoid the problems of people so far exceeding in any endeavor that the game could be balanced.

I want balance believe me. I'm one of those weird guys that thinks gear is stupid because it invariably wrecks balance on every single MMO I've ever seen. Most MMO designers should look at what SWG was when it started, and copy that. Unfortunately, most people look at what the SWG designers looked at, WoW, and ruined MMO's for a decade. Perhaps it is just because I am the type of gamer who comes from playing internally balanced (or close to it) games like Battlefront, Halo, Counterstrike, various dogfighting games, etc. A game needs balance to be challenging and fun. No one likes to play basketball if they far outclass their opponent unless they are a complete ass. I doubt a 5 year old would have very much fun getting trampled by Kobe Bryant in a no holds barred match, particularly after a few minutes. Yet somehow in MMO's people eat this garbage up, slathering it on their plates and cramming it down their throats like it is fun. I've been saying it for years and in other MMO's. Quit making crappy new gear sets, and just make the gameplay itself challenging and fun and about making OUR skills (the player) being stretched. I've got no problem with them adding new skills to the game, unlocked by this or that (Spellcrafting, DB, TG I'm looking at you) but I really dislike the continual gear treadmill. It makes the game less about doing what is fun, and more about keeping up with the joneses. Eventually people get sick of the treadmill and leave.

In short, I didn't play games like Halo or Battlefront or Counterstrike or any of the myriad number of dogfighting games I played because I enjoyed some extreme gear advantage (or disadvantage) with other players. I enjoyed it because it was ultimately about skills and playing with other people, and the content was fun. Making a game about mind numbingly simple mechanics and gear grind is not the way to go.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

This'll all blow over once people get used to this change and if it happens to become an increasing problem they'll probably do some boss battle adjustments to either make incoming power attacks more apparent or just flat out reduce the damage taken slightly.

Best to not flip out and just do your best to get used to the change because it seems like it's for the better and will make tanking a lot more interesting.

The power attacks aren't the problem, those are easy to see coming, esp in SO and SOHM. It's the 12k light attacks on lower serpent though block that need to be looked at, because if you multiply that out by 5 it equals dead, and if you aren't supposed to block those light attacks anymore than their damage value needs adjusting.

Manta is a different story, but if you can feed yourself enough sta with obsidian shield (not a great trade-off, 3.5k magic for 1k sta) and get some templars feeding you and some pot rotations you'll be ok. My sta bar doesn't really move on fights like that as it is, the attacks are slow, the damage is predictable, the question is can you save enough sta for taunts without needing a 3rd tank, or do you want to risk your lower tank taunting off you to give you a break at the end of a portal phase. Troll trash will be annoying.

More tanks might be a solution, I prob won't be around to see whatever it is, but I am sure there will be creative solutions.

Beleron · July 2015

The problem is. They removed it and say well buffing other stuff, they balanced out the need for perma block.
ok, ok. Main issue. GIVE US MORE OPTIONS INSTEAD OF BLOCKING. You say you have class diversity?
Ok give a dk the option besides green dragons blood and block spam. Name one that doesn't tank that way.
Fact is all classes and certain tank skills that are needed, far better then others, and block overall is too good, so it was nerfed, but instead, we need more options. We have dodge, and evade.... can we not make them more NOTEWORTHY.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

Beleron wrote: »

The problem is. They removed it and say well buffing other stuff, they balanced out the need for perma block.
ok, ok. Main issue. GIVE US MORE OPTIONS INSTEAD OF BLOCKING. You say you have class diversity?
Ok give a dk the option besides green dragons blood and block spam. Name one that doesn't tank that way.
Fact is all classes and certain tank skills that are needed, far better then others, and block overall is too good, so it was nerfed, but instead, we need more options. We have dodge, and evade.... can we not make them more NOTEWORTHY.

Again... People forgetting not every tank is a DK!! Templars are amazing tanks right now but with this change DKs will have the advantage again since they can cast earthen heart skills to restore stamina and use ultimates to restore resources.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

IMO with all the hate coming from other players who are like "im not a tank so im fine with it, hahaha", mostly based on PVP experience,

even if people here several times pointed out this is PvE discussion and for several times suggested over and over again they are fine with it in PVP, and to make this change PVP only,

i think TANKS should go out on strike and see how fun it will be, no matter if the thank is dk or templar.
Maybe without tanks around all people will understand that this ridiculous change will affect everyone in game as long as the "TANK" icon is still visible in group UI

Of course those hardcore PVP junkies, who grinded whole way to VR14 just to be max lvl and get cookie cutter build to one hit things left and right most likely wont understand, because why would they do PvE, its only its only 75% of whole game content.

A new response to "LF1M Tank .........." or "can you tank this and that" -> "Sorry, ZOS is planning to nerf tanking to the ground under silly excuse of pvp, maybe if you see how it is without tanks, you will realise how wrong it is"

F7sus4 · July 2015

ckbud wrote: »

Don't see how I'm supposed to let go of block to regen my stam in any of these situations. This idea is just crazy, complete craziness. THIS IDEA MUST BE STOPPED BEFORE IT'S EVERY IMPLEMENTED! Please take a poll of the community on this before implementing it. Again, how does this improve people's enjoyment of the game?

This is happening because they think they have a PvP game. For PvE this is a death-trap that will force all tanks to go 3x Potion Cooldown-reduction enchantment on jewerly and being completely dependant on Templar Spear/Shard support. And, probably, still fail.

There was also a tulip jabbering about Magicka/Stamina regeneration being too high and allowing "endless casting" in PvP, while he probably can't imagine that nerfing it would utterly ruin endgame PvE (vDSA, Trials and especially Sanctum Ophidia, longer boss-fights) in the same manner no Stamina regeneration will ruin PvE tanking.

Ace_SiN · July 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please tell me you thought about this right *snip*

Lmao you think thought actually went into this? This was just a knee jerk reaction to the perma blocking QQ that happens in the PvP section all day. ZOS continues to make illogical decision after illogical decision that simply blows my mind. Just when you think they can't possibly make the game any worse..

-signed an angry pvper

RammAss · July 2015

I do see that pvp perma blocking must stop, but this is not the way. Include this change in the cyrodil buffs. If this goes live and ruins the game for me as a stamina PvE player I will quit and find a better one.

WolfingHour · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

IMO with all the hate coming from other players who are like "im not a tank so im fine with it, hahaha", mostly based on PVP experience,

even if people here several times pointed out this is PvE discussion and for several times suggested over and over again they are fine with it in PVP, and to make this change PVP only,

i think TANKS should go out on strike and see how fun it will be, no matter if the thank is dk or templar.
Maybe without tanks around all people will understand that this ridiculous change will affect everyone in game as long as the "TANK" icon is still visible in group UI

Of course those hardcore PVP junkies, who grinded whole way to VR14 just to be max lvl and get cookie cutter build to one hit things left and right most likely wont understand, because why would they do PvE, its only its only 75% of whole game content.

A new response to "LF1M Tank .........." or "can you tank this and that" -> "Sorry, ZOS is planning to nerf tanking to the ground under silly excuse of pvp, maybe if you see how it is without tanks, you will realise how wrong it is"

This or, for maximum impact, cancelling your subscription.

Nothing says " oh s..." better than a report from an analyst saying "week on week comparison of 'active subscription' KPI shows a shift of -x% (y in absolute figures), which is -z% from current projections. Initial investigation shows a positive correlation with latest ESO live event".

I've cancelled mine, although one won't make a difference.

Emma_Overload · July 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

Not every tank has unlimited resources in the way you feel they do. Most have enough stamina regen while fighting one enemy that it supersedes the cost of blocking in most not really threatening situations. There are those that have more because they have geared that way and invested the time and CP to be an effective tank and we like what we have accomplished. CP makes much of this possible. Are we going to start thrashing tanks even more when they reach even higher amounts of CP and we feel what they're doing then is even more ridiculous? Healing themselves when they bash, and getting damage shields when they block and returning damage when they block, and mitigating 25% of all damage types period without blocking or reaching max armor and spell resist caps and all are possible with enough CP and all things most tanks would strive to reach to be a better tank. I can't seem to grasp why people in PVE wouldn't want their tank to be the gnarliest and toughest Spartan on the field to greater ensure their victory. This perplexes me greatly, because I thought we were supposed to be rooting for our tanks not tearing them down.

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

No, people have been crying about (so-called) perma-blocking since launch. It's right up there with animation cancelling in the PvP Whining Hall of Fame. PvP players will blame ANYTHING other than themselves for sucking in Cyrodiil.

Xsorus · July 2015

I can't believe people actually think Perma Blocking is a problem in PvP to begin with...

OrphanHelgen · July 2015

I dont understand why they nerf PVE tanks, its not like we have too many of them

DDuke · July 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

WolfingHour · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Consider this - why sunk further time and resources (for instance, money) into a change that ultimately might not be fit for purpose? (as is the case in the opinion of some)

I bet even that sweet, sparkly frozen pony ca$$$h isn't unlimited.

DDuke · July 2015

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Consider this - why sunk further time and resources (for instance, money) into a change that ultimately might not be fit for purpose? (as is the case in the opinion of some)

I bet even that sweet, sparkly frozen pony ca$$$h isn't unlimited.

And you know this, without even being aware of everything that gets changed in the patch, without even testing it on PTS?

Personofsecrets · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Not everything needs to be tested to know that it is bad.

Shadesofkin · July 2015

Seems to me they're attempting to force us to include multiple tanks or off tanks in End Game in order to take the heat while the other regains Stamina. I mean, I could be wrong, but that seems to be the idea behind "It's harder but it's still doable"

DDuke · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Not everything needs to be tested to know that it is bad.

Oh I forgot, it's the internet and we're all professional game designers here.

Alright, carry on.

Lionxoft · July 2015

Everyone here forgot ESO is still in beta.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

"“The other major combat change we made was to block casting, or blocking in general, but it effects block casting and some other things. So with blocking, there’s a lot of issues with tanks, when they are fighting a boss, they didn’t want to ever get hit with a full hit from a boss that was really high damage, so they were just holding block the whole time. It’s not really that interactive and it’s not really that fun either…..
The update we made to that to help resolve some of these issues is that you no longer regenerate stamina while you are blocking. This is specifically referring to the stamina regeneration stat.” – Eric Wroebel, ESO Live – Episode 21 @ 1:34:30

"... so they were just holding block the whole time. It's not really that interactive and it's not really that fun either."

I'll just trust this professional game designer that I am just holding block and not really interacting or having fun.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Seems to me they're attempting to force us to include multiple tanks or off tanks in End Game in order to take the heat while the other regains Stamina. I mean, I could be wrong, but that seems to be the idea behind "It's harder but it's still doable"

you would think that, but the change to taunting mechanics could possibly indicate otherwise.

Halfwitte · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.

As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

ZOS make a tab after character selection. Option 1) Enter ESO Imperial City Edition and face other players as you fight for control of the Imperial City, or Option 2) Enter ESO Tamriel Unlimited and fight to stop a Daedric Prince from bring about the plane meld. PVE can finally be free from PVP balance issues and you can take away this annoying CC immunity nonsense from PVE that prevents my DK from chaining something twice in a row since it back pedals anyway with talons applied.

PBpsy · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"“The other major combat change we made was to block casting, or blocking in general, but it effects block casting and some other things. So with blocking, there’s a lot of issues with tanks, when they are fighting a boss, they didn’t want to ever get hit with a full hit from a boss that was really high damage, so they were just holding block the whole time. It’s not really that interactive and it’s not really that fun either…..
The update we made to that to help resolve some of these issues is that you no longer regenerate stamina while you are blocking. This is specifically referring to the stamina regeneration stat.” – Eric Wroebel, ESO Live – Episode 21 @ 1:34:30

"... so they were just holding block the whole time. It's not really that interactive and it's not really that fun either."

I'll just trust this professional game designer that I am just holding block and not really interacting or having fun.

LOlL.I was also a bit confused by that whole comment. Really? The tank didn't want to get hit by the big Boom Headshot hit ? Who would have thought of that? Since getting one shot by the big damage hit is a lot interactive fun they will just make it so that it is a lot easier to experience the fun.

Of course this is brought by the same crowd that thought that I didn't have fun on my DK tank in 1.5 because I couldn't get as much ultimate as I was getting on my DPS character. That DK was of course turned back into a DPS immediately after.

Lionxoft wrote: »

Everyone here forgot ESO is still in beta.

Oh.Dang. Sorry. It is sometimes hard to remember that little fact with all the releases and re releases and all the new content coming in.

FireCowCommando · July 2015

I kinda feel the block cost change was designed to effect PvE in this manner, make it much much harder and force you to bring another tank to split the add dmg, main tank rotation on bosses ect. with 1 less dps you need the others picking up the slack.

Probably why they also reset the leaderboards.

It will absolutely be more difficult. Too difficult we will have to wait and see. Too many changes are being put into place that we dont even know about to say that this change is a really bad.

WolfingHour · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Consider this - why sunk further time and resources (for instance, money) into a change that ultimately might not be fit for purpose? (as is the case in the opinion of some)

I bet even that sweet, sparkly frozen pony ca$$$h isn't unlimited.

And you know this, without even being aware of everything that gets changed in the patch, without even testing it on PTS?

There is a principal at stake. I've said this already, multiple times.

And the kicker is that, from the information (little as it may be, granted), it does more harm than good. (For PvE, that is)