Sorcerers were over nerfed... again

Tankqull

playing a magica sorc is like throwing wet noodles...

goatlyonesub17_ESO

I've noticed for a long time that sorcerers die easier than any other class. I figured it was just that light armor offers little protection, and the spell armor (aegis something, it's a summon spell) did help a little. But only a little. What I started doing to cope with bosses is keep them focused on my summons, which I kept replacing as they died until the boss got so worn down in health that a series of repeated crystal blasts would finish it off before it could turn around and finish me off.

I miscalculated that moment a few times and had to start.. all.. over.

But, yeh, I can see that sorcerers are weak fighters, both offensively and defensively. My pets did the most to defeat Molag Bal. I only showed up to use the big bright knife at the end. That's when I figured out the pet-distraction tactic, which I've been using ever since. If I don't want to die quick, I have to keep running around and calling pets that bite and zap and tail-swish to do the dirty work for me.

goatlyonesub17_ESO

Curses are a skill in summoning like crystal blast in dark magic, with the difference that crystal blast does its damage instantly, whereas daedric curse has a delay. Only a few sorcerer spells are really useful. Crystal blast, yes. Summons, yes... not because they are individually powerful, but because they keep the baddenasties busy and you can summon them over and over again if they die, until, eventually, unless it's a troll that heals quickly, the monster is on his last legs, about to fall over, and then, maybe, the sorcerer will be able to kill it. Without the daedric pets, a stinking frost atronach at the same level as my sorcerer would kill her three times out of four.

profilex511

Teargrants wrote: »

I believe the statement on ESO Live was to the effect of players who are less skilled always feel that their class is weak compared to other classes. So there you have it, according to ZOS we're just bad players.

Well ESO Should be focusing on Their not so Mega server and jacked up Coding instead of telling people their bad players.
Get your house in order ESO.......

Reykice

They need to understand they should balance mitigation with damage, the less armor you have the more damage you should do....

MADshadowman

Reykice wrote: »

They need to understand they should balance mitigation with damage, the less armor you have the more damage you should do....

They need to understand that balancing is not nerfing one thing til it becomes useless and buffing another thing til it's ridiculously OP. Before 1.6 light armor was awesome and medium and heavy were sub par/useless, now they nerfed light armor and buffed the other 2 and we're back at the same situation. why is it so hard to give all armor types/weapon types/class skills an equal strength and usefulness?

riverdragon72

1.6 is [snip]

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Digiman

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Did you guys even pvp'ed in last 2 days? You are such an op [snip] with all those burst and shields when you stack magicka. Overload lights alone hit around 12k, Frags 9k lol. What are you taking about?
L2P, git gut and stop crying.

The tool tip doesn't specify the 0.25 sec CD on healing in live so you would have many asking if there was a particular bug with the ability.

It isn't that hard to make the healing component work with a single target direct damage condition either.

I am just sick and tired of the combat team just back handing us when they are forced to do balancing mechanics. Especially when there are those who spent large hours play testing this on the PTS giving feedback.

Because of this I wash my hands from any future PTS testing, not worth my time if we get these obviously broken decisions

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on BASHING AND SLANDEROUS COMMENTS]

f047ys3v3n

I'll admit to not having spent that much time on it but my initial testing on ranged magica builds with my 3 main tunes indicated the scaling below. Please note: The abilities used in the weave and buffs applied are not that same between 1.5 and 1.6. For instance, all toons now use structured entropy where none did before, the DK switched from crushing shock to flame lash for main weave and added the new +20 spell crit ability as she was ranged and didn't do the flames thing before, NB now always uses mark target, etc. I'm not saying any of this is optimized, it's just not, but it's also not utter noob garbage. I should also note, lest you make fun of the numbers, that all toons were required to be self sustaining in terms of resources. They were geared and their bar was set up accordingly and they were not given potions. When I do DPS testing my goal is not to figure out what my endgame dungeon DPS will be but rather what weaves I should best utilize.

Nb - DPS is ~ 6.8x previous numbers (1.1k -> 7.5k). This was not great so I switched him to stam. With Stam he one button mash gets a scaling of 10x (11k). I'm bummed with this as the NB previously had excellent utility with attacks providing heals to the group but ZOS seems to say melee stam if you want to succeed so here we go I guess. The bow ranged counterpart to this switch was disappointing. Bow weaves lack the DPS you would expect. Seems that apply buffs spam snipe (~6.5k) is the way to go and even at that, the bow dps is lacking. More one button mashing as well, as this intended? Who really knows.

DK - DPS ~ 10x previous numbers ( V1 toon .75k - > 7.5k). I can't say I like the weave as much as the range is somewhat more limited with flame lash but the DPS is good and I got to stick with magica so I still have great flexibility with what abilities I use. DK self heal is good so as long as you don't get one shot you can somewhat tolerate the tissue paper.

Sorc - DPS ~ 4.5x previous numbers (1k -> 4.5k) (I should also note that the sorc was previously the lowest relative to his level) . I don't think this staggering low dps is really that uncommon as destro staff abilities are very poor, the sorc lacks a weavable attack of it's own, and has poor regen relative to the costs of his spells. Honestly, I was surprised how truly lousy this all turned out to be. The V1 DK is now kicking his ass not just relative to level but objectivly in no uncertain terms with the exact same armor sets on (warlock seducer). I have since talked to friends who are more invested in their sorc than I am and have tried some alternatives. They claim good dps on togglemancer builds (pet, pet, buff pet, weak sauce destro skill, shards when procs). These builds are very limited in functionality because of bar space. No AOE, no, group utility, just clunky. Others have also had success with stam builds (and why not, almost every skill is a weapon skill and not a sorc one.) Bottom line, I don't expect much and I'm not putting much effort into further development for a while. Not my problem.

Dekkameron

MADshadowman wrote: »

And again, you have no idea. 2H spam monkeys rip through our shields quite easily. everyone needs to heal, or should at least be able to. But we need a resto staff to do that effectively, which prevents us from using other weapons, this needs to change.

As my main is a magicka nightblade my heart bleeds for you......

You think you got nerfed huh?

Kragorn

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

<an iinsightful and realistic analysis of how 1.6 has seriously damaged the game the MAJORITY play, not the small cliques ZOS listened to>

Sadly it'll fall on deaf ears @byrom101b16_ESO but it's good you posted it.

Leeric

Teargrants wrote: »

I believe the statement on ESO Live was to the effect of players who are less skilled always feel that their class is weak compared to other classes. So there you have it, according to ZOS we're just bad players.

Not surprising ZOS blames the players, that is their go to when they screw up. Just like when a bunch of people had long load times they blamed our computers and connections.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on BASHING AND SLANDEROUS COMMENTS]

Tankqull

Dekkameron wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

And again, you have no idea. 2H spam monkeys rip through our shields quite easily. everyone needs to heal, or should at least be able to. But we need a resto staff to do that effectively, which prevents us from using other weapons, this needs to change.

As my main is a magicka nightblade my heart bleeds for you......

You think you got nerfed huh?

well you atleast got "nerfed" because of demands done by your own class members.
sorcs recieved them just because...
http://imgur.com/ifoh7t9

drschplatt

Has anyone found a viable sorcerer magicka build yet that doesn't involve pets? I went from being able to kill 6 enemies at my level (VR9), to being killed multiple times by 2 VR7 landscape mobs. I experimented around with different builds on my skill bar but couldn't find anything that was DPS centered. I could stay alive sure, if I wanted to screw around with CC or pets, but if the new sorcerer is going to require CC or pets to kill 2 under level landscape mobs then as far as I'm concerned I'm done and I'll stop subbing tomorrow and find a different game to play. The grind to VR9 was annoying enough with the gold and silver quests, I have no interest at all in doing it again on a DK or templar just to be able to play the game.

Flaminir

drschplatt wrote: »

Has anyone found a viable sorcerer magicka build yet that doesn't involve pets? I went from being able to kill 6 enemies at my level (VR9), to being killed multiple times by 2 VR7 landscape mobs. I experimented around with different builds on my skill bar but couldn't find anything that was DPS centered. I could stay alive sure, if I wanted to screw around with CC or pets, but if the new sorcerer is going to require CC or pets to kill 2 under level landscape mobs then as far as I'm concerned I'm done and I'll stop subbing tomorrow and find a different game to play. The grind to VR9 was annoying enough with the gold and silver quests, I have no interest at all in doing it again on a DK or templar just to be able to play the game.

TBH I've found a need for CC...

Been trying liquid lightning as it was meant to be the fix... a powerful DoT that would raise our DPS... but as a lot of people are finding out, its situational at best as its just SO small! Without some CC added in to the mix then practically every mob / boss just moves out of it pretty quick regardless of where you place it (Making me wonder if the other morph may be a better bet!).

Using it combined with encase works ok.... though requires at least a small amount of decent aiming due to the shape of the encase cone... But using it with bolt escape to keep them CC'ed in the lightning was a lot of fun (Not great from a dps perspective though)..

Liquid lightning.... curse... bolt... frags.... curse... bolt..... = Dead mobs

Works ok on the trash, but clearly not for a lot of bosses etc.

Another point... when you get a frag proc now they do insane damage! I'm at about 2.4k spell damage with entropy, and a frag proc is hitting for around 10k each!!! Mobs don't last long when hit with them!

Soris

Tankqull wrote: »

playing a magica sorc is like throwing wet noodles...

Don't you think this is because you hit a dk who had magma armor ulti on? Or bcs of some weird dmg reduction stacking bug?
I ask because these numbers aren't normal.
Your normal damage range is around 5k and 15k skill to skill. Everyone knows that.

I find it funny when even pvp sorcs come to the forums and whine about their class when it's actually top class currently. You guys either suck in pvp or you haven't played pvp yet since the update or you just ignore the facts. I'm not sure which one.

drschplatt

Flaminir wrote: »

drschplatt wrote: »

Has anyone found a viable sorcerer magicka build yet that doesn't involve pets? I went from being able to kill 6 enemies at my level (VR9), to being killed multiple times by 2 VR7 landscape mobs. I experimented around with different builds on my skill bar but couldn't find anything that was DPS centered. I could stay alive sure, if I wanted to screw around with CC or pets, but if the new sorcerer is going to require CC or pets to kill 2 under level landscape mobs then as far as I'm concerned I'm done and I'll stop subbing tomorrow and find a different game to play. The grind to VR9 was annoying enough with the gold and silver quests, I have no interest at all in doing it again on a DK or templar just to be able to play the game.

TBH I've found a need for CC...

Been trying liquid lightning as it was meant to be the fix... a powerful DoT that would raise our DPS... but as a lot of people are finding out, its situational at best as its just SO small! Without some CC added in to the mix then practically every mob / boss just moves out of it pretty quick regardless of where you place it (Making me wonder if the other morph may be a better bet!).

Using it combined with encase works ok.... though requires at least a small amount of decent aiming due to the shape of the encase cone... But using it with bolt escape to keep them CC'ed in the lightning was a lot of fun (Not great from a dps perspective though)..

Liquid lightning.... curse... bolt... frags.... curse... bolt..... = Dead mobs

Works ok on the trash, but clearly not for a lot of bosses etc.

Another point... when you get a frag proc now they do insane damage! I'm at about 2.4k spell damage with entropy, and a frag proc is hitting for around 10k each!!! Mobs don't last long when hit with them!

Thanks for the feedback, I too tried using liquid lightning because it was supposed to be our new DPS and just found it a bit meh for both damage and the fact that it doesn't target anything. I guess we're just back to using class skills rather than destro staff skills for our DPS because it seemed that hitting things with destro staff skills was like using a water gun.

Ladiev

sagitter wrote: »

Are you sure? because i can see in that videos that all class stamina dps builds are about on par with really small differences:
DK: 18,216 dmg
Templar: 16,766 dmg
Sorcerer : 16,191 dmg
Nb : 15,886

Except for the fact that for the sorcerer to keep up, he had to start the fight with 1000 ultimate build up so he could spam Overload and be in execute phase once ultimate was depleted - which to be honest, is not really a fair restriction to place on the sorcerer to be 'on par'

Kova

Ladiev wrote: »

sagitter wrote: »

Are you sure? because i can see in that videos that all class stamina dps builds are about on par with really small differences:
DK: 18,216 dmg
Templar: 16,766 dmg
Sorcerer : 16,191 dmg
Nb : 15,886

Except for the fact that for the sorcerer to keep up, he had to start the fight with 1000 ultimate build up so he could spam Overload and be in execute phase once ultimate was depleted - which to be honest, is not really a fair restriction to place on the sorcerer to be 'on par'

Agreed. A player shouldn't have to ultimate through the game where others are actually getting to use their skills. I've been relying on Overload for Vet Dungeons since the update, because I don't get grouped without it. I actually use it as a single target bar so I don't have to even macro the crushing shock dps bar anymore. Using AOE with light attacks to charge it....switch over IF necessary on bosses.

Also, notice the complete spam of Wrecking blows...So this is it folks? The magicka class: Sorcerer; the class meant to excel in all things twinkly and arcane is now a Jedi. A dark Jedi relying on force lighting and powerful sword based attacks to be on par with the rest of the samurai?

I'd better get a friggen Light Saber, then.

Danisheraser

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Did you guys even pvp'ed in last 2 days? You are such an op shiet with all those burst and shields when you stack magicka. Overload lights alone hit around 12k, Frags 9k lol. What are you taking about?
L2P, git gut and stop crying.

I play a sorcerer, and I have to agree with above.

ZRage

Overload can crit for 100k, it will only mean you can one shot yourself trough DK ref scale much more easier :> I also don't know where from you get this number, probably full LA 30k magicka 1500 spell dmg build or something :>>>

I'm not complaining on sorc, feels much better than my VR14 NB 1.5, though didn't test my new NB in 1.6 yet but sorc just feels that much more versatile.

Reykice

Totally agree... Overload is not usable as you need to have 1000 ultimate and its not so easy to get 1000 ultimate now compared to in the past.

As for the STAMINA dps well.... i think only a minority of players want to play a melee stamina Sorc. Most picked the class as a ranged magicka dps.... you know, SORCERER.

As for Sorc hitting hard in PvP... well PvP is 1% of the game, one map... i wish people would leave it out of the DPS discussion. It has low dps there too, only it matters less as it has high burst. Most people don`t know the difference and come here claiming that OMG SORC IS OP... not true.

darkrozes_rob16_ESO

Soris_ESO

These numbers are with Glass Canon build, meaning 17.5k max hp 29k mana



Meteor was agains a 16k spell res Templar Vampire.


I a gree with OP. Sorcs got nerfed, i can't use pets because they use skill slots, can't even use bound armour for the extra %mana , you can delete that skill in the future Zos, better give us some dancing emote like : ''' Hey come and kill me i'm a sorc'' !

1 Sorc has so many Toggle skills that there if you plan to use em all you get 1 free skill slot on each bar...
2 STAFF is NO LONGER the sorc's main weapon, since there are Other weapons doing more spell dmg than a vr14 crafted yellow staff.
3 Apprentice Mundus stone ISN'T stacking with Weapon Sharpened. I got all kind of wierd fluctuating dmg numbers while testing, but on 14%sharpened staff, the apprentice gives no dmg bonus, but it gives it if i wear other trait weapon.
4 Our skills mean NOTHING, if you're doing 6k Fragment on someone, when that someone blocks he'll get 1/3 of the dmg. Where am i heading with this ? Well, sorc has mana, other guy has stamina, he can block all the atacks he wants, then while i am atacking him i generate NO ultimate, but he generates while blocking and getting atacked...Yet another good mecanics to improve Godness of the stam builds.

MADshadowman

In 1.5 i felt pretty strong. And i wasn't using a special build or any crazy sets or anything. I was playing a classic sorcerer, that mostly used his class skills + crushing shock cause we don't have an instant cast dps spell.

My survivability was good and i really felt confident about jumping into fights.

in 1.6 i take so much damage, that i often can't survive even when i'm spamming shields. At the same time i still have the issues i had before. low damage spells, cast times, explosion timers, reflectable spells, expensive spells.

I went from 7 light to 5 light / 2 heavy and that boosted my armor and spell resistance immensely, but it doesn't really make a difference. I still die as fast, but now my spells cost 6% more...

I'm very frustrated now, cause i might have to give up my classic sorcerer build, which is nothing special but it worked well for me. I don't wanna be a 2H monkey, only because it's ridiculously strong atm. I wanna play the way i want, but ZOS keeps ruining this class with every update.

Jar_Ek

Just a note. 2H sorcerer builds are only actually effective because they don't use any sorcerer skills... or at least very few. Most abilities are too expensive and/or scale off magicka, or have better and more cost efficient equivalents elsewhere, or are essentially unusable for the purpose you might want them for. This means that all bar 3 passives are prety much useless as well...

Iago

MADshadowman wrote: »

In 1.5 i felt pretty strong. And i wasn't using a special build or any crazy sets or anything. I was playing a classic sorcerer, that mostly used his class skills + crushing shock cause we don't have an instant cast dps spell.

My survivability was good and i really felt confident about jumping into fights.

in 1.6 i take so much damage, that i often can't survive even when i'm spamming shields. At the same time i still have the issues i had before. low damage spells, cast times, explosion timers, reflectable spells, expensive spells.

I went from 7 light to 5 light / 2 heavy and that boosted my armor and spell resistance immensely, but it doesn't really make a difference. I still die as fast, but now my spells cost 6% more...

I'm very frustrated now, cause i might have to give up my classic sorcerer build, which is nothing special but it worked well for me. I don't wanna be a 2H monkey, only because it's ridiculously strong atm. I wanna play the way i want, but ZOS keeps ruining this class with every update.

I did the last mages guild quest on Eyveya right after 1.6 hit I was level 28 and the quest was level 43. I am using the same build as I was before and it seems I am doing more damage post 1.6

Rioht

I am really displeased with the state of sorcerers in this game, they seem to be extremely underpowered

For the record, I have played sorc since beta and have a VR14.

Recently rerolled a temp and feel like I could take on the world. There was not a single time while playing sorc that I felt comfortable face rolling 10-15 mobs like I do with my templar. I literally just spam penetrating strikes and I'm golden.

Sorc is in a really bad spot, and I expect more nerfs to come because... Why not right.

ZingyDevotee

I don't know what you mean by Sorcs be over-nerfed, I've been playing mine and it still feels powerful. ( All light armor, and the Clannfear )

Rioht

goatlyonesub17_ESO wrote: »

I've noticed for a long time that sorcerers die easier than any other class. I figured it was just that light armor offers little protection, and the spell armor (aegis something, it's a summon spell) did help a little. But only a little. What I started doing to cope with bosses is keep them focused on my summons, which I kept replacing as they died until the boss got so worn down in health that a series of repeated crystal blasts would finish it off before it could turn around and finish me off.

I miscalculated that moment a few times and had to start.. all.. over.

But, yeh, I can see that sorcerers are weak fighters, both offensively and defensively. My pets did the most to defeat Molag Bal. I only showed up to use the big bright knife at the end. That's when I figured out the pet-distraction tactic, which I've been using ever since. If I don't want to die quick, I have to keep running around and calling pets that bite and zap and tail-swish to do the dirty work for me.

The ol' pet distraction tactic is 90% of the game for sorcs. Anytime I came across a tough boss the ONLY way I could kill it/them was to send out the pets, and then use resto skills to keep myself alive while they killed it. The is not any other way to kill any bosses while healing yourself like the other classes can.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

ive returned to the game for the first time this year, and i felt my magicka pool dramatically increased, allowing to spam certian skills, but my damage was way down.

so long as i stick to healing me and my pets, the empowered ward, and the deadric prey spell, my survivablitiy is very high, it just takes me longer to kill mobs.

problem is thats the only build that really feels better, my other build, something i like to call the maelstrom, which was impulse, volcanic rune, that storm armor, magelight, and crit surge got nurfed bit time. Dont get me wrong, it still 'kinda' works, but its more vulnerable than before. even then it only worked on large groups.

so yes, i feel weaker dps speaking, but my resilience and magicka pool feels far better than before. we are meant to be glass cannons, yet i feel like a self repairing glass cannon shooting snowballs.