Experience Point Boosters

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

This really depends mostly on the availability of the mats / recipes to do so, honestly.

I dont see how. If its in the game that means you can get it wihtout using the store. The definition of pay to win in mmos is something on the store that is not in the game any other way and gives you an advantage. This is in the game. It doesnt really matter how rare etc. The store is about convenience.

It's a consumable item, for starters, which means that there needs to be a constant supply of sorts. It should at least be competitive w/ the "convenient" cash version, which all of the other Crown Store vs in-game analogues have been thus far.

Let's look at what's available in the Crown store, vs what's available in-game:

The health / magicka / stam potions are actually easier to craft in-game, though more convenient to buy in large packs through the store. The versions that you can craft are still better right out of the box, though, as they have a much greater variety and can restore all 3 resources for the same amount.

The same goes for the available Provisioning analogues.

If you look at the available motifs, you can buy the blue motifs for a song and that really doesn't effect much, as you can also pick these up in-game for free or cheap pretty easily.

The more rare motifs are priced expensively; 50 Crowns for a Dwemer motif is almost the price of another AAA title for that convenience. This seems to balance out those who may wish to pick up these very rare motifs, and they are just a single-use and STILL require the player to gather Dwemer frames (very expensive to buy, hard to farm) in-game to utilize.

None of the afore-mentioned items really boost a player's ability to rank higher on leaderboards or kill more players in PvP, though. Until now, they have been mostly cosmetic; even the Riding Lessons may help very slightly in AP farming, but they aren't going to get your group to Rank 1 in Vet CoH.

And now there are these XP boosters vs the in-game version, the very first item on the Crown Store that actually will help a character to become permanently stronger and will help them to down content faster or kill more players in PvP.

From a game balance standpoint, where an even playing field is assumed amongst players, you cannot blame some of us for being wary about this newest offering.

Personally, I'm waiting until more information is available to make a final judgment, but initially it does feel like the Crown Store version is going to be far more readily available, which was always expected.

But the question is: How MUCH more readily available? Will it be relatively comparable like all of the earlier Crown Store offerings that have either a high price tag or easily obtainable in-game analogs?

Or will it be prohibitively expensive via in-game means or rare to the point of near non-existence? How many players will actually be able to craft these? Are the recipes themselves going to take months to find, or weeks?

These are important questions to many of us when trying to determine how we actually do feel about the Crown Store versions, and that discernment will in turn determine how we feel about continuing to contribute to the game. Many of us have already invested quite a bit monetarily toward the continuing development of the game, but if it's going to go down a path that seems to be leaning toward "cash-grab mechanics", then some people are going to be reluctant to continue doing so.

That's not a threat, that's just a simple fact. It doesn't matter to anyone if I stop being an ESO+ member and I'm not naive enough to even consider pulling the "lol I gonna quit u game" card, but it is something that I will consider internally and I'm sure that plenty of others feel the same.

What IS probably a fact is that the cutting edge guilds that have been grinding CP from the moment 1.6 dropped will most likely be using these boosters, either the in-game or cash-bought version, depending. Maybe if they finally DO hit the CP cap well ahead of schedule, than the rest of us peasants will have a chance to finally catch up after months / years of being destroyed in the leaderboards and Cyrodiil.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Well the definition of pay to win is something you HAVE to pay for with real money from the cash shop. This is not pay to win.

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Well the definition of pay to win is something you HAVE to pay for with real money from the cash shop. This is not pay to win.

Not even going to attempt to debate the definition of a term that means so many different things to so many different people.

I don't really care what it means to you, as I'm sure you don't care what it means to me.

What I DO care about is whether the availability of the in-game potions will be "comparable" to the Crown Store versions like the other potions on sale, or if the Store-bought version will be as prohibitively priced as previous Crown Store offerings when compared to some of the more rare in-game counterparts that can be bought w/ Crowns.

GorraShatan

I think it would be nice if this didn't apply to champion points, but given that it does, I think ZOS should start making some plans for additional constellations or "super champion points" for "super constellations" or something. There are 4 constellations left...

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Well the definition of pay to win is something you HAVE to pay for with real money from the cash shop. This is not pay to win.

Not even going to attempt to debate the definition of a term that means so many different things to so many different people.

I don't really care what it means to you, as I'm sure you don't care what it means to me.

What I DO care about is whether the availability of the in-game potions will be "comparable" to the Crown Store versions like the other potions on sale, or if the Store-bought version will be as prohibitively priced as previous Crown Store offerings when compared to some of the more rare in-game counterparts that can be bought w/ Crowns.

Its not what it means to me. Its what it means period. The availability of them in game for free is obviously going to be alot less than simply buying them off the store. The store is about convenience. If you want them without paying for them then you will need to grind the mats/recipe which obviously takes longer than clicking "buy now".

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

double post

DDuke

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and how rare are the ingredients to "Psijic Ambrosia" going to be?

If I want to grind let's say 10 hours, will I be forced to purchase these from the Crown Store due to insanely expensive prices/rare ingredients, or will I be able to afford them via normal play?

These are the questions that warrant answers and which very much determine whether this will be considered P2W or not.

I do hope ZOS has carefully considered this.


Also, why is the craftable version "weaker" (lasts less time) than the one you can purchase from Crown Store? As I recall, all consumables purchased via Crown Store were supposed to be weaker than crafted ones.

Because the crafted one IS stronger, can you not read? The Experience scroll is only 2 hours. The crafted one from the perks is 4 x 50 mins = 3 hours and 20 mins. Do not try and argue, well what if we do not have the perks; guess what don't be lazy and go get them.

And for the clowns screaming pay to win, it is not pay to win. Pay to win means you pay to win. They are offering both pay option and an in game crafting option.

Less derping and more doing, thats the power of ESO.

On an individual level they are weaker than the Cash Shop version (same strength, but they last less time). It doesn't matter whether you craft 4 for each batch of ingredients, that is entirely another matter.
But if you do want to tread into that territory, keep in mind that you get 10x XP Scrolls/purchase from Cash Shop).
So yes, less derping please.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Question is what are the mats for Psijic Ambrosia?

As previously stated, the mats for Psijic Ambrosia are :
1/ the recipe - split in several parts like dwemer motifs - no info yet as to where, how and how easy / hard it will be to farm them
2/ - Bervez juice - Not particularly rare but you have to do crafting writs to get them
- Frost Mirriam (ditto)
- Perfect roe - no info yet on that one

Thanks ZOS for giving us at least something new to chew on !

And for those who fear "p2w" or greater gap between casual/hardcore : don't. This is "only XP". If lower levels can reach VR14 quicker, that means more new people for us to raid and dungeon with. As to CP's, past the first 200 CP it really doesn't make much of a difference : benefits are minimal and we're OP for 99% of the content anyway.

This is a common misconception people have. The "diminishing effects" are extremely minimalistic, I already deal 20% more dmg at 300 CPs than I did at 200. I compared the difference this 50% boost would make between two previously equal players, and it's no joke.

The difference in damage alone is closer to 30% when comparing 500 & 750 CPs for instance, and that's without taking into account the increased survivability, sustain etc.

To say CPs make no difference after 200 CPs is a bold claim.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Well the definition of pay to win is something you HAVE to pay for with real money from the cash shop. This is not pay to win.

Not even going to attempt to debate the definition of a term that means so many different things to so many different people.

I don't really care what it means to you, as I'm sure you don't care what it means to me.

What I DO care about is whether the availability of the in-game potions will be "comparable" to the Crown Store versions like the other potions on sale, or if the Store-bought version will be as prohibitively priced as previous Crown Store offerings when compared to some of the more rare in-game counterparts that can be bought w/ Crowns.

Its not what it means to me. Its what it means period. The availability of them in game for free is obviously going to be alot less than simply buying them off the store. The store is about convenience. If you want them without paying for them then you will need to grind the mats/recipe which obviously takes longer than clicking "buy now".

It is not about "convenience" if these items aren't obtainable via normal play, and you are forced to purchase them from the Cash Shop in order to keep the buff up 24/7 while you're grinding CPs (or forced to purchase gold from 3rd party website to purchase the potions in game). In that case, it is about P2W when $$$ influences your power in game.

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Its not what it means to me. Its what it means period.

Again, I'm not interested in a debate that nobody is going to win, because the term clearly means different things to different people, and all of them believe that they are right.

Including you. : )

Attorneyatlawl

Varicite wrote: »

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

They are offering both pay option and an in game crafting option.

Doesn't sound like many of the in-game crafted versions will be floating around, and those that are will be exorbitantly expensive.

Find all 6 pieces of the recipe, then use 2 purple mats + gold mat + other mats for a single craft.

Yeah, gonna be REAL expensive. And rare.

...or you can pay cash for your permanent stat boosts to your character so that you can compete for your ranking on the leaderboards, which is in fact "winning" for ESO.

Well said. This isn't promising.... it is going to be a tough thing to balance and likely not doable fairly. For those of us at the top of the leaderboards and who actively play at the high end and top tiers in ESO, it will amount to a nerf if these aren't nearly trivial to earn in game as the champion points and the XP to earn them are critical to making some builds even work. If they take any considerable effort, as they appear to, instead of earning XP we will have to earn gold or spend time to make/buy these potions to remain at the new baseline of competitive XP gain which will be based around numbers including these 50% XP boosters. Needing to pay up real cash to stay competitive is the definition of Pay to Win in an mmorpg. Coming on the heels of long questioned decisions and feedback asking for UI improvements among other things like Cyrodiil fixes, only to finally be commented on in response to a reddit thread about the Xbox One port, I'm taken aback. See what I am blathering on about, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1866923/#Comment_1866923

Attorneyatlawl

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Its not what it means to me. Its what it means period.

Again, I'm not interested in a debate that nobody is going to win, because the term clearly means different things to different people, and all of them believe that they are right.

Including you. : )

Sorry, but facts are not matters of opinion or debate. Pay to win is a standard and widely understood term meaning a requirement to pay real money to remain competitive in a videogame or progress slowly and/or be unable to obtain the same power through items or gear in a comparable or near comparable amount of time and effort.

Varicite

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Its not what it means to me. Its what it means period.

Again, I'm not interested in a debate that nobody is going to win, because the term clearly means different things to different people, and all of them believe that they are right.

Including you. : )

Sorry, but facts are not matters of opinion or debate. Pay to win is a standard and widely understood term meaning a requirement to pay real money to remain competitive in a videogame or progress slowly and/or be unable to obtain the same power through items or gear in a comparable or near comparable amount of time and effort.

Your definition of the term just differed from the other poster's definition of the term, and you both are stating these definitions as "fact".

That is what I'm talking about and what I'm not very interested in rehashing. It's been done to death in these forums already, and there are never any winners.

Let's just stick to the topic at hand, hmm? : )

wraith808

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

This really depends mostly on the availability of the mats / recipes to do so, honestly.

I agree... but from the standpoint of what was datamined, the only thing that's in question is the gold roe ingredient. If it's of the same rarity as other golds, then it's rare without being too rare. And also in question is 1000 Crowns per potion? Or not?

Attorneyatlawl

KyyuU wrote: »

I am at the moment rank 1 in every Trial on the eu megaserver and i can tell CP makes a differant and everyone who wanna play on a top level is forced to use this.
I love this game and my guild but that point has such a bad taste i really thinking about to quit the game and i am not the only one

This is the exact same set of concerns raised weeks ago by myself a lot, and others, and now it is here. Of course, the previous threads were locked for speculation and negativity... concern which was apparently warranted given the result we now have. ZOS, you would be very smart in the community impact this issue will have, to simply post what the mechanics to craft them will be rather than holding it until the cash shop item's launch. This is going to be a hot topic all over from most everyone across forums and social media due to the potential impact and the already large controversy .

Attorneyatlawl

Varicite wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Its not what it means to me. Its what it means period.

Again, I'm not interested in a debate that nobody is going to win, because the term clearly means different things to different people, and all of them believe that they are right.

Including you. : )

Sorry, but facts are not matters of opinion or debate. Pay to win is a standard and widely understood term meaning a requirement to pay real money to remain competitive in a videogame or progress slowly and/or be unable to obtain the same power through items or gear in a comparable or near comparable amount of time and effort.

Your definition of the term just differed from the other poster's definition of the term, and you both are stating these definitions as "fact".

That is what I'm talking about and what I'm not very interested in rehashing. It's been done to death in these forums already, and there are never any winners.

Let's just stick to the topic at hand, hmm? : )

We have been, and actually the definitions match up there regardless. Stick to the topic at hand, please, following your own advice. I simply gave examples of the same thing the poster you quoted had said.

DDuke

The correct way ZOS should go about implementing these, is having the ingredients be rare in <VR14 content, and then drop abundantly at the end game.

That way, you incentivize the people who are mainly interested in "leveling up faster" or "catching up" to purchase them from the store, while avoiding the P2W aspect of making them "must buys" for the competitive people who have reached the end game.


But who am I kidding, these are going in as leaked in the datamined screenshots, costing 2 epic ingredients & 1 legendary ingredient, which will last you for 2 hours of goblin grinding, just so no one who plays a lot & wants to stay competitive can afford staying so, without purchasing them from Cash Shop.

Brilliant, until every competitive player apart from Credit Card Warriors leaves the game.

Bouvin

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

More Convenient to buy from Crown Store will most likely mean 0.00001% drop rate in game for the required crafting mats.

SO ya, still pay2win.

Armitas

So I can buy this potion with real money that will make me more powerful, or I can try and find a legendary recipe, and then fish for hours making 0 xp to get a legendary fish roe mat to make this potion that will net me less xp than what I lost fishing.

This seems 100% P2W to me. I ran into this in Lotro. They tack on some time consuming obstacle course of hoops to jump through if you don't pay leaving you with the only real choice of buying in to be competitive.

People are already concerned over the CP gap as some players have grinded out over 500 CP already, this is going to accelerate that gap for those that buy to win.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Bouvin wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

More Convenient to buy from Crown Store will most likely mean 0.00001% drop rate in game for the required crafting mats.

SO ya, still pay2win.

As I said I do not agree. We dont know the mats yet all we have are some datamined stuff from month ago or so. We will know Monday what the mats are 100% for sure. You also dont know the drop rate. So Id hold off on the panic just yet.

Teiji

Well done Zenimax, I shall now resubscribe and begin regularly purchasing Crowns.

Very sincerely I ask if I may be so bold; whoever is able, please buy whoever is responsible for these additions to the game a strong drink. An item which will allow us casual players to never fear being unable to do content due to being able to increase our power level at a solid rate is very wonderful.

Xsorus

I may actually have something to spend all those Crown store points i have on.

I think at the start it'll be rare though, and eventually the market will flood with them.

It'll be just another one of those things like Purple food or Drink you gotta have.

MisterBigglesworth

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

That narrow definition doesn't really hold water. If you could buy the best gear in the game from the cash shop or even directly buy champion points with real money that would obviously be p2w... and yet by your definition (you can get that gear in game, you can grind out those CPs in game) it would not be p2w.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

That narrow definition doesn't really hold water. If you could buy the best gear in the game from the cash shop or even directly buy champion points with real money that would obviously be p2w... and yet by your definition (you can get that gear in game, you can grind out those CPs in game) it would not be p2w.

You still have to earn the xp to get those CP. Its not pay to win because you can actually earn MORE CP by using the crafted ones.

Inactive Account

Well lets hope that by the time someone has found / bought all the parts of the recipe, that they will have also found / bought, all the ingredients to make these potions in large enough quantities to be useful. Otherwise, it's off to the Crown Store we go.


This is speculation as we all know

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

That narrow definition doesn't really hold water. If you could buy the best gear in the game from the cash shop or even directly buy champion points with real money that would obviously be p2w... and yet by your definition (you can get that gear in game, you can grind out those CPs in game) it would not be p2w.

You still have to earn the xp to get those CP. Its not pay to win because you can actually earn MORE CP by using the crafted ones.

Again, if the crafted ones are readily available. This remains to be seen.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

That narrow definition doesn't really hold water. If you could buy the best gear in the game from the cash shop or even directly buy champion points with real money that would obviously be p2w... and yet by your definition (you can get that gear in game, you can grind out those CPs in game) it would not be p2w.

You still have to earn the xp to get those CP. Its not pay to win because you can actually earn MORE CP by using the crafted ones.

Again, if the crafted ones are readily available. This remains to be seen.

It doesnt matter if they are more readily available. If they were selling CP then yes thats pay to win. Selling xp boosts you still have to go out and earn those CP. You just earn them faster if you pay for it. Mainly for people who dont have 24/7 to spend in the game.

Armitas

I think they could get the money that they want from this, and close the CP gap if they sold these in seasons based on the CP total statistics.

For example Scroll 1 works for CP 100-150, scroll 2 works for CP 150-200 (numbers for example only). The scrolls could only be used to help players catch up, not get massively ahead of players through money. It's not pay 2 win because it's only helping you keep up, not exceed everyone.

Save face, make money, mitigate the gap, everyone wins.

Exstazik

Finally it will take only 4 months more to grind all CP

DDuke

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Experience Boosters for CP is Pay-2-Win.

Plain and Simple.

I called this when the B2P announcement was made and people said I was a fool for saying so. But just a short couple of months, here we are with boosters for CP available in the Crown Shop.

And as far as the Ambrosia goes.. my bet is the ingredients are so rare that it won't really matter.

From the first announcement they were going b2p they said eventually there would be xp boosts on the store. Since they are in the game also it is NOT pay to win because you dont have to buy them with rl money. You can craft them yourself. You dont have to pay for them. So its not pay to win.

That narrow definition doesn't really hold water. If you could buy the best gear in the game from the cash shop or even directly buy champion points with real money that would obviously be p2w... and yet by your definition (you can get that gear in game, you can grind out those CPs in game) it would not be p2w.

You still have to earn the xp to get those CP. Its not pay to win because you can actually earn MORE CP by using the crafted ones.

Again, if the crafted ones are readily available. This remains to be seen.

It doesnt matter if they are more readily available. If they were selling CP then yes thats pay to win. Selling xp boosts you still have to go out and earn those CP. You just earn them faster if you pay for it. Mainly for people who dont have 24/7 to spend in the game.

If the CP progression wasn't virtually infinite, you'd be correct.

The people who don't play 24/7 aren't going to reap any benefits by this, since there will also be people who do play 24/7 and use those potions. It's a lose-lose, you're simply asking to be able to pay more money to ZOS & as return separate yourself (and other $$$ heroes, regardless of how much they play) from the rest of the population.

Armitas wrote: »

I think they could get the money that they want from this, and close the CP gap if they sold these in seasons based on the CP total statistics.

For example Scroll 1 works for CP 100-150, scroll 2 works for CP 150-200 (numbers for example only). The scrolls could only be used to help players catch up, not get massively ahead of players through money. It's not pay 2 win because it's only helping you keep up, not exceed everyone.

Save face, make money, mitigate the gap, everyone wins.

This works.

Dru1076

This is a good thing, and quite fairly introduced, provided that this recipe is not so rare I never find it. It's only going to be really fair if the recipe is readily available to all.

Exstazik

Dru1076 wrote: »

This is a good thing, and quite fairly introduced, provided that this recipe is not so rare I never find it. It's only going to be really fair if the recipe is readily available to all.

10mil gold will be fair?