Sorcerers were over nerfed... again

byrom101b16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sorcs weren't overnerfed. They are still very strong in PVP when played by SKILLED players and they still suck in PVE, nothing new here .

Edit: That being said, leaderboards are not just about time and DPS anymore and sorcs can complete any content the game has to offer and are actually more useful in PVE in 1.6 than they where in 1.5.

As long as you can complete everything and that leaderboards aren't majorly influenced by the time it takes you to kill stuff but more by the # of deaths and some other stuff, I don't really see why care if the DPS of the sorc is 2-3k below others

Magicka Sorc will die more due to Light Armour nerfs, especially the current state of utterly pathetic spell resistance on LA wearers. That does have an impact on Trials, and as guilds get used to the new paradigm, and kill all without deaths, time will become most important once again.

At the end of the day, if your defences are the worst, your damage or utility should be the best. That's straight from the 'Dummies Guide to MMO Class Balancing'. Sadly, no-one at Zenimax seems to have read it, so this isn't true for magicka Sorceres in PvE.

Your statement here is very narrowly focussed TehMagus, and I hope you can see that being so, it's ultimately unhelpful in the wider balancing debate.

byrom101b16_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Personally I really like the recent sorc changes. Ive finally been able to drop S&B/resto for destro/resto in pvp. But pvp is not the issue for most sorcs out there, high sustained dps in pve is. I mainly do pvp now so I only run 1-2 dungeons each night but I manage to do around 10k dps, depending on the fight even towards 13k on undead. I choose some pvp morphs (lightning splash and crushing shock) so dedicated pve-ers should be able to do 10-15% higher dps.

The way to do high sustained dps is pretty simple actually. Stack spell damage as high as possible, I get over 2500 (major sorcery buff active) with set everyone can get. Use nirnhoned fire destro staff, 3x gold magicka reduction (3*7%=21%) glyphs on jewelry and make sure the healer applies elemental drain and/or siphon spirit. The rotation is simple as well, inner light > power surge > ma > lightning splash > ma > crushing shock > ma > repeat until cystal frags procs > cast lightning splash every 6 seconds > cast power surge every 20 seconds. Drop shooting star when its ready AND make sure the tank keeps the boss on the ground effect, very important for high dps!

I hope this is helpful for my fellow sorcerers because its possible to do good dps, even for casual players.

All very short static fights where ground based LL was spammable and your Ulti was a high source of damage.

I am getting tired of Sorcerer players posting these things and thinking short term PvE fight burst that comes close to sustained long term other class dps is somehow comparable, or shows the class is fine.

Try getting those highly selective results on the Engine Guardian in Darkshade...

pppontus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Personally I really like the recent sorc changes. Ive finally been able to drop S&B/resto for destro/resto in pvp. But pvp is not the issue for most sorcs out there, high sustained dps in pve is. I mainly do pvp now so I only run 1-2 dungeons each night but I manage to do around 10k dps, depending on the fight even towards 13k on undead. I choose some pvp morphs (lightning splash and crushing shock) so dedicated pve-ers should be able to do 10-15% higher dps.

The way to do high sustained dps is pretty simple actually. Stack spell damage as high as possible, I get over 2500 (major sorcery buff active) with set everyone can get. Use nirnhoned fire destro staff, 3x gold magicka reduction (3*7%=21%) glyphs on jewelry and make sure the healer applies elemental drain and/or siphon spirit. The rotation is simple as well, inner light > power surge > ma > lightning splash > ma > crushing shock > ma > repeat until cystal frags procs > cast lightning splash every 6 seconds > cast power surge every 20 seconds. Drop shooting star when its ready AND make sure the tank keeps the boss on the ground effect, very important for high dps!

I hope this is helpful for my fellow sorcerers because its possible to do good dps, even for casual players.

All very short static fights where ground based LL was spammable and your Ulti was a high source of damage.

I am getting tired of Sorcerer players posting these things and thinking short term PvE fight burst that comes close to sustained long term other class dps is somehow comparable, or shows the class is fine.

Try getting those highly selective results on the Engine Guardian in Darkshade...

Seriously mate, what the hell are you really trying to compare here? I guess you want Sorc DPS on EG to compare to DK burst DPS on a stationary target or what?

I can jump on my Sorc and LOL at any DK on Engine Guardian because they can't do ***. They can run around and Force Pulse while I use Explosive Curse, Pulse and Frag Procs and beat them by a massive amount of K in DPS. Plus I have an Atronach ult which can actually continue to DPS while the stupid thing is moving around, while their Standard will stand in a corner and damage him for 5 seconds total.

Everyone's DPS is low on EG.

Choose your *** comparison and stick to it. You continue to complain about how people share their DPS, but what is it you actually want? I can tell you a secret, on many of the fights where the Sorc can't use LL the DKs will lose a lot of DPS too. And we can actually do 12K+ from range without LL just with Curse+Pulse+Frags. If they can't apply DOTS, they aren't getting close to that.

Demira

MAOofDC wrote: »

I'm all for people playing their classes the way they want to, I happen to want to play a Magicka based Sorcerer in end game PvE content. You want to to play a stamina based Sorcerer that's cool. It's counter intuitive in my mind but hey play the game the way that you find fun. The issue I'm having, as it stands right now, is I am being pressured to play the game in a way that I don't want to play.

I don't want to use stamina to do my DPS or use a two handed sword skill spam. It's bad enough that I have to use the Destro staff for the crushing shock and elemental ring spells. I want to duel wield swords, one with a fire enchant and a frost enchant on the other. But the group needs someone who can stop the enemy healer at range so destro staff and crushing shock it is. Elemental ring is the easiest AoE to use and it has a larger AoE than liquid lightning.

So what I suggest to ZOS is this. Please find a way to make the silly (in my opinion) stamina sorcerer builds viable, but don't do it at the expense of the more traditional Magicka based builds. Forcing me to spend, my gold, to respec my entire build both stats and skills. My time because I'll need to re-craft my armor then go farming dungeons for better gear, assuming I can get a group to do it with in the first place.

Please find a way to make the Magicka based sorcerer more sustainable in PvE either giving use better passives for lower spells costs. Or increase the damage output of the spells. As far a making it more balanced for PvP simply don't allow the augmented abilities affect other players, it's not like you haven't done something like that before with other skills or abilities. For example I have yet to see an NPC roll dodge out of my AoE or break out of a CC. Players in PvP do this all the time.

I am in 100% agreement with you, MAOofDC

pppontus

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sorcs weren't overnerfed. They are still very strong in PVP when played by SKILLED players and they still suck in PVE, nothing new here .

Edit: That being said, leaderboards are not just about time and DPS anymore and sorcs can complete any content the game has to offer and are actually more useful in PVE in 1.6 than they where in 1.5.

As long as you can complete everything and that leaderboards aren't majorly influenced by the time it takes you to kill stuff but more by the # of deaths and some other stuff, I don't really see why care if the DPS of the sorc is 2-3k below others

I agree with the 2nd half of your statement.

Not to mention the fact that Sorc isn't 2-3K below others. Unless all other classes pull 18K (with under 90 CP) now

TehMagnus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sorcs weren't overnerfed. They are still very strong in PVP when played by SKILLED players and they still suck in PVE, nothing new here .

Edit: That being said, leaderboards are not just about time and DPS anymore and sorcs can complete any content the game has to offer and are actually more useful in PVE in 1.6 than they where in 1.5.

As long as you can complete everything and that leaderboards aren't majorly influenced by the time it takes you to kill stuff but more by the # of deaths and some other stuff, I don't really see why care if the DPS of the sorc is 2-3k below others

Magicka Sorc will die more due to Light Armour nerfs, especially the current state of utterly pathetic spell resistance on LA wearers. That does have an impact on Trials, and as guilds get used to the new paradigm, and kill all without deaths, time will become most important once again.

At the end of the day, if your defences are the worst, your damage or utility should be the best. That's straight from the 'Dummies Guide to MMO Class Balancing'. Sadly, no-one at Zenimax seems to have read it, so this isn't true for magicka Sorceres in PvE.

Your statement here is very narrowly focussed TehMagus, and I hope you can see that being so, it's ultimately unhelpful in the wider balancing debate.

Any magicka class will die more due to LA nerfs, so I don't really see what the point is here since it's the same for everybody else.

No death is really important in the new trial system. Time? I don't think so. As long as we don't understand how the points system in trials works exactly, we can't say "this class is no good". From what I've seen in VDSA, Time seems to have a very small impact in the final score.

"If your defenses are worst your damage or utility should be the best", or you can do a build with more resistance? Or you an farm CP in order to get dem bonuses that give you more resistance? It's not only true for sorcs, it's true for all the other classes, not everything revolves around sorcs stamina is doing more damage than magicka in many ocasions at the moment, so once again, your QQing about sorcs when the issue is general and you don't see magicka DKs/Ns or templars complaining with 10 open threads in General forums about it.

You can't have all classes at the same level, there is always a weaker one, "Balance" is a myth. Zos understands this and changed the leaderboards so that DPS is not the factor for best score. Instead of complaining in this thread about a new system that isn't even a month old where ALL THE CLASSES where nerfed your time would be best spent testing new builds/combinations and grinding CPs to get back to former strenght.

The only narrow focus is thinking that everything revolves about sorcs & DPS and not looking what is happening / has happened with other classes and the leaderboard system.

Septimus_Magna

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Personally I really like the recent sorc changes. Ive finally been able to drop S&B/resto for destro/resto in pvp. But pvp is not the issue for most sorcs out there, high sustained dps in pve is. I mainly do pvp now so I only run 1-2 dungeons each night but I manage to do around 10k dps, depending on the fight even towards 13k on undead. I choose some pvp morphs (lightning splash and crushing shock) so dedicated pve-ers should be able to do 10-15% higher dps.

The way to do high sustained dps is pretty simple actually. Stack spell damage as high as possible, I get over 2500 (major sorcery buff active) with set everyone can get. Use nirnhoned fire destro staff, 3x gold magicka reduction (3*7%=21%) glyphs on jewelry and make sure the healer applies elemental drain and/or siphon spirit. The rotation is simple as well, inner light > power surge > ma > lightning splash > ma > crushing shock > ma > repeat until cystal frags procs > cast lightning splash every 6 seconds > cast power surge every 20 seconds. Drop shooting star when its ready AND make sure the tank keeps the boss on the ground effect, very important for high dps!

I hope this is helpful for my fellow sorcerers because its possible to do good dps, even for casual players.

All very short static fights where ground based LL was spammable and your Ulti was a high source of damage.

I am getting tired of Sorcerer players posting these things and thinking short term PvE fight burst that comes close to sustained long term other class dps is somehow comparable, or shows the class is fine.

Try getting those highly selective results on the Engine Guardian in Darkshade...

Many end game boss fights are static, all bosses in AA, the serpent and the warrior/mantikora mostly. This is when high dps matters, the Engine Guardian is in no way a dps race, as long as you kill the adds there isnt any threat of wiping. A DKs dps will also be significantly lower on the Engine Guardian because it doesnt stay in the Standard for example, it isnt something that only applies to sorc dps.

The point I was trying to make is that pve dps isnt bad (even with my pvp morph choices). Also, magicka management isnt hard with 3 gold cost reduction glyphs so if I can manage it during a 50 second fight I can manage it during a 20 minute fight. Shooting star costs 170 ultimate for me, with 3 ulti regen per second for normal attacks and 9 ultimate if I only hit one target I can drop it every 54 seconds without other ultimate gains.

If you want to do the highest dps possible I would suggest to level all 4 classes to vr14 so you can switch each time ZOS makes a class change. If you dont want to do that (which is very understandable) I would suggest to look for a way to do good dps with your sorc.

Digiman

Snit wrote: »

Please don't forget sorc healers. There are literally no sorc actives that directly aid that role.

It seems they only care about Stamina based DPS at the moment. Actually that has been there main focus since launch. Magical ranged DPS and healing they utterly hate working given their behaviour and track recorded with changes. It's either give a magicka ability that is overwhelmingly powerful that it trumps all or cripple an class skill line completely.

Bound Aegis should increase healing done like Igneous Shield. Pretty simply.

Reykice wrote: »

The Hit points per second are important as it is our healing ability after all... well it was anyway.

They nerfed its healing for casters to 40%, they nerfed it by adding a cooldown, they changed the passive thus nerfed it by making it cost 10% more....

Then there are the indirect nerfs... like reducing the light armor armor value so you now have to use at least 2 heavy armor pieces, this reduces the amount of spell cost reduction you get.

Surge used to give a lot of weapon damage, enough to make up for its high cost... and you could spec critical chance to get a reliable good heal vs single targets and an OP one for AOE. I get that the nerfed the AOE heal... but the way the implemented that and the buff changed ruined this loved ability. It now provides the same buff entropy does, yet entropy costs a lot less. Its cost was increased by the passive change and the other changed... yet its a lot less effective at both healing AND bonus damage.

Entropy also gets boosted by the mage's guild passives just making it far more need for Magical DPS and survivability. Surge itself was utterly broken with the change, if they didn't want an AoE heal then make the healing proc trigger from Single target Direct Damage attacks. The CD was ridiculous even if they lowered it to .001 sec it still broke the use of DoT abilites like elemental ring, crushing shock, etc.

The healing wasn't that OP either since it completely relied on Critical strikes to trigger and applying damage on targets. Either you would run out of resources or get focused down and killed quickly.

Reykice wrote: »

They should have seen this coming, a game designer should have looked at every ability and think about how it will be impacted by the changes and modify cost/duration etc accordingly. Its pretty clear they did not do that... so they broke a lot of things.

What is bad for us and in the long run for them is that they literally do not care... they are ignoring this... maybe it will see some changes a few months from now, maybe it won`t. Or maybe they want to charge us for it, who knows?

This was intentional, it was shouted about by PTS testers and told by many long time sorcerer players that this would cripple not only sorcerer healing but combination uses with DoT's. Eric Wrobel ignored this and even ducked out of speaking to the community concerns about it when Gina hoped to arrange it.

It's utterly disgusting and sickening considering the track record they have with the ranged magical DPS class. Because Sorcerers are the only ones who can commit to ranged magical DPS we have very different game mechanics wise it comes to development and maintenance and the ZoS combat team know and hate this.

Our track record of development speaks for itself with utter betrayal of their philosophy of being able to use any ability when ever you wanted as long as you have the resources, to massive hard handed nerfs to pigeon holing us into specific skill line to do steady DPS. From relying to 4m radius AoE for sustained DPS.

Hopefully they reverse surge's healing CD when they patch for Tamerial unlimited on Monday. So at the very least there is reason to use this ability with DoT's and hoping we don't get screwed by the RNG of a crit healing us for 90 health while another crit inflicting 12,000 damage gets passed up.

Eitherway I wash my hands from PTS testing, its was a waste of time to download and test combat mechanics and send feedback and suggestions.

Septimus_Magna

Digiman wrote: »

Hopefully they reverse surge's healing CD when they patch for Tamerial unlimited on Monday. So at the very least there is reason to use this ability with DoT's and hoping we don't get screwed by the RNG of a crit healing us for 90 health while another crit inflicting 12,000 damage gets passed up.

Yeah, Im also hoping for such a change but I highly doubt it. Without softcaps and the CS its very 'dangerous' for the balance of the game to have an ability that buffs damage and heals based off crit damage without a time limitation. End game spell crit calcualation: base spell crit 10% + 10% LA passive + 10% inner light + 12% 30CP passive + 25% 100CPs = 67% spell crit without any spell crit gear or pvp buffs.

A player with +50% spell crit and high spell damage would receive big heals very often while doing very high damage. Therefore the cooldown timer was introduced, reducing the frequency of received heals (with is necessary for game balance) but also reducing the value of each heal (it can heal for 40% of crit burning damage which will be next to nothing).

The best solution would be to change the heal to the average crit damage done during 0,25 second. Crits from dots and other low damage effects would decrease the heal you receive every 0,25 seconds but without completely negating the big crit damage from heavy attacks, crystal frags, meteor etc. It might be necessary to change the percentage of crit damage power surge heals for though. I hope you read this @ZOS_GinaBruno and consider this change, I know it would make many sorcs happy.

Erock25

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Hopefully they reverse surge's healing CD when they patch for Tamerial unlimited on Monday. So at the very least there is reason to use this ability with DoT's and hoping we don't get screwed by the RNG of a crit healing us for 90 health while another crit inflicting 12,000 damage gets passed up.

Yeah, Im also hoping for such a change but I highly doubt it. Without softcaps and the CS its very 'dangerous' for the balance of the game to have an ability that buffs damage and heals based off crit damage without a time limitation. End game spell crit calcualation: base spell crit 10% + 10% LA passive + 10% inner light + 12% 30CP passive + 25% 100CPs = 67% spell crit without any spell crit gear or pvp buffs.

A player with +50% spell crit and high spell damage would receive big heals very often while doing very high damage. Therefore the cooldown timer was introduced, reducing the frequency of received heals (with is necessary for game balance) but also reducing the value of each heal (it can heal for 40% of crit burning damage which will be next to nothing).

The best solution would be to change the heal to the average crit damage done during 0,25 second. Crits from dots and other low damage effects would decrease the heal you receive every 0,25 seconds but without completely negating the big crit damage from heavy attacks, crystal frags, meteor etc. It might be necessary to change the percentage of crit damage power surge heals for though. I hope you read this @ZOS_GinaBruno and consider this change, I know it would make many sorcs happy.

I agree with what you are saying but I'm fairly certain that there is no 25% crit chance champion point passive. I believe the only passive dealing with crit increases crit damage and not chance.

Heruthema

Why is there such a push to destroy Magicka based Sorcs? Sorcerers are and have always been about Magic. If you want Stamina based characters play tradition stamina based characters like DK's. Do not destroy a class that most pick because they want a magicka based character.

Septimus_Magna

Erock25 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Hopefully they reverse surge's healing CD when they patch for Tamerial unlimited on Monday. So at the very least there is reason to use this ability with DoT's and hoping we don't get screwed by the RNG of a crit healing us for 90 health while another crit inflicting 12,000 damage gets passed up.

Yeah, Im also hoping for such a change but I highly doubt it. Without softcaps and the CS its very 'dangerous' for the balance of the game to have an ability that buffs damage and heals based off crit damage without a time limitation. End game spell crit calcualation: base spell crit 10% + 10% LA passive + 10% inner light + 12% 30CP passive + 25% 100CPs = 67% spell crit without any spell crit gear or pvp buffs.

A player with +50% spell crit and high spell damage would receive big heals very often while doing very high damage. Therefore the cooldown timer was introduced, reducing the frequency of received heals (with is necessary for game balance) but also reducing the value of each heal (it can heal for 40% of crit burning damage which will be next to nothing).

The best solution would be to change the heal to the average crit damage done during 0,25 second. Crits from dots and other low damage effects would decrease the heal you receive every 0,25 seconds but without completely negating the big crit damage from heavy attacks, crystal frags, meteor etc. It might be necessary to change the percentage of crit damage power surge heals for though. I hope you read this @ZOS_GinaBruno and consider this change, I know it would make many sorcs happy.

I agree with what you are saying but I'm fairly certain that there is no 25% crit chance champion point passive. I believe the only passive dealing with crit increases crit damage and not chance.

I believe you can get up to 25% spell crit if you put 100 CP in Elfborn from the Apprentice. This is not realistic anytime soon but 10% spell crit is easily obtainable.

Erock25

Heruthema wrote: »

Why is there such a push to destroy Magicka based Sorcs? Sorcerers are and have always been about Magic. If you want Stamina based characters play tradition stamina based characters like DK's. Do not destroy a class that most pick because they want a magicka based character.

Why do you think adding two or three morphs that are beneficial to a stamina Sorc would destroy magicka Sorc? Would improving Crit Surge to be more stamina build friendly, changing Crystal Blast to stamina morph, and something like letting pets scale on magicka or stamina really DESTROY magicka Sorc?

Also, what do you mean by DK is traditionally a stamina based character? You are aware that as of 2 weeks ago or whenever it was, 100% of class abilities were magicka, right?

byrom101b16_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Hopefully they reverse surge's healing CD when they patch for Tamerial unlimited on Monday. So at the very least there is reason to use this ability with DoT's and hoping we don't get screwed by the RNG of a crit healing us for 90 health while another crit inflicting 12,000 damage gets passed up.

Yeah, Im also hoping for such a change but I highly doubt it. Without softcaps and the CS its very 'dangerous' for the balance of the game to have an ability that buffs damage and heals based off crit damage without a time limitation. End game spell crit calcualation: base spell crit 10% + 10% LA passive + 10% inner light + 12% 30CP passive + 25% 100CPs = 67% spell crit without any spell crit gear or pvp buffs.

A player with +50% spell crit and high spell damage would receive big heals very often while doing very high damage. Therefore the cooldown timer was introduced, reducing the frequency of received heals (with is necessary for game balance) but also reducing the value of each heal (it can heal for 40% of crit burning damage which will be next to nothing).

The best solution would be to change the heal to the average crit damage done during 0,25 second. Crits from dots and other low damage effects would decrease the heal you receive every 0,25 seconds but without completely negating the big crit damage from heavy attacks, crystal frags, meteor etc. It might be necessary to change the percentage of crit damage power surge heals for though. I hope you read this @ZOS_GinaBruno and consider this change, I know it would make many sorcs happy.

I agree with what you are saying but I'm fairly certain that there is no 25% crit chance champion point passive. I believe the only passive dealing with crit increases crit damage and not chance.

I believe you can get up to 25% spell crit if you put 100 CP in Elfborn from the Apprentice. This is not realistic anytime soon but 10% spell crit is easily obtainable.

Elfborn increases your crit damage, not the crit chance.

Merlin13KAGL

Erock25 wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

Why is there such a push to destroy Magicka based Sorcs? Sorcerers are and have always been about Magic. If you want Stamina based characters play tradition stamina based characters like DK's. Do not destroy a class that most pick because they want a magicka based character.

Why do you think adding two or three morphs that are beneficial to a stamina Sorc would destroy magicka Sorc? Would improving Crit Surge to be more stamina build friendly, changing Crystal Blast to stamina morph, and something like letting pets scale on magicka or stamina really DESTROY magicka Sorc?

Also, what do you mean by DK is traditionally a stamina based character? You are aware that as of 2 weeks ago or whenever it was, 100% of class abilities were magicka, right?

@Erock25 , the truth is that stamina based vs magicka based anything kind of creates a sub-class, which is not, in itself, a bad thing (options are good.)

Neither should take from the other. A better way would be to have an additional skill/passive or just a built in mechanic that would allow the skills/morphs you take to be based on the stat of your choosing (referring to S/M at the moment) and affect the stat of your choosing. (It could be a skill in itself, base skill gives 1/2 Magicka, 1/2 Stamina options, each morph gives the option to lock in to one resource pool.)

This would make it equally beneficial to both groups without taking any options away from the other.

With the present design, basing something on one has no choice but to take away from the other. This is not good for either side.

Stamina based Sorcs should be viable, Magicka based Sorcs should be viable (not saying either one is or is not).

The ultimate problem is, instead of going with the open class system of the standalones, they shoehorned themselves into limited possibilities. Hybrid builds (non-standard anything) are not favored by this design. In the standalone's, hybrids were embraced.

Class skills, Weapons Skills, Stamina based, and Magicka based should not automatically be tied in together.

That's what they've effectively done, and now they're trying to figure out the best way to undo it without mucking up balance even further.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

I just can't believe that BECAUSE they gave us a 35% heal on Clannfear they then double nerfed us with a cast time and rebate neutering. I wish they just never gave the Clannfear heal in the first place and we could keep Rebate. Even if you aren't using pets, it is nice to get that magicka back when your Atro dies. It is just a very Sorc like experience to be given a heal on PTS and then get double nerfed to make the heal useless while also nerfing other aspects of the class. And I [snip] you not, it is because quite a few high profile DKs, that for some reason have ZOS's ear, were giving tons and tons of feedback to get it removed. DKs putting in time to whine about another class, that's rich.

The timing on the heal is very silly anyway. If the clanfear just died it's most likely it and not you that was getting hit. You probably won't need the heal until a couple more seconds while your attempting to summon your next clanfear. A better passive would be a ward to protect you while you're resummoning not a premature heal.

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

sure, any stealth attack is our death. anytime were up against 2 people we are dead, mostly. i have never died so much before even with damage sheilds.

Are you using Radiant Magelight in PvP?

MADshadowman wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

They need to understand they should balance mitigation with damage, the less armor you have the more damage you should do....

They need to understand that balancing is not nerfing one thing til it becomes useless and buffing another thing til it's ridiculously OP. Before 1.6 light armor was awesome and medium and heavy were sub par/useless, now they nerfed light armor and buffed the other 2 and we're back at the same situation. why is it so hard to give all armor types/weapon types/class skills an equal strength and usefulness?

I agree, they don't seem to understand the subtlety and how to make slight adjustments. Everything about this update shows that. The super inflated numbers and the ridiculous nerf to light armor while simultaneously making heavy armor powerful. The thing is nobody asked them to change light armor. We asked to make heavy armor better. Bound Armor used to have some use and now it's basically pointless. It doesn't even offer the same protection as medium armor. For something that takes up at least one spell slot, two if you keep it on both bars, it really should be a lot better than what it is.

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

ive returned to the game for the first time this year, and i felt my magicka pool dramatically increased, allowing to spam certian skills, but my damage was way down.

so long as i stick to healing me and my pets, the empowered ward, and the deadric prey spell, my survivablitiy is very high, it just takes me longer to kill mobs.

problem is thats the only build that really feels better, my other build, something i like to call the maelstrom, which was impulse, volcanic rune, that storm armor, magelight, and crit surge got nurfed bit time. Dont get me wrong, it still 'kinda' works, but its more vulnerable than before. even then it only worked on large groups.

so yes, i feel weaker dps speaking, but my resilience and magicka pool feels far better than before. we are meant to be glass cannons, yet i feel like a self repairing glass cannon shooting snowballs.

I actually like that we have more synergy with some of our spells and pets and I feel like being a summoner is a lot more viable than pre 1.6. It's really only good in PvE though.

Psychobunni wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

No ma'am. Just No. I want my magicka based sorcerer to have comparative damage abilities without pets or toggles...just like the other classes. I didn't make her to pet wrangle or swing a sword I made her for awesome magic damage, she is just missing the awesome part.

I agree. But I feel sorcerers should have the potential to be very versatile. I like pets for solo survivability but I should be able to forgo them in order to increase my DPS in groups and trials. I should be able to rely more on my bound armor in PvP instead of having to use crafted heavy armor and sacrificing any light armor bonuses.

Vahrokh

Cinbri wrote: »

After playing 1.6 and reading forum threads that "sorcs are nerfed", i start thinking that something really-really wrong with community. Be glad that after ocean of sorc QQ on forum they made them unkillable in pvp. If you nub and wanna rock in pvp just chose sorc and hit like a track (Crystal shards vs 12000 impenetrable in heavy armor and defensive CP hit for 15k damage, with abusing animation canceling you hitted by fury, shards and crash shock at same time=this is balance sorcs are dreamed of i guess).

Yeah, because in a game where PvP is DEAD, making the vast majoirty of sorcs stink in PvE and a tiny minority good in PvP is certainly going to help with ZoS bottom line!

Psychobunni

Thread makes my head hurt. How about instead of arguing with words the ones that say magicka sorc's are fine...simply post the numbers from trials to show everyone instead of TLDR's? I mean if they are doing comparative dps, this should be easy right?

Vahrokh

TehMagnus wrote: »

As long as you can complete everything and that leaderboards aren't majorly influenced by the time it takes you to kill stuff but more by the # of deaths and some other stuff

In order to do 3-4k less than the other classes (not all play in Hodor and get competent synergy) sorcs have to lose 2-3k health. Even if content is still decently doable, a class with less health shall statistically die more often and thus be statistically less wanted by guilds who put the new content on farm and then have only sorcs dying and ruining their score.

TehMagnus wrote: »

I don't really see why care if the DPS of the sorc is 2-3k below others

I don't really see why care to NOT bring sorcs DPS within 1k below others.

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

Seriously mate, what the hell are you really trying to compare here? I guess you want Sorc DPS on EG to compare to DK burst DPS on a stationary target or what?

I have seen a lot of different mobs being taken as reference. They won't really help making informed comparison.

What about measuring all the DPS over a standard boss?

I suggest the third boss in AA. Most guilds and even PUGs can get there. She goot beefy health and is THE DPS race encounter by definition. It's also one of the few where we don't get asked to do suboptimal DPS because of the need to cast negates or self heal and so on.

TehMagnus

As said previously, sorcs weren't nerfed, at best you can say they are as limited as before. Everything else is just QQ to get more buffs.

pppontus

Psychobunni wrote: »

Thread makes my head hurt. How about instead of arguing with words the ones that say magicka sorc's are fine...simply post the numbers from trials to show everyone instead of TLDR's? I mean if they are doing comparative dps, this should be easy right?

I will most definitely do that, gonna check if I screen capped some already or I'll try and remember it for next time. However, has any other class posted any or what are we comparing to? Do we have any requirements of skill level/familiarity with rotation etc.?

There is a reason why people do DPS tests under ideal circumstances, it's not to prove a point but to eliminate all the guesswork. Now that Trial bosses have seemingly random resistances (someone was saying that he hit the Serpent for 50% less than some vet dungeon bosses) and all fights have different mechanics, it's hard to find where to make a comparison.

My honest suggestion would be for everyone to try stuff themselves instead. No one saying it's good or bad has anything more than personal opinion to back it up with. Like I said before, my guildies are far better at playing their Sorcs than I am, or any class for that matter. Some people are simply more skilled than others and that carries with them when playing all the classes.

I can't compare myself on a Sorc to someone more skilled on a DK because he'll win, but he'll also win on his Sorc versus my DK - and that is why I consider the Magicka Sorc to be in balance. Because it's about player skill, not the class, right now. Once everyone starts getting into new builds and maximizing the potential, if it then shows that Sorcs lag behind.. sure, then it should be fixed. But Zenimax understands this and it's why they are reluctant to buff Magicka Sorcs right now, because people are doing really good on them.

People are staring themselves blind at numbers, and I've honestly had people comment saying that X or Y is bad because they are doing 10K on a trial boss because they saw a DK who did 16K with a bugged nirnhoned staff on a given stationary target with no threat.

Obviously some people think it's better to ask for buffs sooner rather than later, but at the moment I truly believe it could lead to nothing good. You have to realise if something is buffed to far, it will just get nerfed harder, and that's a mess no one wants to see.

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Seriously mate, what the hell are you really trying to compare here? I guess you want Sorc DPS on EG to compare to DK burst DPS on a stationary target or what?

I have seen a lot of different mobs being taken as reference. They won't really help making informed comparison.

What about measuring all the DPS over a standard boss?

I suggest the third boss in AA. Most guilds and even PUGs can get there. She goot beefy health and is THE DPS race encounter by definition. It's also one of the few where we don't get asked to do suboptimal DPS because of the need to cast negates or self heal and so on.

I'll try and get a comparison done there. Might not be as easy as it seems since we don't ask Melee to switch targets during that fight so as a Sorc you'll lose more DPS by making yourself useful and killing off the adds.

Either way, as TehMagnus stated above, I think we might be making too big of a deal out of DPS numbers, considering there are more punishments and mechanics in place behind the leaderboard system now.

Edit: Also a funny remark here is they buffed the health of bosses a lot in AA and Hel Ra.. took us less than a week and we already kill the bosses pretty much as fast as in 1.5. There should be no worries that any class can't beat something, you could still beat AA/HR with 12 Sorcs or 12 of any other class if you really wanted. Imagine what's gonna happen once people get more CP, this games PVE is going to be such a joke.

Vahrokh

TehMagnus wrote: »

As said previously, sorcs weren't nerfed, at best you can say they are as limited as before. Everything else is just QQ to get more buffs.

No they are somewhat better in certain aspects (finally using "native" class abilities), in others they became bland (must waste 2 + 2 ability slots to toggles, YAWN gameplay), in others they became buggier (pets now randomly aggro bosses, maybe it's luck but I have never seen this happen pre 1.6), in others they became worse.

In particular, having done AA enough to have 5 of every set piece, I can feel it's easier to die and DPS is somewhat less than before. Not by much, your "as limited as before" argument has its merits.
But become a bit worse when we were dead last DPS already... that does not sound right.

When I saw some guys triumphally show off their Sorc doing 1.2k DPS... others 1.4k DPS... well... you KNOW I play in a veeeeeeeery soft core guild, however we had NBs and DKs easily pulling 1.7-1.8k with 1/4 of the effort a sorc would take to do 1.4k. I repeat, NON hard core guild NBs and DKs pulling those numbers vs hard core sorcs pulling those lesser numbers. That in itself is not fair already.
Come patch 1.6, we lose an additional little terrain, but it's an addition to being dead last already.


Now, had sorcs tank powerhouse specs or had a godlike healer spec, you could say: "see, you can't be the best at everything". But we are not powerhouses at anything.

All this crap as a sacrifice on the PvP altar, an altar just a tiny minority even gives a damn about, in this game.

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

As said previously, sorcs weren't nerfed, at best you can say they are as limited as before. Everything else is just QQ to get more buffs.

No they are somewhat better in certain aspects (finally using "native" class abilities), in others they became bland (must waste 2 + 2 ability slots to toggles, YAWN gameplay), in others they became buggier (pets now randomly aggro bosses, maybe it's luck but I have never seen this happen pre 1.6), in others they became worse.

In particular, having done AA enough to have 5 of every set piece, I can feel it's easier to die and DPS is somewhat less than before. Not by much, your "as limited as before" argument has its merits.
But become a bit worse when we were dead last DPS already... that does not sound right.

When I saw some guys triumphally show off their Sorc doing 1.2k DPS... others 1.4k DPS... well... you KNOW I play in a veeeeeeeery soft core guild, however we had NBs and DKs easily pulling 1.7-1.8k with 1/4 of the effort a sorc would take to do 1.4k. I repeat, NON hard core guild NBs and DKs pulling those numbers vs hard core sorcs pulling those lesser numbers. That in itself is not fair already.
Come patch 1.6, we lose an additional little terrain, but it's an addition to being dead last already.

The fact that pets aggro bosses is completely ridiculous, and needs to be fixed. No arguments there. I don't even use them because I think they're boring tho.

Overall, DPS should be more than before though for most classes, if you consider the average health buff is *7 you only need about 10K to equal 1,4K before.

I'm really and honestly super impressed if you've had NBs (especially) and DKs pull 1,7K+ single target in 1.5, that is absolutely amazing and if they had joined us they would be by far the highest DPS of their respective classes in a pretty good endgame guild (#7 AA, #5 HR). So they might be in a non hardcore guild, but they are not your average players, I can tell you that.

Dyride

I like the idea of Crystal blast being Stamina based. I think making the animation actually 1 sec (serious!), keep the AOE, with slightly less damage and make the range be 15m.

Also having a class execute based off of stamina would be awesome.

Lightning Form damage could scale of of health, this would give Tanks a nice DPS boost. I don't want either Lightning Form morph to be stamina, they are a needed magicka dump.

Expert Mage could include 1% Weapon Power per sorc ability in addition to Spell Power, call it the Battle Mage passive.

For Surge, it is complicated because it is so easy to go back to being an OP ability. I think the best solution is to cap the total numbers of Heals per second to 3. As it stands now, my HPS averages around 10-20% of my outgoing damage with 55% cir chance and is so sporadic that I can't rely on it.

Just lower the cost of Critical Surge already. So expensive for such little utility. Or keep the high cost and have it provide another buff/utility like Minor Force for 5 secs or something. Right now, it costs roughly half my magicka.

Troneon

Watch this stream right now of Deltia playing an awesome Sorc build.

Then tell me sorc is underpowered. lol

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

As said previously, sorcs weren't nerfed, at best you can say they are as limited as before. Everything else is just QQ to get more buffs.

No they are somewhat better in certain aspects (finally using "native" class abilities), in others they became bland (must waste 2 + 2 ability slots to toggles, YAWN gameplay), in others they became buggier (pets now randomly aggro bosses, maybe it's luck but I have never seen this happen pre 1.6), in others they became worse.

In particular, having done AA enough to have 5 of every set piece, I can feel it's easier to die and DPS is somewhat less than before. Not by much, your "as limited as before" argument has its merits.
But become a bit worse when we were dead last DPS already... that does not sound right.

When I saw some guys triumphally show off their Sorc doing 1.2k DPS... others 1.4k DPS... well... you KNOW I play in a veeeeeeeery soft core guild, however we had NBs and DKs easily pulling 1.7-1.8k with 1/4 of the effort a sorc would take to do 1.4k. I repeat, NON hard core guild NBs and DKs pulling those numbers vs hard core sorcs pulling those lesser numbers. That in itself is not fair already.
Come patch 1.6, we lose an additional little terrain, but it's an addition to being dead last already.

The fact that pets aggro bosses is completely ridiculous, and needs to be fixed. No arguments there. I don't even use them because I think they're boring tho.

Overall, DPS should be more than before though for most classes, if you consider the average health buff is *7 you only need about 10K to equal 1,4K before.

I'm really and honestly super impressed if you've had NBs (especially) and DKs pull 1,7K+ single target in 1.5, that is absolutely amazing and if they had joined us they would be by far the highest DPS of their respective classes in a pretty good endgame guild (#7 AA, #5 HR). So they might be in a non hardcore guild, but they are not your average players, I can tell you that.

Well, we do play with TehMagnus and some of his friends some times We certainly learned a LOT off them.

By the way which is your build on TF? I am playing the "Zappy end game PvE" build at the moment. Even got so lucky to immediately find the Cyro light rings. However I find the build a bit weird. In example, the first spell has less range than the others whereas logic would suggest to open with the long range stuff first, while you close in.

Vahrokh

Troneon wrote: »

Watch this stream right now of Deltia playing an awesome Sorc build.

Then tell me sorc is underpowered. lol

If we wanted to play a stamina class we'd have rolled DK or NB?

I mean, what's the point: dual wield. Uses bow at times. Stamina powered. Basically a NB clone.

It's cool some actually love playing a NB-with-gown but that's hardly the mainstream vision of "mage with mana, robes and staff" me and most others want to play.

Reykice

Troneon wrote: »

Watch this stream right now of Deltia playing an awesome Sorc build.

Then tell me sorc is underpowered. lol

Its a stamina build lol

Erock25

Troneon wrote: »

Watch this stream right now of Deltia playing an awesome Sorc build.

Then tell me sorc is underpowered. lol

He doesn't seem to be playing very seriously (saw him throw on a green level bow) but his DPS numbers are extremely poor in most cases. I doubt he is going for maximum efficiency here though and is just trying to have a good time.