Community Vision and Increased Moderation

Winnower

MornaBaine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

We've mentioned many times in this thread that we are not intending to censor anyone, but are simply asking that the Community rules (which have been in place since the beginning) are followed and respected. Feedback and thoughts can still be posted, even if they're negative, but it must be constructive.

Please define "constructive." I've asked about this AND given examples in my question on page 2. If you would simply respond to that post a lot of the questions people have here would be answered.

simply put, neither you nor anyone else are going to pin them down on this. while i understand and am somewhat sympathetic with your perspective, i believe that the best recourse is probably to move even constructive criticism to some place like reddit and stop metaphorically beating your head against the concrete. of course i'm speaking as a survivor from days of yore with SOE, Turbine, and EA and occasionally will indulge in a little head-pounding still to this day.

best of luck in your future endeavors . .

stumpy999

See how it goes, it can be cultural sometimes. I have seen stuff "moderated" that was not worth the effort in my opinion. However perception of offense is the key, I might think something is not offensive but it could be highly inflammatory to another group.

Zos have to balance that, so there isn't a right answer as it changes etc.

Nazon_Katts

newtinmpls wrote: »

What the heck happened to 'participated'??

It went into hiding in the options menu, the small cog symbol next to your forum name and avatar on the far right.

ThePonzzz

Sad to see things get stricter. That usually does not foster a community feel. As someone who liked to post a pic response that could likely be seen as trolling, I will miss the LOL button.

Titansteele

MornaBaine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

We've mentioned many times in this thread that we are not intending to censor anyone, but are simply asking that the Community rules (which have been in place since the beginning) are followed and respected. Feedback and thoughts can still be posted, even if they're negative, but it must be constructive.

Please define "constructive." I've asked about this AND given examples in my question on page 2. If you would simply respond to that post a lot of the questions people have here would be answered.

I was full of hope around community involvement and where I currently remain hopeful this is not a good sign. Perhaps they simply do not have enough time to do everything that is expected of them and they need more staff or their model needs reviewed.

Elsonso

Winnower wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

We've mentioned many times in this thread that we are not intending to censor anyone, but are simply asking that the Community rules (which have been in place since the beginning) are followed and respected. Feedback and thoughts can still be posted, even if they're negative, but it must be constructive.

Please define "constructive." I've asked about this AND given examples in my question on page 2. If you would simply respond to that post a lot of the questions people have here would be answered.

simply put, neither you nor anyone else are going to pin them down on this. while i understand and am somewhat sympathetic with your perspective, i believe that the best recourse is probably to move even constructive criticism to some place like reddit and stop metaphorically beating your head against the concrete. of course i'm speaking as a survivor from days of yore with SOE, Turbine, and EA and occasionally will indulge in a little head-pounding still to this day.

best of luck in your future endeavors . .

I have censored myself more than usual in the last few days and am considering other forums.

I find myself unwilling to call someone on a comment that is biased unless I have some opinions backed by fact.

A recent topic had a title phrased to be negative but the text did not support it. This did not seem like something I want to report. It was not offensive, just inconsistent. Normally, I would just make a brief comment that points out the conflict. Since I have no further constructive comment, my only issue being that they are inconsistent, no way am I going to say it.

I'm not intending to flame, and troll status depends on how much people just want to believe what the title says. It is a comment that would be directed at the OP and not the issue and opens the door to the credibility of the OP, so I don't want to be considered an attacker.

Metrobius

This anouncment feels like its aimed at silencing criticism of ZOS rather than improving the community. I think you should have spent some time addressing concerns that many of us who feel that we were told outright lies have. You could have at least calmed some of the speculation.
Now every time you close a critical thread you will start a storm of discussions on other sites that you cant control.

Jaxsun

Metrobius wrote: »

This anouncment feels like its aimed at silencing criticism of ZOS rather than improving the community. I think you should have spent some time addressing concerns that many of us who feel that we were told outright lies have. You could have at least calmed some of the speculation.
Now every time you close a critical thread you will start a storm of discussions on other sites that you cant control.

I couldn't agree more. Rather than fixing the issues that cause all the bad press they want to censor you from saying it.

Iago

Jaxsun wrote: »

Metrobius wrote: »

This anouncment feels like its aimed at silencing criticism of ZOS rather than improving the community. I think you should have spent some time addressing concerns that many of us who feel that we were told outright lies have. You could have at least calmed some of the speculation.
Now every time you close a critical thread you will start a storm of discussions on other sites that you cant control.

I couldn't agree more. Rather than fixing the issues that cause all the bad press they want to censor you from saying it.

That's the thing right there if you silence the dissenting voices then everything sounds wonderful because everyone sounds happy with everything.

Joejudas

Metrobius wrote: »

This anouncment feels like its aimed at silencing criticism of ZOS rather than improving the community. I think you should have spent some time addressing concerns that many of us who feel that we were told outright lies have. You could have at least calmed some of the speculation.
Now every time you close a critical thread you will start a storm of discussions on other sites that you cant control.

i agree. the problem is alot of the people being critical are doing it because we love the game and want it to succeed.Trying to silence players who are being critical will make alot of us just go play something else.

wraith808

They never said you can't be critical. You can give constructive criticism, right?

Digiman

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Spamming: Please do not post spam on the official The Elder Scrolls Online forums. Below are a few examples of what we define as spamming:

Posting the same message more than once
Posting messages that are nonsensical or have no real content
Posting messages or images large enough to disrupt the normal flow of conversation
Reposting material that has been removed by a member of the ESO Team
Also, please refrain from posting the same topic in multiple areas of the forum, or cross-posting in an attempt to gain further views or replies. This is considered spamming, and the duplicate threads will be removed.

Just to put this out there. Is posting an image say a cat meme or some such within the confines of a thread considered spamming? At what point are we not adding anything to the discussion?

I am 100% seriously asking because there may be quite a few people getting the ban hammer for spamming if they are not told ahead of time.

Use your best judgement. As long as the image is generally on-topic, isn't vulgar or gigantic (no long cats, please!), you'll be fine. We're not trying to strip all the fun from the forums.

Yeah sorry but this seems very fascist and controlling from the tone of these. I understand the need to prevent harassment, but threatening to beat a person with a stick for posting "long cat images" is excessive and only really discourages people from discussing any further on these forum. Even now I am contemplating just never visiting these forums or putting my thoughts through on the fear of heavy reprisals from moderators, who may have short tempers or a head ache when making a decision to inflict punishments.

Secondly I think it would be wiser to create a dislike button, this would be far more safer way for people to disagree with something more safely rather then resorting to using words that are posted during flared tempers that could inflict intimidation and fear.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Since I am sure some may be caught by surprise by tighter than "usual" moderation, May I suggest a clear reference to the part of the rules that were broken? This is especially important where enforcement has been more forgiving in the past.

Yes, absolutely. We will always let you know which rule has been broken and why you're being moderated via a PM.[/quote]
[/quote]

By firing squad from the tone of these changes? There is a difference between discouraging bad behavior and outright fear through severe punishments for any minor slip up like a dictatorship. I am sorry if you disagree with this but quite frankly I think this will only discourage people from posting, if anything with such feeling and passion over changes.

Will sorcerers posting their anger about recent changes in combat design be banned outright on a minor technicality or if the moderator themself isn't thinking clearly through an ailment?

Best solution is a vote down or dislike button. But from these changes I think you wouldn't even read this or you will probably reprimand me for speaking my mind. Eitherway these changes don't help the community discussions on hinders them.

People used the Lol button to posters who posted terrible ideas that their ideas were terrible. I got a fair share of Lol's myself, it didn't inflict emotion strain and I am an Autistic, schitzoprenic, sever depression, etc.

TL;DR= Welcome to the Dark times people.

Nazon_Katts

Ah, well. It won't be so bad. Just refrain yourself from posting during the week and do so on weekends only. They work normal hours and there's near to none moderarion then anyways.

On a more serious note, are there any plans to adjust CS schedule, Mods and GMs in particular, to prime time, so we will actually see an increased presence in the evenings and on weekends/holidays? Always found it to be rather puzzling, seeing you work with skeleton crews through high traffic times.

Winnower

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Ah, well. It won't be so bad. Just refrain yourself from posting during the week and do so on weekends only. They work normal hours and there's near to none moderarion then anyways.

On a more serious note, are there any plans to adjust CS schedule, Mods and GMs in particular, to prime time, so we will actually see an increased presence in the evenings and on weekends/holidays? Always found it to be rather puzzling, seeing you work with skeleton crews through high traffic times.

I'm afraid you miss the possible point.

Analogy: In any totalitarian regime the goal is not to catch and enforce the breaking of every incidence of every law. The goal is to be able to get you when they want to. In fact, "they" want you (and everyone) to break the law, so that they can get you when they want to. Then if you become too annoying you are disappeared.

And in the meantime the regime can rest comfortably knowing that the citizenry are all out there keeping their head down: suppressed, repressed, depressed, in fear and insecure. Because they know that you can't obey all the laws all the time and if you have a copy of the wrong book in your house you can be sent to prison or executed.

Of course this is all theoretical hyperbole; obviously ZoS doesn't have a totalitarian regime nor can they do anything worse than ban you. But you see the analogy.

Nazon_Katts

Winnower wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Ah, well. It won't be so bad. Just refrain yourself from posting during the week and do so on weekends only. They work normal hours and there's near to none moderarion then anyways.

On a more serious note, are there any plans to adjust CS schedule, Mods and GMs in particular, to prime time, so we will actually see an increased presence in the evenings and on weekends/holidays? Always found it to be rather puzzling, seeing you work with skeleton crews through high traffic times.

I'm afraid you miss the possible point.

Analogy: In any totalitarian regime the goal is not to catch and enforce the breaking of every incidence of every law. The goal is to be able to get you when they want to. In fact, "they" want you (and everyone) to break the law, so that they can get you when they want to. Then if you become too annoying you are disappeared.

And in the meantime the regime can rest comfortably knowing that the citizenry are all out there keeping their head down: suppressed, repressed, depressed, in fear and insecure. Because they know that you can't obey all the laws all the time and if you have a copy of the wrong book in your house you can be sent to prison or executed.

Of course this is all theoretical hyperbole; obviously ZoS doesn't have a totalitarian regime nor can they do anything worse than ban you. But you see the analogy.

I knew I should have put that first sentence in sarcasm tags.

For the rest, well... you are already doing what 'they' want from you and I'd rather not get into a political discussion.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Spamming.]

nerevarine1138

Jaxsun wrote: »

Metrobius wrote: »

This anouncment feels like its aimed at silencing criticism of ZOS rather than improving the community. I think you should have spent some time addressing concerns that many of us who feel that we were told outright lies have. You could have at least calmed some of the speculation.
Now every time you close a critical thread you will start a storm of discussions on other sites that you cant control.

I couldn't agree more. Rather than fixing the issues that cause all the bad press they want to censor you from saying it.

I wasn't aware that asking for civil discussion and constructive criticism on their private forums was preventing you from offering criticism. Are you saying that players are incapable of being constructive in their posts?

I have some issues with uniform enforcement, but it's very clear that they're doing this to prepare for the new players (and returning trolls) that will soon have access to the forums. Currently, only people with an active subscription can post. Once the switch happens, everyone who ever purchased a copy of the game will be able to post here. A stronger moderator team will be needed to prevent the forums from becoming an utter cesspool.

Oh, and it's worth pointing out that they aren't changing the rules. They're just choosing to enforce them more strictly.

GhostShadows

I hope you guys remember that not all players speak English as a first language.
Some misunderstandings are likely to be banned for those super sensitive north american egos.

Sacadon

It may save us all some brain damage if we just give this approach of ZOS enforcing their existing policy a chance to play out instead of expecting something bad, because if you do I promise you'll find it somehow.

If I thought that there was a way to be proactive and head off some issues, I'd say full-throttle, but I just don't see that happening. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though ).

We do need all the help we can get finding, reporting and posting about game-breaking bugs. We have much influence in this area based on past experience with ZOS.

Armitas

On a positive note I am excited to hear that there will be more direct involvement from the developers on the forums. Gina and Michelle have really done a great job of this already, more so than I have experienced in any MMO.

What I hope to see is more passive involvement with editing or removing the troll, insults, and demands out of posts. This will be good for everyone. Penalizing every infraction of the rules with a warning is not something I look forward too, and I hope that is not entailed by the new initiative. Some times it's okay just to remove the troll and give them a passive warning.

Carter_DC

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

nerevarine1138

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

The dev tracker previews the post and if you want to jump straight to a developer post in a thread, you can click on the green logo and navigate between multiple developer posts in that thread from there (if there are any). It's hardly something that requires effort.

Elsonso

Sacadon wrote: »

It may save us all some brain damage if we just give this approach of ZOS enforcing their existing policy a chance to play out instead of expecting something bad, because if you do I promise you'll find it somehow.

If I thought that there was a way to be proactive and head off some issues, I'd say full-throttle, but I just don't see that happening. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though ).

We do need all the help we can get finding, reporting and posting about game-breaking bugs. We have much influence in this area based on past experience with ZOS.

This was my original line of thinking, and I want it to work this way.

However, I quickly realized that I do not want to be the "example" in a situation where the community and the moderators are deciding how this is going to play out. I have never formally crossed the line, but I feel that the line and I are old friends. Old friends can turn on you. A three strikes and here's the door policy does not leave a lot of room for experimentation. I don't want to be the guinea pig. Someone else can be the lightning rod. I will let them stick their head up above the wall.

It has not escaped me that a lot of people using this response is likely acceptable to them, whether intentional or not.

Still, +1 insightful from me for the level-headed observation.

Nazon_Katts

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

The dev tracker previews the post and if you want to jump straight to a developer post in a thread, you can click on the green logo and navigate between multiple developer posts in that thread from there (if there are any). It's hardly something that requires effort.

Does the inclusion of moderator posts bring any benefit?

MornaBaine

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

I have suggested that moderation posts appear as a different color from Dev posts relating to the topic. So if a thread had both a moderated post telling us to behave and play nice and also a Dev post relating to the topic then two, differently colored, icons would appear and you could click on the one you wanted to see.

wraith808

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

The dev tracker previews the post and if you want to jump straight to a developer post in a thread, you can click on the green logo and navigate between multiple developer posts in that thread from there (if there are any). It's hardly something that requires effort.

Does the inclusion of moderator posts bring any benefit?

Yes. Without transparent moderation, there will be even more accusations of controlling the tenor and content of the boards than you're seeing now. They tell when they've done anything and there's already insinuations that it's not a fair use of moderation.

Nazon_Katts

wraith808 wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

The dev tracker previews the post and if you want to jump straight to a developer post in a thread, you can click on the green logo and navigate between multiple developer posts in that thread from there (if there are any). It's hardly something that requires effort.

Does the inclusion of moderator posts bring any benefit?

Yes. Without transparent moderation, there will be even more accusations of controlling the tenor and content of the boards than you're seeing now. They tell when they've done anything and there's already insinuations that it's not a fair use of moderation.

The question related more to the dev tracker and the fact you cannot distinguish dev and mod posts. The current level of transparency wouldn't decrease, if you kept them seperated.

Epona222

I'm actually pleased to see this - and think it should have been implemented sooner, there is a history here now where some folks seem to think it is OK to be really impolite to other posters, and I don't think that promotes a good atmosphere, at times it can get pretty toxic on here. Some people need to learn that being really rude isn't about exercising free speech, it's just being rude.

Jaxsun

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Metrobius wrote: »

This anouncment feels like its aimed at silencing criticism of ZOS rather than improving the community. I think you should have spent some time addressing concerns that many of us who feel that we were told outright lies have. You could have at least calmed some of the speculation.
Now every time you close a critical thread you will start a storm of discussions on other sites that you cant control.

I couldn't agree more. Rather than fixing the issues that cause all the bad press they want to censor you from saying it.

I wasn't aware that asking for civil discussion and constructive criticism on their private forums was preventing you from offering criticism. Are you saying that players are incapable of being constructive in their posts?

Nope, just that it's a slippery slope to only posting puppies and rainbows.

I have some issues with uniform enforcement, but it's very clear that they're doing this to prepare for the new players (and returning trolls) that will soon have access to the forums. Currently, only people with an active subscription can post. Once the switch happens, everyone who ever purchased a copy of the game will be able to post here. A stronger moderator team will be needed to prevent the forums from becoming an utter cesspool.

Yep, I believe this to the case as well.

Oh, and it's worth pointing out that they aren't changing the rules. They're just choosing to enforce them more strictly.

Therefore, they do not have just cause to discipline anyone if they can't enforce the rules evenly all the time.

wraith808

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

The dev tracker previews the post and if you want to jump straight to a developer post in a thread, you can click on the green logo and navigate between multiple developer posts in that thread from there (if there are any). It's hardly something that requires effort.

Does the inclusion of moderator posts bring any benefit?

Yes. Without transparent moderation, there will be even more accusations of controlling the tenor and content of the boards than you're seeing now. They tell when they've done anything and there's already insinuations that it's not a fair use of moderation.

The question related more to the dev tracker and the fact you cannot distinguish dev and mod posts. The current level of transparency wouldn't decrease, if you kept them seperated.

Ah... I didn't get that from what you posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Nazon_Katts

wraith808 wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Carter_DC wrote: »

With the increase in moderation we'll see a lot more of "staff comments" beeing advertised on the forum pages. (you know with the little green ourobouros)

Unfortunately theses are most of the time misleading, leading you to think that maybe someone in the ZOS staff actually commented or answered on the issue of the thread. When in fact you look through the pages for that post waiting for something interresting and only find a moderation post that has nothing to do with the actual thread.

I'd really like if moderation posts did not appear anymore as "staff posts".

Non-moderation staff posts are valuable to us (and enjoyable). Don't dilute them in a sea of rules warnings.

The dev tracker previews the post and if you want to jump straight to a developer post in a thread, you can click on the green logo and navigate between multiple developer posts in that thread from there (if there are any). It's hardly something that requires effort.

Does the inclusion of moderator posts bring any benefit?

Yes. Without transparent moderation, there will be even more accusations of controlling the tenor and content of the boards than you're seeing now. They tell when they've done anything and there's already insinuations that it's not a fair use of moderation.

The question related more to the dev tracker and the fact you cannot distinguish dev and mod posts. The current level of transparency wouldn't decrease, if you kept them seperated.

Ah... I didn't get that from what you posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No worries, mate.