Community Vision and Increased Moderation

ZOS_GinaBruno

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

We've mentioned many times in this thread that we are not intending to censor anyone, but are simply asking that the Community rules (which have been in place since the beginning) are followed and respected. Feedback and thoughts can still be posted, even if they're negative, but it must be constructive.

Darlgon

Lol.. forum revamp tomorrow.. and I had to bring it up earlier in the thread.

YAH...



Kinda...after all, the data wont change, just the format..

Grao

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

We've mentioned many times in this thread that we are not intending to censor anyone, but are simply asking that the Community rules (which have been in place since the beginning) are followed and respected. Feedback and thoughts can still be posted, even if they're negative, but it must be constructive.

Oh please, some of your community rules are ridiculous @ZOS_GinaBruno.

Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation: We do not tolerate the deliberate and malicious spreading of false info or conspiracy theories about ZeniMax Online Studios, its game(s), or its employees. This does not include honest mistakes; rather, this rule pertains to those who go out of their way to spread harmful or malicious rumors about ZeniMax Online Studios and its employees, or The Elder Scrolls Online.

This is only a problem because Zenimax's devs have nearly no presence on the Forums! If we had actual information, clarity, TRANSPARENCY, there would be no need for rumors, no space for misinformation and conspiracy theories!

Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.

And how about this little bit? How is this not censorship? We are allowed to discuss punishments? It is so similar to military dictatorship it makes me cringe! According to this, Zenimax is allowed to ban or moderate the forum without offering any justification, so essentially, you reserve your self the right to erase anything we say that is not to your liking!

Darklord_Tiberius

How long will it take for the "dust to settle" and until we can see increased participation from Developers and CSR on topics and discussions relevant to the game? Will all the current threads and topics remain with the new changes to the forums?

Soulshine

Maverick827 wrote: »

In my experience, doing this only leads to trading harassment from players for harassment from moderators. I feel driven away from posting even more now because at least a troll can't ban me.

Having lived through the very unfortunate reign of a particularly tyrannical CM over at LotrO, I totally agree with this view.

The community forums there used to be wonderful and people got to talk freely about many things. When the F2P transition happened, much did change but nothing that has not happened in other games.

It was only when TB decided to heavily clamp down on game criticizm and give CMs free reign that things got so bad. After that, the forums felt completely gutted in many respects for a while, and we also had to deal with tons of CM followers trolling and falsely reporting people for things in the hopes of causing bans and getting rid of other players that did not share their views.

As a result and in the wake of the particular CM leaving the job, we were left with such charming policies as new players being unable to post in ANY of the regular parts of the forums at all. They are relegated to one section only for new players, until such time as they see fit to cut you loose from the kiddie pool, so to speak.

It's one thing to ask people to provide polite constructive feedback, it's quite another to carry that into censoring anything that may be constituted as dissent, however politely voiced. If it gets like that around here, I will certainly leave these forums as I have no wish whatsoever to relive that kind of experience here.

MornaBaine

@ZOS_GinaBruno is there a reason you answered several other questions regarding moderation but chose to not answer mine, which was very specific and cited examples? I would really appreciate a response. Thank you.

Komma

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

Don't confuse freedom of speech with freedom to say whatever you want anywhere you want. The right of people to express their opinions publicly without governmental interference, subject to the laws against libel, incitement to violence or rebellion. It does not cover recourse for your actions in the private sector. They or anyone else has the right to enforce their rules within the limits of the law.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Freedom of speech doesnt apply here. The 1st amendment only applies to the government. As a private invite only club this is not an area governed by free speech.

xherics

I am linking here my prev. post (2 min ago), because it is related to this topic announcement. Yes, it is about sorcerers, but still, about people reaction and not civil comments, posts.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1567683/#Comment_1567683

Ravalox

@ZOS_GinaBruno Could you tell us why it is policy to dis-allow graphics in our signature?

When the policy was first put into place (and our signatures were stripped out), the options to add an image was removed (if I'm remembering it correctly). I recently went into the profile setup and found that the insert image button was again available and even accepted an upload of my banner (so I thought this must mean that we can again use them - and because of this one of my guild mates [Morhawk] got his wrist slapped - oops ).

Enforcing no graphics in the signature via policy only is a bit like entrapment, as more and more new users come into the boards the chances that this particular policy will be missed or forgotten will increase. (you know people don't always read TOS stuff)

The general rule in computing is that "if you can get to something or do something without hitting a security prompt etc ... then it's ok to do it". It would be thought that the same would apply here since it is not difficult to remove the ability to upload an image or use the image BBcode specifically on that config screen.

In addition there are options present in the same signature configuration screen that allow members to strip graphics in the signatures, or strip signature graphics when using a mobile, so I would think the policy has nothing to do with user annoyance. If size was a concern, then imposing a file size or dimension limit can be done as well.

So ... I am really wondering what the reasoning is for this particular policy, and is there any way we can get it rescinded. (not to mention the Avatars too)

Your friend, Ravalox

SantieClaws

The option to choose our own avatars would be nice. On most gaming forums I use a picture of one of my characters. Helps you remember individuals too if you have a unique image to associate them with.

MornaBaine

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Freedom of speech doesnt apply here. The 1st amendment only applies to the government. As a private invite only club this is not an area governed by free speech.

While it is certainly true that there exists no "right" to free speech on these forums I am still distrustful of any entity that would prohibit it. If a company cannot tolerate criticism and will not allow it to be voiced that tells me it's a company with no regard for its customers and that implements business practices that are neither ethical nor acceptable. And while I am not saying this is true of ZOS I am, in fact, concerned by their (thus far) refusal to clarify the types of criticism that will not be tolerated.

MorHawk

Grao wrote: »

And how about this little bit? How is this not censorship? We are allowed to discuss punishments? It is so similar to military dictatorship it makes me cringe! According to this, Zenimax is allowed to ban or moderate the forum without offering any justification, so essentially, you reserve your self the right to erase anything we say that is not to your liking!

Sorry, no. I'd ask you to find *any* major forum where disciplinary action is okay to discuss openly. It's standard practice. Yes, it sucks, no it's not exactly transparent and does give them liberty to moderate however they want without accountability, but don't be singling ZOS out here.

SantieClaws

Free speech anywhere in the world at every point in history has had legal limits and restrictions. There has never been any truly free speech and we would probably all be fed up with it within 10 mins if there were (though I'd like to tell that lady with the rucksack on the seat this morning on the crowded train exactly what I thought of her).

Things will be as Zeni decides they will be and we can only hope they steer through the choppy waters ahead with wisdom and patience.

Otherwise it will be quite a feast for the slaughterfish.

Titansteele

Moderation will often come down to a judgement call by the individual in the position to make that call.
You can argue the merits, systems and rules until you are old and grey but that simple reality will not change.

You do get more gifted people that can play Shakespeare`s "Do you bite your thumb Sir" game with moderators and dance along that line between acceptable and unacceptable and these are the people which can sometimes cause trouble but often these people are the one playing devils advocate and trying to inspire or drive positive change.

You can not please everyone all of the time but there is one simple thing that can be done to make people`s time and effort more valued when they take the time to post something constructive on the forums and that is to provide a reply.

We know you do not make all the decisions but you are our voice to the people that do. The following examples would be enough to satisfy the majority of reasonable posters out there.

"I will take that one forward for you"
"I do not know, I will get back to you on that"
"That is planned for a future update but right now we do not want to give you false expectations so I cant say at this point as to when you will see it"
"That idea is as much use as a chocolate ashtray and we will not take that forward"

I understand ZOS is a business and as a result my expectations around customer service is inline with what I expect from my bank, utilities provider or media provider. If we pose a reasonable question a reasonable response should be provided.

Ravalox

I like the layout changes; a bit easier to find things now. Will need some time to get used to it though

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

MornaBaine wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Freedom of speech doesnt apply here. The 1st amendment only applies to the government. As a private invite only club this is not an area governed by free speech.

While it is certainly true that there exists no "right" to free speech on these forums I am still distrustful of any entity that would prohibit it. If a company cannot tolerate criticism and will not allow it to be voiced that tells me it's a company with no regard for its customers and that implements business practices that are neither ethical nor acceptable. And while I am not saying this is true of ZOS I am, in fact, concerned by their (thus far) refusal to clarify the types of criticism that will not be tolerated.

Noone said criticism wont be allowed. It just needs to be constructive and not personal. Easy peasy.

Jaxsun

So more moderation of the forums means more money spent on them which will lead to less fixing of in-game things that are far more important to the health of the game...

Darlgon

Jaxsun wrote: »

So more moderation of the forums means more money spent on them which will lead to less fixing of in-game things that are far more important to the health of the game...

Fortunately. NONE of the CS guys who mod the forums are programmers or devs.

Jaxsun

Darlgon wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

So more moderation of the forums means more money spent on them which will lead to less fixing of in-game things that are far more important to the health of the game...

Fortunately. NONE of the CS guys who mod the forums are programmers or devs.

I have no doubt, but they already take way too long to fix things in-game, they needed to dump more money into that, not the forums. They would get far less hate mail on the forums if they fixed the in-game issues....

Ravalox

@ZOS_GinaBruno Found a couple of items that might be considered bugs:


1. Cannot enter a @ zos name on a blank line. (if your C/R afer tselecting the Dev name, the entry is wiped leaving the @ symbol behind. To keep it, you must have some other text on the line.

2. Cannot space over to create an indent. text goes back to the left (when set for left justify). Tests below:

This text was entered ten spaces in from the left.

. This text is 36 spaces from the period to the left.


* Love the "Recent" feature. using it heavily!
* Love having the notifications right there too; much easier now!


Ravalox

Roechacca

The best most successful mmo's out there try to limit moderation and keep people talking about the game . People unsub when they loose their line of communication . An since this game has no cross faction chat or merged zones that allow open chat , many come to the forums to do it .

A wise man said Fish only thrive where the water is a little merky . In other words over look some things and people will flourish together . Too many rules makes people want to leave for more comfortable space .

There's no doubt the games population has taken hits since launch . Being pro active instead of prohibiting is the logical choice for customer service . The people that stayed here over looked a lot of flaws with the game and ZOS . Perhaps they should return some in kind ?

Winnower

[/quote](barbarians), altmers (daedra-worshippers), bretons (greedy) and bosmers (cannibals) ?[/quote]

We don't like the "C"-word where I come from; it is considered derogatory. We prefer "humanitarian", please.

Armitas

Could you put an expiration date on a warning. So that if I get a warning today, so long as I get no violations in 2 weeks, my warning will expire. This comes with the caveat that a poster can be permabanned regardless of expired warnings if the action is so egregious as to warrant it.

This will allow posters to be taught correct behavior without removing them permanently. I am also a little worried about posting any cat pictures now and having some option of redemption, such as an expiration date would help a lot.

It's not enough to be worried about ones own comments, but you also have to be worried about other peoples comments, as simply quoting a comment in violation can give you a violation yourself. I'm not going to beat around the bush, I'm a little worried right now.

nerevarine1138

I like the idea of a more strictly enforced system, but I'm wary, given the patchy history with moderation in the past.

It would be nice if this update came with some assurance that the moderation team is going to go through some kind of training-type period where they discuss the standards they're enforcing. In the past, it's been abundantly clear that certain moderators would find fault with posts where other moderators would find healthy debate or harmless fun.

I don't mind seeing the rules tighten, but unless every moderator is on the same page, I'm foreseeing some real issues in the future.

Armitas

roechacca wrote: »

The best most successful mmo's out there try to limit moderation and keep people talking about the game . People unsub when they loose their line of communication . An since this game has no cross faction chat or merged zones that allow open chat , many come to the forums to do it .

A wise man said Fish only thrive where the water is a little merky . In other words over look some things and people will flourish together . Too many rules makes people want to leave for more comfortable space .

There's no doubt the games population has taken hits since launch . Being pro active instead of prohibiting is the logical choice for customer service . The people that stayed here over looked a lot of flaws with the game and ZOS . Perhaps they should return some in kind ?

Well said.

Babylon had a rule that said if a Doctor performs surgery and the patient dies then the doctor will have his hands cut off. If the doctor tries to heal a mans cattle and the cattle dies then the doctor must pay the man for the dead cattle. I forget whether it was Berosus or Apollodorus, but they said. "There were no doctors in Babylon".

nerevarine1138

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bleakraven wrote: »

Could we get a suggestions category, maybe? Or perhaps even add some sort of agree/disagree for those suggestions? That way you could quickly see if what someone suggested is highly agreed with or not.

Yep, we are exploring the option of adding a Disagree option (you know, so you can either Agree or Disagree), among a few other changes to the Reaction flags. These will likely come after the forum visual overhaul.

Please don't.

There's a reason that you guys dropped the "Disagree" button after the beta. People haven't changed.

Zershar_Vemod

Well, this'll be STO all over again.

Something is telling me that the hammer will be dropped more than it should over trivial things imo.

MornaBaine

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Nice threat @ZOS_GinaBruno!

Ops... I mean, thread (or not - LOL)

It is the age of censorship hitting the shores of Tamriel! No liberty to express your self, a constitutional right in many countries, but not on ESO.

We've mentioned many times in this thread that we are not intending to censor anyone, but are simply asking that the Community rules (which have been in place since the beginning) are followed and respected. Feedback and thoughts can still be posted, even if they're negative, but it must be constructive.

Please define "constructive." I've asked about this AND given examples in my question on page 2. If you would simply respond to that post a lot of the questions people have here would be answered.

newtinmpls

What the heck happened to 'participated'??