Champion System and XP Feedback

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

Crux of the issue is not exp gain rates, it's the power disparity. Ask yourself why it matters if someone has more CP: the answer is because they become significantly stronger than people with less CP. Why is this an issue? It rewards grinding and exploiting more than playing content and skill. Capping it only mitigates the issue in the short-term. Linking it to achievements only gives a new flavor to the same problem.

The solution? Re-work Champ system into a horizontal progression instead of vertical. All the woes go away.

You can be quite creative with the system, too. Have champ skills that change aesthetics, or use it to open up new build possibilities. One simple example of the latter is having a skill that grants the same HP/Stam regen buffs as Green Dragon Blood when a Draconic Power skill is used. You can grab this on a regen build and drop GDB to open up a new slot. You sacrifice the on-demand heal for a skill slot while keeping the buff up-time. Simple, adds flexibility to build styles, doesn't offer an inherent power advantage.

A different option would be to make the first, say 800 CP easier to obtain and scale it up as you gain more CP. This offers the opportunity for new players/casuals to gain power and even the odds relatively quickly, maintains a slight edge for veteran players and minimal changes have to be made. It can easily be scaled to take the same amount of time to gain all 3600 CP as it does now, but with the first third of it or whatever coming much faster and the final third coming much slower.

It's not the "crux of the issue" it's not even an issue. It's the way MMORPGS work. If you want everyone to be equal all the time play an FPS not an MMORPG.

The system is just fine the way it is, just roll back the guys who abused the system the first week, add diminishing returns to everything and done.

ChuckyPayne

My problem is the nerf. Easiest and fastest way to restore the balance changing the exp. But that is not okay when you are not a grinder. Today Craglorn is mostly useless for a quester (to get exp for lvl up), every delves every event nerfed because of grinders, bots. The new DLC content new zones will the same, nerf and nerf and nerf after the few weeks. That is not good.
Public dungeons nerfed because of grinders, bots.

If I would like to level up without veteran dungeons, only with questing it is almost impossible to reach vet14 why? because of nerfs, because of grinders/bots. The easiest and fastest way to nerf changing the exp. In my opinion that is not good.

I can accept that is not okay when 10 min = 1 CP, but the nerf more harm the normal players than the grinders. Grinders will find other mobs, enemy groups to kill and kill.
The xp grinding must be definitively terminated. Grinders dont like grind, but want to collect CP as mush as they can, as fast as they can. Limit the exp. If you stay, limit the exp after 100 mob etc. 75% other 100 mobs 50%, other 100 mobs 25, other 100 mobs minimal XP. Raise every part of the game back to the normal. Public dungeons, events, bosses, dungeons, trials etc. etc. Every player can get the maximum exp if they play normal. If they want to use to his advantage, nerf the account EXP 75%-50%-25% very soon.

Other ideas
Give them/us other more enjoyable challanges with CP reward.

- PVP more complex dailies but CP is guaranteed: Capture 3 farm/etc + 2 tower + kill 10 sorc/nightblade/etc =1 CP
- Daily bosses: Kill 5 word boss, close 3 dolmen, done 10 event = 1 CP.
- Golden Key, Veteran dungeon = 1 CP
- Normal dungeon = 1 CP / Week
- Trials 1CP/ea. /week
- DSA 1CP/ea /week normal = 1 CP, Hard = 1 CP
- Group content for 24 player. For example Hard mode dolmens. Every single mob is a "mini boss" = atronach, harvester, lich etc. With new end bosses. Every day do a hard mode dolmens = 1 CP.

Give us repeatable tasks, challanges with CP rewards, instead of XP collecting -> grinding --> nerfing

sebban

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

A brief history of XP and grind nerfing ...

This is a excellent post. Players will always flock to the spot that is the most efficient for XP/h. As ZOS continually nerf spot after spot, in the end, there will be no places left to gain XP at all and everyone will suffer for it.

EDIT: The correct answer, in my opinion, is a smaller nerf of the most efficient spots and a increase in XP in other places to make everything equal in XP/h.

Gargragrond

Infinite progression system if fine from the roleplaying perspective and worked in the MUDs of 90's/00's - then you kind of accepted that the higher level players are godlike figures in the gameworld that you can never match, but it also meant that there was no point in trying to compete with them.

When you add competitive elements, i.e. PvP and even PvE trials, infinite progression seems like a bad idea. What is the point of competition if the strongest players are those that spent most time farming mudcrabs? I don't like losing to people just because they farmed more mudcrabs, and the people farming mudcrabs probably don't like farming mudcrabs either, it's silly.

The current system is also very strong. People are screaming for race change and feel frustrated because the other race has 5% advantage. When 5% is meaningful, then what about >25% advantage from the champion system.

One way to band-aid the system (if it is here to stay) could be to cap the amount of cp you can spend right now (not necessarily cap earning them). I.e. you could only assign like 100cp to your char now. Then when new content is released the cap could be raised a little bit and so on. Like it was done when raising veteran level cap, but allowing heavy players to get the new levels immeadiately without grinding. Other people could always catch up in few weeks and the power differences wouldn't be extreme in the meanwhile either.

Vorc

Hello, and thx for this great game

There is a gap beetween champ xp value earning in pvp and champ xp grind in pve.
The progression should be comparable, or pure pvp players will quickly experience a gap in character power (considering equivalent play time).

- 20 players kills quests could be fully repeatable and increased in xp value (for champ xp value), therefore finishing the 5 quests should give a cp.

- and/or additionnal quests could be created with 50 or 100 kills with higher xp value, for exemple equivalent of 1cp for 100 kills

- scroll capture quests could be increased in xp value (they are map event after all)

then to avoit the hardcore grind trends:
- number of champ points each day should be max 5 for exemple
- enlightment should still allow non hardcore players to get bonus xp

finally:

- enlightment should be fixed in pvp: I had 3 times a points validation message, passing from a constellation to the other, which points never appeared for skill selection.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

There are number of reasons why player should at own will trigger and pause enlightment period. It would mean necessarelly that enlightment is limited time wise. Any other way would create imbalance in regard of earned cp .

Junipus

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,
We'd like you to tell us what you'd like to see instead, or how you'd like to do something differently than what's currently offered.

We can tell you that we are planning to adjust XP that you receive from dungeons and Trials so they offer a more viable way to level and/or receive Champion Points.

Thanks!

There's not much that I can say without repeating the points already mentioned in this thread, but I'm throwing my voice into the cacophony.

Please adjust the XP for dungeons to include all dungeons once you reach VR level. If I choose to go through Spindleclutch normal dungeon with a group at VR14 I would like to get considerably more XP than I do now and the same as if I went through Spindleclutch veteran at VR14. Otherwise the only end game content outside of PvP is dungeon grinding and it leads back to the main issue with how you're approaching this - grinding nerfing.

On that subject, please leave us with our grinding spots. Some players have completed all the PvE content, every quest, every dungeon, DSA and trials over and over and have no other way of earning CP than grinding end content. Leave the grinding spots we find as an alternative since it's effectively the same thing but doesn't require finding a large group or dedicating hours to a single task. Want to grind for 10 minutes? Sure, just head on over. Want to grind for 4 hours? Find a group and head to DSA.

Players are very creative and will find more spots to grind. I personally know of 3 which, while not providing as much XP as in Craglorn, provide consistent XP enough to make it bearable. However, those wanting to quest in the nerfed areas of Craglorn will now suffer as their XP gain for leveling is no longer on par with those who have already done it. This applies to every single area of Tamriel already hit by your desire to force players to do the PvE content how you want in a game advertised as 'play as we want'. PLEASE stop it.

Additionally, increase XP gains across the board with considerable gains in PvP. As has been mentioned, some players do gain a large amount in PvP but they do so because they are good players and deserve that reward. Punishing them by reducing that gain only punishes everyone else who is average or lower and forces them out of PvP and into the PvE grind zones. The same applies to those who PvE for 10 hours a day compared to 1 hour a day.

PvP XP gains need to be consistent with PvE and monitoring those gain rates could help. If most people gain a CP every 1-2 hours in PvE then we need PvP adjusted to reflect that among the majority of players.

If I think of more I'll post again.

ashlee17

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

reduce the amount of XP required for each champion point from 400,000 to the 200,000 used for the conversion of pre 1.6 veteran rank characters to post 1.6 characters under the new champion system . No players XP earned should be worth half of another players xp earned regardless of when they earned it .

Take various locations where there are few post level 50 quests , and increase the respawn rate of the mobs there while ensuring those mobs also provide level appropriate XP . Some players would prefer to grind mobs over quests and they should have places to goto for that .

Increase the XP earned from doing instanced dungeons (group and solo) .

Increase the XP awarded in PvP for killing another player or any other activity that is related directly to PvP(edit to include other PvP related actions) . Basically I do not want to see PvPers forced to grind PVE so they can be competitive in PvP .

roll back the gains of those who abused the enlightenment bug . Cheaters should not be rewarded .

/agree

GreyRanger

I think it is pretty obvious that if you allow CP to be obtained by grinding you will never be able to manage them. Some players will have as much time as it takes and want to be OP in PVP or whatever to grind endlessly. So, the simple solution are:

1. A reasonable build up of enlightenment (say 2 CP per day).
2. Allow it to accumulate at a level that would support people who have commitments outside the game (up to say 1 week's worth).
3. This is the key: No XP toward enlightenment from mob kills, grinding solved. XP from quest turn ins (including delves, DSA, etc.) and PVP. You will need a multiplier for this XP that allows the rate to be reasonable.

That would pretty much do it.

What to do about the people who ground out crazy CP during the last week is harder to say. Taking things away from people is bad, leaving some players OP is really bad.

A last point, CP is already magnifying player separation. Saw a tell last night looking for people to run vet pledge, but only wanted players with 90+ CP. You can see the train wreck coming from a mile away.

Blud

Could you add XP for PVP?

I don't like running dungeons and trials that much. I would prefer to earn my XP/CP in Cyrodiil. PvP is the reason I play this game, not running dungeons.

Thank you!

Faugaun

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

Crux of the issue is not exp gain rates, it's the power disparity. Ask yourself why it matters if someone has more CP: the answer is because they become significantly stronger than people with less CP. Why is this an issue? It rewards grinding and exploiting more than playing content and skill. Capping it only mitigates the issue in the short-term. Linking it to achievements only gives a new flavor to the same problem.

The solution? Re-work Champ system into a horizontal progression instead of vertical. All the woes go away.

You can be quite creative with the system, too. Have champ skills that change aesthetics, or use it to open up new build possibilities. One simple example of the latter is having a skill that grants the same HP/Stam regen buffs as Green Dragon Blood when a Draconic Power skill is used. You can grab this on a regen build and drop GDB to open up a new slot. You sacrifice the on-demand heal for a skill slot while keeping the buff up-time. Simple, adds flexibility to build styles, doesn't offer an inherent power advantage.

A different option would be to make the first, say 800 CP easier to obtain and scale it up as you gain more CP. This offers the opportunity for new players/casuals to gain power and even the odds relatively quickly, maintains a slight edge for veteran players and minimal changes have to be made. It can easily be scaled to take the same amount of time to gain all 3600 CP as it does now, but with the first third of it or whatever coming much faster and the final third coming much slower.

It's not the "crux of the issue" it's not even an issue. It's the way <Some> MMORPGS work. If you want everyone to be equal all the time play an FPS not an MMORPG.

I took the liberty of adding the word you forgot.....some mmorpgs have done excellent implementations of horizontal progression systems ....the skill wheel in TSW is my favorite example but there are others as well. Equalality is good if you want a competitive atmosphere....which includes PvP and trials in ESO....a power disparity creates a huge problem. For none competitive activities a power disparity is less of an issue but once it reaches a "LF1M 300 CP minimum please send screenshot with Dropbox link (and use a URL shortener)" stage then even pve is adversely impacted because it creates an unfriendly environment for those that do not meet the benchmark. This means that those above the magic line have easy access to groups and thus increase their cp gains (which causes that magic line to move higher) meanwhile those below the line must spend much extra effort trying to find a group...and then going through the content slower....which causes the gap between those above the line and those below the line is always increasing. This gap is power disparity and is bad for the community at large. A horizontal progression where no power is gained but flexibility opens more options allows players to do different activities and allows for a progression feeling while avoiding completely the power disparity issues that poison vertical progression systems.

As a side, I always thought it was funny how mmorpg companies encourage their player base to play for intensive quantities of time....I guess the argument is that someone with large time investment is more attached and likely to continue pumping money into the system....but in many business systems it is common knowledge that if you cut costs then you increase your profit margins (much more effectively than raising price). So incentiving players to play for a limited time (1-3 hours a day) and then encouraging them to get out get exercise, polish their resume, etc...reduces server load, possibly improves the health of their customers, possibly increases the wealth of their customers and reduces the games monthly expenses....ultimately increasing profits (fewer % of total accounts logged in at any one time)...this is good for the player and for the company...yet it is not adopted (I'm not really sure why).

Grim13 wrote: »

Also, make skill points account wide. <snip>, make level account wide. Give everyone automatic vr14 characters everytime they roll a new one.

I'm sorry, but there's only so many times someone can play the same <snip> content!

I would say make these options but don't force us to roll vr14 some of us actually like lower level stuff but I have no problem if someone else wants it instantly if I have the same option.

Denaia wrote: »

I have a second suggestion on the matter

Everyone can earn 4 cp per day maximum, after that you get no more cp.

There is a maximum cap of CP one can have every day, this is to make sure that those who abused the previous system and got 100ths of points can't progress till they are on par with the rest.

The 4 points that can be gained should be relatively easy to gain without enlightment, for casual players there is enlightment to keep up.

So to clarify patch is released on day 1 CP cap for everyone increases by 4 per day:

So day 2 cap is 8
Day 3 cap 12
Day 4 cap 16
Day 5 cap 20
...
Day 25 cap 100
...
Day 100 cap 400
...
Etc...

So basically the maximum power players can obtain is ever increasing but players below cap can earn a CP every 50k exp (picking an artificially easy number). This would allow players who join a year from now to close the gap fairly quickly and prevent current players from running way ahead...while providing continual improvement...and stretch the total system progression to a fixed 2.5 years before the max is reached...

If this is what you're suggesting then I think that is a great idea!

onlinegamer1

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We'd like you to tell us what you'd like to see instead, or how you'd like to do something differently than what's currently offered.

Gina,

1. Monster XP is too low post-VR10
a regular, single VR1-VR10 monster kill is worth 414 xp at level. That is 0.04% of 1,000,000 (what it takes to gain a VR level).
Once you hit VR10 (finish Cadwells Gold) and move on to Craglorn, regular, single VR11-VR14 monster kills only grant 156 xp, or 0.015% of a VR level.

While I understand that you (for some reason) don't "like" grinding, monster kills should not be any lower in Craglorn than in the rest of the game from VR1-10, because Craglorn is the ONLY ZONE CURRENTLY IN GAME with VR11-14 content.

You need to restore the monster XP in Craglorn to the standard amount.

2. Quest XP
Most quests from VR1 to VR10 give 4990 XP or more depending on length. As a side note, why "4990" and not "5000"? Are you trying to sell us a used car? Anyway, that is 0.5% (half of 1%) of a VR level, meaning there would have to be 200 quests in order to gain a VR level solely by questing and not other means. This is not enough XP, so therefore we must grind monsters, as other sources of XP are insignificant: Chest XP, Exploration XP, World Boss XP, Delve XP are all too low to matter at all towards leveling up.

You need to increase quest XP by at least 15-20% (5750-6000 XP as a base before increasing for duration).

3. New sources of XP
Completing a Dolmen the first time does not grant any additional "1-time" XP. It should. Getting each Crafting Skill to rank 50 should grant a 1-time XP reward. Some Achievements grant 1-time XP - expand this to more, even if the amounts are low. Increase the XP for Player Kills in PvP to twice as much as a regular monster (828 XP at a minimum, twice 414). Increase Exploration XP by 50% (its insignificant as it is).

Add more sources of XP Gain.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We'd like you to tell us what you'd like to see instead, or how you'd like to do something differently than what's currently offered.

Gina,

1. Monster XP is too low post-VR10
a regular, single VR1-VR10 monster kill is worth 414 xp at level. That is 0.04% of 1,000,000 (what it takes to gain a VR level).
Once you hit VR10 (finish Cadwells Gold) and move on to Craglorn, regular, single VR11-VR14 monster kills only grant 156 xp, or 0.015% of a VR level.

While I understand that you (for some reason) don't "like" grinding, monster kills should not be any lower in Craglorn than in the rest of the game from VR1-10, because Craglorn is the ONLY ZONE CURRENTLY IN GAME with VR11-14 content.

You need to restore the monster XP in Craglorn to the standard amount.

2. Quest XP
Most quests from VR1 to VR10 give 4990 XP or more depending on length. As a side note, why "4990" and not "5000"? Are you trying to sell us a used car? Anyway, that is 0.5% (half of 1%) of a VR level, meaning there would have to be 200 quests in order to gain a VR level solely by questing and not other means. This is not enough XP, so therefore we must grind monsters, as other sources of XP are insignificant: Chest XP, Exploration XP, World Boss XP, Delve XP are all too low to matter at all towards leveling up.

You need to increase quest XP by at least 15-20% (5750-6000 XP as a base before increasing for duration).

3. New sources of XP
Completing a Dolmen the first time does not grant any additional "1-time" XP. It should. Getting each Crafting Skill to rank 50 should grant a 1-time XP reward. Some Achievements grant 1-time XP - expand this to more, even if the amounts are low. Increase the XP for Player Kills in PvP to twice as much as a regular monster (828 XP at a minimum, twice 414). Increase Exploration XP by 50% (its insignificant as it is).

Add more sources of XP Gain.

I agree with all of this as long as DR is added to all of them to prevent exploiting.

manny254

While I understand where others are coming from end game content need to provide good xp. It does not right now (maybe with the exception of dsa) . People want quest and achievements to give more cp, but what about those who completed this content long ago. I want to log into my character do some dungeons, dsa, trials,etc and feel like I made progress. Lowering the cp on these would actually create more grinding. I honestly think that endgame content does not give enough cp. although I do agree that everything needs to give more.

Nazon_Katts

@Faugaun if people wouldn't just move to the next thing that offers fun and rewarding gameplay for hours on end, you might have a point. For short bursts of fun there's already the casual market, for 1h sessions the single player market and the MMO market's audience always was the reality fugitives, where even casuals put in longer than 1h sessions once in a while.

Besides, you save money by cutting costs, but you make money by spening money. But that's something apparently many have forgotten as well.

Helluin

I agree with many points arised in this topic.

I recap what imho requires more your attention:

1. Increase XP from some contents: PvP (content the most penalized atm), dungeons/trials and reward also other activities like crafting, gathering, Justice, etc.
2. As discussed already in PTS forum, there could be a different curve as diminishing returns in CPs to avoid to create a gap too big, especially thinking to new players and returning players with Tamriel Unlimited
3. Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs
4. For players using multiple roles or builds, especially thinking to PvP and group PvE contents, something should be changed as suggested here: A ) chance to respec attribute points without visiting a shrine and reduce the costs of respec for CP and attribute points; B ) implement double or multiple saved builds (more than X builds could be sold in Crown Store)
5. Adjust accounts affected by Enlightenment bugs in these first days of Update 6: some players had never Enlightenment on, some others had it more than once a day and some pretty often (bug or exploit)
6. Evaluate a weekly or monthly cap for CP gaining: this matter is debatable since community seems divided 50% pro and 50% against that

Speaking about point 1, I can say that in these days, being a member of PvP and PvE really active guilds, members were more focused on farming CPs than to join PvP and group PvE: this should be addressed because CP should be a system working behind the scene while doing any content and not encouraging just grind/farm.

About point 5: just considering guilds and friends, even playing together, doing the same content and with pretty the same ammount of time, the CP gained are really different amongst many members because of the Enlightenment bugs.

About point 6: as I wrote, this is something really debatable so maybe you can find a middle path.
Development wise, a cap would help to know an exact number of max CPs in X months and so to release new contents with an appropriate power/difficulty level.
A similar system (at least based on tokens for gear, that is the only progression there when at cap) is successfully in place in other MMORPGs for the same reason. These games are more focused on PvE contents and tiers of gear, so new PvE contents should be really accurate as power/difficulty level when released, and a weekly cap helps in that way; upon releases of new contents anyway every player is able to catch up, being the previous tier of gear a lot easier to gain with the weekly cap removed.
This together with what written in point 3 should help in the CP progression system.

Mystikkal

The biggest problem with the system is the power of the system. For those of you familar with business, there is a term called "barrier to entry". When someone is looking to start a company in relation to a particular sector or product area, you always evaulate the barrier to entry. The barrier to entry is how hard it is to penetrate the market and be sucessful. If you try to go into asset management, for example, there is a high barrier to entry. You may need to be certified by regulators and build a large infrastructure. If you start a pizza shop in an area that doesn't have a lot of pizza shops, the barrier of entry is relatively low.

The concept is very similar here in ESO. You can not expect new players to come to the game when the barrier to entry is so high. In the current system, new players will have no chance to compete with veterans. The champion system needs to be WAY less influential. It is also needs more diminishing returns. The points that you put have diminishing returns, but you have 75/120 point passives in each tree that are extremely powerful. Only after hundreds and hundreds of points are you going to be able to get a lot of those 120 point passives; so the system doesnt really have good diminishing returns. Gear almost doesn't matter now; it's all about how many champion points you have - that's silly.

You need to seriously think about how you are going to attract new players. One of the keys to a sucessful MMO is to make it fast for the people at the bottom to gain progression up to a certain threshold (say 80% of the power of the vets). Obviously you can't just hand someone something that tooks others 700 + hours to get; but you have to give them a fighting chance to be in the same league.

~Mystikkal

DanielMaxwell

ub17_ESO wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

reduce the amount of XP required for each champion point from 400,000 to the 200,000 used for the conversion of pre 1.6 veteran rank characters to post 1.6 characters under the new champion system . No players XP earned should be worth half of another players xp earned regardless of when they earned it .

Take various locations where there are few post level 50 quests , and increase the respawn rate of the mobs there while ensuring those mobs also provide level appropriate XP . Some players would prefer to grind mobs over quests and they should have places to goto for that .

Increase the XP earned from doing instanced dungeons (group and solo) .

Increase the XP awarded in PvP for killing another player or any other activity that is related directly to PvP(edit to include other PvP related actions) . Basically I do not want to see PvPers forced to grind PVE so they can be competitive in PvP .

roll back the gains of those who abused the enlightenment bug . Cheaters should not be rewarded .

I agree with all but the 1st part, i dont understand what you are getting at with that one.

I assume you mean the first segment about the XP conversion process. ZOS back in October made a very foolish promise to apply pre 1.6 XP gains to the Champion System when it went into the game as an active system . That promise included that there would be a cap , ZOS then annouced the Cap would be 70 CP gained based off of a 14 million XP cap at a rate of 200,000 xp = 1 CP . They also said that all players who hit level 50 after 1.6 went live would gain CPs at the rate of 400,000XP = 1CP . By doing that they have said that Pre 1.6 XP gained above level 50 (Veteran ranks 2-14 , and the first 200k earned towards VR2 ) is worth two times the XP earned after 1.6 went live .

It can seem confusing as I'm trying to keep it short , let me know if it is till unclear and i will try to make it clearer .

Enodoc

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Pulling these out of another thread:

Enodoc wrote: »

[Paraphrased:] Disable all Champion Passives in Cyrodiil.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

PVP should be about skilled competition, may the best man (or woman) win, not "I cheat/grind the same mobs until I run out of energy drinks to stroke an unfair advantage like it was the same as skill."
ZOS, make it so.

RoamingRiverElk

Enable people to have diverse builds in PvP without giving a huge advantage to those who have lots of time to grind (in whatever form) to gain strong passives that others won't have. Let SKILL matter, not the CP passives on top of everything else.

Introduce max 330 CP activated campaigns
* Current number of CP (~70) does NOT enable build diversity - the build for my main for example does not work yet due to not having enough CP - it used to work very very well in 1.5
* 330 CP is a reachable goal for many and does not yet create an incredibly huge difference. 70 vs 330 is *relevant*, but it's not completely utterly OP
* Campaigns because people still want to be able to choose between different campaigns based on population bars, lag, and other factors.
* These campaigns must be available to any character that is willing to only have 330 CP activated, no matter how much CP the player may have earned in total

robeauch

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We've been reading your posts and understand that many of you are frustrated over recent developments in the game including how you gain Champion Points, how often you're able to gain a Point, how you can gain XP (and therefore, get Champion Points!), among a number of other things.

It would be nice if players had some clarity about the Enlightenment concept.

The patch notes were pretty light on specifics for Enlightenment, and it's almost invisible in-game. (Apart from the "You Are Englightened!" banner at login, the only other info you get about it comes from hovering over the new CP bar, where you learn, "You have Enlightenment into the next Champion rank.") Which means players know very little about what they have, and even less about what they're *supposed* to have.

Why not just give the number when you hover over the CP bar? E.g: "Your Enlightenment will allow you to earn the next 375,273 points of Champion XP at an accelerated rate." (And similarly, provide a number for the amount of Enlightenment that will be "refreshed" overnight.)

StihlReign

Quite Possible this is the best idea so far.

derpsticks wrote: »

I've posted this before but figured I'd copy it here:

How about a system not based on time or xp?

How about giving a preset number of champion points per day based on completed objectives. For instance, lets say an account can earn up to 10 champion points in a day maximum but each of those champion points is awarded upon the completion of an objective such as:

"Complete both undaunted dungeon dailies"
"Complete X crafting dailies"
"Complete X pvp dailies"
"Complete <insert trial name>"
"Complete DSA"
"Earn X alliance points"
"Catch the rare <insert fish name> fish from <insert zone>"
"Help capture X keeps, scrolls, or resources"
"Mine/Pick/Chop/Extract/Collect X resource nodes"
"Kill X <insert mob name> in <insert level appropriate zone>"
"Steal X items without being caught by a guard"
"Pickpocket X items without being caught by a guard"
"Literally anything that takes some amount of measurable effort that players like to do anyways"

Now here is the interesting part, the player is given the opportunity to choose which 10 of these objectives to complete to earn their daily champion points from a list of 12-16 possibilities. Furthermore, the list is randomly generated and may have multiple objectives to do the same thing or slight variances where applicable. The randomness could be based on how "easy" or how much time the objective practically takes so things like harvesting resources would be available less often because it is relatively easy, but often enough because it can be time consuming.

What this does:

Prevents players from having to grind for anything except if they choose the grindy objective.

Randomization prevents players from picking the same thing over and over and will effectively average that player's ability to complete the objectives (If players could pick what they were good at all the time they would have too easy a time). Forcing players to complete at least some of their least favorite / hardest to complete things mixes the game up for them and guarantees all players average about the same amount of time to gain all their points over time.

Allows Crafters, PVErs, PVPrs, Grinders, Farmers, Fishers, Thieves, etc. equal access to the champion system. (Sorry RPrs, I don't RP so I can't think of a measurable objective for you, maybe you can).

Allows all players an equal opportunity to advance in the champion system at the same rate. It would also be possible to implement 3 days worth of champion point "backlog" to a player, allowing them to earn up to 30 champion points if they missed a few days or didn't finish an objective from the day before, but no more than 30 after the 3rd day.

Gives PVP players a viable option to gain champion points without worrying about the xp rates in Cyrodiil. They will just do what they normally do to earn a point, but can't earn them all doing just PVP unless RNG works out for them.

Gives VR14 characters viable options to gain champion points and does not punish those having completed most quests/achievements/events/etc.

Does not require players to create alts just for additional sources of XP.

Prevents any player from gaining a significant advantage over any other player who plays an average amount of time per day. Players who join later or do not have the ability to play every 3 days may be awarded additional champion points per day if they are significantly far behind (say 6 - 8 months down the road when others have 2/3-3/4 the points).

Does not allow players to sit idle and gain champion points on a daily basis based on a timed release of points.

Does not make certain time frames of xp gain worth wildly larger amounts for no apparent reason (current enlightenment). Instead merely allows players to choose alternative objectives so they can actually play the way they want in order to earn their points.

Many other wonderful things can come of this system. Given a proper set of difficult/time consuming/measurable accomplishments and objectives every single player's play style could be accounted for and given equal weight.

This system would make the champion system 3600 times better than the current implementation (see what I did there).

Please feel free to comment on this, I would love to hear your feedback. Constructive criticism is welcome.

Hamrammur

Suggestion:

In enlightenment tooltip add "Your next enlightenment will start at xx:xx"

Make enlightenment cumulative like rested bonus in other games. So going on a holiday for 3 weeks does not require you to grind like a mad man to get up to par with your buddy's.

Champion point cost is to high at 400.000 xp.

Killing a VR13 humanoid in upper Craglorn gives 144 xp with out enlightenment.
One needs to kill 2778 humanoids to reach 400.000 xp.

A single upper Craglorn daily quest xp reward is 4.990 xp with out enlightenment.
400.000 / 4.990 = 80 quests.

Ether lower the champion point cost or increase the xp reward.

You also might consider adding a bounty/mission board in Belkarth and Dragonstar where players need to kill x amount of mobs, clear x amount of dungeons in x amount of time, kill specific boss, kill specific dungeon boss, gather specific items, delivery quest or timed quest, fishing an specific fish, fishing in specific location. No voice acting required, it should be easy to add to the game.

If nothing is done regarding the xp reward while not enlightened, in few weeks time you see that players do not bother playing with out enlightenment, thus only play during the enlightenment period.

GaldorP

- I like the idea that 1 Champion Point per day is gained a lot faster as long as that is meant to help players who only play about 1-2 hours per day average to keep up with those who play a lot more. What I wouldn't want to see though is crown store items that restore or preserve Enlightenment.

- I feel that there is a lack of a concept about how the majority of the VR 14 players will gain XP for Champion Points. It feels like the instanced dungeons in Craglorn like Skyreach Catacombs and Skyreach Pinnacle randomly became the best XP spots by accident. And now that they have been nerfed another random spot will become "the" new grindspot for many VR 14 players.
It would be nice to have activities specifically designed for VR 14 players to earn Champion points. I would love to see something like random quests that send you back to VR 14 versions of all the old zones with various missions, solo and team missions. Maybe a bit like the bounty missions in Diablo 3 ^^ Or just add an entire VR 14 zone designed for grinding. A system like the Champion system that requires grinding to progress also needs content that is designed to be grinded (to be done over and over again or for an extended period of time). Or maybe add a system where you can do daily quests that reward bonus XP for completing a random Craglorn dungeon

- I still feel like 3'600 Champion Points gained at the current rate are simply too many. It takes someone who plays 1-2 hours per day 10 years to gain all Champion Points. That seems a bit too extreme for a game that had no grind like this before in PvE.

- I still don't like the idea that a single character can learn every single Champion Ability there is in the game. I think it's boring that we don't need to make a choice and can simply get all the passives and have all of them maxed at the same time.

- Some people have had a permanent Enlightenment bonus for days now and others have gained an insane amount of Champion points already with an exploit. For the sake of fairness, I think a fix that reduces any Champion XP gained after the first 30 Champion Points earned after the release of Update 6 (excluding the up to 70 CP gained by conversion from veteran ranks) by dividing it by 4 would be helpful:

Someone with 10 CP earned since release of Update 6 would still have all 10 of those CP. Someone with 30 CP earned would keep all 30 of those CP. Someone with 50 CP earned would keep 35 of those CP. Someone with 100 CP earned would keep 47.5 of those CP. Someone with 200 CP earned would keep 72.5 of those CP.

Additionally, those who used the Cyrodiil exploit to gain a large amount of CP should have their CP reset to 0 as a penalty (and only keep the ones they got from the conversion of veteran ranks).

Edit: Additional Champion XP for the daily PvP quests would be nice too so PvP players can also earn some Champion XP every day at a decent rate.

Snit

Thank you for the feedback opportunity.

I want more good options to progress each day by earning a CP or two. That is my expectation, to earn one or two CP's in an evening of casual play (two to three hours). I do not want to be channeled into a small subset of activities or group-only content when I play my V14. I expect the following to offer excellent exp returns:

- Grinding. Grinding is mindless, casual and solo. That is exactly what I want some days after a rough one at the office
- Questing. Whether it's an alt working through Cadwell's or my main doing repeatable quests, I expect questing to offer excellent CP. You may need to add more repeatable max-level quests outside Cyrodiil
- PvP. I love Cyrodiil. It's why I've stayed. I expect good CP returns there, too. Please balance around the median player's experience, though, not the top-end AP-Farmers. Their experience does not represent that of most players
- Vet Dungeons and all pledges. Make the daily pledges worth a ton of exp. They're naturally limited to once per day already
- Trials. I don't do them, but I know others do.

You could develop further along the same "sharply diminishing daily returns" philosophy of the Enlightenment system, which is quite clever. To help people keep up without enabling endless CP farms, consider a few more daily quests with huge exp rewards. Specifically, consider awarding 150k base experience for the following:

- The (daily) "Kill Enemy Soldiers" quest in Cyrodiil
- The (daily) non-veteran Undaunted Pledge
- The full set of six writs, also daily, once per account

All of these are once per day, and they're all reasonably accessible to anyone, casuals to hardcore.

Finally, please quit nerfing grind spots, unless they are actual exploits (e.g., respawning a boss).

Attorneyatlawl

manny254 wrote: »

While I understand where others are coming from end game content need to provide good xp. It does not right now (maybe with the exception of dsa) . People want quest and achievements to give more cp, but what about those who completed this content long ago. I want to log into my character do some dungeons, dsa, trials,etc and feel like I made progress. Lowering the cp on these would actually create more grinding. I honestly think that endgame content does not give enough cp. although I do agree that everything needs to give more.

This. Feeling the pain on the Undaunted skill lines having already finished basically all of the achievements before the extra ranks were added. Same thing applies here but a dozen times worse for people. I also am a bit baffled by the suggestions of diminishing returns or even outright caps on getting exp/items/boss kills/etc. which essentially would amount to "you can play the game 1-2 hours a day, because anything more is a waste of your time". That's like demanding that people be capped at one dollar higher wage than you (starting at some random arbitrary amount, at that ) because it wouldn't be fair for them to be able to do more/better/make the effort to earn anything more than you're able to.

I like the idea of "rested exp" as a bit of a mechanism to allow people who play little to still make some progress, but it's pretty silly in a game with hundreds of thousands of players to try to force everyone to conform to your playing time.

Helluin

Enodoc wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

• Cumulative enlightenment: I don't know if this is already in place, otherwise it should be implemented; not used Enlightenment (because offline or whatever reason) should stack so players are able to catch up more easily; this kind of experience cumulative bonus when offline is in place in many other MMORPGs

It does currently, but only up to a cap of 3 days' worth.

Then it's a problem for the reasons really well and carefully explained by @Mystikkal .

Mountainrunnin3

Well nice job, with update 6, and I appreciate all your hard work. I have no problems with the justice system and I think it brings a lot more to the game. The champion system is a little hard to get used to, and was a little confusing. For instance, I don't understand why the War Mount star is in the Tower constellation?

Another thing I have noticed is there has been an increased amount of people in pve. I guess that is not a bad thing, except for dungeons it is rather annoying when you're trying to get XP when the whole dungeon is cleared out, and all of the chests are taken.

I hope when you read this you can consider adding more to pvp in the next update. I think this would help redistribute the population of players and make the whole game experience more of an adventure.

Helluin

Mountainrunnin3 wrote: »

Another thing I have noticed is there has been an increased amount of people in pve. I guess that is not a bad thing, except for dungeons it is rather annoying when you're trying to get XP when the whole dungeon is cleared out, and all of the chests are taken.

Surely there are more PvP players doing that because forced to grind for many reasons and this is quite a shame.
With AP providing exp for CP or more exp in PvP, PvP focused players would be more in Cyrodiil.
In the short term this is fine, in the long term a PvP focused player would simply switch to a game where he/she can do what he/she likes.
Same would apply to a PvE focused player if forced to play PvP or a PvE content he/she doesn't like (as it was Skywatch farm for who prefers a more challenging PvE).

That's why exp in PvP, trials and dungeons needs a buff.

washlov

Brandalf wrote: »

washlov wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Make the system finishable within a reasonable time or you alienate your current and future playerbase.

It's not a system that's intended to be finished. How this is such a difficult concept to understand for so many people baffles me.

its a system for 24/7 farmers it feels like work
all things which does not give max xp now feel worthless
a game should be there to play not to worry about stats the hole time

No it's a system that passively progresses as you play the game as you otherwise would. If you or anyone else treats it like a race to some sort of end goal you're doing it wrong, simple as that. I haven't gained one single CP since update 6 launched and I'm content.

yea a system which gives passives and is linear and has no char individualization destroys the hole fairnes of the game and makes it to a 24/7 chinagrinder
the system runs on XP and not passively in the background