Sorcerers were over nerfed... again

o_0

Vis wrote: »

o_0 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Significantly lowering the cost of bolt escape (or removing its penalty) would take minimal time to implement and would garnish a lot of good will from sorcs while we wait for balance fixes.

We could really use a bone in the near to immediate future. We understand the devs are stressed and tired, but this small change would take a lot of pressure off of them. Thank you for considering it.

I can see this being beneficial for stamina Sorc. As for magicka, i have no complaints with bolt escape, can use it over 20 times before out of magicka.

What I would like to see are options to bring Sorc on par for PvE. Thus ending the "your a sorc? sorry no trial for you, we're looking for 16k+ dps"

You are right, it would not be a huge use for trials. I was thinking more about the pvp issue where gap closer spam and wrecking nuke have hurt both magicka and stamina sorcs significantly. Which is another reason I call it a start and not the final solution.

I agree with that. I'm hoping they tone down wrecking blow soon, my vet2 alt already hits for 5-7k with it. In terms of gap closers, if they chose to keep the cost of bolt escape high, it would be nice if it traveled the same distance as other gap closers to allow for a better chance of escape, but since it can be used to escape without having a target, it does have an advantage over other gap closers, which may be the reason for the distance traveled. Though I would think the very high cost would be the tradeoff.

Vahrokh

I am also peeved at another thing. After months and months I have all sorts of trials gear drops. I have enhanced them, optimized them etc. etc.

Come patch 1.6, the gear dropped as prize for completing trials AND meant to be the best to do more trial instances suddenly became so garbage that there's not a single build ANYWHERE listing a single Aether piece any more.
So much for logic, so much for the efforts, wipes, enchants etc. spent.

On the contrary, I who detest ESO PvE with the fiercest passion, am now meant to waste my time doing PvP to improve PvE performance.

It boggles my mind, I have not seen this done in any online game before ESO... and I play multiplayer games since the '90s.

Irista

Vis wrote: »

o_0 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Significantly lowering the cost of bolt escape (or removing its penalty) would take minimal time to implement and would garnish a lot of good will from sorcs while we wait for balance fixes.

We could really use a bone in the near to immediate future. We understand the devs are stressed and tired, but this small change would take a lot of pressure off of them. Thank you for considering it.

I can see this being beneficial for stamina Sorc. As for magicka, i have no complaints with bolt escape, can use it over 20 times before out of magicka.

What I would like to see are options to bring Sorc on par for PvE. Thus ending the "your a sorc? sorry no trial for you, we're looking for 16k+ dps"

You are right, it would not be a huge use for trials. I was thinking more about the pvp issue where gap closer spam and wrecking nuke have hurt both magicka and stamina sorcs significantly. Which is another reason I call it a start and not the final solution.

Personally I'm a bit worn out on the PvP this, PvP that. A lot of sorc concern is based off of PvE - the lack of keeping a good amount of DPS as magicka spec (and still falling short if we switch to stam spec. Better than magicka, but still behind on other classes so I'm seeing. I'm not a stam sorc.. just not doing it...), falling behind in utility to work well with other classes, and as someone mentioned in a previous post, Negate Magic/Suppression Field is still worthless. At least before it cost a lot sure... but at least it was effective. Now we forgo this ultimate for other ones because it really isn't helpful anymore..

Vahrokh wrote: »

That is, a trial leader who is not an utter idiot, SHALL keep sorcs out as much as possible, they are just a worthless DRAIN on a group success.
If before patch 1.6 sorcs were desired because of easy, quick and effective negate PERIOD, now they come with:

- annoying pets that aggro the boss and start the encounter... because.
- a negate that takes eons to take back up again and is not the negate of old anyway.
- utterly lackluster DPS exactly now that bosses has an health boost.
- lack of synergy with anyone else including between themselves.
- low health => they are the first to die to a sneeze, even sacrificing (even more!) DPS to go all out health build.
- mana regen (what's it now?) and mana costs. Spending longer chugging potions and dark exchanging than any other class.

Result: yesterday the only time we needed a negate was at last boss, once. 1 sorc "required" (best guilds do completely without of course, as posted in score boards since weeks ago) and only to press 1 button, once.

YEAH! That 1 button motivates a guy to grind to VR14 and then CP!

^I agree. I mentioned the pets pulled threat on bosses while this patch was still on PTS and people thought I was joking. I wasn't. They do, and it hacks everyone off in the raid when a boss turns to 1-shot squishies in the face.


I have no issue with bolt escape. Sure it costs a lot of mana if you spam, but if we WANT to talk about PvP I don't run into a group like a headless chicken. I run in a small shock team of guild mates, we coordinate, and I only use bolt escape for a) zipping through the group to disorient (NOT SPAMMING IT... drives me nuts seeing sorcs do this.. you have one button you push.. cool guys... /facepalm). and b) to get the ___ out of dodge. If my GM says for me to run, I high tail it out on command. I don't use bolt escape as an end-all-be-all spell.

I think there are some other sorc skills they could tweak to make us more viable in PvP than bolt escape.. this skill in particular seems to be a constant focus from the community when we could consider fixing Encase to where it worked like talons in a fashion. A few ideas... have encase ensnare for Xseconds but can be broken out of. Or have a synergy effect added .. like if an enemy is currently encased, it would synergize with lightning flood? That way when encase is broken from taking damage, it'll hit like a truck. That would give us a reason to use it perhaps.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head, could be worthless. /shrug

Like I've been saying in many threads about sorcs, I want to see our class skills more useful. Having a MAGE guild skill being better than my class skill? /facepalm Entropy over power surge... and of course Equilibrium over dark exchange (if you trust your healer). Part of me wants to say .. "Rework the mage guild skill tree and give the sorcs those skills since that's all we use anyhow..."

Edit: For those that don't realize this. We lose spell power by picking entropy over power surge because of the passive they changed. Casting power surge takes a ridiculous amount of mana. So we pick.. Lose spell power thus over all DPS.. when really is the cost/benefit ratio worth it to use power surge JUST to have it slotted for spell power when it uses so much magicka to cast, effectively lowering DPS because our mana pool is depleted? And now since we're so squishy and are required to run with 2 pieces of heavy armor we lose some magicka regeneration and cost reduction from spells (on top of the fact our class passive to reduce spell cost is gone). And running 2 sets of heavy doesn't mean we aren't squishy, we have to slot (most of the time) entropy for the passive health bonus.


I do have some screen shots with Bloodspawn tests. I can upload them if people wish to see actual numbers along with a list of my armor, buffs, boons, etc.. whatever ya'll want. I used entropy on the test with Bloodspawn, though have been recently trying out power surge. From what I can tell, my resources are better managed using Structured Entropy in my spell rotation, even though Power Surge gives a huge boost to my spell power (if 400 SP is a 'large' amount..). I find myself having to chug mana pots on CD, and heavy attack to get magicka back with power surge up. So is power surge really worth it....? For sustainability and long fights where there are tons of adds? Doesn't seem so..

And of course, the 2-set pledge stuff is worthless now.. at least I got some free Mastics.. >_>

Reykice

One question tho... when are the planning to do those stamina changes?

Mr.Hmm

I dont understand you people.. I play a sorcerer at lvl 14-15 right now and personally i can kill 10k-15k HP mini bosses really easy with the Overload Ultimate in Storm Call skill line..... hell i might kill them in 4 hits or less depending on if it crits...

Erock25

Reykice wrote: »

One question tho... when are the planning to do those stamina changes?

I'd love an answer to this as well. I understand now a firm date but something like within the next month, 2 months, 6 months sort of time frame. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Mr.Hmm wrote: »

I dont understand you people.. I play a sorcerer at lvl 14-15 right now and personally i can kill 10k-15k HP mini bosses really easy with the Overload Ultimate in Storm Call skill line..... hell i might kill them in 4 hits or less depending on if it crits...

Balance is only really worth talking about when speaking on V14 issues.

Irista wrote: »

Edit: For those that don't realize this. We lose spell power by picking entropy over power surge because of the passive they changed. Casting power surge takes a ridiculous amount of mana. So we pick.. Lose spell power thus over all DPS.. when really is the cost/benefit ratio worth it to use power surge JUST to have it slotted for spell power when it uses so much magicka to cast, effectively lowering DPS because our mana pool is depleted? And now since we're so squishy and are required to run with 2 pieces of heavy armor we lose some magicka regeneration and cost reduction from spells (on top of the fact our class passive to reduce spell cost is gone). And running 2 sets of heavy doesn't mean we aren't squishy, we have to slot (most of the time) entropy for the passive health bonus.


I do have some screen shots with Bloodspawn tests. I can upload them if people wish to see actual numbers along with a list of my armor, buffs, boons, etc.. whatever ya'll want. I used entropy on the test with Bloodspawn, though have been recently trying out power surge. From what I can tell, my resources are better managed using Structured Entropy in my spell rotation, even though Power Surge gives a huge boost to my spell power (if 400 SP is a 'large' amount..). I find myself having to chug mana pots on CD, and heavy attack to get magicka back with power surge up. So is power surge really worth it....? For sustainability and long fights where there are tons of adds? Doesn't seem so..

And of course, the 2-set pledge stuff is worthless now.. at least I got some free Mastics.. >_>

Don't forget to add the Might of the Guild passive to your Entropy/PowerSurge equation. Entropy directly into Liquid Lightning without a medium/light attack in between is a HUGE boost.

SturgeHammer

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

I think Minor Fracture being added to Mages Fury and its Morphs would be great for stamina sorcerers .

Erock25

SturgeHammer wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

I think Minor Fracture being added to Mages Fury and its Morphs would be great for stamina sorcerers .

Without a stamina morph for Mages Fury, I'm not sure why a stam sorc would even be using it.

SturgeHammer

Erock25 wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

I think Minor Fracture being added to Mages Fury and its Morphs would be great for stamina sorcerers .

Without a stamina morph for Mages Fury, I'm not sure why a stam sorc would even be using it.

I use it to prime targets targets before going in with crit rush and wrecking blow to get some additional burst. It may not be a common usage of the ability , but I think it's worth putting out there as a possible avenue to explore.

Tankqull

Erock25 wrote: »

[

Don't forget to add the Might of the Guild passive to your Entropy/PowerSurge equation. Entropy directly into Liquid Lightning without a medium/light attack in between is a HUGE boost.

has this been fixed to not affect only the first tick but the entire duration?

Erock25

Tankqull wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

[

Don't forget to add the Might of the Guild passive to your Entropy/PowerSurge equation. Entropy directly into Liquid Lightning without a medium/light attack in between is a HUGE boost.

has this been fixed to not affect only the first tick but the entire duration?

I honestly don't know. I have been using Power Surge in PVP and the PVE activities I've been doing. When I started up with trials again I was planning on using ENtropy instead but have not yet tested it.

Nightreaver

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Im telling you because you ask for buffs for already op class currently with some specific builds.

Really? In what role do Sorcerers excel in?
Tanking? No, that would be DKs.
Healing? No, that would Temps.
DPS? No, that would be both DKs and Templars.

If Sorcerers who excel in no role are OP then what does that say about the classes that excel in multiple roles?

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

wrecking blow stam builds should be doing at least 10-20% better dps than a magicka sorc, simply because of the ranged vs melee risks vs reward.
its safer to ranged attack but weaker, and dangerous to melee but stronger.

If you're arguing that melee should be compensated for the additional difficulty it faces then I agree. However if encounters are ending with melee still achieving 10-20% greater DPS then clearly the difference in difficulty wasn't that much and melee has been overcompensated.

If you are arguing that melee should receive the bonus due to greater risk then that's fine too. Just as long as those wearing Light armor and/or less health are compensated for the greater risk as well. I would expect someone who has *taken the risk* by forsaking the safety of heavier armor and more health in order to attain greater DPS to actually achieve that greater DPS.

If you are arguing that melee should always do more DPS then Ranged then it is even more clear just how unbalanced the classes are with Sorcerers being the only class with no melee DPS abilities.
So basically you are saying that a class that cannot compete with other classes in Tanking and Healing should also never be expected to compete with them in DPS as well.
So why are there Sorcerers in game again?

Erock25 wrote: »

All of these DPS test videos that you are taking your numbers from are where the player literally stands in one spot and spams their best abilities. Many high end fights in this game, whether they are from trials or vet dungeons, requires you to change targets, move around, not bunch up, or the boss itself moves around and every single time the ranged player will be able to begin their DPS rotations again at a faster rate.

Stationary targets are great for practicing skill rotation and ability comparisons but I agree should not be used to compare classes other than to perhaps establish a baseline. I would also expect melee DPS to exceed Ranged DPS in a stationary target scenario. So that being said if you have some evidence that Sorcerer Magicka builds are able to match the DPS of other classes in typical trials/dungeon encounters then I would really like to see it.

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm also a firm believer that in PVE, magicka Sorcs were totally broken before 1.6. It is disgusting to design a class where the best you can do is keep Power Surge running and spam Crushing Shock. 1.6 has done a wonderful job with magicka Sorc because now instead of being basically ZERO builds that utilize class abilities, we now have two. You have the Pet and non-Pet spec and yes, they do both use Force Pulse as filler, but you gain great benefit from actually using your class abilities on top of it. Playing a non-Pet spec Sorc in group PVE is now actually fun and requires you to manage your timers way better.

I agree that the 1.6 Sorcerer is a much more enjoyable class to play than the 1.5 version but unless those changes are sufficient to earn Sorcerers a spot in groups then what does it matter?

Erock25 wrote: »

In my opinion, you have to look at a huge overhaul like this in a overall viewpoint ... kinda like a toolbox. In 1.5, the magicka group PVE Sorc toolbox was empty besides Surge. In 1.6, the magicka group PVE Sorc toolbox is full to the brim with useful abilities

Well this is one case where size really doesn't matter. I would much rather have a smaller tool box with the right tools than a large one filled with tools unable to accomplish the task. A toolbox filled with many different screwdrivers means nothing to someone looking for a hammer. Surge was a very useful tool, many would say essential in 1.5. Sadly that is no longer the case and has been replaced by yet another non-Sorcerer ability. Or to put it another way, we are still dependent on borrowing tools from someone else's toolbox to accomplish the task because ours aren't sufficient.

Erock25 wrote: »

As long as we have the tools, I think the DPS numbers can be tweaked. I believe if ZOS notices that 66% of all people in trials are standing there spamming Wrecking Blow endlessly, they will change that. I believe if ZOS notices that Sorc continue to do less DPS than other classes, it is as easy as changing Expert Mage to 3% spell power per Sorc skill or scale the pets damage up slightly more or up the damage on Curse or even increase the Thundering Presence damage to a point where Sorc can do a significant amount of bonus damage in melee range. It is all little tweaks that can be easily managed.

Actually it's all about ZOS having any desire to make changes that would allow Sorcerers to match the DPS of other classes and right now, based on their most recent response, it doesn't appear they have that desire.

Erock25 wrote: »

So while the magicka Sorc has a full toolbox, the stamina Sorc has an empty one.

ZOS has stated that they " have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive."
And as far as being competitive don't Sorcerer Stamina builds already out perform Sorcerer Magicka builds? Doesn't making Sorcerer Stamina builds more competitive make Sorcerer Magicka builds less so?
And where is their commitment to make Magicka-based Sorcerer builds more competitive?
And how seriously can you take their request for player suggestions based on their history? How many player suggestions do see implemented? How many changes were made to the class that no one ever asked for or wanted? Much of this thread is in respect to Magicka builds yet their only response is that they want to make STAMINA builds more competitive? Seriously?

Cuyler

The fact that class balance is tied to PvP and PvE alike means we're screwed. Make a change good for PvP it breaks PvE. A good change to PvE means its now OP in PvP. just can't win.

Demira

Nightreaver wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Im telling you because you ask for buffs for already op class currently with some specific builds.

Really? In what role do Sorcerers excel in?
Tanking? No, that would be DKs.
Healing? No, that would Temps.
DPS? No, that would be both DKs and Templars.

If Sorcerers who excel in no role are OP then what does that say about the classes that excel in multiple roles?

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

wrecking blow stam builds should be doing at least 10-20% better dps than a magicka sorc, simply because of the ranged vs melee risks vs reward.
its safer to ranged attack but weaker, and dangerous to melee but stronger.

If you're arguing that melee should be compensated for the additional difficulty it faces then I agree. However if encounters are ending with melee still achieving 10-20% greater DPS then clearly the difference in difficulty wasn't that much and melee has been overcompensated.

If you are arguing that melee should receive the bonus due to greater risk then that's fine too. Just as long as those wearing Light armor and/or less health are compensated for the greater risk as well. I would expect someone who has *taken the risk* by forsaking the safety of heavier armor and more health in order to attain greater DPS to actually achieve that greater DPS.

If you are arguing that melee should always do more DPS then Ranged then it is even more clear just how unbalanced the classes are with Sorcerers being the only class with no melee DPS abilities.
So basically you are saying that a class that cannot compete with other classes in Tanking and Healing should also never be expected to compete with them in DPS as well.
So why are there Sorcerers in game again?

Erock25 wrote: »

All of these DPS test videos that you are taking your numbers from are where the player literally stands in one spot and spams their best abilities. Many high end fights in this game, whether they are from trials or vet dungeons, requires you to change targets, move around, not bunch up, or the boss itself moves around and every single time the ranged player will be able to begin their DPS rotations again at a faster rate.

Stationary targets are great for practicing skill rotation and ability comparisons but I agree should not be used to compare classes other than to perhaps establish a baseline. I would also expect melee DPS to exceed Ranged DPS in a stationary target scenario. So that being said if you have some evidence that Sorcerer Magicka builds are able to match the DPS of other classes in typical trials/dungeon encounters then I would really like to see it.

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm also a firm believer that in PVE, magicka Sorcs were totally broken before 1.6. It is disgusting to design a class where the best you can do is keep Power Surge running and spam Crushing Shock. 1.6 has done a wonderful job with magicka Sorc because now instead of being basically ZERO builds that utilize class abilities, we now have two. You have the Pet and non-Pet spec and yes, they do both use Force Pulse as filler, but you gain great benefit from actually using your class abilities on top of it. Playing a non-Pet spec Sorc in group PVE is now actually fun and requires you to manage your timers way better.

I agree that the 1.6 Sorcerer is a much more enjoyable class to play than the 1.5 version but unless those changes are sufficient to earn Sorcerers a spot in groups then what does it matter?

Erock25 wrote: »

In my opinion, you have to look at a huge overhaul like this in a overall viewpoint ... kinda like a toolbox. In 1.5, the magicka group PVE Sorc toolbox was empty besides Surge. In 1.6, the magicka group PVE Sorc toolbox is full to the brim with useful abilities

Well this is one case where size really doesn't matter. I would much rather have a smaller tool box with the right tools than a large one filled with tools unable to accomplish the task. A toolbox filled with many different screwdrivers means nothing to someone looking for a hammer. Surge was a very useful tool, many would say essential in 1.5. Sadly that is no longer the case and has been replaced by yet another non-Sorcerer ability. Or to put it another way, we are still dependent on borrowing tools from someone else's toolbox to accomplish the task because ours aren't sufficient.

Erock25 wrote: »

As long as we have the tools, I think the DPS numbers can be tweaked. I believe if ZOS notices that 66% of all people in trials are standing there spamming Wrecking Blow endlessly, they will change that. I believe if ZOS notices that Sorc continue to do less DPS than other classes, it is as easy as changing Expert Mage to 3% spell power per Sorc skill or scale the pets damage up slightly more or up the damage on Curse or even increase the Thundering Presence damage to a point where Sorc can do a significant amount of bonus damage in melee range. It is all little tweaks that can be easily managed.

Actually it's all about ZOS having any desire to make changes that would allow Sorcerers to match the DPS of other classes and right now, based on their most recent response, it doesn't appear they have that desire.

Erock25 wrote: »

So while the magicka Sorc has a full toolbox, the stamina Sorc has an empty one.

ZOS has stated that they " have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive."
And as far as being competitive don't Sorcerer Stamina builds already out perform Sorcerer Magicka builds? Doesn't making Sorcerer Stamina builds more competitive make Sorcerer Magicka builds less so?
And where is their commitment to make Magicka-based Sorcerer builds more competitive?
And how seriously can you take their request for player suggestions based on their history? How many player suggestions do see implemented? How many changes were made to the class that no one ever asked for or wanted? Much of this thread is in respect to Magicka builds yet their only response is that they want to make STAMINA builds more competitive? Seriously?

Thank you, Nightreaver!

Erock25

@Nightreaver

Nightreaver wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

All of these DPS test videos that you are taking your numbers from are where the player literally stands in one spot and spams their best abilities. Many high end fights in this game, whether they are from trials or vet dungeons, requires you to change targets, move around, not bunch up, or the boss itself moves around and every single time the ranged player will be able to begin their DPS rotations again at a faster rate.

Stationary targets are great for practicing skill rotation and ability comparisons but I agree should not be used to compare classes other than to perhaps establish a baseline. I would also expect melee DPS to exceed Ranged DPS in a stationary target scenario. So that being said if you have some evidence that Sorcerer Magicka builds are able to match the DPS of other classes in typical trials/dungeon encounters then I would really like to see it.

I have no DPS tests besides my own world PVE DPS tests I did on PTS with all classes, which were way too short in duration to really matter. The tests I do see are Sorc builds posted on Tamriel Foundry that do 13k DPS at range while many stamina DPS videos were posted with all classes falling right around 16k. These tests were done on a minute long fight with a stationary boss that you could be in melee range of no problem. It should be noted that 3 of the 4 classes (all besides templar) used Wrecking Blow spam, which is an ability that I think ZOS will knock down a peg or two in the coming weeks. Are these tests definitive 'best build' numbers? I do not know. Hell, it took NB months to realize that they were better DPS than Sorc when the game launched and I assume there will be another period of time where everyone is learning.

Do you have any proof to the contrary that Sorc are worse DPS than other classes? My trials guild fell apart months ago and I have not seen any real numbers from trials since 1.6.

Nightreaver wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm also a firm believer that in PVE, magicka Sorcs were totally broken before 1.6. It is disgusting to design a class where the best you can do is keep Power Surge running and spam Crushing Shock. 1.6 has done a wonderful job with magicka Sorc because now instead of being basically ZERO builds that utilize class abilities, we now have two. You have the Pet and non-Pet spec and yes, they do both use Force Pulse as filler, but you gain great benefit from actually using your class abilities on top of it. Playing a non-Pet spec Sorc in group PVE is now actually fun and requires you to manage your timers way better.

I agree that the 1.6 Sorcerer is a much more enjoyable class to play than the 1.5 version but unless those changes are sufficient to earn Sorcerers a spot in groups then what does it matter?

Erock25 wrote: »

In my opinion, you have to look at a huge overhaul like this in a overall viewpoint ... kinda like a toolbox. In 1.5, the magicka group PVE Sorc toolbox was empty besides Surge. In 1.6, the magicka group PVE Sorc toolbox is full to the brim with useful abilities

Well this is one case where size really doesn't matter. I would much rather have a smaller tool box with the right tools than a large one filled with tools unable to accomplish the task. A toolbox filled with many different screwdrivers means nothing to someone looking for a hammer. Surge was a very useful tool, many would say essential in 1.5. Sadly that is no longer the case and has been replaced by yet another non-Sorcerer ability. Or to put it another way, we are still dependent on borrowing tools from someone else's toolbox to accomplish the task because ours aren't sufficient.

You say you are having more fun in 1.6 (presumably because you are using more varied class skills instead of Crushing Shock spam), and then say the size of the toolbox doesn't matter. That is a direct contradiction to me, considering the fact that the size of the toolbox (Curse, Liquid Lightning, Frags, even Thundering Presence for DPS) I would assume is the reason you are having more fun.

Nightreaver wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

As long as we have the tools, I think the DPS numbers can be tweaked. I believe if ZOS notices that 66% of all people in trials are standing there spamming Wrecking Blow endlessly, they will change that. I believe if ZOS notices that Sorc continue to do less DPS than other classes, it is as easy as changing Expert Mage to 3% spell power per Sorc skill or scale the pets damage up slightly more or up the damage on Curse or even increase the Thundering Presence damage to a point where Sorc can do a significant amount of bonus damage in melee range. It is all little tweaks that can be easily managed.

Actually it's all about ZOS having any desire to make changes that would allow Sorcerers to match the DPS of other classes and right now, based on their most recent response, it doesn't appear they have that desire.

I know they may have a bad track record, but I think this 1.6 overhaul homogenized a lot of the buffs and systems that various classes use to reach their DPS potential and that will lead to a better balancing act by ZOS. Your response here also seems to indicate that you are sure that Sorc is less DPS than other classes in trial situations and I'd love if you or some other guild (WHERE YOU AT HODOR?? @Alcast ) to come along and let us know their real in game 1.6 experience in trials.

Nightreaver wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

So while the magicka Sorc has a full toolbox, the stamina Sorc has an empty one.

ZOS has stated that they " have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive."
And as far as being competitive don't Sorcerer Stamina builds already out perform Sorcerer Magicka builds? Doesn't making Sorcerer Stamina builds more competitive make Sorcerer Magicka builds less so?
And where is their commitment to make Magicka-based Sorcerer builds more competitive?
And how seriously can you take their request for player suggestions based on their history? How many player suggestions do see implemented? How many changes were made to the class that no one ever asked for or wanted? Much of this thread is in respect to Magicka builds yet their only response is that they want to make STAMINA builds more competitive? Seriously?

Don't get caught up on their wording and the use of the word competitive. What I hope they really mean is that they see stamina Sorc got jack squat and they'll give us some tools to work with. Can you actually say that you think it is fair that Sorc received so few stamina options? Can you actually say that ZOS realizing this and working on it is some great injustice to magicka Sorc? I don't really understand the Sorc outrage directed at magicka builds which came from the PTS forums. It seems like people couldn't get past the nerf to Surge heals, which was absolutely necessary for the new system with no aoe target limit. Do I think magicka Sorcs are perfect? No, as I said before, they should add buffs to both morphs of Surge that make them worth using over Rally and Entropy and I think we could really use a change to Thundering Presence or Daedric Mines that give magicka Sorc a way to boost up their DPS during the times when they can comfortably get in melee range. Currently, I believe it to be 100% true that Sorc have the best ranged DPS (magicka or stamina) and my experience in trials and vet dungeons tells me that is a great benefit to a team.

Tonturri

The following are just ideas - concepts. I've tried to avoid putting any solid percentages or numbers there.

DPS - Turn Daedric curse into a DoT. Up the damage, remove the AoE. Give us more sustain! For Stamina builds, you could do something similar to heaing - Each attack deals 5% of damage as shock damage or something. Same for a magicka morph. Or it gives all spells a chance to be cast twice? I do dislike depending on RNG *coughwheeeeeezeFragments...* It's a possibility.

Heal - Remove the kinda sorta more or less useless portion of the Surge morphs. As a caster, I don't need nor want that extra weapon damage, and I doubt a melee wants that spell damage. Allow it to be morphed to...say, increase healing by X amount, or all heals cast while the ability is active do a chain heal type thing. For example, casting healing ward will put X% of that ward on another target. Healing someone with Combat Prayer does its normal thing, than heals a nearby player for X% of that heal.

Tanking - Turn the morph of our AoE lightning splash thingy that increases the radius into a tank morph. Something along the lines of, anything that is standing in the pool that hits you while you have lightning form up gives X effect. A small stun (.25 seconds)? Pretty please with a cherry on top remove the cast time from the Clannfear, shave a couple thousand off its cost (it cost almost 6000 to cast while in full light armor - I'm getting 1400 back whe nthe thing dies), reduce the heal.

Change a morph of Overpower to be a tanking ultimate (the one that regens magicka, preferably. I think the other one gives range and a bigger damage buff as it levels, whereas that morph doesn't? Could be wrong). When activated, increase armor by somesuch amount (10k? ). Restore a resource when struck, apply a damage debuff when struck. Gain a damage shield when struck proportionate to how much damage you just took. Keep track of damage taken while the ultimate is up, gain it as a heal/damage shield when switching back. Gives increased block mitigation when toggled on?

Empowered ward - give me something other than increased by 30% on self morph, honestly that one feels....half-assed. Could make it the same concept as my ideas for surge. When the shield expires, heal a small amount (or heal in an AoE!) and a percentage of the shield ends up on someone else.
______________________
Please do something with Dark Deal - make it an over time effect instead of channeled..ooor give up all stamina regen, double it and turn it into magicka regen for X amount of time (or don't double it, just convert!). Thje other morph would be the same, but convert magicka regen into stamina. As is, it's just not worth casting.


Edit - it occurred to me that some could interpret this incorrectly...Everything is a separate possibility. I am not suggesting our overpower ultimate heal, give a damage shield, debuff and restore resources at the same time It -could- heal, or this, or that. And so on.

Erock25

Tonturri wrote: »

Empowered ward - give me something other than increased by 30% on self morph, honestly that one feels....half-assed.

I'd run before pvp'rs read this.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Umm no we are as powerful as ever.

Vahrokh

Erock25 wrote: »

Your response here also seems to indicate that you are sure that Sorc is less DPS than other classes in trial situations and I'd love if you or some other guild (WHERE YOU AT HODOR?? @Alcast ) to come along and let us know their real in game 1.6 experience in trials.

I don't really agree with this point.
MMOs are by definition massive, they cater to many.
Game balance has to be made on a Gaussian distribution of player skills, gear and guild, not on the top of the top of the top. Otherwise we fall into the "Mount Everest skill cap fallacy" that also affected other MMOs: that is having a class that potentially may be as strong if not even stronger than others, but only 0.1% of the playerbase ever manage to see that done.
At the same time, other classes (usually "warrior template") are universally made easy to learn and pretty effective for the masses.
Now, if ESO had been ToA, where they explicitly tell you that a certain race is meant to be very powerful but close to impossible to play, then people would actively choose to submit themselves to the ordaly.
But no, ESO does not show that.

I happen to know an Hodor player (one of their best ones) because he is in my guild too.
I would NEVER use him as a "meter". He spends endless hours perfecting the tiniest details, he alone can outplay 4-5 fairly competent other players and so on and on.
You can bet he could be that one 15k DPS sorc in the whole world, posting non Photoshopped or tricked screenshots of his deeds.

Is it OK to accept his 15k as "the fair value to which measure any average Joe"?
I don't think so.

You don't usually consider realistic that 4 liters per 100km fuel consumption they advertise for your car, do you? And then you find out it's measured with zero air, satin paved road, $1000 a piece tires, computer assisted acceleration and so on and on. In "real life" the same car easily consumes 5-6 liters per 100km.

Same for MMOs. You just can't set as "benchmark" the top world guild with flawless players who already heavily outgear all content and have everything on heavy farm status (including where they measure the performance). Otherwise you totally screw up game balance for the remaining 99.9% of the playerbase, who shall NEVER enjoy the same situation.

Erock25

Vahrokh wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Your response here also seems to indicate that you are sure that Sorc is less DPS than other classes in trial situations and I'd love if you or some other guild (WHERE YOU AT HODOR?? @Alcast ) to come along and let us know their real in game 1.6 experience in trials.

I don't really agree with this point.
MMOs are by definition massive, they cater to many.
Game balance has to be made on a Gaussian distribution of player skills, gear and guild, not on the top of the top of the top. Otherwise we fall into the "Mount Everest skill cap fallacy" that also affected other MMOs: that is having a class that potentially may be as strong if not even stronger than others, but only 0.1% of the playerbase ever manage to see that done.
At the same time, other classes (usually "warrior template") are universally made easy to learn and pretty effective for the masses.
Now, if ESO had been ToA, where they explicitly tell you that a certain race is meant to be very powerful but close to impossible to play, then people would actively choose to submit themselves to the ordaly.
But no, ESO does not show that.

I happen to know an Hodor player (one of their best ones) because he is in my guild too.
I would NEVER use him as a "meter". He spends endless hours perfecting the tiniest details, he alone can outplay 4-5 fairly competent other players and so on and on.
You can bet he could be that one 15k DPS sorc in the whole world, posting non Photoshopped or tricked screenshots of his deeds.

Is it OK to accept his 15k as "the fair value to which measure any average Joe"?
I don't think so.

You don't usually consider realistic that 4 liters per 100km fuel consumption they advertise for your car, do you? And then you find out it's measured with zero air, satin paved road, $1000 a piece tires, computer assisted acceleration and so on and on. In "real life" the same car easily consumes 5-6 liters per 100km.

Same for MMOs. You just can't set as "benchmark" the top world guild with flawless players who already heavily outgear all content and have everything on heavy farm status (including where they measure the performance). Otherwise you totally screw up game balance for the remaining 99.9% of the playerbase, who shall NEVER enjoy the same situation.

I think you severely overestimate the skill cap in this game. It has 12 buttons and very long internal global cooldowns on ability activation. Also, I'm sure if someone from Hodor posted their 18k DPS parse or whatever the Sorc community would be up in arms about how unfair it is. DPS benchmarks are always measured from the top players.

Nihil

My wish list when i play a stamina sorc.
One of lightning forms morphs be derived from stamina.
Crit surge being more usefull (i will pick power surge over it, if I even use surge), a minor enduramce buff would be nice.
Dark deal being more useful in melee range (Is slightly useful for keep defense with bow but other then that haven't found all to much use out of it yet).
I would like to see another skill for stamina sorcs too, but I don't want it to be just another crystal fragment. Stamina already has a strong single target move in wrecking blow, I would like to see more synergy then just getting another heavy hitter skill to put in there.

But with this I wouldn't want to see key skills taken away from magicka sorcs, and this is why I am weary about giving to many suggestions to alter our skills. It is a fine balancing act between giving stamina sorcs something that would aid them (and keep them unique from the other classes) and not weakening magicka sorcs at the same time.

Some skills we might view as useless right now, might in later patches become relevant. The usefulness of a class is highly dependent on the synergy that it has with end game content. Throw in mechanics that require single target long CC's and you just added a use for agony and rune cage. Throw in a reason to not get close to melee trash mobs and encase just got stronger, for pve balance is all based on the end game encounter, what might be FoTM for one dungeon/trial could be complete trash in another.

So for balancing magicka sorcs, I say give us dungeons that need range and melee both in them. Make us bring both types of fighters and we might see more balance.

Vahrokh

Here's what the theorycrafting sorcs (not random trolls) on Tamriel Foundry think about how we have been handled by ZoS at 1.6.X.

MAOofDC

I'm all for people playing their classes the way they want to, I happen to want to play a Magicka based Sorcerer in end game PvE content. You want to to play a stamina based Sorcerer that's cool. It's counter intuitive in my mind but hey play the game the way that you find fun. The issue I'm having, as it stands right now, is I am being pressured to play the game in a way that I don't want to play.

I don't want to use stamina to do my DPS or use a two handed sword skill spam. It's bad enough that I have to use the Destro staff for the crushing shock and elemental ring spells. I want to duel wield swords, one with a fire enchant and a frost enchant on the other. But the group needs someone who can stop the enemy healer at range so destro staff and crushing shock it is. Elemental ring is the easiest AoE to use and it has a larger AoE than liquid lightning.

So what I suggest to ZOS is this. Please find a way to make the silly (in my opinion) stamina sorcerer builds viable, but don't do it at the expense of the more traditional Magicka based builds. Forcing me to spend, my gold, to respec my entire build both stats and skills. My time because I'll need to re-craft my armor then go farming dungeons for better gear, assuming I can get a group to do it with in the first place.

Please find a way to make the Magicka based sorcerer more sustainable in PvE either giving use better passives for lower spells costs. Or increase the damage output of the spells. As far a making it more balanced for PvP simply don't allow the augmented abilities affect other players, it's not like you haven't done something like that before with other skills or abilities. For example I have yet to see an NPC roll dodge out of my AoE or break out of a CC. Players in PvP do this all the time.

ZRage

Sorc would be fine but ...

When I see mass of DK's / Templars jumping into 10-20 players and easy tanking / killing for 30 sec it makes me wonder if they are going to balance this or it's suppose to be like that so people playing melee got easy mode and they don't die like flies after making mistake.

Amount of survivability templar and DK got is just out of scale, people literally hold block all the time and stand in all kind of sh*t like its nothing, ok maybe they ocassionally move when they stand in meteor AOE, but not DK since he can just REFLECT the meteor (facepalm) with his scales. It was nerfed to 4 projectiles but how does it change anything since it still shutdown ranged builds because no one will risk being selfowned when DK scales are up.

Such mechanics like reflect is broken and it makes just so much harder to balance the game after you put something that completely brakes gameplay balance into the game.

I wonder how long will it take to actually inspect this mechanic and fix this absurd.

About stamin sorc, I really don't see it unless the math checks out, because most of the passives on sorc are focused more over magicka (spell damage, magick recovery passives etc.).

Even so if you plan on making changes for stamina sorc, it's best if you change those skills which are under used, like rune prison etc. rather than changing those popular morhps into stamina.

franka38rwb17_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

Thanks for the interest Gina - a lot of comfort in that!

A little context (and caveat) on my perspective - I've played a stamina sorcerer since early access, primarily in pvp, but with regular (several times a week) veteran gold key pledges, dabbled rarely in AA and Hel-Ra. This was out of desire to be a TES-lore-friendly battlemage (excited the data mined spellcrafting info), but heavy armor never seems the best option for a stamina sorcerer (discussed below). After a couple of PTS tests, a few hours into 1.6, I respecced Magicka, primarily because I have no interest in grinding an alt through the VR ranks. My magicka specced sorcerer feels very powerful. In some cases, overpowered, but note that I lack the experience there of someone competing for the best trial times.

Critical Surge
Having Magicka supply the utility while stamina supplied the damage was brilliant. But in 1.6 the cost is prohibitive. If you also wish to use bolt escape, lightning form, or any other salient magicka skills (I'm not sure there are any available to a sorcerer), they don't seem to fit for any pvp engagement longer than one rotation.
In addition, the cooldown on the heal means that against multiple enemies the health per second (HPS) is inadequate. Furthermore it leads to very restrictive build choices - rocking a 2 hander? Get rid of the forceful passive, because if that crits it can get you killed by lowering your HPS. Same goes for rending slashes/blood craze, Carve/Brawler, Venom Arrow/Poison Injection, Boundless Storm/Thunderous Presence, Two Handed Axes, numerous weapon enchantments, and I've suspected I'm missing a few as well. Deliberately leaving out passives that had previous been useful did not feel good.

I would suggest that the cooldown be reworked, and I do believe a limiting factor is required since aoe caps were removed : - 6 heals in 0.25 seconds, 4 heals in 0.25 seconds... I don't have access to the data to determine at what point this is balanced with the health gain/damage mitigation available through shield stacking, Rally, Vigor, Dragon's Blood, Puncturing sweep, siphoning strikes/sap essence, or any other self healing options available to those who aren't specced for healing. Maybe you consider it balanced, but I do know, in those first few hours, I felt disgustingly squishy and completely lacking in health sustain.

As the health sustain Critical Surge provides is built off crit chance, and sorcerer spell costs are prohibitive for a PvP engagement lasting longer than one rotation (outside of wearing light armor and champion speccing appropriately), Heavy Armor is not an ideal choice. In addition, since the crit on armor sets was scaled down in 1.6, you're giving up weapon damage, where soft caps do not exist, in an effort to increase a source of sustain that is based on chance, not skill. Using Critical Surge is not a value proposition.

The flavour is nice (forgive the 'u', I'm Australian). Healing based on damage going out rather than pressing another button is great. But with the new buff system, you're better off using Rally. my own limited testing showed that Rally has a lot more grunt to it, plus on call burst healing where desired. It's quantifiable, you know what you get. And in clutch situations knowing what you're going to get is very comforting for learning players, and enables great players to get more out of their set up. Perhaps if Critical Surge gave something more in terms of resource regeneration, or, Savagery or Force or Beserk, it would be more attractive. 6

What to do with the other sorcerer skills for the weapon-based sorcerer?
I couldn't disagree more. I feel that... 'flavour'l is important to TESO, and this would shatter it. Besides, that's what flying blade or in select cases, silver bolts or Deadly Cloak is for. Keep the magicka uses for stamina sorcerers , focused on utility, and stamina for the damage. BUT, at the same time, it is imperative that the utility be balanced, not scale with magicka, and not be prohibitively expensive for those wearing non-light armor. For example, if the streak diminishing returns had applied to distance travelled (at a much lesser percentage than 50%), or increased damage taken for a short time per cast, (think it through casters, if you've streaked till you're out of resources and your shields are down, you're dead anyway), it would have been far more stamina sorcerer friendly - 2 casts of streak then out of magicka is not feasible.

I feel that opportunities exist for change with the following -
1) Dark Deal -a channel is not feasible in melee combat - try something else - instant cast, provides minor brutality or endurance)
2) Rune Prison - I tried this once and god was it awful. An ability that was an 8m attack using your weapons (more damage for DW, Forceful passive applying minor debuff versions for 2h users, increased range for bow users), charged with lightning, that did small damage but applied Defile (or perhaps fracture, force, or savagery, for pve use as well) or Maim, based on morph choices... Now that would be something. Magicka version for sorcerer tanks (maim), stamina for defile (dps, pvp) And very fitting 'Dark Magic' what's more. After writing, I came back and read this one again. I LOVE this idea. It would give sorcerers a reason to be melee-oriented, when currently there is none.
3)Exploitation Minor savagery as well, please.

I'm sure there are more beyond my limited creativity.

In addition, 1.6 saw 2 key sorcerer passives changed - Exploitation and Expert Mage. The latter change (removal of cost reduction) compounded the problems discussed under surge regarding magicka costs. The former eliminated a fantastic way we could potentially 1) make restraining prison relevant for stamina sorcerers (balanced, given it's hefty cost), and 2)gain more critical chance and therefore health sustain.

I really thought this was going to be succinct and not rambling - my apologies. I'm sure I'll have more at a later date, but that's all I can manage right now! Please share thoughts and try to be constructive if criticism is necessary!

EDIT - formatting.

Hypertionb14_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?

basic idea # 1

Make Dark Exchange not keep you from attacking... its costs is high enough that a full channel removes most of the used resource. and in combat the fact you cant do anything during that duration is a major problem.

the fact you are channeling the spell and vulnerable to interrupt, as well as dramatically slowed while effectively losing all of one resource to restore the others is more than enough downside to this spell.. (my stam sorc can only channel Dark Deal once before it reduced his magicka below usability)

basic idea # 2

Replace Daedric Mines... its extremely niche in its use atm. you could probably replace this with something that has a stamina morph and does direct damage. even the videos i have seen of GOOD players who use it, it barely has any affect.

basic idea # 3

change the effective execute range of Mages Fury to 30% or so. its already the weakest execute, why not.. Change Mages Wrath to a stamina ability, and change endless fury to restore magicka if the explosion crits, rather than on kills. (reduce the amount returned if needed)

basic idea # 4

either give both pets a Stamina choice, or let them automatically scale on the higher pool like ultimates. i suggest clanfear and matriarch for stam builds.

and for gods sake, give both pets a 20% damage boost. 30% in the case of familiar.

basic idea # 5

as others have mentioned, a morph of lightning form as stam would be good... probably Boundless storm since the movement speed benefits stam builds more. This move can be a good damage ability for nearby targets.

basic idea # 6

Crystal Blast as stam... it sounds stupid..... but i guess there are worse things since no one ever uses this morph anyways. its good for aoe burning at range... but no one ever uses it.... either this, or crystal frag becoming stam and i know THAT wont happen. even if they were to change this morph to stam i cannot see people using it as stam for DPS tho...

i would prefer them give this morph a straight damage boost, about 25% more base damage.

maybe both... at least the higher damage potential of stam builds would let crystal blast do some real damage... but it would still need a damage boost.

FINALLY basic idea # 7

Fix Negate... its become a joke... does effectively nothing in PVP and is not effective in PvE due to buff system.

Nova reduces ALL damage caused by targets inside and does major damage

Darkness reduces ALL damage players take while standing in it and massively snares mobs inside (morphs are insane)

BOTH HAVE SYNERGIES.

so change it like this...

first increase the cost to 300 ult.

Negate Magic = Stuns Or Silences enemies in the field and gives players inside Major protection. (removes magic effects when cast)

Suppression Field = Afflicts targets inside with Major Maim

Absorption Field = Caster regains 1 Ultimate per Friendly target effected every 2 seconds for duration

this results in Suppression Field being the defensive aspects of Darkness and Nova being combined into one but not having the innate damage aspect of either. this makes it effective in PVP a defense.

and Absorption Field being a more easily recast.

With these changes i would be hard pressed to say if Darkness or Negate is better since they would mostly be equal with unique benefits to each. with similar duration and similar damage reductions. Darkness is cheeper to cost and has snare and synergy, but Negate has greater Group defense potential and stuns mobs inside.

this makes it one of few ults truely worth a high cost and the new ult system prevents it from being too easily spammed.





spit balling here, but these ideas should be considered even if not directly, and are pretty much the sum of the classes weakness.

berlinsquirrelb16_ESO

I really dont know what all of you are doing with your sorcs. ..just use a potion built (like ppontus), put finisher on your 3rd skillbar (overload), keep liquid lightning up all the time, push spell dmg and you should be seeing better numbers. ..pn for questions /details welcome. doing 10-14k on trial bosses atm and my sorc is pure overlord-joy ;D

Cinbri

After playing 1.6 and reading forum threads that "sorcs are nerfed", i start thinking that something really-really wrong with community. Be glad that after ocean of sorc QQ on forum they made them unkillable in pvp. If you nub and wanna rock in pvp just chose sorc and hit like a track (Crystal shards vs 12000 impenetrable in heavy armor and defensive CP hit for 15k damage, with abusing animation canceling you hitted by fury, shards and crash shock at same time=this is balance sorcs are dreamed of i guess). Wanna see nerfed class - peak Templar, whos abilities: 1) not just nerfed but even 2) NINJA-NERFED and in addition to 3) several abilities that currently broken (and yes, RD hitting through Eclipse is only broken thing that helps templars).

Septimus_Magna

Personally I really like the recent sorc changes. Ive finally been able to drop S&B/resto for destro/resto in pvp. But pvp is not the issue for most sorcs out there, high sustained dps in pve is. I mainly do pvp now so I only run 1-2 dungeons each night but I manage to do around 10k dps, depending on the fight even towards 13k on undead. I choose some pvp morphs (lightning splash and crushing shock) so dedicated pve-ers should be able to do 10-15% higher dps.

The way to do high sustained dps is pretty simple actually. Stack spell damage as high as possible, I get over 2500 (major sorcery buff active) with set everyone can get. Use nirnhoned fire destro staff, 3x gold magicka reduction (3*7%=21%) glyphs on jewelry and make sure the healer applies elemental drain and/or siphon spirit. The rotation is simple as well, inner light > power surge > ma > lightning splash > ma > crushing shock > ma > repeat until cystal frags procs > cast lightning splash every 6 seconds > cast power surge every 20 seconds. Drop shooting star when its ready AND make sure the tank keeps the boss on the ground effect, very important for high dps!

I hope this is helpful for my fellow sorcerers because its possible to do good dps, even for casual players.

TehMagnus

Sorcs weren't overnerfed. They are still very strong in PVP when played by SKILLED players and they still suck in PVE, nothing new here .

Edit: That being said, leaderboards are not just about time and DPS anymore and sorcs can complete any content the game has to offer and are actually more useful in PVE in 1.6 than they where in 1.5.

As long as you can complete everything and that leaderboards aren't majorly influenced by the time it takes you to kill stuff but more by the # of deaths and some other stuff, I don't really see why care if the DPS of the sorc is 2-3k below others