Champion System and XP Feedback

Daeth

Stop nerfing all the decent experience locations and actually boost the experience in other parts of the game (notably dungeons and PvP - actual PvP, not quests in PvP... that's not what PvP'ers want to be doing in this game). You know, actually promoting grouping and large scale content in a MMO, crazy right?

Over the past two days, I think I got about 10% of a CP. It was ridiculously slow. Considering you need about 1k CP to reach diminishing returns, how about significantly boosting the CP gain until that point, then slowing it right down for higher points. This will also stop the big influx of new players you have hitting a brick wall where no one will want them in groups or PvP until they hit 1k CP.

Alphashado

I agree with many points already made. Give us incentive to repeat old/existing content rather than grind.

MASSIVELY increase XP for dungeons and Cyrodiil.

I love the dungeons in ESO. They are very well designed, thought out, and fun to play. The very major problem is there is very little incentive to repeat them in regards to earning XP/CP.

You get 11k XP for the undaunted quest, and there are two major problems with this:

1. It takes 20 mins to an hour to complete a dungeon, and the quest awards a measly 11k XP. You can earn 11k XP in 5 mins or less by grinding almost any mob in the game.
2. You can only do this once per day.

Same thing applies to Cyrodiil. The main reason it is dead and will be even worse with the Champion System is the fact that the XP is terrible there. I've seen moderator posts suggesting that internal tests have shown that xp gain is just fine in Cyrodiil. How did you come to this conclusion? It is terrible. The only way you can earn XP in Cyrodiil that even comes remotely close to PvE is if you are fortunate enough to be in a perfect group that absolutely dominates everything in it's path. And even then it's still sub-par to grinding or even questing in PvE. Two things that would dramatically help this problem:

1. Restore all of the quests in Cyrodiil to the original design at launch when every pvp/pve quest was repeatable, and there were no class-specific restrictions on them.
2. DRASTICALLY increase the amount of XP earned by player kills, objectives, and Keep capture/defense.


In a nutshell: STOP nerfing grind spots. This isn't the core of the problem, and it's not a fix or a solution to the problem. The problem is we need incentive to want to repeat dungeons and play in Cyrodiil. Make these wonderful aspects of the game worthwhile and you will see a flood of people eagerly returning to them rather than grinding.

Preyfar

I just wish Craglorn dailies offered more of a way to get CP XP. It's hard as hell finding people to group with as it is. I've been playing since launch, and I *still* have not been able to complete Craglorn's story because I can't find four people at any given point who are on the same area of the quest I'm at to be able to do it, let alone the Missing Guardian's requirements.

Nobody does Craglorn quests.

Helluin

The problem of quests in PvP is also to deliver them: you should be able to do so within a keep.
Another option is to eliminate those quests and increase a lot the amount of earned XP as written by Alphashado.

Faugaun

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@Faugaun if people wouldn't just move to the next thing that offers fun and rewarding gameplay for hours on end, you might have a point. For short bursts of fun there's already the casual market, for 1h sessions the single player market and the MMO market's audience always was the reality fugitives, where even casuals put in longer than 1h sessions once in a while.

Besides, you save money by cutting costs, but you make money by spening money. But that's something apparently many have forgotten as well.

So I agree completely ....I'm talking a shift from 4+ hour daily sessions to 1-3 hour sessions...and spending money does not implicitely mean that you will make money...though often times initial sound investments can give good returns. I can think of at least one failed mmo that would have done much better if they had invested in additional staff and marketing and by releasing good quality content.

Enodoc wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Pulling these out of another thread:

Enodoc wrote: »

[Paraphrased:] Disable all Champion Passives in Cyrodiil.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

PVP should be about skilled competition, may the best man (or woman) win, not "I cheat/grind the same mobs until I run out of energy drinks to stroke an unfair advantage like it was the same as skill."
ZOS, make it so.

3 day cap is too short, next week I go on vacation (out of the country for a week and I feel bad because I will miss out on cp)....30 days is much more reasonable for banked enlightenment.

DHale

I have my opinions as do we all. I don’t think mine is any more or less valid than anyone else. That said, I think limiting enlightened CP to one per day is not going to help anything. There is already ppl that grinded them out which anyone could have done and now have an extra 20-50. Some have a hundred (or more). I watched one streamer on Twtich get one about every 15 minutes easily. I wished I could have done the grinding myself but was never enlightened for any length of time while he had been enlightened since the patch while I was enlightened for a few minutes then it would "fade". I have one since the patch, weee 71. I did not think it would be worth grinding when not enlightened. Nerfing grinding is also not the answer and I think both questing and grinding are boring but grinding sure is low risk and high reward. Taking 3200 and dividing it by any variable could take someone a year or more to acquire them all. You do not have a year of conent to deliver us. You need to make questing a viable thing if that is what you want us to do and all the nerfs to Craglorn indicate that you do. I actually now get more XP in the VR1 area than in the VR 13 area and that is not a good thing IMO. Some of us want to get to min max to be effective in raids dungeons and PVP. Let’s face it getting 300 gold and 300 xp to complete a quest is ridiculous. Lastly, I love a lot of the changes so it’s more good than bad. I am disappointed that the bugs are so prevalent and that lag on Thorn is even worse than well... ever but some of the changes are great. What I do want to complain about is you have made healing a ridiculous feat. To heal effectively in most of the dungeons and pledges you must have enough resources to keep the healing on the group and yourself which is far less than it was before. Doing 20 k damage in one shot cannot be healed through. At most I can heal for 5k in most situations reliably. My healer (when I went to DPS) had to spam breath of life 9 times in a row to fill our health as we were taking damage. Now when I tried to heal I was constantly out of magicka and had to spam… run out of magicka then regen then spam again and consume lots of pots. I have gotten hit with instant 20k damage from bosses in PVE frequently now as I need to be in Light Armor which now means no protection whatsoever. I assume once I have enough CP this will be addressed but that is a long long ways away. What will I do if you have taken my ability to be effective I guess I will quest out the areas and heal thyself?

AD Templar VR 14 with 71 CP.

Attorneyatlawl

washlov wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

washlov wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Make the system finishable within a reasonable time or you alienate your current and future playerbase.

It's not a system that's intended to be finished. How this is such a difficult concept to understand for so many people baffles me.

its a system for 24/7 farmers it feels like work
all things which does not give max xp now feel worthless
a game should be there to play not to worry about stats the hole time

No it's a system that passively progresses as you play the game as you otherwise would. If you or anyone else treats it like a race to some sort of end goal you're doing it wrong, simple as that. I haven't gained one single CP since update 6 launched and I'm content.

yea a system which gives passives and is linear and has no char individualization destroys the hole fairnes of the game and makes it to a 24/7 chinagrinder
the system runs on XP and not passively in the background

It's not linear. There are many, many equally good ways to spend your champion points that help shape and complement your build.

Enodoc

Helluin wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Then it's a problem for the reasons really well and carefully explained by @Mystikkal .

Sure, I was just saying what the system currently was, not that it isn't a problem.

Personally I think the cap should be at least 14 days, and that Enlightenment itself should give no more than a 3x bonus.

wraith808

Add a reason to go back to earlier dolmens and dungeons (though undaunted has helped a bit with the latter), by giving a daily or weekly bonus to experience for first completion during that period.

Faugaun

Daeth wrote: »

Stop nerfing all the decent experience locations and actually boost the experience in other parts of the game (notably dungeons and PvP - actual PvP, not quests in PvP... that's not what PvP'ers want to be doing in this game). You know, actually promoting grouping and large scale content in a MMO, crazy right?

Over the past two days, I think I got about 10% of a CP. It was ridiculously slow. Considering you need about 1k CP to reach diminishing returns, how about significantly boosting the CP gain until that point, then slowing it right down for higher points. This will also stop the big influx of new players you have hitting a brick wall where no one will want them in groups or PvP until they hit 1k CP.

@Daeth Diminishing returns are effective at your second cp in a star....by the time you've got 1k points the diminish is more linear ....check some of the graphs at the calculators at http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/

@zos another idea to help on the content front would be a repeatable quest system similar to TSW, every quest was repeatable in the entire game but they all also had cooldowns to prevent abuse. I think cooldowns varied from 24-72hours depending on the quest if memory serves...

Repeatable quests would go a long way here to address the complaints of players who "don't have anything to do because they have already completed all of the quest content and thus feel gimped and like their only progression route is to grind" ....it also would allow players to help friends or lower level players and not feel like they are getting no value for their time away from grinding (or whatever their progression technique is). The repeatable content while not as good as new content in player eyes is probably better than tedious grinding. This also could go very nicely with the plan that future content will scale to your level ....if older content could be made to retroactively scale to you then it also could provide challenging content in all areas of the world.

demenzia

Just limit the number of points you can get per week and make it reasonably low, and let players get them the way they want (grinding, questing, pvp). Personally I was glad when skyreach was nerfed, so I could continue to enjoy extremely laggy pvp without thinking that I lose time to get as many CP as I can. However grinding is more fun than the boring quests in Cyrodiil or other zones and I don't really understand why I should do all these quests over and over again. I have had enough of them since early access. Give me the new content or boost the experience we can get in pvp.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just wanted to let you all know that we're going to go through your concerns and suggestions today and pass them along to the team. We'll let you know as soon as we have an update on any of these items. Thanks again for posting here, guys.

washlov

thx and pls dont forget PVP only fair pvp is fun and good

Jando

This is my opinion (and I apologize for the Wall of Text):


The Problems With Champion System:

1. The system is an endless grind because each point is too expensive (in xp), each point is too weak in what it offers, and there are too many points in total.

2. The conversion of VR level to Champion points is fundamentally flawed because it fails to consider completed quest content. As such, there is no way for many Veteran players to participate in the system because they have exhausted the quest content that grants the chunks of xp needed to advance in the system.

3. There's too much inconsistency in the way that XP is gained and therefore the way that CP's are granted. This, coupled with the other problems, forces players to endlessly grind PVE mobs to maximize CP gain.

4. The Champion System is not a suitable replacement for Veteran Ranks because it is even more grindy and slower than veteran ranks ever were.

The bottom line is that it's too slow to be engaging or even fun.

A Proposed Solution

I think the Champion System would be quite fun, engaging, even addictive if they made the following changes:

1. Reduced the number of Champion Points from 3600 to 1200. This reduction in total number of points would make each point feel more powerful and exciting.

2. Reduce the cost of each CP to somewhere between 10,000 - 50,000 XP - not accounting for enlightenment. Why 10-50K xp per CP? If you take the total number of XP needed to go from VR1 to VR14 (13,000,000 xp), and divide that by 1,200 - the total number of Champion Points I propose - you get: 10,833. I believe the amount of time it takes to "max your character out" in the VR system is an appropriate amount of xp to base the Champion System on.

In short, I am proposing that we break up the current Veteran Rank progression - which we all know feels horribly grindy and unrewarding - into 1200 micro installments, each a Champion Point. Champion Points might also be given out as rewards for completing certain in-game goals in PVP and PVE content, crafting, and achievements. At the end of the system your character is a "Champion of Tamriel".

I see nothing wrong with the fact that it would be relatively easy for people to become a Champion. In fact, that's exactly what I am going for. I do not want an endless system. Endless systems are not viable because they also have to be worthless in order to avoid extensive player separation. I would rather have a system that I can complete in a reasonable amount of time, one that is constantly rewarding me with powerful passives, and that pushes me to become a Champion. This will also have the added benefit of reducing player separation which will allow developers to properly balance end-game content.

Will there still be “grinders” that burn through the system in a couple of days or a week? Yes, but if that’s what they want to do, then so be it. It makes sense that there might be a cap on daily Champion Point gain. Maybe even a very high cap, like 50-100 a day to keep the grinders reasonably in check.

Should this system be account wide? I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m leaning towards no. Or perhaps after your first Champion you start gaining CP's from level 1.

Is it too late to make the change? No.

For those people that think I am "missing the point" of the Champion System because it is supposed to support a revenue model based on ESO+ Subs and XP Booster Sales, I say "shame on you for supporting the grind". Instead, the revenue model for the game should be based on sales of reasonably priced new PVE and PVP content, player services like: barbershop, race changes, alliance transfers (limited of course), and some limited items that are purely for convenience like: inventory upgrades, mount leveling, and research boosters.

Finally, there has been some suggestions on the forum about having CP's gained similar to how Ultimate is gained (sorry i don't remember who initially suggested it). I agree that might also be a very viable option that could solve a lot of these problems.

Mystikkal

Faugaun wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@Faugaun if people wouldn't just move to the next thing that offers fun and rewarding gameplay for hours on end, you might have a point. For short bursts of fun there's already the casual market, for 1h sessions the single player market and the MMO market's audience always was the reality fugitives, where even casuals put in longer than 1h sessions once in a while.

Besides, you save money by cutting costs, but you make money by spening money. But that's something apparently many have forgotten as well.

So I agree completely ....I'm talking a shift from 4+ hour daily sessions to 1-3 hour sessions...and spending money does not implicitely mean that you will make money...though often times initial sound investments can give good returns. I can think of at least one failed mmo that would have done much better if they had invested in additional staff and marketing and by releasing good quality content.

Enodoc wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Pulling these out of another thread:

Enodoc wrote: »

[Paraphrased:] Disable all Champion Passives in Cyrodiil.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

PVP should be about skilled competition, may the best man (or woman) win, not "I cheat/grind the same mobs until I run out of energy drinks to stroke an unfair advantage like it was the same as skill."
ZOS, make it so.

3 day cap is too short, next week I go on vacation (out of the country for a week and I feel bad because I will miss out on cp)....30 days is much more reasonable for banked enlightenment.

Agree 3 days is too short; I'd say it saves for a week, maybe 2. You don't want a game to encourage ppl to never take a few days away for real life activities. But a month is too long; you should have to be pretty committed to the game on a routine basis.

P.s. the move from 4 levels of enlightment to 1 level of enlightment was a good change. If it was 4 levels; you would be encouraging everyone to gain 400K regular XP (or 1.6M enlightment XP) every day; that's a lot for the casual gamer.

Sasky

First, I think ZOS needs to define what they want the champion system to be clearly: how long to max (for 1%, 5%, 10%, etc), how long to earn CP, and how much/little of a power gap they want. Similarly to a power gap is how easy they want to make catching up. There are lots of conflicting suggestions, because people have wildy different interpretations of what CP and enlightenment should be.

My premises:
1) Some vertical progression is good, as it is much more rewarding to see your character growing stronger over time.
2) A huge power difference is toxic
2a) Some kind of diminishing return is necessary to curb people grinding.
2b) Some kind of boost is necessary to keep new players interested and not see an insurmountable power wall.
3) Players who've spent more time will be better anyways as they know how to play.
4) The champion system is intended to run over months

Proposal:
First, do a bit more basic leveling of XP/hour so that say the median XP/hr is the same between different activities. This should probably be 2x-4x the current rate, because as others have noted it's abysmally low.

Second, change enlightenment to be straight-up a method to close the gap in XP by adjusting the modifier based on how many points you have. Also make it always on. The top end have diminishing returns. This will primarily be players who like to grind out ahead to cap. (Note: nothing really will prevent that except a hard cap.)

Sample breakdown:
Top 1% in CP amount have a multiplier of 0.1x for 'enlightenment'
1-5% have a multiplier of 0.5x for 'enlightenment'
5-15% have a multiplier of 1x
15-40% have a multiplier of 3x
40-65% have a multiplier of 6x
65-90% have 9x
90-100% have 12x

Note: exclude accounts without any VR so that the 12x kicks in right when your character hits 50.

These are example numbers and can be tweaked as necessary. In fact, they should be tweaked based on how well they meet targets for time to max CP, time for a new player to catchup to 75%, and power spread of active player base.

Advantages:
1) Introducing a soft cap of sorts for the highest XP earned. You won't be able to prevent every grind -- as soon as one's nerfed, the next pops up. By building into the game to handle those, it's not as big of a deal when there are grinds.
2) Allowing catchup for new players / a higher rate for players with lower playtime.
3) Keep the overall XP gain high to allow easy leveling of skills and through VR. Presumably VR are going away, so don't make it hard to go through them now.

BergisMacBride

1. Increase XP in PvP, such that an average PvPer can gain CP at a rate comparable to PvE activities. This should be you number one priority for your PvP community.

2. Decrease XP required for a CP, or better yet increase the world XP back towards prenerf levels.

3. Increase enlightenment bonus to 3CP per day - one turn around the wheel.

4. Increase the enlightenment cap to at least 7 days per account.

5. I'm fine with increasing the XP in trials and dungeons, even though I don't do them. Give the primarily solo players at max VR rank a repeatable way to earn open world XPCP on a daily basis - Justice XP, crafting writs, reincrease grind XP, new repeatable quests.

6. Increase open world quest XP (and therefore XPCP) for those leveling through Cadwell's.

If you're concerned that any of these things may lead to a significant disparity in CPs among players, then either put a weekly cap(make it somewhat high though) on CPs or create a mechanism for new players or those who don't play as often a means to earn CPs at a faster rate for limited amounts of time - call it super enlightenment or something similar.

That's all I have at the moment.

Faugaun

Mystikkal wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@Faugaun if people wouldn't just move to the next thing that offers fun and rewarding gameplay for hours on end, you might have a point. For short bursts of fun there's already the casual market, for 1h sessions the single player market and the MMO market's audience always was the reality fugitives, where even casuals put in longer than 1h sessions once in a while.

Besides, you save money by cutting costs, but you make money by spening money. But that's something apparently many have forgotten as well.

So I agree completely ....I'm talking a shift from 4+ hour daily sessions to 1-3 hour sessions...and spending money does not implicitely mean that you will make money...though often times initial sound investments can give good returns. I can think of at least one failed mmo that would have done much better if they had invested in additional staff and marketing and by releasing good quality content.

Enodoc wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Pulling these out of another thread:

Enodoc wrote: »

[Paraphrased:] Disable all Champion Passives in Cyrodiil.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

PVP should be about skilled competition, may the best man (or woman) win, not "I cheat/grind the same mobs until I run out of energy drinks to stroke an unfair advantage like it was the same as skill."
ZOS, make it so.

3 day cap is too short, next week I go on vacation (out of the country for a week and I feel bad because I will miss out on cp)....30 days is much more reasonable for banked enlightenment.

Agree 3 days is too short; I'd say it saves for a week, maybe 2. You don't want a game to encourage ppl to never take a few days away for real life activities. But a month is too long; you should have to be pretty committed to the game on a routine basis.

P.s. the move from 4 levels of enlightment to 1 level of enlightment was a good change. If it was 4 levels; you would be encouraging every to gain 400K regular XP every day; that's a lot for the casual gamer.

I mean I've gone on 20 day vacations....I'm sure others have gone longer than me...so at a minimum 3 weeks but I really still think a month is reasonable. I assure you I've not got a lack of commitment but its impractical to take a computer on international travels (different power sources, thefts from hotel rooms, damage in transit because the baggage people mishandled your $3,000 machine....plus actually enjoying your travels and taking a break from the daily things....there are legitimate compelling reasons to allow players to leave for a reasonable leave of absence without feeling punished).

In any case 3 days is too short...IMHO a week or two (while much better than 3 days) is still too short. Just my $0.02

Mystikkal

Faugaun wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@Faugaun if people wouldn't just move to the next thing that offers fun and rewarding gameplay for hours on end, you might have a point. For short bursts of fun there's already the casual market, for 1h sessions the single player market and the MMO market's audience always was the reality fugitives, where even casuals put in longer than 1h sessions once in a while.

Besides, you save money by cutting costs, but you make money by spening money. But that's something apparently many have forgotten as well.

So I agree completely ....I'm talking a shift from 4+ hour daily sessions to 1-3 hour sessions...and spending money does not implicitely mean that you will make money...though often times initial sound investments can give good returns. I can think of at least one failed mmo that would have done much better if they had invested in additional staff and marketing and by releasing good quality content.

Enodoc wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Pulling these out of another thread:

Enodoc wrote: »

[Paraphrased:] Disable all Champion Passives in Cyrodiil.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

PVP should be about skilled competition, may the best man (or woman) win, not "I cheat/grind the same mobs until I run out of energy drinks to stroke an unfair advantage like it was the same as skill."
ZOS, make it so.

3 day cap is too short, next week I go on vacation (out of the country for a week and I feel bad because I will miss out on cp)....30 days is much more reasonable for banked enlightenment.

Agree 3 days is too short; I'd say it saves for a week, maybe 2. You don't want a game to encourage ppl to never take a few days away for real life activities. But a month is too long; you should have to be pretty committed to the game on a routine basis.

P.s. the move from 4 levels of enlightment to 1 level of enlightment was a good change. If it was 4 levels; you would be encouraging every to gain 400K regular XP every day; that's a lot for the casual gamer.

I mean I've gone on 20 day vacations....I'm sure others have gone longer than me...so at a minimum 3 weeks but I really still think a month is reasonable. I assure you I've not got a lack of commitment but its impractical to take a computer on international travels (different power sources, thefts from hotel rooms, damage in transit because the baggage people mishandled your $3,000 machine....plus actually enjoying your travels and taking a break from the daily things....there are legitimate compelling reasons to allow players to leave for a reasonable leave of absence without feeling punished).

In any case 3 days is too short...IMHO a week or two (while much better than 3 days) is still too short. Just my $0.02

I agree with you; I think we are saying the same thing. The exact length can be argued; but we can agree that 3 days is too short.

The key as I stated before is going to be make the diminishing returns much greater and the power of the overall system much reduced. People are crazy about champion points right now because they are so powerful. There will also need to be a system to help people who are far behind (e.g. new players) catch up to being in the same league at the vets.

I also agree with the notion that participating in various game modes should be pretty comparable in terms of XP earned (although you should also consider what else you get from the activity; e.g. AP, gear, gold, etc.)

Drazhar14

I think the exp gain is fine (but please stop nerfing grind spots without adding new content to play through). It should take a long time to get champion points. HOWEVER, the strength of the passives need to be decreased. Maxed out champion points should give something like +10% to a stat. At the current values of +25%, the gap between someone with no champion points and maxed points is way too high. Instead of a small bonus over time, which is what the system is supposed to be, it feels more like a mandatory grind to remain competitive.

Snit

ZOS needs to communicate three important facts to players fearful of the need to 'cap' CP in order to stay competitive:

- For almost all builds, about half of the stars have no significant combat impact (some are non-combat, while others are magicka- or stamina-build specific)
- Returns diminish sharply as you put more points in
- Some of the biggest impacts are in passives set relatively low in the constellation. For example, the 30-point passive in "The Apprentice" will add more to magicka DPS than any of the 120-point stars

The CP system is more front-weighted than players think it is. I'm sure you guys have done the math on this, so perhaps share some TLDR version of the design goal in this respect.

Nihil

IMO, the champion system needs to have more diminishing returns. I charted the % of total bonuses compared to % of total passive achieved and the growth rate appears to be very linear (specially for passives that go to 25%), The exception being the attributes you get in the constellations. Quick example: For attributes,
the first 10 % invested into the thieves constellations net 30 % of the total gain,
50 % (600 total points spent in thieves constellations) net a total of 75 % of the total gain you can get,
70 % nets ~ 89 % of your total gain.
90 % actually nets 100 % total gain, I believe this should be 98 % (~ 49 % increase to the attribute), and have 100 % invested give players a 50 % increase to stats.

If we look at passives that go up to 25 % using the same markers we have:
10% invested = 20% of the total gain,
50 % invested = 61% total gain
70 % invested = 78% total gain
90 % invested = 92.8 % of total gain.

This has a lot more linear look to it after the first 10 points. This makes it harder to feel like we are catching up, when after the first 10 points their is minimal differences between the 10-50% marks and the 50-90% marks.

13 % passives look slightly better, (going in order using the same % invested as before) having total gains as, 27.7%, then 67.7 %, then 82.3% then 94.6 %. But I still think it should follow the curve that is set by the attributes. Basically 50% invested should get you to 75 % of the total gains.

As many have said, exp rates need to be equivalent, right now the emphasis is on grinding mobs. Delindsay I think had a good post http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/155318/xp-disparity-and-how-zos-can-address-it#latest that addresses and gives a suggestion (I differ in the opinion about 15 minutes for grinding mobs is ok, I think the average players should make equivalent exp, and the "good players" should make equivalent exp no matter what content they play, obviously crafting should just be a flat rate).

The other concern is with the bugs that happened it already put players apart, and while not as important in the long run is having consequences in the short run. I think having a cap for the time being basically letting players "catch up" would be a fair way to compromise without doing a roll back of anyones CP.

edit: numbers based on PTS, I haven't seen a difference based on how I have leveled yet but their might be.

TheFalcon19

My suggestion:

-Keep the 3600 point system.
-Keep the 400k xp bar.

BUT

-Add a second time based champion xp bar that awards a champion point every 90 minutes of play time. This flat increase would remove a lot of pressure.
-Every time based champion point earned would increase the multiplier of the xp based bar (up to 4x) until an xp based champion point is earned then it drops back to 1x.
-In pvp, while a player has the Continous Attack buff (both lv1 and lv2 would have this), the timer counts 50% faster, so if they keep doing stuff they could get a champion point every 60 minutes.

Esha76

For what it is worth, here are my meager observations/impressions with my account CP.

I seem to have unlimited enlightenment. And to be honest, I like this speed of accumulation at this time. The reason I play MMOs is for the perpetual character progression, and I feel like I am working towards more than just another VR rank. And it feels achievable.

However, should/when this enlightenment end, I can certainly see this feeling like just another grind.

Due to my circumstances, i have been able to put in 5 - 10 hours a day (depending). Since 1.6 I have achieved one VR rank and 10 champion points (currently at 80). This is by questing in VR Grahtwood and Greenshade, as well as three regular level VR3 dungeon runs at VR8.

As a casual, I'm perfectly content with my CP experience so far. But reading other people's, I certainly see a cause for concern.

Don't know if any of this is helpful in any way for dev's reviews of the system... hopefully things can be resolved for everyone asap.

AshTal

My main problem is Enlighten seems very very broken. Since 1.65 went live I have had enlightenment twice once it vanished when I logged off, not to be seen again for over 36 hours. The second time I got it randomly when playing a VET and knew not to log off.

I think Enlightenment is a good idea, but clearly when some people have had it constant this has made it even worse for those of us who have not had it at all or had it randomly and lost it.

Without enlightenment its nothing but a grind.

JLB

Just increase XP gains from all PvE and PvP.
PvP should grant at least the same amount of CP PvE provides when grinding XP. Nobody should feel forced to PvE or PvP regarding CP gains.

PvE should reward CP accordingly to the difficulty of the content. SO HM should provide 1 CP. It's the hardest content in game, and it should be rewarded accordingly. The list of XP then would go down accordingly to the difficulty.

1.SO HM
2.SO normal
3.HR/AA HM/DSA vet
4.HR/AA /DSA normal
5.Vet Dungeons
6.Normal Dungeons/Questing

Something like this.

Also, please, allow 3/4 CP per Enlightenment day. 1 CP is really REALLY bad, not enough at all, and 4 CP felt like a balanced amount so far. Even 3 would be ok.

And let's be honest here, if you are going to introduce Crown Store Enlightenment or XP gain potions, do it already.
It sucks, but I think everyone knows that's going to be in the Store at some point so let's get over it.
Give at least players who can't afford to play 10 hours every day because of RL, have 1 way not to be left back into oblivion regarding CP.

Faugaun

Nihil wrote: »

IMO, the champion system needs to have more diminishing returns. I charted the % of total bonuses compared to % of total passive achieved and the growth rate appears to be very linear (specially for passives that go to 25%), The exception being the attributes you get in the constellations. Quick example: For attributes,
the first 10 % invested into the thieves constellations net 30 % of the total gain,
50 % (600 total points spent in thieves constellations) net a total of 75 % of the total gain you can get,
70 % nets ~ 89 % of your total gain.
90 % actually nets 100 % total gain, I believe this should be 98 % (~ 49 % increase to the attribute), and have 100 % invested give players a 50 % increase to stats.

If we look at passives that go up to 25 % using the same markers we have:
10% invested = 20% of the total gain,
50 % invested = 61% total gain
70 % invested = 78% total gain
90 % invested = 92.8 % of total gain.

This has a lot more linear look to it after the first 10 points. This makes it harder to feel like we are catching up, when after the first 10 points their is minimal differences between the 10-50% marks and the 50-90% marks.

13 % passives look slightly better, (going in order using the same % invested as before) having total gains as, 27.7%, then 67.7 %, then 82.3% then 94.6 %. But I still think it should follow the curve that is set by the attributes. Basically 50% invested should get you to 75 % of the total gains.

As many have said, exp rates need to be equivalent, right now the emphasis is on grinding mobs. Delindsay I think had a good post http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/155318/xp-disparity-and-how-zos-can-address-it#latest that addresses and gives a suggestion (I differ in the opinion about 15 minutes for grinding mobs is ok, I think the average players should make equivalent exp, and the "good players" should make equivalent exp no matter what content they play, obviously crafting should just be a flat rate).

The other concern is with the bugs that happened it already put players apart, and while not as important in the long run is having consequences in the short run. I think having a cap for the time being basically letting players "catch up" would be a fair way to compromise without doing a roll back of anyones CP.

edit: numbers based on PTS, I haven't seen a difference based on how I have leveled yet but their might be.

@Nihil you can check here:

http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/

For graphs and power curves and they do the math automatically for you. Your observation is fairly correct there is an initial diminishing value and then it becomes more linear. All stars are done in the links off that page.

TheFalcon19 wrote: »

My suggestion:

-Keep the 3600 point system.
-Keep the 400k xp bar.

BUT

-Add a second time based champion xp bar that awards a champion point every 90 minutes of play time. This flat increase would remove a lot of pressure.
-Every time based champion point earned would increase the multiplier of the xp based bar (up to 4x) until an xp based champion point is earned then it drops back to 1x.
-In pvp, while a player has the Continous Attack buff (both lv1 and lv2 would have this), the timer counts 50% faster, so if they keep doing stuff they could get a champion point every 60 minutes.

This is an interesting concept I would need more details but tenetivly it looks like it may be something to consider.

Shadesofkin

It felt like there was no problem with the 4 Champion Points per enlightenment session. But, a better native method of tracking both Champion gain and Enlightenment need to be introduced.

Ignore literally every single request for a cap on the amount of Champion Points a person can earn, that is a terrible idea and should not even be put in the same galaxy as any other reasonable consideration.

Experience gain in dungeons and trials needs to be addressed, so does the loot drops, but that's another thing for another time.

Dragon Star Arena, both regular and veteran, should be fantastic places to earn at least 1 Champion point while Un-Enlightened.

Achievements granting Xp that is specifically for the Champion System should be everywhere and tied to the many many undaunted achievements specifically.

I love everything else about the system.

Rust_in_Peace

I saw a post on Reddit just now that suggested revamping the LFG tool and having it reward 1 Champion Point per day for successful completion of a dungeon using the LFG tool. I think this would be a great idea. For anyone familiar with Final Fantasy XIV they really nailed the LFG tool in that game. Once a day you could do a dungeon and gain a really nice chunk of bonus XP, as well as some gold and bonus reward if your job type (usually healer or tank) was in high demand.

The nonfunctional LFG tool in this game is what stops me from really going out of my way to do any PVE. I've been through that era of spamming chat hoping for the chance to get into a decent group to do dungeons and I don't want to relive that. I have no nostalgia for that massive waste of time that is spamming "LFG - DPS".

Ysne58

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Lets talk about the unintended consequences to those "legitimately playing" the game of all these nerfs. When questing almost all the XP was mobs. All of the mobs in delves now have the reduced delve XP. Any delve and world boss you encounter has the reduced boss XP. Overland mob areas are generally more crowded as little else gives much XP so your unlikely to find many of those to kill. Than you get your lousy turn in XP which may be the entire problem with the whole system. If you go to do your leveled 4 man dungeon or public dungeon you will be hit with the mob and boss nerfs. Do a trial and you get the trials mob nerfs. The bottom line is that all the nerfs that destroyed all those grinds had the unintended effect of equally reducing XP for those "legitimately playing" and it is now quite impossible to get that targeted 1 CP per hour while doing so.

You see, because no significant portion of the XP in the game ever came from quest turn ins and almost all of it came from mobs and bosses the XP was always very easy to get without doing the quests. The flip side of this was that when people were prevented from doing this by nerfing boss and mob xp they were also prevented from getting any xp from questing since the quest itself was never significant and those questing kill the same mobs and bosses.

So, what is the conclusion of all of this. I would say you need to hire an economist with some gaming experience to analyze your incentive structure and fix it as the activities you want people to do have never been extrinsically rewarding. You need to fire most of you leadership because they failed to see this and woefully misplaced priorities. You should promote the armor dying team as that was a perfect synergy of incentives for hardcore people, fun for casuals, and even clean execution. Truly it is a bright spot in a long history of terrible failures of which the Champion system I think will be the greatest because, not does adding an endless grind leveling progression system not count as new content, but MMO's have level caps for a reason.

I I definitely agree with the bolded part.