Sorcerers were over nerfed... again

CP5

Malpherian wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

Why the hell would you give a "MAGIC" based class the ability to use stamina for their skills? I think you are completely "Oblivious" to the point of being a sorcerer..... People choose a sorcerer, because they want to use "MAGIC".....

If you think the sorces lack of ability to choose stamina builds is the issue you're missing the point entirely. If the games Devs are as Oblivious as you as to the actual problems with the classes, and the the game in general, I am un- installing it right now. Because this game is doomed to fail.

"The point people are trying to make is that they "SHOULDN'T have to" in order to be competitive." Among other things.

A few things I want to say, with it being almost 4am after an "interesting" night of pvp. First I would like to say why I chose the sorcerer as my main class. Before the game went live I looked over all the skill trees for each class, knowing that I would be running a full set of medium armor and using a bow. Each class had their perks, the survivability, cc options and general utility, and I chose the sorcerer for what made it unique. I loved the clannfear back from oblivion, sending it out to chase down enemies while I sat back filling them with arrows, dark magic has a lot of options for keeping enemies at bay, and the mine field fit my idea of a kiting archer real well. Then storm calling had both boundless storm, critical surge and bolt escape for the power and mobility I was looking for in a class. I chose the sorcerer for what it was since I don't see any class as having a "required" magic or stamina role.

Second, I would like to point back out (as others have already stated this) what sorcerer's are in the world of the elder scrolls. Sorcerers are magicka batteries, with their original design being that they didn't regen magicka but instead absorbed it from their enemies attacks. To do this they would build up a large amount of stamina to survive the attacks, and use heavy or medium armor to buy them enough time to get into melee range to use powerful on touch spells, and they would compliment their abilities with enchanted armor, conjured allies and defensive magic (not using a shield). So while some see sorcerer's as mages, that is a completely different elder scrolls class, sorcerers from this series use any weapon, wear heavier armors than just cloth, and are more than just squishy casters.

After writing this I think I have an idea for one of their passives, magicka absorb. Going back to the original idea for the class, give sorcerer's a higher magicka resist the lower their max magicka is and make it so they regen magicka from all hostile spells. That would make them unique, be helpful regardless of build and fun.

Refs:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes#Sorcerer
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Sorcerer
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Sorcerer

tldr: its 4am, no spell check or logic check.

Valymer

Spangla wrote: »

Unfortunately - Magica NB has been killed, Magica nb will now never be as good as mgaica sorc, not even close.

Why do sorcs need a competitive stamina build? They are running around one shotting people in pvp! Please ZOS STOP LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE! Threads like this are the reason you released this fail patch in the first place

If you'd actually read the thread, you'd realize that it's mostly a discussion of PvE shortcomings.

ZOS has already demonstrated that they have the technical ability to make skills function differently in Cyrodiil than outside of it. So campaigning against PvE changes due to PvP imbalance is rather silly.

What people should be demanding is that PvP and PvE start developing separately as far as skills are concerned. The skills could have the same names and basically work the same, but could be more powerful or less powerful in Cyrodiil depending on what was needed for overall balance. Other games have done this and as I said it is something that Zenimax has already done, so I don't see why there isn't a push for this.

That is the only way to achieve any semblance of balance in this game.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Spangla wrote: »

Unfortunately - Magica NB has been killed, Magica nb will now never be as good as mgaica sorc, not even close.

Why do sorcs need a competitive stamina build? They are running around one shotting people in pvp! Please ZOS STOP LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE! Threads like this are the reason you released this fail patch in the first place

ok first off, this thread was about magicka Sorcerors untill a ZOS person came in with a stupid comment showing their aim is currently to be more stupid...

Liea

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

I would like to see magicka-based sorcerers repaired because outside of PVP we are completely broken.

Kova

pppontus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

As said previously, sorcs weren't nerfed, at best you can say they are as limited as before. Everything else is just QQ to get more buffs.

No they are somewhat better in certain aspects (finally using "native" class abilities), in others they became bland (must waste 2 + 2 ability slots to toggles, YAWN gameplay), in others they became buggier (pets now randomly aggro bosses, maybe it's luck but I have never seen this happen pre 1.6), in others they became worse.

In particular, having done AA enough to have 5 of every set piece, I can feel it's easier to die and DPS is somewhat less than before. Not by much, your "as limited as before" argument has its merits.
But become a bit worse when we were dead last DPS already... that does not sound right.

When I saw some guys triumphally show off their Sorc doing 1.2k DPS... others 1.4k DPS... well... you KNOW I play in a veeeeeeeery soft core guild, however we had NBs and DKs easily pulling 1.7-1.8k with 1/4 of the effort a sorc would take to do 1.4k. I repeat, NON hard core guild NBs and DKs pulling those numbers vs hard core sorcs pulling those lesser numbers. That in itself is not fair already.
Come patch 1.6, we lose an additional little terrain, but it's an addition to being dead last already.

The fact that pets aggro bosses is completely ridiculous, and needs to be fixed. No arguments there. I don't even use them because I think they're boring tho.

Overall, DPS should be more than before though for most classes, if you consider the average health buff is *7 you only need about 10K to equal 1,4K before.

I'm really and honestly super impressed if you've had NBs (especially) and DKs pull 1,7K+ single target in 1.5, that is absolutely amazing and if they had joined us they would be by far the highest DPS of their respective classes in a pretty good endgame guild (#7 AA, #5 HR). So they might be in a non hardcore guild, but they are not your average players, I can tell you that.

Well, we do play with TehMagnus and some of his friends some times We certainly learned a LOT off them.

By the way which is your build on TF? I am playing the "Zappy end game PvE" build at the moment. Even got so lucky to immediately find the Cyro light rings. However I find the build a bit weird. In example, the first spell has less range than the others whereas logic would suggest to open with the long range stuff first, while you close in.

I didn't think even they were doing 1,7K on true single target, but that I of course don't know for sure. ^^

My build is this one: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/

Now, be warned, I am not that good at it (yet, I hope) and my guildies are doing a few K more DPS with the same setup

Your build is great btw. I was able to join you in the 12-14k range tonight, although I'm having a little trouble with the heavy weave into crushing shock. That aside, I really wish Sorc builds didn't have to be so meticulous to pull off last place dps, but I'm understanding more and more that it really is just a number when it comes to being a good player.

I'm sure many Sorcerers have been the last man standing during a wipe, saved a team mate with CC when they became careless, or infinitely healing springed their team through a boss's AOE when the templar just couldn't cut it.

Etem

More stamina morphs for our class abilities. Toggle armor and dark deal aren't exciting to use. At all.

Vahrokh

Kova wrote: »

I'm sure many Sorcerers have been the last man standing during a wipe, saved a team mate with CC when they became careless, or infinitely healing springed their team through a boss's AOE when the templar just couldn't cut it.

Yeah, I have always loved that. In WOW my druid was always the last man standing (and as the only class with combat ress, I felt able to change the battle outcomes).

Before patch 1.6 I'd have a NICE build able to single target, AoE, HEAL and also be the other trial survivor along with the tank.

Now all of this is over.

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

I'm sure many Sorcerers have been the last man standing during a wipe, saved a team mate with CC when they became careless, or infinitely healing springed their team through a boss's AOE when the templar just couldn't cut it.

Yeah, I have always loved that. In WOW my druid was always the last man standing (and as the only class with combat ress, I felt able to change the battle outcomes).

Before patch 1.6 I'd have a NICE build able to single target, AoE, HEAL and also be the other trial survivor along with the tank.

Now all of this is over.

Well in all honesty, if 10 people are dead in a trial it's usually kind of over.

I did have an interesting thing happen tho on the first AA we ran post-patch and we were getting used to the "get in the glowy thing" on the first boss. I had forgot to unslot my ward and using that I managed to survive when everyone but me, the tank and one more DPS died and we had the boss at like 15% and just kept warding and dpsing slowly.. actually was gonna kill it but we decided to wipe at 1% to get more practice

Oh well, not really practical, but a funny story on that theme. Generally I know of no dps that slots survivability skills in trials, we all need them slots for DPS.

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

I'm sure many Sorcerers have been the last man standing during a wipe, saved a team mate with CC when they became careless, or infinitely healing springed their team through a boss's AOE when the templar just couldn't cut it.

Yeah, I have always loved that. In WOW my druid was always the last man standing (and as the only class with combat ress, I felt able to change the battle outcomes).

Before patch 1.6 I'd have a NICE build able to single target, AoE, HEAL and also be the other trial survivor along with the tank.

Now all of this is over.

Well in all honesty, if 10 people are dead in a trial it's usually kind of over.

I did have an interesting thing happen tho on the first AA we ran post-patch and we were getting used to the "get in the glowy thing" on the first boss. I had forgot to unslot my ward and using that I managed to survive when everyone but me, the tank and one more DPS died and we had the boss at like 15% and just kept warding and dpsing slowly.. actually was gonna kill it but we decided to wipe at 1% to get more practice

Oh well, not really practical, but a funny story on that theme. Generally I know of no dps that slots survivability skills in trials, we all need them slots for DPS.

Stuff happens. We had a patch 1.6 HR run where everybody at left side, 2nd boss just died except the tank. He (slooooooowly) soloed the whole room (boss included)... could not believe it but it was there, under my eyes.

Anyway, during new encounters, it happens fairly often to me to be the 1 guy alive with the tank. I keep healing him (before 1.6), with my Healing Springs and ressed everybody else. I just have a penchant for avoiding getting dead.
I loved the verstatility and utility of the class, to me it made up for the poor DPS.

Now, if I have to play a "pro DPS" build with zero utility, at a minimum I'd like to do suitable damage.

Anyway I am going to spend another 2-300k and regear to your build and see if it suits me better.
The pet build I have now, looked boring (yay 3 buttons class), pet keeps doing all sorts of weird stuff and, most of all, it dies. Dies. Dies more. My other guildie actually heals his pet, but then what's the point at having a DPS pet if you don't DPS to keep it alive?

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

I'm sure many Sorcerers have been the last man standing during a wipe, saved a team mate with CC when they became careless, or infinitely healing springed their team through a boss's AOE when the templar just couldn't cut it.

Yeah, I have always loved that. In WOW my druid was always the last man standing (and as the only class with combat ress, I felt able to change the battle outcomes).

Before patch 1.6 I'd have a NICE build able to single target, AoE, HEAL and also be the other trial survivor along with the tank.

Now all of this is over.

Well in all honesty, if 10 people are dead in a trial it's usually kind of over.

I did have an interesting thing happen tho on the first AA we ran post-patch and we were getting used to the "get in the glowy thing" on the first boss. I had forgot to unslot my ward and using that I managed to survive when everyone but me, the tank and one more DPS died and we had the boss at like 15% and just kept warding and dpsing slowly.. actually was gonna kill it but we decided to wipe at 1% to get more practice

Oh well, not really practical, but a funny story on that theme. Generally I know of no dps that slots survivability skills in trials, we all need them slots for DPS.

Stuff happens. We had a patch 1.6 HR run where everybody at left side, 2nd boss just died except the tank. He (slooooooowly) soloed the whole room (boss included)... could not believe it but it was there, under my eyes.

Anyway, during new encounters, it happens fairly often to me to be the 1 guy alive with the tank. I keep healing him (before 1.6), with my Healing Springs and ressed everybody else. I just have a penchant for avoiding getting dead.
I loved the verstatility and utility of the class, to me it made up for the poor DPS.

Now, if I have to play a "pro DPS" build with zero utility, at a minimum I'd like to do suitable damage.

Anyway I am going to spend another 2-300k and regear to your build and see if it suits me better.
The pet build I have now, looked boring (yay 3 buttons class), pet keeps doing all sorts of weird stuff and, most of all, it dies. Dies. Dies more. My other guildie actually heals his pet, but then what's the point at having a DPS pet if you don't DPS to keep it alive?

Ah, well you just explained my reasoning behind creating my own build instead of going for a Pet build. To me, the lack of versatility of the Pet build is just not worth it. With mine I can still be flexible on a few slots and if I wanted to go on a PUG ride I'd use a slot for Ward just in case, for example. I dunno, I know Thelon has a Pet build as well and I know he's a good player - dunno if he's doing something different for it to get it to work.

I can also give a tip, if you want to just try it out you could get VR12 martial pieces for as little as 2-3K each, and VR6 cyro light rings are cheap as well (30K AP). If you wanted to give it a try before a spending spree which I can totally understand. I have all the stuff since it's the same gear almost every of my characters use for magicka DPS and even healing.

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

Ah, well you just explained my reasoning behind creating my own build instead of going for a Pet build. To me, the lack of versatility of the Pet build is just not worth it. With mine I can still be flexible on a few slots and if I wanted to go on a PUG ride I'd use a slot for Ward just in case, for example. I dunno, I know Thelon has a Pet build as well and I know he's a good player - dunno if he's doing something different for it to get it to work.

I can also give a tip, if you want to just try it out you could get VR12 martial pieces for as little as 2-3K each, and VR6 cyro light rings are cheap as well (30K AP). If you wanted to give it a try before a spending spree which I can totally understand. I have all the stuff since it's the same gear almost every of my characters use for magicka DPS and even healing.

Totally agree on the pet thing. I stopped using pets once I got to VR12 (May 2014 or so) so I had only vague reminescences about how dastardly and buggy they could be. I tried using both matriarch morphs when I started running trials but it invariably died about 5 seconds after being summoned.
Now I have to say it IS visibly improved... however it still dies 4-5 times exactly in the encounters where my group could use all the DPS I could get. Plus I like playing with as many hotkeys as possible (I have played a MMO, Istaria, where each class could have 60+ abilities!!!), toggles are not fun. Toggles = no flexibility imo.

As for the Martial Set pieces... they are fairly hard to get, since patch 1.6 I only found two. I have everything else, Adroitness, purple Light Cyro rings, gold Turogs.
Maybe I could start by making a Magnus 4 pieces set and wait until the Martial pieces start being a bit more abundant. I think I am going to lose about 160-170 spellpower by doing that, while gaining mana (and regen). Should not be a game breaker tbh.

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Ah, well you just explained my reasoning behind creating my own build instead of going for a Pet build. To me, the lack of versatility of the Pet build is just not worth it. With mine I can still be flexible on a few slots and if I wanted to go on a PUG ride I'd use a slot for Ward just in case, for example. I dunno, I know Thelon has a Pet build as well and I know he's a good player - dunno if he's doing something different for it to get it to work.

I can also give a tip, if you want to just try it out you could get VR12 martial pieces for as little as 2-3K each, and VR6 cyro light rings are cheap as well (30K AP). If you wanted to give it a try before a spending spree which I can totally understand. I have all the stuff since it's the same gear almost every of my characters use for magicka DPS and even healing.

Totally agree on the pet thing. I stopped using pets once I got to VR12 (May 2014 or so) so I had only vague reminescences about how dastardly and buggy they could be. I tried using both matriarch morphs when I started running trials but it invariably died about 5 seconds after being summoned.
Now I have to say it IS visibly improved... however it still dies 4-5 times exactly in the encounters where my group could use all the DPS I could get. Plus I like playing with as many hotkeys as possible (I have played a MMO, Istaria, where each class could have 60+ abilities!!!), toggles are not fun. Toggles = no flexibility imo.

As for the Martial Set pieces... they are fairly hard to get, since patch 1.6 I only found two. I have everything else, Adroitness, purple Light Cyro rings, gold Turogs.
Maybe I could start by making a Magnus 4 pieces set and wait until the Martial pieces start being a bit more abundant. I think I am going to lose about 160-170 spellpower by doing that, while gaining mana (and regen). Should not be a game breaker tbh.

Yeah, I recommended Magnus as the option if you don't have MK, the stacking spell power is kind of a big deal for the build but I'm guessing it should be OK. But you having trouble finding even V12 Martial? Because I just bought some a few days ago, checked some traders in Rawl'Kha and they had loads of them cheap.

I am already dreading getting 3 more setups of V14 MK though.. lol, I just hate transferring gear between characters.

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

Yeah, I recommended Magnus as the option if you don't have MK, the stacking spell power is kind of a big deal for the build but I'm guessing it should be OK. But you having trouble finding even V12 Martial? Because I just bought some a few days ago, checked some traders in Rawl'Kha and they had loads of them cheap.

I am already dreading getting 3 more setups of V14 MK though.. lol, I just hate transferring gear between characters.

MK gear used to be "decon or dump" material, people had some stashes of it on their bank mules (at least, so a guy yesterday told me he did). Then 1.6 came and now "all the cool guys and the internet celebrities use it for their OP builds" so the stock got quickly bought up and now is harder to get.

Anyway I can't wait to get back home and make it. Then I might even go to the training dummy Sanctum spawn and try it out

olsborg

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

This is all well and good for the stamina sorc, but what about all the toggle abilities we have? we practicly have to limit ourselves to a very few abilities we can cast regularly if we for instance want to use 2 pets and or bound armor and or mage light with these builds.

olsborg

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

wrecking blow stam builds should be doing at least 10-20% better dps than a magicka sorc, simply because of the ranged vs melee risks vs reward.

its safer to ranged attack but weaker, and dangerous to melee but stronger.


since we dont really have a burst vs dot system, and stack both, this basically needs to be the line differance.

crystal blast as stam makes almost no sense...

In pvp this idea would break the game, because the range vs melee is practicly no diffrence because of all the gap closers.

Merlin13KAGL

CP5 wrote: »

Second, I would like to point back out (as others have already stated this) what sorcerer's are in the world of the elder scrolls. Sorcerers are magicka batteries, with their original design being that they didn't regen magicka but instead absorbed it from their enemies attacks. To do this they would build up a large amount of stamina to survive the attacks, and use heavy or medium armor to buy them enough time to get into melee range to use powerful on touch spells, and they would compliment their abilities with enchanted armor, conjured allies and defensive magic (not using a shield). So while some see sorcerer's as mages, that is a completely different elder scrolls class, sorcerers from this series use any weapon, wear heavier armors than just cloth, and are more than just squishy casters.

@CP5 , it's not that some see Sorc's as Mages, it's that anyone that wanted to play a Mage had Sorcerer as their only (closest) option.

Many of the other things you mention (absorb, for instance) were based on birthsigns, etc, which obviously translate (differently) to mundus stone effects here.

What you fail to recall is the standalones gave you endless build possibilities. In ESO, you can to choose the one that was closest to what you were going for and then try to adjust to make it work.

Casters should be casters. Weapon/Stamina builds should be Weapon/Stamina builds. Both should be accessible and viable.

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Ah, well you just explained my reasoning behind creating my own build instead of going for a Pet build. To me, the lack of versatility of the Pet build is just not worth it. With mine I can still be flexible on a few slots and if I wanted to go on a PUG ride I'd use a slot for Ward just in case, for example. I dunno, I know Thelon has a Pet build as well and I know he's a good player - dunno if he's doing something different for it to get it to work.

I can also give a tip, if you want to just try it out you could get VR12 martial pieces for as little as 2-3K each, and VR6 cyro light rings are cheap as well (30K AP). If you wanted to give it a try before a spending spree which I can totally understand. I have all the stuff since it's the same gear almost every of my characters use for magicka DPS and even healing.

Totally agree on the pet thing. I stopped using pets once I got to VR12 (May 2014 or so) so I had only vague reminescences about how dastardly and buggy they could be. I tried using both matriarch morphs when I started running trials but it invariably died about 5 seconds after being summoned.
Now I have to say it IS visibly improved... however it still dies 4-5 times exactly in the encounters where my group could use all the DPS I could get. Plus I like playing with as many hotkeys as possible (I have played a MMO, Istaria, where each class could have 60+ abilities!!!), toggles are not fun. Toggles = no flexibility imo.

As for the Martial Set pieces... they are fairly hard to get, since patch 1.6 I only found two. I have everything else, Adroitness, purple Light Cyro rings, gold Turogs.
Maybe I could start by making a Magnus 4 pieces set and wait until the Martial pieces start being a bit more abundant. I think I am going to lose about 160-170 spellpower by doing that, while gaining mana (and regen). Should not be a game breaker tbh.

@Vahrokh , go to Spellscar and grind a bit. Martial drops like candy from a busted pinata on Cinco de Mayo.

Whack a few atronachs and Martial will literally start pouring out. (they may only be V11 or V12 though, but not a phenomenal difference in values in the meantime.)

Having to completely regear sucks, but that should help.

I'm with @pppontus , I'm still trying various combinations for various situations, though gear wise, it's pretty close.
I did occasionally use familiars post Vet for certain circumstances, as they did have certain useful features for situational battles. (Engine Guardian, for instance...guaranteed to always be on his tail forever chipping away)

Single target feels pretty good, but AoE still feels a bit less effective. Also, I'm having (commitment) issues between being able to self (health) sustain and placing my well being in the hands of a healer, just as the healers are still having reservation placing their well being in the hands of DPS...

Just a lot of what if / WTH factors still present at the moment.

Reykice

Spangla wrote: »

Unfortunately - Magica NB has been killed, Magica nb will now never be as good as mgaica sorc, not even close.

Why do sorcs need a competitive stamina build? They are running around one shotting people in pvp! Please ZOS STOP LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE! Threads like this are the reason you released this fail patch in the first place

So... magicka NB was nerfed and Sorcs magicka builds are fine.... this is the reason you think Sorc STAMINA builds should not be change?

I must ask, are you like... sane?

Erock25

Reykice wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Unfortunately - Magica NB has been killed, Magica nb will now never be as good as mgaica sorc, not even close.

Why do sorcs need a competitive stamina build? They are running around one shotting people in pvp! Please ZOS STOP LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE! Threads like this are the reason you released this fail patch in the first place

So... magicka NB was nerfed and Sorcs magicka builds are fine.... this is the reason you think Sorc STAMINA builds should not be change?

I must ask, are you like... sane?

I personally don't trust anything NBs say. Remember how they were very poor magicka PVE DPS for the first 3-4 months of the game, apparently? Not much was changed with their skills and all a sudden everyone found out they were in fact the number 2 ranked DPS.

Reykice

Erock25 wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Unfortunately - Magica NB has been killed, Magica nb will now never be as good as mgaica sorc, not even close.

Why do sorcs need a competitive stamina build? They are running around one shotting people in pvp! Please ZOS STOP LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE! Threads like this are the reason you released this fail patch in the first place

So... magicka NB was nerfed and Sorcs magicka builds are fine.... this is the reason you think Sorc STAMINA builds should not be change?

I must ask, are you like... sane?

I personally don't trust anything NBs say. Remember how they were very poor magicka PVE DPS for the first 3-4 months of the game, apparently? Not much was changed with their skills and all a sudden everyone found out they were in fact the number 2 ranked DPS.

Yea i remember that lol but they did get some buffs then anyway what he said makes no sense.

As for stamina sorcs, its the only class with not enough morphs for stamina and ZOS did say any class can be a stamina user... too late to change it now.

Tho one of the biggest problems for stamina is Surge triggering off the Lightning Form small aoe and then the CD preventing it from triggering off the bigger crits. Basically no synergy, one defensive skill is ruining the other one.... this has to be a priority. Also fix the Crushing shock being taken into account as 3 spells by Surge and again healing a lot less.... i reported both on the PTS... but apparently only DK`s reflect got fixed so it knows Crushing Shock is 1 spell, Sorcs got to wait for it again

If a Templar can solo anomalies in Craglorn via Puncturing Strikes, i think it would not break anything is we allow the Sorc Surge to work properly. Just limit its AOE cap so Sorcs can`t aoe anomalies like Templars...

NordJitsu

Reykice wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

Why the hell would you give a "MAGIC" based class the ability to use stamina for their skills? I think you are completely "Oblivious" to the point of being a sorcerer..... People choose a sorcerer, because they want to use "MAGIC".....

If you think the sorces lack of ability to choose stamina builds is the issue you're missing the point entirely. If the games Devs are as Oblivious as you as to the actual problems with the classes, and the the game in general, I am un- installing it right now. Because this game is doomed to fail.

"The point people are trying to make is that they "SHOULDN'T have to" in order to be competitive." Among other things.

The dual wield reaver build(melee) was very popular and still is tho many use a 2h now. Just because you see a class in a way it does not mean that it should be like that.

Why would you rage quit if they are giving the stamina players who use a sorcerer buffs? Why all this turning on each other?

Forgive me for speaking for him, but I think the rage quit would have more to do with the incompetence the mice would show than the move itself. For example, when they nerfed BE back in July I unsubbed for a while (not just for that reason, but that was part of it.)

It wasn't because BE was integral to my build or that I was really that much weaker. It was because the move told me that ZOS lacked the backbone to stand up to uninformed whiners and explain to them why they were wrong and lacked the clarity to see what the real balance issues were. In other words, it exposed problems in their balance philosophy.

The same is true with the response about buffing Stam Sorcs. Do I care if Stam builds are getting better? Of course not. I may want to use a Stam build at some point, so I like that.

But the fact that they mentioned stamina and NOT magicka tells me they don't understand the issues well. It's another knock against their competence in balancing the game.

Out of the ordinary builds SHOULD be strong. But archetypical builds should NEVER be totally worthless.

That's the bigger problem and that's what they need to focus on fixing first.

Reykice

I think that the posts made by the other sorcs... show that you can get nice dps as a magicka sorc.... within 5%-10% of melee.

I`d say that`s pretty good...

Emma_Overload

Spangla wrote: »

Unfortunately - Magica NB has been killed, Magica nb will now never be as good as mgaica sorc, not even close.

Why do sorcs need a competitive stamina build? They are running around one shotting people in pvp! Please ZOS STOP LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE! Threads like this are the reason you released this fail patch in the first place

EVERY nerf that's been inflicted on PvE Sorcerers since the game launched has been the fault of PvP whiners. Magicka Sorcs are USELESS for PvE, THAT'S WHY we're asking for better Stamina skills, because that's all the PvP griefers have left us!

k2blader

Couldn't care less about PvE, but in PvP I'm not sure the class was "nerfed" but I feel more vulnerable in terms of being squishier and needing to manage magicka, for offensive & defensive abilities, and stamina, for defensive abilities, noticeably more than before.

Snit

I've been using the build @pppontus posted, after seeing it detailed over at TF. I don't have all of the gear (no Valkyn or Mephala hats), but I'm close (I end up with a bit more magicka and a bit less spell power). After playing it in Vet Dungeons, I'm satisfied with the DPS output on stationary bosses. There's room to improve, as well, as the rotation is a bit more complicated and I screw it up fairly often.

The caveat is mobile fights. Liquid Lightning does a ton of damage per cast. Leaving aside crits and procs, my Force Pulse tooltip is 1,801x3, so about 5,400 damage per cast. My Liquid Lightning will do over 15,640 damage per cast, if the critter stands still. Proper use of this skill is fun and statistically rewarding, but its absence is felt on the many fights in vet dungeons where the boss moves around.

Survivability is different -- it's much harder to stay alive. "Cast crit surge, block the key stuff and don't stand in red" no longer suffices for a variety of reasons. Now, I need to mix in proper use of Hardened Ward for some fights. It's still viable; it's just harder.

But overall, it's a workable one-toggle build. Thank goodness. A togglemancer with two actives per bar holds absolutely no interest for me.

Thelon

Togglemancer ftw rawr.

Still, remember we're all still fine tuning our builds. Once some of the best players from all classes have tested and fine-tuned every aspect of their set-ups, then we'll be able to see which classes excel at ranged / melee DPS and which have lagged behind.

I expect Sorcs, both pet and petless, to be competitive for ranged DPS. Time and testing will tell, as always.

Vahrokh

Snit wrote: »

I've been using the build @pppontus posted, after seeing it detailed over at TF. I don't have all of the gear (no Valkyn or Mephala hats), but I'm close (I end up with a bit more magicka and a bit less spell power). After playing it in Vet Dungeons, I'm satisfied with the DPS output on stationary bosses. There's room to improve, as well, as the rotation is a bit more complicated and I screw it up fairly often.

The caveat is mobile fights. Liquid Lightning does a ton of damage per cast. Leaving aside crits and procs, my Force Pulse tooltip is 1,801x3, so about 5,400 damage per cast. My Liquid Lightning will do over 15,640 damage per cast, if the critter stands still. Proper use of this skill is fun and statistically rewarding, but its absence is felt on the many fights in vet dungeons where the boss moves around.

Survivability is different -- it's much harder to stay alive. "Cast crit surge, block the key stuff and don't stand in red" no longer suffices for a variety of reasons. Now, I need to mix in proper use of Hardened Ward for some fights. It's still viable; it's just harder.

But overall, it's a workable one-toggle build. Thank goodness. A togglemancer with two actives per bar holds absolutely no interest for me.

Same experience. But in trials it's worse. AA is quite manageable - after all it's a newbie trial. Liquid ligthing works in there (on trash mobs), however while you will proudly post your "awesome" (we are talking about sorcs here) DPS, you don't notice how with original Elemental Ring you were hugely contributing to your group by hitting every NPC. With nerfed Elemental Ring you still hit a lot of NPCs. With liquid Ligthing you are pushing e-peen numbers but... you are actually hitting 3-4 NPCs at a time. So yeah, you can boast now... yet be quite less useful.

Hel Ra used to be a pushover but now you must do many parts everybody skipped and these parts involve craptons of super-mobile NPCs. Liquid Lightning just does not work there, nor at 2nd boss (he runs all over and only gets 2 ticks tops) nor at last boss & adds (he runs and hops around like a bunny).

Survivability too is an issue. By stacking +damage gear you give up on ALL the former +health gear set bonuses (> 1k each).
Having no "heal in a pinch" ability won't help in Hel Ra either. Plenty of ground stuff running around and hey! you are still a magicka sorc who can't dodge it more than twice in a row. Healers are accustomed at giving less priority to sorcs - they used to be almost self sufficient - and you'll miss it while you see your health dipping lower and lower.

But to be honest, some 4 men are harder to survive than this. Some encounters are just nuts with the amount of "red circles" and other random damage running about.

Finally - and this is not sorc related: the low survivability affecting players now shall become much less of an issue in a year, when many will have CPs to reduce ill effects. But then, how will a new player be able to keep up? He'll die to a sneeze like us today yet nobody shall be able to tell him craft a better set in 5 minutes. He'll be hundreds of hours worth of grinding behind!

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

I've been using the build @pppontus posted, after seeing it detailed over at TF. I don't have all of the gear (no Valkyn or Mephala hats), but I'm close (I end up with a bit more magicka and a bit less spell power). After playing it in Vet Dungeons, I'm satisfied with the DPS output on stationary bosses. There's room to improve, as well, as the rotation is a bit more complicated and I screw it up fairly often.

The caveat is mobile fights. Liquid Lightning does a ton of damage per cast. Leaving aside crits and procs, my Force Pulse tooltip is 1,801x3, so about 5,400 damage per cast. My Liquid Lightning will do over 15,640 damage per cast, if the critter stands still. Proper use of this skill is fun and statistically rewarding, but its absence is felt on the many fights in vet dungeons where the boss moves around.

Survivability is different -- it's much harder to stay alive. "Cast crit surge, block the key stuff and don't stand in red" no longer suffices for a variety of reasons. Now, I need to mix in proper use of Hardened Ward for some fights. It's still viable; it's just harder.

But overall, it's a workable one-toggle build. Thank goodness. A togglemancer with two actives per bar holds absolutely no interest for me.

Same experience. But in trials it's worse. AA is quite manageable - after all it's a newbie trial. Liquid ligthing works in there (on trash mobs), however while you will proudly post your "awesome" (we are talking about sorcs here) DPS, you don't notice how with original Elemental Ring you were hugely contributing to your group by hitting every NPC. With nerfed Elemental Ring you still hit a lot of NPCs. With liquid Ligthing you are pushing e-peen numbers but... you are actually hitting 3-4 NPCs at a time. So yeah, you can boast now... yet be quite less useful.

Hel Ra used to be a pushover but now you must do many parts everybody skipped and these parts involve craptons of super-mobile NPCs. Liquid Lightning just does not work there, nor at 2nd boss (he runs all over and only gets 2 ticks tops) nor at last boss & adds (he runs and hops around like a bunny).

Survivability too is an issue. By stacking +damage gear you give up on ALL the former +health gear set bonuses (> 1k each).
Having no "heal in a pinch" ability won't help in Hel Ra either. Plenty of ground stuff running around and hey! you are still a magicka sorc who can't dodge it more than twice in a row. Healers are accustomed at giving less priority to sorcs - they used to be almost self sufficient - and you'll miss it while you see your health dipping lower and lower.

But to be honest, some 4 men are harder to survive than this. Some encounters are just nuts with the amount of "red circles" and other random damage running about.

Finally - and this is not sorc related: the low survivability affecting players now shall become much less of an issue in a year, when many will have CPs to reduce ill effects. But then, how will a new player be able to keep up? He'll die to a sneeze like us today yet nobody shall be able to tell him craft a better set in 5 minutes. He'll be hundreds of hours worth of grinding behind!

Actually, one of the Sorcs in my guild did #1 DPS in Hel Ra tonight. Above DKs, both Stamina and Magicka, as well. I'll ask him if he has some screenshots. LL works pretty good there too, your tank just got to be aware of it (same as they should be for DK eruption). And LL will hit quite a large number, and proc Skoria, and together with Thundering Presence - you can completely devastate everything in AOE!

The more I play this, the more I'm convinced that it will be up there at the top for sure.

Snit

pppontus wrote: »

Actually, one of the Sorcs in my guild did #1 DPS in Hel Ra tonight. Above DKs, both Stamina and Magicka, as well.

That's awesome. Now, he needs to post it over at TF, so I can shameless cop..., er, learn from his experience.

Please let it not be a three-toggle boringmancer.

Erock25

Snit wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Actually, one of the Sorcs in my guild did #1 DPS in Hel Ra tonight. Above DKs, both Stamina and Magicka, as well.

That's awesome. Now, he needs to post it over at TF, so I can shameless cop..., er, learn from his experience.

Please let it not be a three-toggle boringmancer.

Seconded. If only we had an agree button or something.

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

Actually, one of the Sorcs in my guild did #1 DPS in Hel Ra tonight. Above DKs, both Stamina and Magicka, as well. I'll ask him if he has some screenshots. LL works pretty good there too, your tank just got to be aware of it (same as they should be for DK eruption). And LL will hit quite a large number, and proc Skoria, and together with Thundering Presence - you can completely devastate everything in AOE!

The more I play this, the more I'm convinced that it will be up there at the top for sure.

I suggest you read what I've posted, your reply is not even related to it:

Vahrokh wrote: »

Liquid ligthing works in there (on trash mobs), however while you will proudly post your "awesome" (we are talking about sorcs here) DPS, you don't notice how with original Elemental Ring you were hugely contributing to your group by hitting every NPC. With nerfed Elemental Ring you still hit a lot of NPCs. With liquid Ligthing you are pushing e-peen numbers but... you are actually hitting 3-4 NPCs at a time. So yeah, you can boast now... yet be quite less useful.

It'll take more than words to convince me that a static, tiny circle on the ground hits as many run-around NPCs as Elemental Ring did.