Community Vision and Increased Moderation

xMovingTarget

Gyudan wrote: »

What is the proper amount of emotes required to mark the difference between irony/sarcasm and bannable offense?

Is lore-based hate still allowed? Can we still joke about orcs (pig-children), khajiits (thieves), argonians (slaves), nords (barbarians), altmers (daedra-worshippers), bretons (greedy) and bosmers (cannibals) ?

I literally cant stop to Call argonians slaves.

UrQuan

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

What is the proper amount of emotes required to mark the difference between irony/sarcasm and bannable offense?

Is lore-based hate still allowed? Can we still joke about orcs (pig-children), khajiits (thieves), argonians (slaves), nords (barbarians), altmers (daedra-worshippers), bretons (greedy) and bosmers (cannibals) ?

I literally cant stop to Call argonians slaves.

I just call them argonian savages. I did see someone in-game whose character name was An-Argonian-Savage-Made-This. I couldn't help but laugh. I sincerely hope that character was the player's crafter.

Ourorboros

Maverick827 wrote: »

In my experience, doing this only leads to trading harassment from players for harassment from moderators. I feel driven away from posting even more now because at least a troll can't ban me.

I've been trying to figure out how to express my response to this thread, and you came very close. I thought the forum was restrictive before this. It strikes me as ironic that an M-rated game has a forum better suited to kids than adults. It's not what I expect from a 'public' forum. I hope I can offer opinions and jokes without the risk of being banned, and not just offer advice on fishing and crafting.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Ourorboros wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

In my experience, doing this only leads to trading harassment from players for harassment from moderators. I feel driven away from posting even more now because at least a troll can't ban me.

I've been trying to figure out how to express my response to this thread, and you came very close. I thought the forum was restrictive before this. It strikes me as ironic that an M-rated game has a forum better suited to kids than adults. It's not what I expect from a 'public' forum. I hope I can offer opinions and jokes without the risk of being banned, and not just offer advice on fishing and crafting.

As mentioned earlier, we don't want to strip the fun out of the forums, nor do we intend to. Instead, we want to foster healthy discussions and ensure that feedback is constructive and helpful for the developers. You can certainly still joke around with each other.

SanderBuraas

I like a healthy and moderated forum. Nice!

Gidorick

All of these are good things. It's good to see the pre-emptive response from the Mods prior to ESO going B2P.

I do wonder, however, if we have had a previous infraction does that count toward the three-strikes-you're-out rule? I posted something that got removed and am wondering if that means the next time this happens (I'll try not to let it happen!) I'll get a 72 hour ban.

Ourorboros

Gidorick wrote: »

I do wonder, however, if we have had a previous infraction does that count toward the three-strikes-you're-out rule? I posted something that got removed and am wondering if that means the next time this happens (I'll try not to let it happen!) I'll get a 72 hour ban.

I'd love to address your question, but it's against forum rules to discuss discipline. Catch-22

Titansteele

I for one think this is great news, my biggest complaint to date is a lack of answers to questions and community management.

Bleakraven

Could we get a suggestions category, maybe? Or perhaps even add some sort of agree/disagree for those suggestions? That way you could quickly see if what someone suggested is highly agreed with or not.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I'm happy about that. Some threads in this forum give or used to give a very negative and wrong image of the game and its community. There is always a way to express disagreement or frustration in a constructive and polite way. It will not only encourage new players to join the game, but also encourage those players to behave appropriately in game. So thanks, Gina and all the team (hope it will make your job more pleasant too).

RunAway

There is such a thing as over moderation and you'll drive players away from the forums. Take a look at Reddit and see why it's so successful.

MornaBaine

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

If one has a complaint about some aspect of the game or company policy is one still allowed to bring that to the forums? Or must all dissatisfaction now be handled privately via customer service?

You are certainly allowed to voice any disagreements or complaints, but it must be done in a constructive manner. For example, just saying "this game sucks" doesn't help anyone or foster any sort of discussion, but letting us know what you're unhappy about, what's broken, what you'd prefer to see, etc. is perfectly fine.

Okay I'm going to throw some "for instances" at you because I am trying to get a clear picture of what you mean here.

I have referred to the Main Quest Storyline as sexist because the only female character in it is a dumb blonde with big breasts. I've also stated my opinion that the questline is trite and rife with fantasy genre stereotypes and I've stated that I feel the plot device of having each and every character in the game ALL be "The One True Hero Who Saves Nirn" is a ludicrous device to use in an MMORPG. Since obviously the main sotryline isn't going to be changed and my opinion might hurt the writer's feelings, will those comments be a bannable offense now?

When discussing the B2P change and whether or not ZOS was planning it all along despite protestations to the contrary, one poster said, "If by stupid you mean intentionally misleading your customers, lying to them and manipulating them for financial gain in a dishonest way... then yes. " Would that now be a bannable offense?

I, and many others, have stated our anger over the change to B2P because we feel it was a very "shady" move in light of this quote by Matt Fior:

"We’re building a game with the freedom to play – alone or with your friends – as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content – one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren’t willing to make."

He has never addressed this quote, let alone offered any sort of apology for misleading us. Is posting this quote and expressing our disappointment, so long as we do not swear or heap aspersions on anyone's mother, now a bannable offense?

You see, I am all for tighter moderation when it comes to the sort of insults and bad behavior one so often sees from players towards each other here on the forums. By all means, crack down on that. But what I fear is REALLY happening here is a deliberate chill on any negative discussion aimed at ZOS and it's simply being implemented under cover of making the forums a "nicer" place. So please clarify your position by looking over the examples above and letting us know if those sorts of things will now fall under the heading of things that will get us the axe. Thank you.

pppontus

Thanks for this. Sadly over the past few weeks there's been a crazy amount of unfounded, non-constructive feedback threads with the general conclusion of: "this sucks, make all the changes exactly the way I want them or I quit!" and then the OPs have went on to literally attack everyone who disagrees.

Looking forward to being able to spend time on the forums without losing faith in humanity!

SantieClaws

I can understand the need for more active moderation here but will the same approach be taken in game? Will there be in game GMs looking out for problems or will it be the case that things are dealt with only if someone actually reports them?

MornaBaine

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

I can understand the need for more active moderation here but will the same approach be taken in game? Will there be in game GMs looking out for problems or will it be the case that things are dealt with only if someone actually reports them?

This subject is probably beyond the purview of this thread but it's also a concern for me with the upcoming switch to B2P. I ALREADY get trolled each and every time I engage in roleplay in this game and there is absolutely no way to stop it. The only time anything happens is if the offender/s stick around long enough to be reported by multiple players all at once and then MAYBE a GM will show up and deal with them. I've only seen that happen twice and that was quite some time ago. Lately, even those flurries of reports seem to be ignored. I think we all know darn well that this will only get worse when the game switches over to B2P. So IF ZOS is truly dedicated to creating a better player experience and plans to do so by more heavily moderating these forums I don't think it's out of line to ask them if they are ALSO going to commit to the increased staff necessary to moderate trolling within the game itself as well. Their answer, or lack of same, will be telling.

Of course, they have ALREADY ignored this issue, which I raised here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/150234/request-from-roleplayers/p1

Kragorn

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

What good does it do to say a game "sucks". I believe they would prefer to know why you dont like it and what can be done to fix it.

I wouldn't disagree, but a censorship regime where someone can be banned for such a comment is, how can I put this without being banned .. interesting.

And yes, I use the word 'censor' deliberately, because this new regime will, and IMO is likely to be intended to, have a chilling effect on dissent .. Turbine did it with LOTRO and now there's barely a negative word about Turbine or the game due to fear of bans, which have been widely used in the past.

Kragorn

MornaBaine wrote: »

When discussing the B2P change and whether or not ZOS was planning it all along despite protestations to the contrary, one poster said, "If by stupid you mean intentionally misleading your customers, lying to them and manipulating them for financial gain in a dishonest way... then yes. " Would that now be a bannable offense?

Clearly yes, because you can be banned for insulting a corporation and not just individuals.

Kragorn

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Also, please define insulting .. suggesting a developer is totally out of touch with players, does that count?

In general, don't make it personal. You should focus on the topic, and not personally attacking other people in the thread.

But I can be banned for 'insulting .. company', so it's a far wider chilling effect than you're making out with this reply.

Clearly saying something like "I think ZOS lied to us about XP tracking" falls right bang into that category of comment, and one you're now saying will get people a ban.

MornaBaine

Kragorn wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

When discussing the B2P change and whether or not ZOS was planning it all along despite protestations to the contrary, one poster said, "If by stupid you mean intentionally misleading your customers, lying to them and manipulating them for financial gain in a dishonest way... then yes. " Would that now be a bannable offense?

Clearly yes, because you can be banned for insulting a corporation and not just individuals.

Because "corporations are people?"

Maverick827

Will there be more moderator oversight now? As it stands, moderators will not even acknowledge your responses to their "you have received a warning" private messages. You have to put in a ticket to dispute moderator actions and it obviously becomes more and more unlikely to get a fair adjudication with more and more layers in between you and the moderator in question. Moderators are people and thus hold biases; no moderation team I have seen or been a part of has been without corruption of some sort.

This is a bad idea, in my opinion. You slightly weaken bad trolls but greatly empower good ones. Remember, the best trolls never look like they're trolling. They will know how to skirt the line. The otherwise good posters they are baiting, however, will not. Everyone can be drawn into posting angrily in a heated discussion. All it takes is one contentious topic (politics, religion, etc.) to remain open for even just an hour for a good troll to trick a nice person into being mean for a second.

What you're going to see is people trolling to get a reaction out of someone and then reporting them to get them banned. You are giving the most malicious people more and better ways to harass everyone else. You're doing this at the same time you're expecting your community to be flooded with console players.

This is not a good idea (please don't ban me for dissenting).

Nazon_Katts

The particular corporations we are dealing with here are of course people. People working and living in a rather totalitarian environment. Which seems to be driven by fear.

Fear of giving away secrets, fear of being misunderstood, fear of letting their agendas show, fear of competition, fear of bad press, fear of recession, fear of regress and fear of failure.

And just like an individual would behave under such an enormous stress, instead of taking themselves back and relaxing, they go all defensive and deal preemptive strikes to protect what they fear to lose.

When dealing with an individual, you'd say it's a pathological state of mind. When dealing with corporations or even nations, it's just business as usual and they're just getting things done, that need to be done.

Darlgon

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

In my experience, doing this only leads to trading harassment from players for harassment from moderators. I feel driven away from posting even more now because at least a troll can't ban me.

I've been trying to figure out how to express my response to this thread, and you came very close. I thought the forum was restrictive before this. It strikes me as ironic that an M-rated game has a forum better suited to kids than adults. It's not what I expect from a 'public' forum. I hope I can offer opinions and jokes without the risk of being banned, and not just offer advice on fishing and crafting.

As mentioned earlier, we don't want to strip the fun out of the forums, nor do we intend to. Instead, we want to foster healthy discussions and ensure that feedback is constructive and helpful for the developers. You can certainly still joke around with each other.

My humble apologies if this has been stated before, or if it is found controversial. However, this means that certain "inconsistencies" in forum moderation may need to be addressed, as one mods "fun" may be another mods abusive talk. At least, that has been my prior experience in other forums, and occasionally here. Moderation ends up being based on the mod's or the forum users feelings on the matter. Basically, the process of forum modding on the back end may need to be moderated also.

( I just read a comment above that must be applauded. The return of the "Disagree" button, with the restrictions that 1.) does not count against the posters account and 2.) only shows the person disapproving of their own vote, may actually help some of the negative feedback that gets vocalized, then baited by the poster disagreed with, then escalated by the reply.Nor could a reply point to the poster for having severe mental retardation, based on forum feedback. Sorry, using "Laugh out Loud", really does not cut it for some serious misinformation, even when I have stated it myself. But, then again, we have been waiting for that forum revamp for HOW LONG?)

Darlgon

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

What is the proper amount of emotes required to mark the difference between irony/sarcasm and bannable offense?

Is lore-based hate still allowed? Can we still joke about orcs (pig-children), khajiits (thieves), argonians (slaves), nords (barbarians), altmers (daedra-worshippers), bretons (greedy) and bosmers (cannibals) ?

I literally cant stop to Call argonians slaves.

Thats Ok.. I call you an oppressive overlord.. (with affection of course).

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Kragorn wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

What good does it do to say a game "sucks". I believe they would prefer to know why you dont like it and what can be done to fix it.

I wouldn't disagree, but a censorship regime where someone can be banned for such a comment is, how can I put this without being banned .. interesting.

And yes, I use the word 'censor' deliberately, because this new regime will, and IMO is likely to be intended to, have a chilling effect on dissent .. Turbine did it with LOTRO and now there's barely a negative word about Turbine or the game due to fear of bans, which have been widely used in the past.

Turbine is crazy. I was on the player council of LOTRO. Me and one of the other main voices on the forum disliked a change. I wrote up an entire book (kidding like 4 pages) of why I didnt like the change and how it would badly affect the game. Without as much as a warning I was perm banned and so was another player council member. Then they revoked our seats on the player council.

6 months later the guy who did it was fired. I was offered my seat back on the council. I declined. It was obvious the player council was only supposed to be "yes" men. So 1 year later I dont even play LOTRO anymore and now am a fan os ESO.

So yes sometimes a person with power can go a little crazy. Lets hope that doesnt happen here.

SantieClaws

Played LOTRO for six years. One of my threads about female dwarves was removed for no reason - never forgotten or forgiven that. That forum was a perfect example of non existant community relations between company and players. Shining example of everything not to do moderation wise.

Elsonso

I have noticed over the last year or so that this forum, more than a lot of forums that I participate in, tends to leap very quickly into the negative sky-is-falling mode very quickly.

I am just as skittish as the next person that I might draw unwanted moderator attention. I do think it is a bit premature to say that Jessica and her minions are going to start wielding the Prismatic Ban Hammer at every opportunity.

On a related topic, I would like to bring up a comment from another thread. When the moderators drop into a topic to moderate it, can this not show up with a green marker on the list of topics? It would be cool if that identified threads with on topic dev response.

Sacadon

lordrichter wrote: »

On a related topic, I would like to bring up a comment from another thread. When the moderators drop into a topic to moderate it, can this not show up with a green marker on the list of topics? It would be cool if that identified threads with on topic dev response.

^^ very good idea.

TheBull

Awe man Gina. The forums were positive I could point to and say "ZOS doesn't lock anything but exploits"....

Now people are gonna start saying ZOS is hiding this, ZOS is afraid of that... Idk maybe it maybe needed for the change to b2p.

Audigy

@ZOS_GinaBruno

In general I think, that the forum got less toxic over the past few months, bar the attacks on ZO officials of course.
I had to report one or two people every week after release and the mods always stepped in. Those reports however have now become rare, I don't know why - but I don't get the rude and toxic replies anymore or I just don't see them

Therefore I am a bit surprised that this is actually a topic in the ZOS office now

Personally I have never been banned in any forums and see myself as a friendly person, but its always a tough job to distinguish between irony, sarcasm or an insult in someone's post.

I remember I posted a funny "Vampire" story under one of @MornaBaine post - it was a joke for me, but I never found out how she saw it.

The danger in general that I see now is, how some members could start reporting such posts to get rid of people they don't like, so I wonder how this will be handled in future and how strict also the "reporters" will be monitored?

I am all for punishing people that are rude and post nonsense, but its going to be a tough job and highly dependent on the mods mood as well, so I wish you guys luck with catching the right ones

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I think this is in anticipation of the B2P launch in March. Less about the people currently here.