We would like more feminine armors

UrQuan

bellanca6561n wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Keron wrote: »

Still, a full plate wearer, no matter the customization and craftsmanship, will drop dead after a 100m-run. Give him 500m if he is highly trained. It's no wonder that heavily armed fighters were usually mounted or using war carriages. Every foot soldier was clad in something like "medium armor", even if that consisted of a mail shirt.

Um, no. You're very very misinformed on this. Full plate weighs less than the full combat gear of most modern soldiers (you're typically looking at roughly 50-60 lbs for full plate, vs around 90-100 lbs for typical modern infantry combat gear). On top of that, unlike mail or modern gear, the weight is relatively evenly distributed around the body, which makes it much less tiring (as long as you're used to it - if you're not then the very fact that you've got added weight on your arms and legs is going to tire you out faster). During the time period when both mail and plate were common, a man wearing plate could wear his armour for much longer than a man wearing mail before being too tired out by the weight to fight effectively, even though the mail typically weighed somewhat less.

If a 120 lb female US Army second lieutenant can run a full marathon (that's 42,195m) wearing an 85 lb bomb suit, a trained knight wearing a 60 lb suit of full plate can definitely run over 500m without dropping dead.

You also have no understanding of medieval warfare if you think that foot soldiers always wore "medium armour" during the era of full plate. Do a little research on the Hundred Years War and the War of the Roses and you'll find that battles often consisted of thousands of men-at-arms on foot in full plate, typically alongside archers and cavalry. Often the majority of the foot were in full plate, and infantry charges (which would be over distances greater than 100m) were common.

Me too, UrQuan....couldn't have made it through school without the middle ages. Oops, picked that up from another of your posts.

But this is a dangerous road. When War of the Roses was released - the game I mean - folks went wild about its realism.

My thought was, oh god, I hope the hell not. I mean, hours and hours of hacking and hewing, trying like mad, using those weapons, to make someone die.

It wasn't pretty or easy. Nor was the game. Imagine this, an online game where it took some work to get an opponent down. Then, for full credit, you had to ram whatever pointed weapon you had into any gap you could find in their helmet - ram right into the eye socket, yes sir!

And, as the victim, you lay there helplessly, hands raised as if pleading for mercy, as you saw the person straddling you body shove a sword into your face as the screen went black.

Oh, what a community builder that tender title was.

Do not imagine, do not entertain the notion that realism is what you want here. It was not an entertainment activity. It was gruesome, it was slow agony in most cases, and it stank.

And the vast majority of soldiers who perished died of disease.

No. Online fantasy roleplaying games are about ritual. And ritual is the enactment of a myth. Thus what we're discussing here is mythology and the imagery that either serves that mythology or detracts from it.

I never played that game, but from your description of it I'm actually very curious to try it. I don't think I'd necessarily enjoy playing it, but I'm sure I'd find it very interesting. I'm much happier playing games with a healthy dose of fantasy in them, but when it comes to a historical game with a high realism component, I'm always curious. Of course, I'm typically the guy who watches Braveheart and complains that the real William Wallace was a noble who wore full armour and such... I have real trouble enjoying any form of entertainment based on actual history if I see anything in it that I know is historically inaccurate. That's a large part of why I usually prefer fantasy for my entertainment

Side note: my all-time favorite air combat game was a World War I dogfighting game for the Amiga (I've long since forgotten the name), and a huge part of why I liked it was because your character, as a pilot, was mostly responsible for the maintenance of his own plane (as was common then), and if you didn't raise your maintenance skill your chances of having things go wrong in-flight were increased. It may be frustrating as hell when your machine guns jam in the middle of a dogfight because you didn't maintain them properly, but dang if that isn't a good reflection of what actually happened!

And yes, I've been a history geek (especially with regards to medieval history) ever since I was a kid. Based on that, maybe it's a little odd that I ended up in an IT career where I could be considered an entirely different type of geek...

I think I recall that game....the part (I think) I remember is that your combat accomplishments were recorded in a diary you kept. Wings, I think it was called.

I worked on Air Warrior for many years and that audience also thought they craved realism. And the subject matter was sacred there too because the appeal of it, for many, was to get just a taste of a harrowing experience that actually happened. The average age of online gamers then was 37 thus they were realistic about what a computer game could deliver.

And, at every Air Warrior Convention, we'd have a pilot who was a veteran of that war. It wasn't easy to convince them always but they were always startled by their reception and the questions asked in the Q&A. They were not expecting "computer gamers" to know so much about history and ask such intelligent questions.

But still you had to be careful with realism...particularly non-tactical realism, nuisance realism, systems management realism or you'd have a customer base of ten.

What was important to get right was aircraft performance. You need to employ the same tactics if you were in a Messerschmitt 109 fighting a Spitfire as the real pilots did. Yes, a Focke Wulf 190 had very high lethality but it couldn't turn with a Spitfire. That sort of thing.

Simulations were the foundation, particularly in high performance graphics and back end technology, of contemporary MMOs. But people nowadays prefer fantasy for many reasons.

And when I hear a fantasy gamer bring up the subject of realism.....yeah....I can feel one of my eyelids start to twitch

Oh, I think you're right, I think it might have been called Wings! There was definitely a diary that recorded your combat achievements in it. I think that's really, really cool that you guys would have a real veteran pilot at those conventions. But yeah, I agree there's definitely such a thing as too much realism in a game. Even in a historical game, let alone a fantasy game!

Rosveen

ChuckyPayne wrote: »

My wife asked me to write to you.

Is there any particular reason why she couldn't come here and say it herself?

The_Drexill

There's hundreds of armor sets in WoW... tons and tons of examples of non plate bikinis. Yeah, grats, you found one... but at least WoW has CHOICE.

Sylveria_Relden

In case you haven't noticed... this is ESO, not "that other game". (That said, since you've got more choice in that other game maybe you should be there and not here? I mean, if you're not satisfied and all that)

As far as "choice" goes- there's plenty of motifs, costumes and other "choices" available already. Sure we could use a few more- but I've yet to see a reasonable argument as to why "chainkini" and "boobplate" should exist in this game.

I agree that the half-naked thing is creepy. This is not Barbies Online- it's ESO, and if you want a game where you can play "dress up"- it's out there already. (try Skyrim with mods, or whatever else you enjoy where you can do the naked thing)

I also agree that beauty doesn't mean skimpily clad armor- and that simple designs and such can subtly bring a different feel and tone. I'd vote for more intricate designs and so forth, but I certainly wouldn't vote for bikini-clad armor just because there's a bunch of pervs who want to see more "skin" in their game.

Sorry if that "offends your sensibilities".

bellanca6561n

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

In case you haven't noticed... this is ESO, not "that other game". (That said, since you've got more choice in that other game maybe you should be there and not here? I mean, if you're not satisfied and all that)

As far as "choice" goes- there's plenty of motifs, costumes and other "choices" available already. Sure we could use a few more- but I've yet to see a reasonable argument as to why "chainkini" and "boobplate" should exist in this game.

I agree that the half-naked thing is creepy. This is not Barbies Online- it's ESO, and if you want a game where you can play "dress up"- it's out there already. (try Skyrim with mods, or whatever else you enjoy where you can do the naked thing)

I also agree that beauty doesn't mean skimpily clad armor- and that simple designs and such can subtly bring a different feel and tone. I'd vote for more intricate designs and so forth, but I certainly wouldn't vote for bikini-clad armor just because there's a bunch of pervs who want to see more "skin" in their game.

Sorry if that "offends your sensibilities".

I think we've covered the reasons on all sides but mostly we've seen where folks' trip wires are.

What stuck me about it all was how emotional a subject this is....I certainly felt it to my surprise.

I never could play that other game because the art style seems a bit Disney-light to me or, rather, what we now associate with Disney. Not Walt Disney who was a singular innovator, constantly imploring the brilliant team of artists he assembled to do better by saying, "Plus it!" constantly when he wasn't satisfied.

It would be inconceivable to me, personally, to regard that image as revealing anything. Hell, they could be nude...they're cartoons....well....to my eye

Clearly MILLIONS of people see it and that game very differently.

MornaBaine

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

In case you haven't noticed... this is ESO, not "that other game". (That said, since you've got more choice in that other game maybe you should be there and not here? I mean, if you're not satisfied and all that)

As far as "choice" goes- there's plenty of motifs, costumes and other "choices" available already. Sure we could use a few more- but I've yet to see a reasonable argument as to why "chainkini" and "boobplate" should exist in this game.

I agree that the half-naked thing is creepy. This is not Barbies Online- it's ESO, and if you want a game where you can play "dress up"- it's out there already. (try Skyrim with mods, or whatever else you enjoy where you can do the naked thing)

I also agree that beauty doesn't mean skimpily clad armor- and that simple designs and such can subtly bring a different feel and tone. I'd vote for more intricate designs and so forth, but I certainly wouldn't vote for bikini-clad armor just because there's a bunch of pervs who want to see more "skin" in their game.

Sorry if that "offends your sensibilities".

I think we've covered the reasons on all sides but mostly we've seen where folks' trip wires are.

What stuck me about it all was how emotional a subject this is....I certainly felt it to my surprise.

I never could play that other game because the art style seems a bit Disney-light to me or, rather, what we now associate with Disney. Not Walt Disney who was a singular innovator, constantly imploring the brilliant team of artists he assembled to do better by saying, "Plus it!" constantly when he wasn't satisfied.

It would be inconceivable to me, personally, to regard that image as revealing anything. Hell, they could be nude...they're cartoons....well....to my eye

Clearly MILLIONS of people see it and that game very differently.

"That Game" was the first MMO I played. I thought it was cute. I now consider it the gateway drug to better MMOs. LOL

Keron

While I think this discussion more or less ran it's course, I am still astonished how adamantly some are opposing freedom of choice. Why do so many feel that the game will be somehow diminished if there would be a choice available to have a more skimpy outfit (and I don't mean the bloodelven plate-kini up there, mind)? Only a choice? If everything stayed the same and a few more options were added on top?

EDIT to make it clear: I'm talking clothing/armor for both genders.

Genomic

I bet you'd see a big difference if you polled EU and NA players separately on the is issue. Europeans generally have less hang ups with seeing the uncovered human body.

MornaBaine

Keron wrote: »

While I think this discussion more or less ran it's course, I am still astonished how adamantly some are opposing freedom of choice. Why do so many feel that the game will be somehow diminished if there would be a choice available to have a more skimpy outfit (and I don't mean the bloodelven plate-kini up there, mind)? Only a choice? If everything stayed the same and a few more options were added on top?

EDIT to make it clear: I'm talking clothing/armor for both genders.

I think there's a bit of a knee jerk reaction to this topic because, as has been shown, there are just so many BAD truly tacky games out there with stripper outfits instead of armor. It's really pretty appalling. I honestly wouldn't care if they ditched the Target style underwear in this game and went for full nudity as long as they didn't give me Sailor Moon Hooker outfits to deal with.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

I like the way the armor looks now...

just add a new racial style that is skimpy armor.

Varicite

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

In case you haven't noticed... this is ESO, not "that other game". (That said, since you've got more choice in that other game maybe you should be there and not here? I mean, if you're not satisfied and all that)

As far as "choice" goes- there's plenty of motifs, costumes and other "choices" available already. Sure we could use a few more- but I've yet to see a reasonable argument as to why "chainkini" and "boobplate" should exist in this game.

I agree that the half-naked thing is creepy. This is not Barbies Online- it's ESO, and if you want a game where you can play "dress up"- it's out there already. (try Skyrim with mods, or whatever else you enjoy where you can do the naked thing)

I also agree that beauty doesn't mean skimpily clad armor- and that simple designs and such can subtly bring a different feel and tone. I'd vote for more intricate designs and so forth, but I certainly wouldn't vote for bikini-clad armor just because there's a bunch of pervs who want to see more "skin" in their game.

Sorry if that "offends your sensibilities".

The problem is that MOST of the available choices are frumpy nun ugly.

And the debate somehow went from "Hey, can we have some clothes that don't look like they were designed by very old, very religious men?" to "If you don't like what there is, you're a *** and should play another game".

What in Nirn...?

Shaarizad

I'm not here to bash people for their personal preferences; I think that more revealing armor can be done well, such as with some Bosmer armor and the old sea drake costume. But I am opposed to the idea of adding chainmail bikinis and magical thong armor into the game, especially when there are so many other MMO's that have it and look so silly. Dark Seducer and Golden Saint armors are already available, and with a solid reasoning for why they exist and why they don't look as functional as other armor.
This may be an MMO, but more than that it's an Elder Scrolls game. If you want more revealing armor, it has to fit the artistic style of The Elder Scrolls.

Ser Lobo

I would also like more masculine body styles and armor too. Stockier, thicker body types would be appreciated.

And as an addition, allowing us to control the 'gravity' of the characters walk/jump/run animations would be an added bonus. A heavy person moves completely differently than a sub-100lb gymnast. Both can be athletic and agile, but their sense of weight and center of gravity are very unique.

MAOofDC

Wintersage wrote: »

I would like more masculine light armor, myself. I'm tired of wearing dresses.

Have you tried the crafted shirt MUCH better than the robes.

bellanca6561n

Well, this little dropped piece can make a person forget the old Orc heavy chest piece.

The Encasement of Anguish....though seeing it on my Templar, Sela, brings me anything but

It looks more a bright, bright silver in the game and makes Selas skin look coal black.

The most provocative example I've seen was on a light skinned Dunmer gal with a Pact tattoo in the center of her chest.

bellanca6561n

MornaBaine wrote: »

"That Game" was the first MMO I played. I thought it was cute. I now consider it the gateway drug to better MMOs. LOL

Well, MornaBaine, I'm 62 and started playing online games in the '80s when they didn't have quests and such and the unique selling point for them was human interaction.

So that game seemed odd to me. It was nothing new but it was perhaps the best engineered summary of the previous 20 years, updated for the audience of the day.

Plus it saved online gaming.

Growth had been flat for years, expansions had proven to not be cost effective for other games. No online game expansion since Ultima Online's Renaissance Edition had actually expanded a game's customer base on a sustained basis.

Things looked pretty bleak. And then "that game" hit. Although I could not endure more than a few minutes of it I certainly respected it.

angelyn

I think I heard in one livestream that the armours are designed for males first and then only slightly altered to then "fit" the female characters models.

Whilst I understand that ZOS need to be economical with their time and resources , this is dissapointing to me.

Perhaps the male player base wouldn't care if armours were first designed for women and then tailored to fit men. I don't know.

What I can see in some dropped armours/costumes is that the female form was actually in mind when designing the gear.

Can you imagine if in real life all women's clothing was only mens clothing that had been slightly altered? I'm not saying you won't get a decent outfit that many people like, but it will certainly narrow down the variety of women's clothes drastically- which is what we currently have in game.

Equally, I think that any character gender should be able to wear any clothes from the game.

I only would like to see more options for all genders that were specifically designed with that body/shape/form in mind, rather than cobbled together from leftovers of someone else's clothes.

If ZOS do this, then there will be more variety and people will be able to truly express their characters in they way they want to. After all one does bond to your character in an MMO.

And of course when designing specifically for the male or female form, there is room for truly beautiful armour.

Personally, I would point ZOS to Game of Thrones for inspiration.There are many different styles across the region's. All of them encompass men and women's armour. However, there is the CHOICE of what you want to wear and for each region the armour is distinct to the form it was designed for:

-I can clad myself in full plate armour like Brienne of tarth. She resembles a knight.
-I can dress in the traditional wildling armour, with heavy furs and a hairstyle to match.
-I can wear armour that perfectly fits both the form and modesty of Catelyn Stark.
-I could wear the desert armour of the people of Dorne which is both light and (pleasing to my character's eye)
- I could wear the pale,fitted leather armour of denaerys targarean.

All in all I'm saying we need more choice and certainly an effort to at least consider the female form when designing. Please stop designing clothes on the male form and then fitting those clothes to female forms.

How bout it @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_TristanK ? I know you be watching game of thrones too and also drooling over the many armours:D

Salkand

Personally I would like to see a lot more realism with online armor.


https://youtu.be/OTGh0EMmMC8

qsnoopyjr

The_Drexill wrote: »

There's hundreds of armor sets in WoW... tons and tons of examples of non plate bikinis. Yeah, grats, you found one... but at least WoW has CHOICE.

Funny, that picture... Looks like an Everquest armor, the high elf EQ armor.... But its World of Warcraft LOL.

But yes, this game lacks feminine armor. Also I feel like it lacks masculine armor too. The armor in this game just feels too "back in the old days" type armor. It's an MMORPG, there's no reason why you cant have some fun type armor. I do feel that the armor as well, is a lot of copy and paste from the previous elder scrolls. I consider them givens, but if that's what you offer its a lil sad, because its copy and paste, what did you do with all the free time after you copy and pasted??

TheShadowScout

Oh, I would definitely wish for many, many more armor styles in the game. And if some developers were to rewatch Game of Thrones to get inspired, well, so much the better! (quick, someone show them the martell/clegane fight, maybe then we'll get polearms too! )

As for realism in online game armor... yes, please. Oh, I wouldn't mind all kinds of skimpy clothing... as long as their armor values are just as skimpy. There is a reason most warriors throughout the last several thousand years have covered their bodies with tougher stuff called armor, no matter if it was layered linen, or tempered steel. And if anyone wants to fight in nothing but blue paint, I wouldn't mind ESO allowing that too... (choose body markings, fight like a naked nord... ) - but I always disliked it when games had a mismatch between visuals and effect. (don't get me started on how the introduction of adaptive armor in SWTOR allowed heavy-armored dancer outfits...)

Hmmm... that gives me something of another idea to add to the ones I had before...
What if each piece of armor was available in two versions to find or craft?
"full-mail" version has the current visuals, and protection....
"half-mail" (the summer version I had been thinking about) has skimpier visuals, sleveless chestpieces, ventillated straps instead of full leather, sandals with smaller plates instead of armored boots, lighter open-faced helmets, or crown-like headgear on light armor, kilt/skirt instead of pants/greaves, that sort of thing... but also sacrifices some armor protection. Say... only has 80% of the full mail version?
Then people could choose if sacrificing a bit of armor was worth the desired visuals. And it should match very well with the "full" version of its style, for people can mix them...

Just an thought...

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO

I just patched.. 2.5 gigs and not one "realistically feminine" armor in the crown store?

What are they doing back there?

Still waiting to spend coins on better looking costumes.

AefionBloodclaw

I think there's this stupid obsession about covering up every inch of skin. Which is fine for full plate or whatever if you're going into battle. But if you're using ranged weapons or stealth, or in a HOT environment, it is completely unrealistic to cover up every inch of skin. Plus, to be honest, most people want to look good as well. So a combination of aesthetic and practical armour is best. ESO does not have that balance.

Personally I think they need, for medium and light armour at least, less outfits that cover up every bloody inch of your skin except your face. As a person who lives in a hot climate, I know this is completely unrealistic and not practical, and really not that attractive either. I would even go as far to say they need to make the MALE armours less all covering. I'm sick of having to look like some beefed up tank all the time, even though I'm a freaking thief/sorcerer.

Wolfshead

Audigy wrote: »

Wolfshead wrote: »

ChuckyPayne wrote: »

My wife asked me to write to you.

As women in general, love to dress up. They like the beautiful feminine clothes. This is same in the game.
Argonian Cloth Lvl1 armor or the Dark Seducer costume is feminine armor.
It was pretty much the lineup the rest of armors is not feminine.

Of course this is a subjective opinion with a woman eye.

Do you have any example on feminine armor??

I'm ok with feminine armor as long it is not some bloody bikini plate armor like in WoW serious i so hate armor look like this

serious that is so bloody stupid.

Ya this picture is a good example that "less" is not always more. As a former BE player I must admit that my chars always had their precious a bit more covered than the young lady on your picture.

Well my point was that many mmo company do make armor for female char to much sexy and basically those armor will not protection the person wear them if was real life and honest you can make female armor look really feminine without make them wear "bloody bikini" armor

MornaBaine

Shaarizad wrote: »

I'm not here to bash people for their personal preferences; I think that more revealing armor can be done well, such as with some Bosmer armor and the old sea drake costume. But I am opposed to the idea of adding chainmail bikinis and magical thong armor into the game, especially when there are so many other MMO's that have it and look so silly. Dark Seducer and Golden Saint armors are already available, and with a solid reasoning for why they exist and why they don't look as functional as other armor.
This may be an MMO, but more than that it's an Elder Scrolls game. If you want more revealing armor, it has to fit the artistic style of The Elder Scrolls.

I agree with what you say but as someone who has read this entire thread I have YET to see a single instance of ANYONE asking for chainmail bikinis or a thong and garter set. Heck, know what I asked for? A full robe with the neckline that already exists on a Bosmer leather top. Scandalous, right? Sorry, but I'm just a little tired of people trying to make an argument that simply doesn't apply.

MornaBaine

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Well, this little dropped piece can make a person forget the old Orc heavy chest piece.

The Encasement of Anguish....though seeing it on my Templar, Sela, brings me anything but

It looks more a bright, bright silver in the game and makes Selas skin look coal black.

The most provocative example I've seen was on a light skinned Dunmer gal with a Pact tattoo in the center of her chest.

You have NO idea how I long for this piece! Which General does it drop from and where?

Parrotbrain

What about just removing all armour (which seems to be a point of contention anyhow), permaundies and the barbie doll models as well, and replacing them with something a bit more realistic? In my opinion that will be case closed, end of story, and everyone will be happy. This is an 18+ rated game now after all.

angelyn

Salkand wrote: »

Personally I would like to see a lot more realism with online armor.

https://youtu.be/OTGh0EMmMC8

Hahahaha !!!!I love this!!! To be honest though as a light armour user I may as well be wearing a chain mail bikini for all the protection it provides:D

Keron

MornaBaine wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Well, this little dropped piece can make a person forget the old Orc heavy chest piece.

The Encasement of Anguish....though seeing it on my Templar, Sela, brings me anything but
<pictures removed for readability>
It looks more a bright, bright silver in the game and makes Selas skin look coal black.

The most provocative example I've seen was on a light skinned Dunmer gal with a Pact tattoo in the center of her chest.

You have NO idea how I long for this piece! Which General does it drop from and where?

I have found it on the very first anchor in Deshaan, with my nightblade, around the time I was level 16. It was restricted to level 18+. I kept it and waited until I could wear it and now I am incredibly happy about that. It is also the only piece of low level equipment I have retained until today.

Sadly, I can't help you with the general's name, but as I think they are kind of region dependent, maybe Deshaan will help you farm it.

MornaBaine

Keron wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Well, this little dropped piece can make a person forget the old Orc heavy chest piece.

The Encasement of Anguish....though seeing it on my Templar, Sela, brings me anything but
<pictures removed for readability>
It looks more a bright, bright silver in the game and makes Selas skin look coal black.

The most provocative example I've seen was on a light skinned Dunmer gal with a Pact tattoo in the center of her chest.

You have NO idea how I long for this piece! Which General does it drop from and where?

I have found it on the very first anchor in Deshaan, with my nightblade, around the time I was level 16. It was restricted to level 18+. I kept it and waited until I could wear it and now I am incredibly happy about that. It is also the only piece of low level equipment I have retained until today.

Sadly, I can't help you with the general's name, but as I think they are kind of region dependent, maybe Deshaan will help you farm it.

Thank you so much. For me, Deshaan is Cadwell's content so it'll be VR gear at least. Yay!

Rosveen

MornaBaine wrote: »

Keron wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Well, this little dropped piece can make a person forget the old Orc heavy chest piece.

The Encasement of Anguish....though seeing it on my Templar, Sela, brings me anything but
<pictures removed for readability>
It looks more a bright, bright silver in the game and makes Selas skin look coal black.

The most provocative example I've seen was on a light skinned Dunmer gal with a Pact tattoo in the center of her chest.

You have NO idea how I long for this piece! Which General does it drop from and where?

I have found it on the very first anchor in Deshaan, with my nightblade, around the time I was level 16. It was restricted to level 18+. I kept it and waited until I could wear it and now I am incredibly happy about that. It is also the only piece of low level equipment I have retained until today.

Sadly, I can't help you with the general's name, but as I think they are kind of region dependent, maybe Deshaan will help you farm it.

Thank you so much. For me, Deshaan is Cadwell's content so it'll be VR gear at least. Yay!

Each pre-vet zone has only 4 generals, but in vet zones all generals can appear at any dolmen. So it won't necessarily be Deshaan for you, it could be any vet zone.