Champion System and XP Feedback

EQBallzz

wraith808 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

HyperToxic wrote: »

Things I have noticed regarding XP that I'm not happy about:

• lower level Veteran rank characters gain more XP and hence CP per mob than veteran V14 characters. (this is likely due to killing mobs at level).

Well, yes. If you're killing things that are lower level than you (1) you should be able to mow through them faster, and (2) they're lower level than you. That's why I'd play above my level in a lot of cases- to get more XP. Need to kill things that are your vet level to get comparable XP. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Now if comparable level mobs were giving disparate XP- that would be a different case. But they aren't as far as I've seen.

Actually that is the case. If you are V14 the only level comparable mobs are in Craglorn and those mobs give puny XP per kill. Like 240xp each. If you go to the V10 zone and kill V10 mobs they give 1250-1850xp per kill for mobs 4 levels below your level. Then head into the public dungeon of the V10 zone which has much harder mobs and each mob kill nets about 240xp and a boss with 250k hp gives 400xp. Their entire scale is completely out of whack.

That's not proof of what you've said. The already nerfed the mobs in the public dungeon because of bots a long time ago. They also nerfed the mobs in craglorn because of the grind. That's a totally different animal.

What I meant by disparate xp- if a VR10 was going against VR10 mobs and not getting the same thing as a VR4 against VR4 mobs... that would be disparate, especially since the leveling was smoothed out.

I know what you said but my point is that a V14 has no level appropriate mobs because they have been nerfed. The leveling doesn't stop at V10. So by design there is disperate XP gain depending on what level you are.

I understand what you're saying, but what you're saying is an indication of a different problem. There are certain places where they have nerfed XP to reduce grinding. There are other VR appropriate mobs in craglorn and in the dungeons- do those give less XP than their lower VR equivalent?

Then this is an argument about the ineffectiveness of the grind nerf more than an argument about disparate XP.

Considering that Craglorn in its entirety is a group zone it's probably more of an argument about there not being *any* level appropriate mobs/zones for max level players. The last solo content zone is for V10. Beyond that you have Craglorn which is all intended for group play.

However, the logic that higher level mobs should award more XP still holds and it should award even more if it's intended for groups. If Craglorn is meant to be done in a group then why do the mobs award such small XP amounts? Shouldn't it award larger XP amounts? They are higher level. They are much more difficult. They should award more XP regardless if killed solo or in a group.

wraith808

EQBallzz wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

HyperToxic wrote: »

Things I have noticed regarding XP that I'm not happy about:

• lower level Veteran rank characters gain more XP and hence CP per mob than veteran V14 characters. (this is likely due to killing mobs at level).

Well, yes. If you're killing things that are lower level than you (1) you should be able to mow through them faster, and (2) they're lower level than you. That's why I'd play above my level in a lot of cases- to get more XP. Need to kill things that are your vet level to get comparable XP. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Now if comparable level mobs were giving disparate XP- that would be a different case. But they aren't as far as I've seen.

Actually that is the case. If you are V14 the only level comparable mobs are in Craglorn and those mobs give puny XP per kill. Like 240xp each. If you go to the V10 zone and kill V10 mobs they give 1250-1850xp per kill for mobs 4 levels below your level. Then head into the public dungeon of the V10 zone which has much harder mobs and each mob kill nets about 240xp and a boss with 250k hp gives 400xp. Their entire scale is completely out of whack.

That's not proof of what you've said. The already nerfed the mobs in the public dungeon because of bots a long time ago. They also nerfed the mobs in craglorn because of the grind. That's a totally different animal.

What I meant by disparate xp- if a VR10 was going against VR10 mobs and not getting the same thing as a VR4 against VR4 mobs... that would be disparate, especially since the leveling was smoothed out.

I know what you said but my point is that a V14 has no level appropriate mobs because they have been nerfed. The leveling doesn't stop at V10. So by design there is disperate XP gain depending on what level you are.

I understand what you're saying, but what you're saying is an indication of a different problem. There are certain places where they have nerfed XP to reduce grinding. There are other VR appropriate mobs in craglorn and in the dungeons- do those give less XP than their lower VR equivalent?

Then this is an argument about the ineffectiveness of the grind nerf more than an argument about disparate XP.

Considering that Craglorn in its entirety is a group zone it's probably more of an argument about there not being *any* level appropriate mobs/zones for max level players. The last solo content zone is for V10. Beyond that you have Craglorn which is all intended for group play.

However, the logic that higher level mobs should award more XP still holds and it should award even more if it's intended for groups. If Craglorn is meant to be done in a group then why do the mobs award such small XP amounts? Shouldn't it award larger XP amounts? They are higher level. They are much more difficult. They should award more XP regardless if killed solo or in a group.

They nerfed that for a particular reason. Not sure why it is such a larger problem in ESO than other games- but grinding kills the content and the leveling curve. You can get *really* efficient, if you want to do it. Using that as a baseline for saying that experience is messed up is a texas sharpshooter argument.

The real problem here is that they nerfed XP in certain areas to combat different problems (bots, grinders) and the relative reward because of that in that one area is lessened, making the content worthless to do.

That's what needs to be addressed. Especially with the Champion System in place. Hopefully nerfing the XP on the mobs was a short term solution, and they have something in their back pocket that they can pull out.

olsborg

I personally find xp in pvp to be too little compared to what I can "grind" in pve. Also dungeons/delves (solo) does not give adequate xp at my level vr14 compared to overland, whats my incentive to go dungeon crawlin? very little.

(once youve already killed the boss in that dungeon)

Zheg

@ZOS_GinaBruno could we get an update soon on what the plan is for xp? The massive crag nerfs went into effect about a week ago, though veteran xp provided for playing the game vs. what's needed to level has been off-balance for a lot longer. I'm holding off on leveling any alt through the veteran ranks because if I go out and do most of the content and end up gaining a level or two, it's not like I can re-run that content when you fix xp rewards and I should be gaining multiple levels for doing the same content.

What I'm looking for is basically, "we're working on the xp numbers now and should have something pushed out shortly, so hold off on wasting your time leveling through veteran ranks right now", or "we're looking at making incremental changes to xp over the course of the next few months/weeks, so if you want to play with your veteran character at v14 go ahead and start grinding".

Just a general direction of what the devs' intentions are, and whether the timeline looks more like a hotfix, waiting until 1.7, or waiting until 1.8 and beyond would be much appreciated.

I_killed_Vivec

wraith808 wrote: »

They nerfed that for a particular reason. Not sure why it is such a larger problem in ESO than other games- but grinding kills the content and the leveling curve. You can get *really* efficient, if you want to do it. Using that as a baseline for saying that experience is messed up is a texas sharpshooter argument.

The real problem here is that they nerfed XP in certain areas to combat different problems (bots, grinders) and the relative reward because of that in that one area is lessened, making the content worthless to do.

That's what needs to be addressed. Especially with the Champion System in place. Hopefully nerfing the XP on the mobs was a short term solution, and they have something in their back pocket that they can pull out.

The problem of nerfing XP in certain areas (Craglorn) to combat grinders is compounded by the fact that for a lot of people there is nothing left to do but grind. The lack of new content hurts.

The other problem is that if they reduce the XP required by the Champion System so that "normal" players get a sense of progression then this will be exploited by the grinders and exploiters. Before CS came out, there was the fuss about how many points players should get and ZOS were concerned about "player separation". Well they certainly have player separation now with some people gaining 10CP a day while others struggle to get one.

Helluin

The biggest problem of Champion System is that a player who wants to be still competitive with the grinders, who are giving the pace to a server as in every MMO, has to play contents he/she doesn't like.
This nowadays seems to be fine but in the long run will drive many players to quit because in a game a player wants to have fun with the contents he/she prefers.

About the system and grinders giving the pace, I see several analogies with the rank PvP 14 in vanilla WoW, but gladly Blizzard's devs eliminated it (not just because of gameplay but also because of the effects of that system on certain players); this was also around 10 years ago and the lesson should be learned by now.
As a system is clearly not working and that's why a weekly/monthly cap would help otherwise PvP campaigns should have a CP cap so a player can select a campaign with the proper lvl of opponents.

This topic by @AbraXuSeXile is a perfect example of the situation for PvP but it can be applied also to group PvE (dungeons, DSA, trials).
I agree with everything he wrote and he arised some issues similar to the final fall of Warhammer Online after the Skaven patch.

Nowadays to grind is the best way to gain exp and this should be solved.
Amongst every grinding activities, the most effective one is to use an alt not VR14 and this, as it was written many times on PTS, is another big problem since alting should be an option, not a must.
There are many players who want to focus on their main character and enjoy PvE and PvP conetnts and they are penalized for that since they can't gain the same exp of an alt that grinds exp.

OtarTheMad

You guys need to make leveling a second thought in players minds. Is it such a big deal if someone hits VR 14 before they finish all the vet zones?

If players are checking how close they are to leveling every 15 minutes or so then that means they aren't really having fun. Example would be if you have people constantly checking the clock at work then that usually means they are not focused on the job nor having fun doing it.

Leveling was a second thought in Skyrim (I know... not MMO... hear me out). You could just do Misc. quests or maybe RP a bit or a lot.... or you could just dungeon dive and level that way. It didn't matter, leveling was an after thought because you were having fun and focused on other stuff... and with this leveling just flew by because you were immersed in the game. I have, currently, a level 45 in that game... max level is 80 I think still and that character has only completed 2 questlines. I have so much more content to finish and will probably hit max level before I finish it all... which is awesome. Leveling is quicker but that's perfectly fine with all the things you can do.

You don't have that in this game. The VR zones are a grind, PvP doesn't wield great XP either so getting to VR 14 once you hit VR 1 is just like pounding your head against a wall. The starter zones, in my opinion, are fun... could do those all day because leveling is an after thought in those zones... however it just takes so long in the VR zones and the XP is not good enough.

My opinion- raise XP in vet zones by a good amount, give more for World Bosses and Dolmens. Also raise XP in PvP as well. It might not help that the VR zones are just the other factions' zones instead of something unique to your faction. Nothing like the Mages Guild. Fighters Guild or Main Questline to break up the quests so pretty much all your thinking is "get through this zone quickly and I might be another VR level". I think if you threw in a unique storyline to the vet zones, maybe another daedric prince wants to take over where Molag Bol failed... and/or maybe a Guild questline that is unique and exclusive to the VR zones, continuation of the two earlier ones or introduce Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

Xalyron

I agree that grinding is no doubt a part of each and every MMO out there but .. not every aspect of grinding is in the best benefit of the game. well, want us to mindlessly grind? Ok, we grind for gear ,we grind for money, that's no problem. The choice is for the player to make. but grind for character main progressions Exp or CP that's not ESO that you promised from the first day. this way -as I see it- you are killing the fun in the game. please kill the mindless grinding in your game or provide solid alternatives and not just concerning the champion system but the game as a whole.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

People who are grinding 24/7 are getting huge advantages over those who can't pleas apply diminishing returns to ALL mobs and then increase their xp back to original amounts or more.

Most people play the game as intended and are punished because we are doing quests and delves in Craglorn and getting CRAP for CP because you nerfed the xp due to grinders. This is UNFAIR to those who play the game normally.

Seeking to punish or stop grinders you have FAILED, I understood it to be a quick bandaide fix but it is getting silly now because these grinders have just moved to V10 areas and continue to exploit mob packs while those of us doing quests, dailies dungeons and trials get punished for the mess they left behind.

Applying diminishing returns to all mobs will:

A ) Reward players for doing diverse tasks.
B ) Prevent exploiting mob grinds.

mlstevens42_ESO

Mob grinding is a viable way to play the game. Get over the fact that people are going grind. Just how many times do you think any one wants to run through the flipping story. There really isn't anything else to do if one does not grind something or other. If they do all dailies or do writs or do dungeons without writs or do trails every day it is a type of grinding. Killing the same mobs over and over is going to happen due to the simple facts, if they have already gone through the story least once and do not pvp, are not in a guild doing dungeons or trials that leaves them nothing else to do if the want cp. Doesn't matter why they might want them they do so they grind to get exp to get cp's that is all there is to it.

I have already completed the story with FOUR Charectors. Four clear through the stupid silver and gold and to be honest I do not really want to do it again. I am since it gives me less grind I have to do but really. Just what do you think I am going to do to get over 3k cp's.

As long as it is not an actual exploit (and just killing mobs is not an exploit) I should be able to get exp how I want to.

As for this one or that one having more time to get xp that is another get over it thing. Some get ahead in the real world by working extra hours or what not they are paid because they work. This is a similar sort of idea they put in more time so they should have more cp's then someone who does not have time or chooses to do something else with their time.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Agreed mob grinding is PART of the game, but we shouldn't be forced into doing it because it is by far the best CP gain is ridiculous.

Just add diminishing returns to mob types and set it at intervals that evens it out in relation to questing. Problem solved.

HyperToxic

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Agreed mob grinding is PART of the game, but we shouldn't be forced into doing it because it is by far the best CP gain is ridiculous.

Just add diminishing returns to mob types and set it at intervals that evens it out in relation to questing. Problem solved.

Not everyone wants to quest with their fourth of fifth character, especially if they already completed all the content.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Who said you have to quest? That doesn't even make sense.

mlstevens42_ESO

It is likely they are referring to the ways to get exp for cp one way is to grind another way is to quest and yes after a couple of times questing does get old if they are always the same thing. Had there been a new zone or something it would have been different. I know I do not want to do these quests any more but it is one of the quicker ways to get cp at this time. So yes chars five and six will probably be run through even if I am bored to tears by it now. Grinding is boring also especially if you are doing it alone. Still it will get done to gain what I want to gain money exp whatever.

The point is getting cp at a decent rate for doing different things we do rather then one or two ways really. Making it easier for those with less time would be nice as well so they would have less reason to feel they are being left in the dust but that is another topic.

I still am not sold on the dim returns train. Just feel with the troubles that they have had with other systems working right it would be easier to cap cp per d/w/m whichever. I would rather they keep it simple and get it right then have something with potential to be more trouble. Just looking at the trouble with cs coming out for example some getting to much some not getting any and so on leads me to think this solution would work better. Some might reach their cap more quickly then others and that is about all I would think could happen. If they took my suggestion I think daily would work best as then people would have a reason to log in daily but that is an opinion.

Avindra

What about if they speed up CP XP gains and just make it for that character instead of account wide ?

If ZOS doesnt want to speed it up because you only have to grind the CP out once they could do it this way.
The CP system is the same type of system that is in many games except ZOS made it feel like work.

This way you wont have non vets being overpowered in Blackwater due to CP gained from their Vets because they cant earn any CP until they are a vet on that character.

Vanguard1

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Tell us what's been frustrating you, and we'll do our best to address it. Just remember to stay constructive and respectful - you're allowed to not like something, but tell us why and what we can do to make it better.

The fundamental problem for me: there's no viable NON-GROUP way to get XP.

Yes, it's an MMO, but NO, I want to be able to progress when it suits me not when it suits a bunch of others at the same time. Your plans do nothing for me, you're still fixated on 1990s-group-or-die methods of character progression beyond VR10.

The only way I can get CP at VR10 is to grind mobs and you're doing NOTHING to help that, at all. No one's running Craglorn any more even if I were inclined to group up for very point of XP I can get. Craglorn is a ghost-land now, except for 'hot' grinding spots, questing is dead as are the dungeons, I've looked and nothing.

I completely agree, not everyone has time for groups. I personally find that I have to walk away from the computer frequently and am unable to stay in a group for long periods. Craglorn is someplace I hardly ever visit due to everything being group content. I like the new champion system and the constant updates to the game; however, I still feel that a big piece is missing from this MMO. The game is constantly improving and we should all be grateful for that, I personally feel the developers are doing a good job. That said, the problem with this and many MMO's is often changes are made to make PVP/PVE better as a whole and it hurts the other one. For example when you nerf one move because of it's power in PVP, it doesn't mean that the move was overpowered in PVE.
I have suggested in the past on the forums that instead of nerfing abilities, you increase other classes to be on par. This avoids complaints and keeps the masses happy. The biggest two problems I have in this game, and that will affect how long I continue to play is the leveling process. Its perfect from level 1-50, however, once you hit the vet levels it takes way to long to get to V14. Grinding was a good option at one point but that is obviously been changed. It would be one thing if you played a Dark elf and the story was different when you played a dragon knight. Unfortunately once you have gone through the game once, it just a rinse and repeat and feels more like a horrible grinding process, that you force yourself to do so you can have alts. It becomes very easy to lose interest and not playing for days over frustration happens a lot .
The second problem is the lack of an auction house, the trading guilds are nice; however, other than selling items, there's not enough members allowed in a guild to promote competition or having everything a person would need. Traveling around tamriel for one item just doesn't make sense. It is still much easier to spam chat and get better deals, as well as faster finding an item you want. I felt from day one this should have been an item included in this game. I do completely realize that the point is to keep rare items rare; however, you have accomplished that through the farming and crafting percentages that are in place. The lack of an Auction house was not needed to do that, nor should it have been avoided, it made it look like the developers just didn't want to do the work.
In conclusion, I admit I am not so well known in this game that I hear everyone's opinion, although I have watched, read, and listened to a lot of complaints since beta, and these two items have been the biggest problems from day one. I did not mind leveling the first character though everything and it taking the time it did. I did feel that instead of switching to vet levels it should have just went to level 80 to make it feel more like level 50 was just part way there. A lot of people thought they were about done when they hit level 50 and did not completely understand the vet level system at first. Many thought the other areas were optional, in the fact that they would be able to do end game content from there and gain vet levels. I still believe adjusting how long it takes to level and being able to level Champion points solo will make a lot of people come back with the changes you have made to the game. It would be great to have an Auction house, it would also be great to be able to craft jewelry. For me with the speed at which you add content, and adding them few changes this game would be one of the best MMO's ever.

Naor_Sarethi

Cadwells Silver & Gold is a lazy joke. The CP system as such is fine by me, except for the fact that the areas i can make progress are filled with quests i absolutely hate and simply won't do. So basically it's delve/ world boss etc grinding and nothing more. Not boring but still alot less than i would expect from the devs.

Olysja

lol, with champion system we speak about endgame, no sense talk about quests, i had 100% quests of this game after 20 days of gameplay. So let's focus on the champion system not like a ''MUST REROLL'' or ''MUST GRING OLD CONTENTS TARDS MOBS'' but as something that complete your end game experience, and for ENDGAME i mean PvP and Trials (veteran doung aswell why not). You launched this game with 2 pvp trailers, total war etx and then you force players to reroll or grind like inside a *** korean mmo, guys we are here cause we like the ES lore aswell, and we like to COMPLETE ONE SINGLE character without make a second one. So it's not acceptable that pvp grants 1CP in 6-7 hours , Trials/v14Vet 1CP each 4-5h while Grind a tard spot 1cp/h & rerolling 1,5cp/h. you are FORCING players to a)play a really bad&boring ingame experience with grinding /rerolling b)ignoring the CP system for the next 30/60days then quit cause 500+ CP will make the difference in pvp c) quit already like many done. i really hope that you will fix this lack of experience for the many players that are playing and paying from 300days this game and probably will play till they reach 2k+ CP points if you give them the possibility to gain more than 1-2 each day with end game contents. really if i do only 2-3CPs/day and playing 13/17h in pvp each day, what do you think will happen when in May some1 will have 700+CPs grinding v10 snakes and i'll (as many others) have just 200 ? the answer is easy, as i said before, many will quits. fix it

Skafsgaard

for some reason, the XP bar towards my new Champion Rank is not synched between my main (v14) and my alt (v4). The ranks are the same now - but the bar sits in different places. So if I make 25% progression on my main, I dont see it on my alt, he has his own progression toward new point - this is how it is supposed to be?

firewatch

Skafsgaard wrote: »

for some reason, the XP bar towards my new Champion Rank is not synched between my main (v14) and my alt (v4). The ranks are the same now - but the bar sits in different places. So if I make 25% progression on my main, I dont see it on my alt, he has his own progression toward new point - this is how it is supposed to be?

This is how mine works also. They both use the same enlightenment pool, but their CP experience is independent.

Enodoc

Skafsgaard wrote: »

for some reason, the XP bar towards my new Champion Rank is not synched between my main (v14) and my alt (v4). The ranks are the same now - but the bar sits in different places. So if I make 25% progression on my main, I dont see it on my alt, he has his own progression toward new point - this is how it is supposed to be?

Yep, that's right. Each character progresses to a CP individually; only once a CP is earned does it go account-wide.

kojou

I was thinking about a good way to respond to this thread, and the idea occurred to me. The reason I don't like the Champion System is because to me it is not part of fun game play. It is "administrative overhead" for my character. Sure it is fun to play around with the points, do a little math, and try to maximize the damage caused by my favorite skills, but then what? There is nothing my main character hasn't killed 5 times. So he kills something a sixth time, but this time 5% faster... for a little xp... and that is getting boring fast.

Here are my suggestions to make getting champion points more fun while waiting for the next new zone:

- Increase the difficulty by 300% of all monsters and such in Craglorn and increase the XP to good levels to scale with the difficulty. Think about making all VR14 as well...

- Make all "Group" dungeons playable with parties of 2 to 4. Sometimes it is hard to get that last player or 2 to start a dungeon and I waste a lot of time spamming chat for a healer. If you can't scale the dungeon maybe you can have a merchant that will sell you up to 2 mercenary contracts for gold for the NPC warrior, mage, or mender you need to get started with the dungeon kind of like PvP contracts in the old days.

- Also make DSA scale from 2-4 players or have the same mercenary contracts.

- Add a delve with a monster of the week. Make a small cave in Craglorn that is solo instanced where each week there is a different insanely hard VR14 boss (you can reuse dungeon and trials bosses scaled to one player) to kill. Make that boss have a 100% chance to drop a good piece of unique armor (i.e. similar to 2 piece monster sets and not a sturdy piece of medium undaunted infiltrator).

- Make strong daedra bosses randomly appear out of cold harbor and cause havoc in the various zones. Give xp points based on the amount of the zones population you save from doom and how many bosses you kill.

Travnastyness

I have no problem with the champion point system or the rate at which xp is gained for it at this is meant to give small gains over time to encourage end game 'leveling." The "grind" that I do have a problem with is not gaining CPs while leveling characters to level 50. I see no reason why pre VR characters should not earn CPs for leveling.

I also have a problem grinding to VR 14. Number one there is not enough content, or at least interesting and fun content, to do so. And number two the grinding locations which could greatly decrease this time consuming process continually get xp nerfs. If grinding is to be discouraged then turning in quests should receive a massive experience boost in order to compensate.

I understand that TES series has always been about story and the journey, however this is still an MMO and MMOs are all about end game content. The continual nerfing of xp and increasing the max level of VR continually creates a barrier for those players who do not have the time to grind to VR 14 for 2-3 hours a day. The bottom line here is...shorten the grind expand the content.

Spuddlethud

The XP gain issues in ESO have been a problem for quite some time. The biggest problem I see right now is attempts at quick fixes to prevent certain behaviors from happening. Public Dungeons saw a total reduction, Rkundzelft saw specific mobs reduced to prevent grinds, then all of Craglorn. I understand why it was done, but they've been arbitrary decisions that punish all users, not just the ones that you want to behave differently.

My suggestions...

First, reset XP across every mob in every zone. Use a consistent method of calculating the XP across the board. It should be a combination of mob HP, special capabilities, DPS, and other factors as needed. That formula would then be applied universally to all mobs. This would prevent a common overland giant or mammoth from being the same XP value as a group boss. (It would also prevent some humanoid archer mobs from being only worth 22xp for some unknown reason.) In other words, the strength/difficulty of the mobs should be directly related to their XP value. I'm sure there are enough old school pen and paper D&D geeks out there that could give you some pretty simple methods for figuring this out. They've only had around 40+ years experience doing it right.

Second, to prevent grinding areas, I suggest a spawn point XP adjustment calculation. Here's how it would work: data would be recorded as each toon kills a mob. A simple dataset would be created that would contain something like SpawnPointID, CharacterID, Timestamp, and kill count. When a character kills a mob a record would be created that would include each of those fields. From there, each time a kill occurs for that specific spawn point, the kill count would tick up (though the timestamp would remain in place to represent the initial kill). From there you set a countdown of sorts. Kills 1-3 would be 100% of the normal XP. Kills 4-5 50%, then anything beyond that would be 0 XP. The kill counter could only be reset to 0 at 8, 12, or 24hrs after the initial timestamp passes. This would prevent grinding all together as there would be no point in killing the same mob at the same spawn point over and over again. A lot of data I know, but not anything crazier than what you already have to track. It might also require adjusting spawn rates, but that's a tweak after the initial implementation.

Third, apply the logic stated in my second comment to overland areas (including group bosses & delves) and public dungeons only. For group delves and any other dungeon that is instanced to a group, you would either simply not apply the logic above, or simply not allow a respawn within a certain time after the clear. Dolmens would be treated as a single spawn point for each clearing. So you'd get XP for all of the mobs like you do now, but the count would only occur when the dolmen closes each time. You'd probably want it to only allow 2-3 though. In addition, any group that a character joins would suffer the same reduction in XP of the most "penalized" character.

Fourth, dramatically increase the XP gained for PVP. I'm not a PVPer currently, but I was early on. It's ridiculous to expect a PVP focused player to be able to level at a reasonable rate without quality XP gains. Player kills, keep & resource acquisitions, bounties, and defense should all give XP and should be significant. It should also be level / rank based. A V14 should be worth a lot more than a V2. An emperor should be the most valuable. A legate should be worth more than a major, a major worth more than a captain, etc.

The bottom line is that all RPG's are based on a system of rewards. Levels via XP, gear, etc. For it to work right it should make sense to the average player. If I kill a world boss I should get a lot more XP than if I kill a mudcrab. If I kill a pack of 6 scorpions in Craglorn it should be worth more XP than discovering a wayshrine.
Similarly you have created a situation where there is no good reason to run a public dungeon. Sure you can get a skill point and an achievement if you wipe the whole zone, but you can get both of those things a heck of a lot easier in many other ways. Doing an entire PD and getting less XP than you might get at a Dolmen just doesn't pass the laugh test. Now you've made most of Craglorn the same way. I cleared the majority of two group delves with my wife this evening in a little over an hour, but gained a lot less XP than simply spending 45 minutes in a V10 zone.

Don't minimize the importance of getting the XP system right in this game. The animators and audio team have done great work for now, but it's time to book some hours on the base mechanics again.

...and thanks again for listening to our feedback. We all want this game to succeed for the long haul!

Olysja

so, can you do something before there will be an abyss between endgame players and simple grinders or? already 80-100 CPs difference between those 2 categories, and there are so many ideas and informations on this thread, some fast fixes aswell. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Skafsgaard

firewatch wrote: »

Skafsgaard wrote: »

for some reason, the XP bar towards my new Champion Rank is not synched between my main (v14) and my alt (v4). The ranks are the same now - but the bar sits in different places. So if I make 25% progression on my main, I dont see it on my alt, he has his own progression toward new point - this is how it is supposed to be?

This is how mine works also. They both use the same enlightenment pool, but their CP experience is independent.

Enodoc wrote: »

Skafsgaard wrote: »

for some reason, the XP bar towards my new Champion Rank is not synched between my main (v14) and my alt (v4). The ranks are the same now - but the bar sits in different places. So if I make 25% progression on my main, I dont see it on my alt, he has his own progression toward new point - this is how it is supposed to be?

Yep, that's right. Each character progresses to a CP individually; only once a CP is earned does it go account-wide.

Thanks for clearing this up! It has been bugging me for a while, if it was WAD or not! Awesome guys

Seth_Black

Champion system is really great and if it has some hiccups ...that's normal for every new feature.
Only thing I find really messy is passive bonuses and ways to reach them.
In every constellation I can find something useful and great passive bonus to unlock, but to get it I need to invest sometimes in things I don't really need or use.
I know it's mostly because of endless possibilities for builds and ways we play our characters ...and I really get it making this thing really optimal involves a lot of hard work.
There was probably at some point in designing it an idea to group similar bonuses under one sign.
All I want is just to understand why not doing it this way? Would be way easier to focus on one sign to gain bonuses we want and see real effects instantly ...and then consider other signs and bonuses?
Or was this making characters too powerful too fast?

I'm looking forward to limitations in exp gains towards cp. This will make chances to stay on similar cp level for all players (addicted maniacs playing 20 hours a day, and working, aka having normal life, people that play 4-5 hours a day maybe)
If CP progression will be similar for everyone maybe grinding exp for cp after enlightenment ends won't be so much fun for all addicts and they will focus on other (also fun) aspects of the game?

kojou

I liked some of Spuddlethud's ideas and agree with a lot of what he said.

Another thought I had for new content to gain champion points that should be fairly easy to implement...

Have a cave or grotto like DSA except make the spawn rate quick and infinite, and basically have a scoring system that rewards you based on how many kills you get before you die with the design being that you are going to die as it scales exponentially to 100's of elite bosses if you last long enough.

It would use mixtures of all the various humans and creatures at the character's level and keep getting harder and reward more XP the longer you last.

You could even put in a leader board for the top ten scores and give special prizes to them.

This would give people that want to "grind" rather than quest a more challenging and fun way to do it rather than wreck the questing areas grinding all the NPCs for people that want to actually do the story lines with some level of immersion.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

-Non-repeatable content (most quests) Large exp boost, will make 1-50 faster and make v1-14 faster. would also help with the CP gain issues.

-Daily quests (writs, dungeons, pvp kill) significant exp boost, rewards players for doing actual content they already do, but doesn't really allow for abuse to get tons of CP

-repeatable quests (other pvp quests) exp boost, they tend to require work and would especially benefit pvp

-Increase exp in group content, but specifically clearing it, so final bosses in dungeons/trials. If you increase all boss exp, players will just find the fastest boss to kill in the right dungeon and then farm it without completing the full content. But by increasing the final boss exp it rewards actual play.

- Mob exp could be increased, but you would need to disproportionally increase the respawn times. mobs related to quests should be left completely alone to not impact normal play. increasing respawn times will make it so pure grinding doesn't get out of hand, but playing through normal content will be more rewarding. Same could also be applied to world bosses.

-pvp probably needs a 10-20% increase in exp for all non-quest activities, then again it always has and we have said as much.

I have already started to see some botting coming back, not on the scale previously, but players using significant automated scripts. which is another reason to be concerned with grinding cp potential. caps may be necessary, but only ZoS has access to the figures for gains and spreads.

Although a more elegant solution to fix many problems would be to make enlightenment begin scaling based on player base CP averages. basically the higher the cp rank of the player base as a whole gets, players with lower cp ranks will get more enlightenment exp allotted to them. the numbers can be tuned to minimize the current gaps, and also the system would allow new players to actually catch up.

or you can sell enlightenment potions in the crown store for people below certain cp ranks. which is probably what you will do and just ignore everything above this.

And I'm not even going to get started on how unbalanced the system itself is.... right now I'd rather have functioning pvp, a better exp system, and a few less bugs.

Avindra

Seth_Black wrote: »

If CP progression will be similar for everyone maybe grinding exp for cp after enlightenment ends won't be so much fun for all addicts and they will focus on other (also fun) aspects of the game?

What makes everyone think that mob grinding isnt fun for some players ?
If you take the chance for players to level how they want to they wont "focus on other aspects of the game" they will leave.