PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

Personofsecrets

Dev. "We are implementing something that will fundamentally makes no sense to some players."
Player.

PBpsy wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"“The other major combat change we made was to block casting, or blocking in general, but it effects block casting and some other things. So with blocking, there’s a lot of issues with tanks, when they are fighting a boss, they didn’t want to ever get hit with a full hit from a boss that was really high damage, so they were just holding block the whole time. It’s not really that interactive and it’s not really that fun either…..
The update we made to that to help resolve some of these issues is that you no longer regenerate stamina while you are blocking. This is specifically referring to the stamina regeneration stat.” – Eric Wroebel, ESO Live – Episode 21 @ 1:34:30

"... so they were just holding block the whole time. It's not really that interactive and it's not really that fun either."

I'll just trust this professional game designer that I am just holding block and not really interacting or having fun.

LOlL.I was also a bit confused by that whole comment. Really? The tank didn't want to get hit by the big Boom Headshot hit ? Who would have thought of that? Since getting one shot by the big damage hit is a lot interactive fun they will just make it so that it is a lot easier to experience the fun.

Of course this is brought by the same crowd that thought that I didn't have fun on my DK tank in 1.5 because I couldn't get as much ultimate as I was getting on my DPS character. That DK was of course turned back into a DPS immediately after.

Lionxoft wrote: »

Everyone here forgot ESO is still in beta.

Oh.Dang. Sorry. It is sometimes hard to remember that little fact with all the releases and re releases and all the new content coming in.

Do you remember where they said that bit about changing ultimates because of tanks? I'm coming up with a big post and want to quote exactly what they said.

DDuke

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.


As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).


What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?


The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

WolfingHour

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"“The other major combat change we made was to block casting, or blocking in general, but it effects block casting and some other things. So with blocking, there’s a lot of issues with tanks, when they are fighting a boss, they didn’t want to ever get hit with a full hit from a boss that was really high damage, so they were just holding block the whole time. It’s not really that interactive and it’s not really that fun either…..
The update we made to that to help resolve some of these issues is that you no longer regenerate stamina while you are blocking. This is specifically referring to the stamina regeneration stat.” – Eric Wroebel, ESO Live – Episode 21 @ 1:34:30

"... so they were just holding block the whole time. It's not really that interactive and it's not really that fun either."

I'll just trust this professional game designer that I am just holding block and not really interacting or having fun.

One can do a metric sh..load of work while holding block to control the battlefield - cc, healing, dps.

CC doesnt apply to bosses with no adds, of course, but if that's the case update the bosses, don't neuter the players.

DDuke

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Consider this - why sunk further time and resources (for instance, money) into a change that ultimately might not be fit for purpose? (as is the case in the opinion of some)

I bet even that sweet, sparkly frozen pony ca$$$h isn't unlimited.

And you know this, without even being aware of everything that gets changed in the patch, without even testing it on PTS?

There is a principal at stake. I've said this already, multiple times.

And the kicker is that, from the information (little as it may be, granted), it does more harm than good. (For PvE, that is)

If that principal is "I want to be able to tank everything & ruin the game", then let it burn I say.

You are not able to tell whether this does harm or good without testing it & without knowing how else tanking is impacted by next patch, and this is a fact. Best you can do is guess, but then that's all it is: guesswork.

Endenium

Removing stamina regen from blocking - for tanks - will not make the tanking experience any more enjoyable. Its only going to make it less enjoyable. Less fun.

Why?

Less resources, less build variance, less off dpsing

This is a really poor development decision. I think that ZOS originally intended to remove stamina regen from blocking for PVP reasons, but had not thought it through completely. And so now they are backtracking and feeding us a line of crap about their concern for the current state of tanking.

I think that the truth is that this is a PVP decision that is mistakenly being applied to PVE.

Honestly, it shakes my faith in the competence of the devs at Zenimax Online Studios.

Sell your stocks now, boys, while they are still worth something.

DDuke

Endenium wrote: »

All discussion about stamina regen aside - why is Zenimax making PVP decisions that so drastically affect and unbalance PVE?

ZOS went as far as saying they made this decision, not to hurt PVE or tanks, but to fix PVP combat. If this is true, then why apply this change to PVE or tanking at all? Why not insulate them from the impact from the changes to the PVP environment?

Add a passive to heavy armor that negates the removal of stamina regen while blocking, or add a passive that reduces how much stamina regen is removed while blocking. So tanks can still gain at least SOME stamina back while blocking.

In other words.... Maybe ZOS should think things through for once and listen to their PAYING customers - rather than just ram changes down their throats.

Maybe ZOS should work on improving this game regardless of how the conservative players too used to their OP builds feel.

Fact is that combat in this game isn't perfect (as mentioned by most people who reviewed this game, and gave it low scores).

PvE end game isn't perfect (a lot of it has to do with the repetitive "tank everything, stack & AoE" bs), which is why majority of hardcore PvE guilds already left this game.


They're trying to make a better game, yet people are resisting without even knowing how the changes will affect them.
I find this funny (and sad).

WolfingHour

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Consider this - why sunk further time and resources (for instance, money) into a change that ultimately might not be fit for purpose? (as is the case in the opinion of some)

I bet even that sweet, sparkly frozen pony ca$$$h isn't unlimited.

And you know this, without even being aware of everything that gets changed in the patch, without even testing it on PTS?

There is a principal at stake. I've said this already, multiple times.

And the kicker is that, from the information (little as it may be, granted), it does more harm than good. (For PvE, that is)

If that principal is "I want to be able to tank everything & ruin the game", then let it burn I say.

You are not able to tell whether this does harm or good without testing it & without knowing how else tanking is impacted by next patch, and this is a fact. Best you can do is guess, but then that's all it is: guesswork.

The principal is not that and stands regardless if we actually test it our not. Read my previous posts. Key words: blanket fixes instead of new mechanics, artificially extending gameplay instead of new content.

Halfwitte

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.


As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).


What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?


The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Whiff and a Miss... Nuances pfft... Don't know why we still bother If we didn't find it fun I would like to think we would have traded our tanks for a dps just maybe... or hey I know we would go PVP and permablock all day and drive the glass canons craaaazzzzyyyy!!!! Now THAT is FUN!!! Even better lets turn this into a thread about NERFING NB fear since we won't be able to use our precious stamina that will no longer regenerate while blocking to actually block the Fear. Anyone know where the rolls eyes smiley face is can't seem to find it? Or hey let's instead talk about all the info they've provided to help clarify the whys and hows and actual effects of this change... Yeah! we could do that instead.

ZOS leave tanks alone please.

PBpsy

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Dev. "We are implementing something that will fundamentally makes no sense to some players."
Player.

PBpsy wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"“The other major combat change we made was to block casting, or blocking in general, but it effects block casting and some other things. So with blocking, there’s a lot of issues with tanks, when they are fighting a boss, they didn’t want to ever get hit with a full hit from a boss that was really high damage, so they were just holding block the whole time. It’s not really that interactive and it’s not really that fun either…..
The update we made to that to help resolve some of these issues is that you no longer regenerate stamina while you are blocking. This is specifically referring to the stamina regeneration stat.” – Eric Wroebel, ESO Live – Episode 21 @ 1:34:30

"... so they were just holding block the whole time. It's not really that interactive and it's not really that fun either."

I'll just trust this professional game designer that I am just holding block and not really interacting or having fun.

LOlL.I was also a bit confused by that whole comment. Really? The tank didn't want to get hit by the big Boom Headshot hit ? Who would have thought of that? Since getting one shot by the big damage hit is a lot interactive fun they will just make it so that it is a lot easier to experience the fun.

Of course this is brought by the same crowd that thought that I didn't have fun on my DK tank in 1.5 because I couldn't get as much ultimate as I was getting on my DPS character. That DK was of course turned back into a DPS immediately after.

Lionxoft wrote: »

Everyone here forgot ESO is still in beta.

Oh.Dang. Sorry. It is sometimes hard to remember that little fact with all the releases and re releases and all the new content coming in.

Do you remember where they said that bit about changing ultimates because of tanks? I'm coming up with a big post and want to quote exactly what they said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9yqeetasSQ
At around min 47 is where they "raise the inequality".
At around 50 they explain what exactly is wrong with soft cap removal.
At around min 55 I was already sure there is something very wrong and the game will go B2P/F2P soon.

The fun part is that they are trying to spin this Blocking nerf as a PVE issue when it is clearly intended to remove the Block cast PVP meta. The same way the dynamic ultimate generation was removed because of the batsworm/negate/standard,/out of combat healing springs zerg meta. N
Nothing else.Anyone that is buying this crap is either insane or full of it.

Personofsecrets

Endenium wrote: »

Removing stamina regen from blocking - for tanks - will not make the tanking experience any more enjoyable. Its only going to make it less enjoyable. Less fun.

Why?

Less resources, less build variance, less off dpsing

This is a really poor development decision. I think that ZOS originally intended to remove stamina regen from blocking for PVP reasons, but had not thought it through completely. And so now they are backtracking and feeding us a line of crap about their concern for the current state of tanking.

I think that the truth is that this is a PVP decision that is mistakenly being applied to PVE.

Honestly, it shakes my faith in the competence of the devs at Zenimax Online Studios.

Sell your stocks now, boys, while they are still worth something.

At least they gave such a bad reason for the change that we now have the ammunition to fire the change down.

Endenium

TommyGoodgone wrote: »

"Leave perma blockers alone! I want my win button back!"


Come on guys have some dignity pls! Do you remember all those pve content is too easy threads? Can you see those lfg vetDSA "speedrun" or lfg "farming" head/shoulder? Now you have some challange.

Do you think you are an awsome pro player cos you can use one skill and without it you are ruined? Than mabey you are not that pro that you think yourself.

Or perhaps, just maybe, you dont know what you are talking about and have never tanked a day in your life.

Go back to Cyrodiil so I can laugh when you disconnect.

Personofsecrets

DDuke wrote: »

Endenium wrote: »

All discussion about stamina regen aside - why is Zenimax making PVP decisions that so drastically affect and unbalance PVE?

ZOS went as far as saying they made this decision, not to hurt PVE or tanks, but to fix PVP combat. If this is true, then why apply this change to PVE or tanking at all? Why not insulate them from the impact from the changes to the PVP environment?

Add a passive to heavy armor that negates the removal of stamina regen while blocking, or add a passive that reduces how much stamina regen is removed while blocking. So tanks can still gain at least SOME stamina back while blocking.

In other words.... Maybe ZOS should think things through for once and listen to their PAYING customers - rather than just ram changes down their throats.

Maybe ZOS should work on improving this game regardless of how the conservative players too used to their OP builds feel.

Fact is that combat in this game isn't perfect (as mentioned by most people who reviewed this game, and gave it low scores).

PvE end game isn't perfect (a lot of it has to do with the repetitive "tank everything, stack & AoE" bs), which is why majority of hardcore PvE guilds already left this game.


They're trying to make a better game, yet people are resisting without even knowing how the changes will affect them.
I find this funny (and sad).

The devs are incapable of being wrong.

DDuke

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Endenium wrote: »

All discussion about stamina regen aside - why is Zenimax making PVP decisions that so drastically affect and unbalance PVE?

ZOS went as far as saying they made this decision, not to hurt PVE or tanks, but to fix PVP combat. If this is true, then why apply this change to PVE or tanking at all? Why not insulate them from the impact from the changes to the PVP environment?

Add a passive to heavy armor that negates the removal of stamina regen while blocking, or add a passive that reduces how much stamina regen is removed while blocking. So tanks can still gain at least SOME stamina back while blocking.

In other words.... Maybe ZOS should think things through for once and listen to their PAYING customers - rather than just ram changes down their throats.

Maybe ZOS should work on improving this game regardless of how the conservative players too used to their OP builds feel.

Fact is that combat in this game isn't perfect (as mentioned by most people who reviewed this game, and gave it low scores).

PvE end game isn't perfect (a lot of it has to do with the repetitive "tank everything, stack & AoE" bs), which is why majority of hardcore PvE guilds already left this game.


They're trying to make a better game, yet people are resisting without even knowing how the changes will affect them.
I find this funny (and sad).

The devs are incapable of being wrong.

So are the players, apparently (without even seeing or testing the stuff, mind you).

Endenium

Cant wait to go play FF14 when this crap goes live.

Endenium

This is a PVE change for PVP permablock reasons. Thats like getting a haircut because your check engine light is on in your car.

The crap about tanking being "boring" right now was just an excuse. A band-aid for the mismanagement and failure to think these decisions through in the first place.

patrykplawskib16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.


As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).


What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?


The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Dude you never played PvE with all this garbage your saying, certain raids like SO in order to be even completed is needed 2 tanks and a off spec tank and guess what the manticore does not hit like you it hits like the rock 18k damage per swing and that's regular attacks than you have the serpent where you need a off spec tank who cant even tank that much cause there stam is not optimized for it. How are they suppose to tank ? how are you suppose to tank 4 axes in AA and do HM they all do consecutive swings and power attacks ?!?!?!! how do you do HRC HM its all impossible without stam regen. Also there is no god dam MMO who has no regen when tanking. Another thing is I don't care if pvp is unfair why don't they just do a separate patch ?? All you fuqing pvp'ers are a bunch of cry baby self absorbed, ignorant ***. It's called Git Good. And there is no such thing as perma block you just suck at fighting with someone with a shield. It's so easy to kill them once there gaurd is let down thats when you strike its not hard and I a pve'er and I know this.

Endenium

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.


As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).


What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

Not everything needs to be tested to know that it is bad.

Oh I forgot, it's the internet and we're all professional game designers here.

Alright, carry on.

It doesn't take a professional game designer to identify poor critical thinking skills or to understand that this is a mistake. Go back to Cyrodiil.

Plaid13ub17_ESO

Everyone saying oh wait and see and test it... Whats to test? You have NO stamina to use any skills. That is not hard to figure out. you will need all block cost reduction glyphs. Also not hard to figure out. You will have to heavy attack often to be able to block. So here is what you do to test it... Go remove any stam regen from your gear remove any stam attack cost stuff from your gear. Now go attack stuff and keep in mind you still have a lot more stam regen then you will have. Watch how many times you can use your taunt/heroic slash. maybe 3 times each? Then you are out until the fight is over or you are heavy attacking and taking massive amounts of damage. Do this on hard hitting mobs not normal mobs. maybe some of the multiple boss fights in vet dsa. Or the axes in AA.

Removing your ability to use stamina based skills is not more fun. It is less fun. Removing a major chunk of your defense as a tank is removing a major part of why people play tanks! When you see someone in pve running around in heavy armor and a shield and they have 35k health they are not going to be doing much damage at all. They have givin up that damage for the survival. It is a fair trade and now a major chunk of that survival is being removed. There is nothing fun about that.

As far as pvp goes sure nerf blocking in pvp but even no stam regened in pvp while blocking is absurd. Bring it down to 50% or 30% or whatever but none? that is nuts. Tanks need to be made more powerful and more useful in pvp not less. I am not talking about the DPS builds that just happen to use a shield. I mean true tanks. high health maxed defense low DPS tanks. Right now they just get ignored until everyone else is dead because they are absolutely no threat at all.

Personofsecrets

DDuke wrote: »

So are the players, apparently (without even seeing or testing the stuff, mind you).

And we already discussed why we shouldn't hold developer testing in a positive light. Additionally, Eric gave a preposterous reason for the change which has been easily refuted by tanks.

I've also explained why tanks have already taken their lumps and why the developers have been wrong about tanks in the past. This is less about players not wanting to try something out and more about players being the bosses of how they enjoy the game rather than the other way around.

Personofsecrets

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone saying oh wait and see and test it... Whats to test? You have NO stamina to use any skills. That is not hard to figure out. you will need all block cost reduction glyphs. Also not hard to figure out. You will have to heavy attack often to be able to block. So here is what you do to test it... Go remove any stam regen from your gear remove any stam attack cost stuff from your gear. Now go attack stuff and keep in mind you still have a lot more stam regen then you will have. Watch how many times you can use your taunt/heroic slash. maybe 3 times each? Then you are out until the fight is over or you are heavy attacking and taking massive amounts of damage. Do this on hard hitting mobs not normal mobs. maybe some of the multiple boss fights in vet dsa. Or the axes in AA.

Removing your ability to use stamina based skills is not more fun. It is less fun. Removing a major chunk of your defense as a tank is removing a major part of why people play tanks! When you see someone in pve running around in heavy armor and a shield and they have 35k health they are not going to be doing much damage at all. They have givin up that damage for the survival. It is a fair trade and now a major chunk of that survival is being removed. There is nothing fun about that.

As far as pvp goes sure nerf blocking in pvp but even no stam regened in pvp while blocking is absurd. Bring it down to 50% or 30% or whatever but none? that is nuts. Tanks need to be made more powerful and more useful in pvp not less. I am not talking about the DPS builds that just happen to use a shield. I mean true tanks. high health maxed defense low DPS tanks. Right now they just get ignored until everyone else is dead because they are absolutely no threat at all.

What's also important about not letting this to the testing phase is that implied idea that we accept it enough to be tested. We need not give an inch so that others can take a mile. I also don't think compromising on a % of stamina regeneration rather than 0% is right here. Compromising makes sense if we know we will lose the debate outright, but it also opens us up to losing the debate. I'd also like to mention that any change to stamina regen could be the death knell for tanking. v10 drink is the difference between sustaining stamina through multiple blocking in some instances and v10 drink doesn't exactly give the greatest buff to regen.

DDuke

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I think this highlights the problem. ZOS won't be able to balance anything properly while CP's are around. Perma blocking may have never been an issue without cps.

What game have you been playing? Permablocking has always been an issue, ever since the launch of this game.


As for those complaining about the PvE effects of it... do you really enjoy every trash mob encounter just being "tank taunts everything, brings them together & DPS AoEs"?

Because that's what it is, if you don't put limits to what tanks can do.

Maybe instead of tanking everything & DPS just AoEing them down (extremely boring from DPS perspective), we'll have tanks only handle the biggest threat or two, while DPS deals with adds (blocking/dodging heavy attacks, CCing etc).


What baffles me is that people QQ before even having the patch notes before them, without even testing the changes.

Get a grip people, seriously.

We're trying to maintain our grip on regenerating stamina while blocking as tanks in PVE like the Topic of the Post illustrates in large bold print. We aren't discussing a permanent blocking issue in PvP or how fun it is for dps or isn't (for all the vanilla WoW lovers that just can't let go of not having to polymorph and sap targets during dungeon trash pulls) to just AoE everything to death or the logistics of how interesting it is or isn't or fair or right or boring or whether or not there should be limits. When ZOS removed soft caps and added CP they hinted at the fact that they really didn't know how it would affect the game in the long run and here we are at the crossroads of those effects, Tanks that are super strong and can tank everything without dying or having to drop their block and heal the group at the same time. We have dps so powerful that groups are finishing vDSA in under 40 minutes pushing finishing in under 30 minutes.

Right, so you're basicly saying *** the game and whether it's fun or not, I just want to be op and tank the whole room while healing my group mates and dealing 20k DPS.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Speaking as a Tank, taking stamina regen away from me while blocking would more than cripple my Templar and I wouldn't be the only tank sidelined by this new content. This is a terrible idea and we haven't so much as gotten a why. Why this change is necessary for PVE tanks? ZOS dislikes the thought of tanks performing their roles better than they anticipated so much that they would crush us under the heel of the nerf boot without even so much as a second thought or having given a why. This is especially disheartening considering they were the architects of our creation and apparently now they're the authors of our extinction. ZOS why?

Speaking as a tank, have you tested the new content yet? Have you even seen patch notes with full list of changes, new item sets & skill changes possibly altering the tanking experience (which quite frankly is a boring job currently)?

If not, how can you pretend to be certain of things, when you're not?


The why has been explained plenty of times.

If you perform your job as tank better than you should be able to (e.g. tanking more enemies & damage than you should), then of course it needs to get nerfed (since it takes away from the challenge and it takes away from the fun of everyone else).

If as a DPS I was able to one shot every boss, would that be nerfed? Of course.

Seriously, do you find PvE in this game still fun?

Run in, tank taunts stuff, AoE, repeat ad infinitum.

Not repetitive or boring at all *rolls eyes*

Dude you never played PvE with all this garbage your saying, certain raids like SO in order to be even completed is needed 2 tanks and a off spec tank and guess what the manticore does not hit like you it hits like the rock 18k damage per swing and that's regular attacks than you have the serpent where you need a off spec tank who cant even tank that much cause there stam is not optimized for it. How are they suppose to tank ? how are you suppose to tank 4 axes in AA and do HM they all do consecutive swings and power attacks ?!?!?!! how do you do HRC HM its all impossible without stam regen. Also there is no god dam MMO who has no regen when tanking. Another thing is I don't care if pvp is unfair why don't they just do a separate patch ?? All you fuqing pvp'ers are a bunch of cry baby self absorbed, ignorant ***. It's called Git Good. And there is no such thing as perma block you just suck at fighting with someone with a shield. It's so easy to kill them once there gaurd is let down thats when you strike its not hard and I a pve'er and I know this.

First of all, SO does not need two tanks (unless you suck and can't kill Manti fast enough).

Second of all, stop saying things like "impossible to do". You haven't even tested the new changes, and you're claiming things will be "impossible"?

Lastly, you can stop with the "go back to pvp" & "dude you never played PvE".

I've most likely spent more time in Trials alone than you've spent in game. I am in the guild with top 2-3 scores in every trial in game and have completed absolutely everything more times than I can count.

DDuke

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So are the players, apparently (without even seeing or testing the stuff, mind you).

And we already discussed why we shouldn't hold developer testing in a positive light. Additionally, Eric gave a preposterous reason for the change which has been easily refuted by tanks.

I've also explained why tanks have already taken their lumps and why the developers have been wrong about tanks in the past. This is less about players not wanting to try something out and more about players being the bosses of how they enjoy the game rather than the other way around.

Well, maybe give it some player testing then, before QQing?

It's also funny how your small gang of forum tanks are now speaking for every tank in game.

Not that it even matters, since your tanking also affects what the DPS & Healers are doing.


And yes, developers have been wrong about tanks in the past. That's why we've had "zerg in & AoE" style fights ever since launch, probably major reason why the game had to go B2P. Good to see they're finally correcting these issues.

It doesn't matter if the 3-4 players out of 100 who have already quit still enjoy the game, it's about making the game enjoyable to more people (by making it better)

Joy_Division

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Personofsecrets

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

A. Now do sanctum in light armor and realize that different strategies are good for different instances.
B. Now understand that getting light armor to work as a tank isn't unheard of and especially not in vdsa where all roles are pushing their boundaries.
C. Who gets to decide what 'should' and 'should' not be possible is interesting question. Should players be able to solo regular dsa? Well, in my narrow minded experience of such a feet no. Therefore Vigor and Steel Tornado must be removed from he game.

Rinmaethodain

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Did you tank it with a pug group of randomly picked players or a specially selected team of people you always play with, long term players with everything maxed out because you had to take someone to make sure you dont die, because that would disprove what you said, but if you would take pro DPSes and pro healer you can now tell left and right "tanked dsa in light armor, too easy"?

DDuke

Personofsecrets wrote: »

C. Who gets to decide what 'should' and 'should' not be possible is interesting question. Should players be able to solo regular dsa? Well, in my narrow minded experience of such a feet no. Therefore Vigor and Steel Tornado must be removed from he game.

Interesting.

How do you expect a stamina build to solo regular DSA with Vigor+Steel Tornado, when infinite roll dodging becomes an impossibility?


Blocking isn't the only thing they're nerfing (rightfully so) in the patch you know.

The Uninvited

Joy_Division wrote: »

My sorcerer with"

• My DPS set of light armor dedicated to spell damage
• Zero gear dedicated to block reduction
• 31 out of 50 points in the sword and board line
• 0 attribute points invested in stamina

Tanked DSA and did not die a single time.

I never played a dedicated tank, don't know the theorycrafting, and quite frankly don't know what I am doing.

This should not be possible. Sorry, Duke is right, it is way too easy. When I see VDSA actually require a tank rather than a tank/healer/dps, then I will be more sympathetic to arguments that ZoS should retain the status quo.

Was this before or after the light armour nerf?

Personofsecrets

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

C. Who gets to decide what 'should' and 'should' not be possible is interesting question. Should players be able to solo regular dsa? Well, in my narrow minded experience of such a feet no. Therefore Vigor and Steel Tornado must be removed from he game.

Interesting.

How do you expect a stamina build to solo regular DSA with Vigor+Steel Tornado, when infinite roll dodging becomes an impossibility?


Blocking isn't the only thing they're nerfing (rightfully so) in the patch you know.

see the devs are on my side. I am totally right about this.

GhostShadows

Leandor wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Completely wrong. Either you play one of these and intend to spew misinformation or you don't PvP. The permanently blocking DKs (GDB, Scales, Spiked Armor, Whip, Invasion and Banner on the bar, never change weapons) were a thing. Especially with Whip bypassing dodge, that is the most ridiculous build in all of Cyrodiil. Good thing this is now tackled.

Yes I do play a DK tank from time to time in cyrodiil. If you can't beat us, then figure out a counter to the supposed DK menace rather than having the devs do it for you.

Oh, I have the counter. Only thing is you guys complain about that almost as much as sorcs complain about the shield nerf.

This playstyle (permablock DK) needs to go. There is nothing skillful in it. You can only attack them from melee range cause wings and then you get whipped to death because there was no way to evade it. The second you use fear to break their fortress you get hate whispers. Well played.

I would have been fine with Whip change alone, but this is better.

I never thought I say this to anyone because it seems to me very rude, but you have a problem l2p

Komma

We have one tank in our guild. He hardly plays anymore so we have had several people step up and make tank alts. That should tell you how needed tanks are right now. I dont think this will help make tanking more enjoyable but it may get you to bring multiple tanks on raids.

One of the main reasons imo why people dont play tanks is that for most raids people only take one tank since this game is all about speed and dps. Why would someone want to play a tank and rarely get to go on trials runs because they already have a guild tank? We didnt have anyone making tanks because we had one and when he stopped playing that changed.

Maybe now people will be forced to have a second tank. When the first tank gets low on stamina the second tank steps in. People need to open their minds to new ways to play. There is more than one way to accomplish a mission. Dont be so narrow minded.