Champion System and XP Feedback

wraith808

Avindra wrote: »

Seth_Black wrote: »

If CP progression will be similar for everyone maybe grinding exp for cp after enlightenment ends won't be so much fun for all addicts and they will focus on other (also fun) aspects of the game?

What makes everyone think that mob grinding isnt fun for some players ?
If you take the chance for players to level how they want to they wont "focus on other aspects of the game" they will leave.

No one has said take out grinding or do anything particular towards that group. Well... almost no one. The only thing we want is the disparity between PvE questing, PvE grinding, and PvP to be addressed, so that the reward for all is approximately the same over time.

kojou

wraith808 wrote: »

Avindra wrote: »

Seth_Black wrote: »

If CP progression will be similar for everyone maybe grinding exp for cp after enlightenment ends won't be so much fun for all addicts and they will focus on other (also fun) aspects of the game?

What makes everyone think that mob grinding isnt fun for some players ?
If you take the chance for players to level how they want to they wont "focus on other aspects of the game" they will leave.

No one has said take out grinding or do anything particular towards that group. Well... almost no one. The only thing we want is the disparity between PvE questing, PvE grinding, and PvP to be addressed, so that the reward for all is approximately the same over time.

My problem isn't with the grinding itself, but how it ruins the game when you want to do a quest and there is a group running around casting AoE skills killing everything in sight.

That's why I suggested that ZOS just needs to add a grinding dungeon/delve for those players so they will leave the rest of the map alone so people that want to do public dungeons and such can do them and enjoy doing them as they were intended instead of walking through piles of dead bodies and clicking "E" on the next quest objective.

The objective should be to allow players that want to get a certain number of CP on their main, or have a new healer, or a new tank character (assuming their first was DPS) a fun way to level up and gain CP efficiently without breaking the game for everybody else who wants to do the rest of the content as intended.

Ysne58

The exp gain in levels 1 to 49 is too fast and in vet levels way, way, way, way too slow.

I absolutely hate seeing white quests and getting 0 xp for mobs when I'm completing those. At least give 1 xp per mob when they are more than 5 levels below, then I wouldn't feel so bad about that piece. Take out the feature that changes quests from yellow to green to white and grey. That would also make most completionists happier.

Seth_Black

Avindra wrote: »

What makes everyone think that mob grinding isnt fun for some players ?
If you take the chance for players to level how they want to they wont "focus on other aspects of the game" they will leave.

1. Go to Spellscar in Craglorn (tell me guys farming there are QUESTING)
2. Clearing trash in trials up to first boss, going out to reset and again... (another mindless grind)
3. Skyreach Catacombs ...do I need to comment on that?

A LOT of players goes for mindless grind just to get higher champion rank.
So why they should go do anything else if they can level this almost in their in sleep.
Craglorn zone chat: 'LF mob grind or catacombs' - usual message except for gold key pledges
Maybe it's not fun but still really stupid way to get ahead with champion ranks.

DeLindsay

Now that Brain Wheeler is boosting PvP XP when will we see other devs start boosting XP in other playstyles in ESO (except grinding) and when we will see ZoS STOP nerfing Grinding XP further?

wraith808

DeLindsay wrote: »

Now that Brain Wheeler is boosting PvP XP when will we see other devs start boosting XP in other playstyles in ESO (except grinding) and when we will see ZoS STOP nerfing Grinding XP further?

When other forms of play give the same rewards as grinding, I'd suppose.

maryriv

The biggest problem is people who grind getting a huge advantage over those who quest and do dungeons. I agree with the poster above about putting diminishing returns on things.

Think about it, if you do something over and over again you learn less and less as less new information is provided, sure you get better but its at a much slower rate.

Seth_Black

I've tested this yesterday night.
My vet14 NB solo in Craglorn

1. Started mindless grind in spellscar - BOOM! Champion Point
2. Moving on to soloing 'big elites' - BOOM! Champion Point
3. Soloed Hyrcine's Haunt with killing every single walking exp on my way to the delve (not using shrines)
ended up with plenty of ore, wood, plants, herbs, water, runes, gold and wait ...I forgot
...another champion point.

All based on insanely op 2h build spamming only 2 abilities ALL THE TIME.
Doing it with only one eye open and barely awake (2-4am). Could do it faster without chatting over TS with guild mates

Results: NO FUN at all (no finesse in killing big mobs or dungeon bosses, victory doesn't even feel rewarding) but hey! 3CP earned. YAY! (?) right?

Proven point: as long as you can switch your brain off for a few hours you can get as many CP as enlightenment allows ...ALONE

P.S. Don't forget, that you can ALWAYS do all repeatable quests in craglorn (but you will need at least one more person for it) and it gives way more exp

DHale

I want everyone to remember this was a game that allowed you to play the way you wanted. If you want to quest... quest if you want to grind... grind. I have not done one trial and I have played the game probably 400 plus hours. If I was ZOS I would change Boss mechanics every week so be glad I am not in charge. Try waiting at spot x for the lamia to spawn in SO when it appears in the middle of the other 11 ppl. This is not a game where I tell you how to play and you tell me how to play. Grinding should be available to those that want to and good quests with good XP should be available to those that want to play this way. Both are repetitive so quit trying to tell other people what they need to be doing. I wanted to get to VR 14 so I could quit chasing armor and weapons and just get one or two sets. That is how I want to play the game. Quit being paternalists and nannies. If you want immersion go jump in a lake or take a long bath. I grinded in Spell scar for MANY hours I never saw ONE quester. The quest take 20 minutes from beginning to end… ridiculous. But what I did see was lots of people who wanted to “help” us get XP, swell!

Lifsteinn

I believe ESO should have a level cap obtainable in 2 or 3 months of average gameplay, so would be something near 180 hours of gameplay.

And after that level cap, you should focus in your favorite content, would that be PvE or PvP, and the game should provide you fun moments with friends and another players, not more leveling!

Usually MMOs use items (gear, weapons, armors, etc) for that matter, you go for Trials, Dungeons or Adventure Zones and acquire more PvE gear, so you feel that your character is progressing. Or you go for Cyrodiil and acquire PvP gear, for the same reason. And in later contents and future patches you add more strong gear, like a "season" system. In order to new players can get even with old players, you either can make old items easier to obtain.

What is NOT fun is to grind. Champion Points are now a huge grind, this only make characters with a lot of played time stronger and bored.

You should feel challenged to complete the most difficult tasks in order to be stronger, and that should require a group of friends to be done, either PvE or PvP. That is a good MMO.

Beleron

Please read this to the end. It is a personal opinion however many also feel this way.

Gina, ZOS, the big fail and issue is that ITS EVEN FROM EXP AT ALL.
That fact means that you get CP and become stronger by GRINDING exp, the fastest way possible.

Getting CP and becoming stronger should happen from a CHALLENGE. By completing achievements, doing vet dungeons, doing dsa, trials. Or in pvp through defending or taking a keep. Not simply through how many quests you can do the fastest, or how long you can stand to grind for.

The system is flawed and in punishing for those whom want to challenge themselves in dsa, and such, not grind. Those whom do challenging content, in the end, get the short end of the stick.

CP's should max out when you hit v14. (max level) They need to ONLY be to customize your roll in a group, or in a fight. Heals, dps, support, ect. Using the points to define and strengthen what you want to do. More so creating a larger difference between tanks and healers, ect.

You where trying to use CP to give us actual character progression past v14. We get that, or atleast I do. However what we DID NOT WANT, is a never ending system that will just create a hellish gap, a system many will never reach the end of. We wanted PROGRESSION. Harder bosses, harder raids, better gear, with different bonuses, ect. Like other mmorpgs t1 t2 t3 gear.

Simply just make all dungeons, reg or vet modes, have easy or hard mode. Easy = casuals can see content, but not much loot. Hard = great loot but harder fights. Then give us gear with, healing power bonuses, crit multiplier bonus, ect, more of that, outside of from set bonuses. So we can build up, and move onto getting better gear.

CP really just needed to be a system that farther helped us define our roll as tank, heal, dps, ranged dps, magica tank, ect, w/e you want. Not a system that never ended. It also needed to come from hard work. Achievements, dungeons, ect, not from just basic exp.

Kragorn

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We can tell you that we are planning to adjust XP that you receive from dungeons and Trials so they offer a more viable way to level and/or receive Champion Points.

This is welcome news but what about craglorn itself? I mean since craglorn hit it's been nothing more than a mob grind zone.

Well, actually no, when it first landed it was a great XP zone as well but then ZOS nerfed 'crystals' to Oblivion to force players into dungeons/delves .. which they then proceeded to nerf as well.

ZOS are the entire cause of this, they provided content that had viable means of getting XP then destroyed them because SHOCK HORROR people were actually LEVELING!

I'd really love to know the breakdown of VR14s before and after the mega XP nerfbat hit after a couple of weeks or so of Craglorn appearing, I suspect the numbers of VR14 leveled after the nerfs dropped off a cliff, the majority of VR14s were in at the start and able to abuse the 'exploits' ZOS nerfbatted to extinction.

It's now laughable ZOS are scrabbling around trying to undo the damage the pointless XP nerfs caused in the first place.

Rust_in_Peace

I think you should be able to grind Champion Points if you want but I think there needs to be greater incentive to get them through conventional means as well.

For example:

- Achievements. This has been mentioned before many times but think of this as another vote. The catch it that you are still limited to 3600 points and can get them all through grinding if you want but this becomes an alternate way to do the same thing. eg. You do Aetherian Archive the first time and you get a Champion Point for it. You also get x amount of exp for the time you spent in that trial.

- End of Campaign rewards. Break it up into the reward tiers that already exist by say 10 - 5 - 1 or create more tiers since it's fairly easy to cap out at the tier 3 reward especially in a 30 day campaign. I have a feeling that even with the exp buffs PVP will still be a slower route to getting Champion Points than grinding or doing trials so this will create a greater incentive for PVPers to feel like they aren't gimping themselves by not doing PVE for Champion Points.

- Crafting! Yes, get Champion Points from crafting and its achievements. Crafting is a big part of this game and requires a lot of time invested. Some of those Champion Points in the Thief tree aren't combat related so why is the only way to get Champion points related to fighting?

I like this game but right now it feels like the only way to get CP consistently is to just go full zombie mode and grind mobs endlessly. I don't mind some grinding, I find it relaxing, but it gets boring and it isn't what I want to spend the majority of my time in the game doing.

hazune

After update 2.0.2, Zenimax up exp from trial mobs.1100%
Killing trash mobs first Hel Ra. We get about 10 thousand exp points. For the whole pact to 1 boss gain approx. 15% of the Champion point exp


the same with AA and Sancutm. At Dragon Arena exp no problems there is not raised.


It turns out that it is now getting out more exp than to exploit catakumb after the start uprade 6. Zenimax please quick response, faster than your last, exploit oil painting created by you.

sorry for language mistakes

Enodoc

hazune wrote: »

After update 2.0.2, Zenimax up exp from trial mobs.1100%
Killing trash mobs first Hel Ra. We get about 10 thousand exp points. For the whole pact to 1 boss gain approx. 15% of the Champion point exp


the same with AA and Sancutm. At Dragon Arena exp no problems there is not raised.


It turns out that it is now getting out more exp than to exploit catakumb after the start uprade 6. Zenimax please quick response, faster than your last, exploit oil painting created by you.

sorry for language mistakes

The increase to Trials XP is supposed to make it more viable compared to grinding. The 1100% increase was intended and implemented as planned, so I don't see the problem.

Kragorn

Enodoc wrote: »

hazune wrote: »

After update 2.0.2, Zenimax up exp from trial mobs.1100%
Killing trash mobs first Hel Ra. We get about 10 thousand exp points. For the whole pact to 1 boss gain approx. 15% of the Champion point exp


the same with AA and Sancutm. At Dragon Arena exp no problems there is not raised.


It turns out that it is now getting out more exp than to exploit catakumb after the start uprade 6. Zenimax please quick response, faster than your last, exploit oil painting created by you.

sorry for language mistakes

The increase to Trials XP is supposed to make it more viable compared to grinding. The 1100% increase was intended and implemented as planned, so I don't see the problem.

The problem quite simply seems to be you can get 15% of a CP from the first set of trash mobs in an infinitely resettable instance. To me that's a HUGE problem and one which in the past caused ZOS to nerf to the ground anywhere it helped non-groupers: seems yet again it's 1990s group-or-die time.

Also here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160399/15-cp-in-5-minutes-in-hrc-grind-on#latest

Enodoc

Kragorn wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

hazune wrote: »

After update 2.0.2, Zenimax up exp from trial mobs.1100%
Killing trash mobs first Hel Ra. We get about 10 thousand exp points. For the whole pact to 1 boss gain approx. 15% of the Champion point exp


the same with AA and Sancutm. At Dragon Arena exp no problems there is not raised.


It turns out that it is now getting out more exp than to exploit catakumb after the start uprade 6. Zenimax please quick response, faster than your last, exploit oil painting created by you.

sorry for language mistakes

The increase to Trials XP is supposed to make it more viable compared to grinding. The 1100% increase was intended and implemented as planned, so I don't see the problem.

The problem quite simply seems to be you can get 15% of a CP from the first set of trash mobs in an infinitely resettable instance. To me that's a HUGE problem and one which in the past caused ZOS to nerf to the ground anywhere it helped non-groupers: seems yet again it's 1990s group-or-die time.

Also here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160399/15-cp-in-5-minutes-in-hrc-grind-on#latest

Ah OK, I guess that is a problem Seems they forgot how many trash mobs they had in their instances or something. Potential fixes without reverting the purpose of the XP change:

• Make it so you can only get into a Trial if you are in a full group of 12.
• Make it so once you have entered a Trial, you cannot enter that Trial again for a while.
• Remove those first trash mobs completely.
• Reduce the trash mob XP, but increase the boss and adds XP to compensate.
• Put diminishing returns on XP granted from the same type of mob.

Kragorn

Seems ZOS screwed up again here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160458/hotfix-3-24-trials-xp-changes

wraith808

Kragorn wrote: »

Seems ZOS screwed up again here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160458/hotfix-3-24-trials-xp-changes

That looks like it's already fixed...?

Enodoc

wraith808 wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Seems ZOS screwed up again here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160458/hotfix-3-24-trials-xp-changes

That looks like it's already fixed...?

I assume @Kragorn is referring to the fact that their "fix" is just to set 1100% -> 200% and nothing else.

Hopefully now they've addressed the exploitable bit, they can think about something for the long term like the suggestions above, which will stop the exploiting while still maintaining the reason behind the XP increase; getting more XP for a full Trial run. Restrictions on entry seem like the best solution to me.

Helluin

But for the XP gain, are you still evaluating a changement about a catching up system for new and returning players?
Are you still evaluating a changement on the curve of diminishing returns?

These matters, especially when related to PvP, are really important.
In my guild - community, some players have just returned to TESO and are deciding what to do, other ones are still evaluating the situation and reading feedbacks, active ones have some doubts about it.
We have a PvP focus and infact, for a competitive PvP enviroment, these issues are major ones.

The decision to stick to another BtP MMO with 3 alliances (without penalties when away or when starting it as a new player), to wait for the release of a new MMO still with 3 factions/realms or to stay/return/start TESO is really tied to these features.
I know this is a general gameplay mechanic, so I would have avoided this question for the ESO Live with @ZOS_BrianWheeler , but it has an huge impact on PvP and players' decisions.
Atm infact the champion system mechanic and its future impact on PvP is the reason because we are quite sceptical about TESO in the long run as guild.

Because of the same reasons, I think that the stored enlightenment of 12 days should be raised (at least 24 days or 30).

Navaya

None likes a game where you have to mindless farm for hours, day after day just to keep up. We should be awarded by playing the game and not just killing the same mobs over and over again.

Have more ways of earning XP.
If you deconstruct something or craft something, you should gain experience.
Make the quests give more experience. I think the daily quests give around 5k-10k.. which is just a waste of time to do when it's compared to farming.
For pvp, if we take a keep then give us XP equal to a Quest XP reward(which first should be buffed)

We want to be rewarded when completing objectives and not from mindless farming. So nerf the XP gain gained from killing normal mobs and increase xp gain from bosses, quests and other objectives.

jeskah

Too much focus on champion system IMHO, veteran leveleing should be adressed too - leveling an alt is a pain in the ass, well, at least for me. Suggestion: make enlightenment work with veteran XP too please.

Zheg

@ZOS_GinaBruno would it be possible to get an update this week? This thread was opened weeks ago and the xp for veteran levels remains unnecessarily painful. There's been at least a few threads that stay bumped on the general forums complaining about this very topic, not to mention the larger threads from a few weeks ago that have died out.

I know you guys like incremental changes where possible, but leveling through the veteran ranks since 1.6 has been brutal - and frankly it doesn't make sense for this to be worse than it was at launch considering the fact that you acknowledge the veteran system is deeply flawed and is going to be removed in a few months.

I see two problems on your plate: how to prevent people from grinding mass amounts of CP, and how to keep these safeguards from ruining the veteran leveling process.

At this stage, I don't think you can shift CP gains away from veteran xp. Therefore, I'd suggest making one-time reward activities (dolmen, delve, WB, quests, and initial veteran dungeon completion) worth far more xp than they are currently worth. Players looking to farm CP wouldn't be able to reap the gains more than once, so it stops the grinding you're so concerned with but would actually allow veteran characters to level up at a decent pace. For 6+ months you could take your veteran from 1 to 12/14 in less than a week. Now it takes you 6+ months (ok... exaggeration ).

The bump in pvp XP still isn't enough, and the trials XP bump doesn't help veteran leveling. I know you guys have an XP potion in the works, but you're losing a lot of good will because of this problem, and the only solution cannot be a cash shop item.

ElliottXO

And trial XP is back to worthless again. 70k for a completion with 12 people while a mob grinder gets 400k.

I strongly disagree that 1 CP per day is an appropriate increase for normal players. My sub is gone until this is addressed.

NewBlacksmurf

Feedback in general.
- I like the champion system but I do desire for the system to be THE system and convert the VR levels that appear on characters into the champion levels. For instance the conversion that was done seemed to be 5 champion levels for 1 VR level. While actual exp now is 1 VR level to every 8-10 champion levels it would seem doable to convert the item requirements into this as well.

- I like how the champion system is account wide at post 50 exp gained
- I do desire that in some way the removal of the VR indicator on characters will cause some type of skill, stat increase in a per character situation so as to allow non VR14 characters to grow up.
- OR
- Adjust the champion skills to replace the skills/stat point gains that occur at a per VR level gain. Whatever follows the progression that your taking when removing the VR level indicator.
- I would like the champion skills to have a greater impact per point instead of diminishing returns. (Even tho an account could become too powerful, maybe there is another way to make adjustments)
-
All in all I'm glad that this happened but there is a bigger issue at hand which the champion system only applies to exp gained and a new point to use. It doesn't feel totally emerged into the game yet.

Sethro_27

I love it. The experience gains and point porgession is awesome! It's at a really nice pace I just can't find out how many points we get per constellation set. So far my experience made me love the game more! Spellcrafting will send me to the moon!

Cherryblossom

So can someone explain how an new player can ever catch up with a player who plays in a similar way but has been playing longer but has 1000CP.

I do not understand how there will not be a continual gap between players as those ahead will always be ahead! At least with vertical progression there is a cap which everyone will hit until there is an increase, but CP is billed as Horizontal progression which suggests continual improvement, which I assume means you will be adding new skill lines and new abilities overtime.

I understand you may add diminishing returns but when do they kick in? 100 CP, 1000 CP whichever it is, this still means a huge gap between new players and people who have been playing for a long period of time, which I see no actual way to close!

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Cherryblossom wrote: »

I understand you may add diminishing returns but when do they kick in? 100 CP, 1000 CP whichever it is, this still means a huge gap between new players and people who have been playing for a long period of time, which I see no actual way to close!

The system ALREADY has DR in it, very noticeably, have you not even bothered to look at the system as it is? Put 10 points into something, note the % buff, now add another 10, look at the % again, put another 10
in, look again.

People are freaking out of the number of CPs and totally ignoring (or more likely CHOOSING to ignore) the NUMBERS which those CPs represent.

/shakeshead

Fissh

3600 is alot of Champion Points to earn. I think a fair average of earning for regular players is 1-1.5 a day. This comes out to be 5-7 years of gameplay. Ok, so that is for all of them. How about if you want just magicka end things? I estimate 2400 covers that, which would include pvp type bonuses as well. That is still 4 years to achieve.

I am completely game for some horizontal progression, but 4-7 years? No. Lets be a bit more reasonable on long term goals. Additionally, what of the players that start topping these years worth of CP numbers and a new person starts playing? This new person will be completely discouraged to play. The gap should in fact be there, but not a 4-7 year gap. It really is quite silly in the long term.

Suggestions for rate of CP:
- 5-10 a day should be norm. Enlightment buffed up to last for 5 points worth would be a great start.
- Trails and daily pledges, to include all trials (so 3), should award a flat champion point per day or week. That is 5 (2 pledges of normal/vet, all 3 trials) champion points you could earn while participating in "endgame". This in itself will boost the Trial participation by miles, as currently it is not really worth doing Trials....at all (gear needs to compare to Cryodiil's Light, Ravager, Morug Tong and the such with Pwr/Resource/Crit meta priority as not to force pve'ers to pvp).
- PvP quest turn-ins worth a flat Champion Point comparable to the trial/pledge CP turnins.
- Start the earning process a LEVEL ONE. Not only does this add to the earning process when we roll alts, but helps close the gap for new players just beginning. Currently, once I am done maxing out an alt, I have to go through 50 levels with a new alt to begin "horizontally" progressing again. That encourages 1-50 grind over enjoying the storyline questing again. I wouldnt mind experiencing the story again with the new facial expressions, but currently wouldn't dare take that time from my already minimal CP gain of a day.

Summary: Boost the gain by miles!!! Then the daunting task of such a thing is not actually discouraging.