1.6.2 Sorc Magicka Builds Still Ruined!!! I'm Done! ZoS Read!

Kingdinguhling

pppontus wrote: »

But I won't comment on that until I see more from the other classes. Saying sorcs didn't have a reliable self-heal is not true, as crit surge + 60% crit was insanely OP in 1.5.

LOL why are you commenting on this then?

Wylander

I can't agree that Crit surge is OP on Live. I can't belive that someone is using it in PvP right now on Live as everyone is running around with inpen gear in PvP.
in PvE it might be strong. But only with decent gear. And realy how cares about PvE surviveability? I think it's ok in PvE then no one uses it in PvP.

Kingdinguhling

I Hope they are just forcing us to test pet builds in PTS and will hopefully give us some substantial buffs when it goes live (a reliable heal and possibly fix BE).

But usually these company's don't test like this.

Well there is always Star Citizen...

Holycannoli

I didn't realize some people used Encase and Daedric Mines. I never see them used.

At the very least then I want Rune Prison replaced by a life leech or disease DoT. Life leech would obviously heal us while dealing damage (pair with Entropy and a sorcerer might have some survivability, especially after the shield stacking nerf we all know is coming) and a disease DoT would nerf the target's healing. Those are true "dark" spells.

OtarTheMad

Holycannoli wrote: »

I didn't realize some people used Encase and Daedric Mines. I never see them used.

At the very least then I want Rune Prison replaced by a life leech or disease DoT. Life leech would obviously heal us while dealing damage (pair with Entropy and a sorcerer might have some survivability, especially after the shield stacking nerf we all know is coming) and a disease DoT would nerf the target's healing. Those are true "dark" spells.

I use Shattering Prison and Daedric Minefield a lot actually. Rune Prison not so much, the new morph is nice but I'd rather have that skill I heard was in very early beta called Repulse which was basically a aoe knockback similar to the Death's Wind 5 pc. effect.

Odysseus87

Templar opens up this thread. *Slowly backs away....

Nightreaver

Fayaburn wrote: »

Now that you have more time to answer to other posts, can you explain me how providing opinion and feedback about my class in the PTS section is whining please?

I can answer that for you.
In respect to forums:
Any opinions that differ from your own are considered whining and QQ.
Any opinions that are shared with your own are considered constructive criticism.

ArconSeptim wrote: »

as I said sorcerer style players biggest whiners in the game but have the best dps in game

Don't suppose you have any evidence to support that claim?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game.

"Let's be honest here, I'll only remain happy with my DK as long as I have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. "
There, fixed it for you.

pppontus wrote: »

I would say the legitimate Sorc concerns (lower highest potential DPS) was adressed, as it now has potential to do the highest DPS and imo almost over the top for a ranged caster.

You keep bringing Ranged DPS up as if it's supposed to hold some kind of significance. I often hear people in zone chat looking for a Tank, a Healer or DPS. Have never heard anyone looking for a Ranged DPS.

pppontus wrote: »

Saying sorcs didn't have a reliable self-heal is not true, as crit surge + 60% crit was insanely OP in 1.5.

So the possibility of it becoming OP in 1.6 justifies completely gutting the ability? Think they could find a better compromise that could keep Surge at least viable.

pppontus wrote: »

Again, please do not compare range with melee as it's clear ZOS is differentiating between the two as melee has lower DPS uptime in almost all boss fights.

This would be true ONLY if making comparisons on a Target Dummy. In actual encounters they NEED to be compared for that very reason; to establish a means for encounters to end in balanced DPS between melee and ranged DPS.

pppontus wrote: »

Because melee should be about 10% stronger as there are many fights where they have to spend 10% more time not attacking the boss at all.

Exactly. I would expect melee to do greater DPS during an encounter resulting in melee DPS that matches Ranged at the conclusion of the encounter. In addition, just as you noted that there are many fights where Ranged have the advantage there are others where they do not. For this reason DPS over multiple encounters should be considered not just the ones that support one side or the other.

pppontus wrote: »

"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."

Ok, again, when a group is looking for someone to fill a DPS role they only care about how much DPS the person can do. NO ONE CARES HOW THAT DAMAGE IS ACHIEVED. So no, it makes absolutely no sense that melee should be consistently topping ranged DPS at the end of encounters. If encounters are consistently ending with melee DPS topping ranged DPS then either melee has been overcompensated or the encounters really aren't that much more difficult.

manny254 wrote: »

Here is a shocking idea that will get me crucified.
Hey all you sorcs. Your class has a skill line dealing with pets. Your class is a pet class. If you don't want to use any pets at all in any situation that is your fault.

So using that logic.
Templar is a Healing class. Or at least as much one as a Sorcerer is a pet class. Therefore Templers have no reason to complain about lack of DPS.
NBs are a Stealth class so they shouldn't be concerned about DPS either.

If you counter saying Templars should be able should be able to differentiate and choose to be a Healer using the Heal line or DPS using a DPS line then the same option should be available to Sorcerers. Sorcerers should be able to DPS using a pet build through the pet line or DPS with a non-pet build through an alternative line equally as well.

And actually most Sorcerers do use at least one ability from the pet line in 1.6 that provides synergy with the other ability lines , Hardened Ward. Unfortunately there are too many people from other classes whining to have it nerfed.

pppontus wrote: »

Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..

As someone who has not yet had the opportunity to compare DPS between classes in 1.6 I am still waiting for someone to provide evidence that this is the case. Would love nothing more than to see a comparison of DPS between classes on an even playing field, each optimized to display their best DPS. And by that I mean all classes wearing the same armor (Light, Medium or Heavy} and each min/maxed to achieve highest DPS including attributes spent. (So no, I don't expect someone that has dumped all attributes in health to do as well as someone that has put all attributes in Stamina/Magicaka)

pppontus wrote: »

There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.

Bad, good? I suppose that is subjective.
I can say I am enjoying playing a Sorcerer in 1.6.
I can't say how Sorcerer compares to any other class.
Still waiting for someone will provide some insight to that.

Azrazel

I think the idea of Daedric Summoning as a separate skill line that any class can pickup is a good idea. If ZOS did this though, I would like to see a Frost Troll as a tank pet.

Nihil

I would like to point out that for the pet build you do not need to have three toggles as was pointed out earlier. While in some cases it might be beneficial to have both summons you could still survive with just 2 toggles on your bar (you don't need inner light). I decided to make a template sorc and see what I could do against an easy boss, while this might not be the greatest example I still was able to pull off 6k dps (only 40 some seconds) with all 7 pieces being aether gear, not using an ultimate, and with 70 cp spent.



I figure with party buffs (as I don't have the templars minor sorcery buff, nor aggressive horn) as long with him not having major breach. These along with better armor I believe I could push up my dps quite a bit. With atronoch summon I was able to push to 7 k dps.



Choose that ultimate because in a group setting I would also be increasing another players damage by 25 % which is not something to forget about ( specially if you can land it near a stamina dpser who has amazing dps). While these numbers probably don't look good, it is still a start for a template character and shows that you shouldn't need all your slots filled with toggles.

Some things to note, due to the new buff system you do not need inner lite on your bar if you don't want to have it their. As potions can last over 30 seconds now, you can get it to a point where you will only be with out the buff for 10 seconds, which also would grant you major sorcery buff with no cast time too. While you do lose some dps during the time frame of not having the 2 buffs up, you do gain some advantage in more skill slots and not having to cast entropy every like 15 seconds. ( I still had inner light as I didn't want to give up the 7 % magicka).

With this test I also restricted my self to purely range skills, there are some close range skills that could easily add more damage. Per cast thundering presence deals ~ 9k damage, over 23 seconds. I bet there are others I would need to look into tho first too.

With that tho, I do think they should look at some aspects of the sorc class. With the implementation of the group passive buffs they took away one of the sorcs (and templars) passives, while they just added onto passives for the DK and NB. Exploitation had a lot of synergy with some of our abilities and it is sad to see it go, it would be nice to see a passive increase that would aid in our dps outside the pet build also worked in their (spell and armor penetration, as I don't think pets use our penetration scores, this also goes for the templars passive that was taken away too).

It would be nice to also see something done with daedric mines, I know the damage is now amazing if you can get them to detonate seperately, but it loses its usefullness in boss fights as they made it that the damage doesn't apply if multiple detonate too soon. I could see reduced damage but completely negating damage can lead to this skill not being all that useful (basing it on patch notes, haven't actually tested).

We did choose a class that had 1/3 of the skill lines dedicated to pets. If we are choosing not to use them we should keep in mind that we might be loosing some of the synergy of our class. Summons are basically the Dot's of the sorc class. Not requiring to cast them as frequent is a bonus and can make it hard to balance our class with in itself, as we are not wasting time casting the dot every X seconds, nor are we using the mana to maintain it (as often hopefully).

Greagor

sorcerers will depend to their pets for dps? seriously? i have to play with a chicken and a flying monkey in order to do dps? Even the visual part sounds terrible. The pets will even be stronger than the sorc? Whats the plan here?

If you really think that this set up is for the best and you want to cause more lag in the trials with all these ugly pets around ( 3 sorcs in a trial means 6 more models that need to be rendered in the area preventing us to see actual monsters, bosses etc ) at least give us skeleton armies, zombies and stuff like that.

I made a sorcerer cause i thought i could be a bad ass caster focused on dps.. obviously.. and guess what? sorcerers are not one of the best casters. DragonKNIGHTS are. Yes.. Knights. With light armor. And a staff.
Dont get me wrong.. i also have a Dk and i play with dual wield/medium armor stamina build and i love it.

I really like the fact that you can do whatever you want with your character and play how you want to play.. but please.. make Sorcerers the ultimate caster class. Give them more passives? stronger class skills? More offensive skills? Right now we have one main damage skill ( crystal fragments ) and one execute (mages wrath). This is not enough for a dps class.
Dont force people to create sorcs only for the negate.

Emma_Overload

Are people really counting Overload attacks as DPS for Sorcs? LOL, each attack cost 22 Ultimate, but you're typically only gaining 3 Ultimate per second at best.

So.... over time, you can only sustain the use of ONE Overload attack every 7-8 seconds. You know what that means? Overload is IRRELEVANT in any discussion of Sorcerer PvE DPS.

It's perfectly obvious where this BS is coming from. PVP whiners, most of whom rolled DK a long time ago, are mad cause they got killed on PTS once by burst damage from an Overload attack...

NEWSFLASH: The guy who killed you probably ran out of Ultimate 10 seconds later and got killed by somebody else!

PVP whiners, please stop coming onto Sorcerer threads and spouting crap about PVE that you know NOTHING about.

Holycannoli

Greagor wrote: »

sorcerers will depend to their pets for dps? seriously? i have to play with a chicken and a flying monkey in order to do dps? Even the visual part sounds terrible. The pets will even be stronger than the sorc? Whats the plan here?

If you really think that this set up is for the best and you want to cause more lag in the trials with all these ugly pets around ( 3 sorcs in a trial means 6 more models that need to be rendered in the area preventing us to see actual monsters, bosses etc ) at least give us skeleton armies, zombies and stuff like that.

I made a sorcerer cause i thought i could be a bad ass caster focused on dps.. obviously.. and guess what? sorcerers are not one of the best casters. DragonKNIGHTS are. Yes.. Knights. With light armor. And a staff.
Dont get me wrong.. i also have a Dk and i play with dual wield/medium armor stamina build and i love it.

I really like the fact that you can do whatever you want with your character and play how you want to play.. but please.. make Sorcerers the ultimate caster class. Give them more passives? stronger class skills? More offensive skills? Right now we have one main damage skill ( crystal fragments ) and one execute (mages wrath). This is not enough for a dps class.
Dont force people to create sorcs only for the negate.

ZOS, Bombay style

It's more relevant than we think.

jelliedsoup

imagine if they ever nerfed dks.

TheBull

Greagor wrote: »

I really like the fact that you can do whatever you want with your character and play how you want to play.. but please.. make Sorcerers the ultimate caster class. Give them more passives? stronger class skills? More offensive skills? Right now we have one main damage skill ( crystal fragments ) and one execute (mages wrath). This is not enough for a dps class.
Dont force people to create sorcs only for the negate.

In-Game Description: Sorcerers use conjuration and destruction spells, hurling lightning bolts and creating shock fields, wielding dark magic to snare and stun, and sumonning [sic] from Oblivion to conjure Daedric combat followers.

Says nothing about ultimate caster class in the description.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sorcerer

VarilRau

Holycannoli wrote: »

I've never seen a sorc build that dedicated a slot to Encase. It's even worse in 1.6 where you have to dedicate 6 slots to toggles for best DPS.

It was actually useful on veteran PVE before it got nerfed. Then the game was pretty much 2 trash -> you can kill them, 3 trash no way.

Every second group had 3 trash in them.

But for the last 10 months, no, havent used it. And for group content, DK's have one that won't break for a little splash damage.

Ace_SiN

Holycannoli wrote: »

I would prefer the Dark Magic line have life leeches and DoTs over the useless skills nobody ever uses. I've never once seen Encase, Rune Prison or Daedric Mines used. They could ninja replace them and nobody would notice.

They could replace them with a life leech, a poison attack and maybe a disease-based DoT. To me those are proper "dark" type spells.

Who here would be opposed to replacing Encase, Rune Prison and Daedric Mines with a life leech, a poison attack and a disease DoT? My guess is nobody.

I'm aware Entropy is a life leech but it doesn't benefit from the Dark Magic passives.

So much this.. I'm not a huge sorc player, but I've always been disappointed with the Dark Magic skill line. It seems rushed and not well thought out.

olsborg

As a 1year sorcplaying vet. I would like a few things for sorcs in 1.6.

Reduce cast time of summon twilight, or remove it entirely.
If not the above, make it much more tankier, its too easy to kill atm.
Some instant cast direct damage ability. We're too slow atm.
A more reliable self-heal. <-this one is high on the list.

olsborg

Holycannoli wrote: »

I would prefer the Dark Magic line have life leeches and DoTs over the useless skills nobody ever uses. I've never once seen Encase, Rune Prison or Daedric Mines used. They could ninja replace them and nobody would notice.

They could replace them with a life leech, a poison attack and maybe a disease-based DoT. To me those are proper "dark" type spells.

Who here would be opposed to replacing Encase, Rune Prison and Daedric Mines with a life leech, a poison attack and a disease DoT? My guess is nobody.

I'm aware Entropy is a life leech but it doesn't benefit from the Dark Magic passives.

I use mines, quite alot. But the Rune Prison, yes, its utterly useless (pvp) and I like your idea

Spangla

Erondil wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.

I really hope they dont test balances only on PVP... or a mudcrab could balance better than developers

Balancing pvp is the only thing that matters though..... Who cares if in pve a class does slightly less dps and it takes 10 seconds more to kill a boss.

pvp is far more important than pve balance.

atm - There is only one class on the PTS struggling - NB as usual.

florian.billeb16_ESO

Spangla wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.

I really hope they dont test balances only on PVP... or a mudcrab could balance better than developers

Balancing pvp is the only thing that matters though..... Who cares if in pve a class does slightly less dps and it takes 10 seconds more to kill a boss.

pvp is far more important than pve balance.

Me I care if in PVE I do 60 % less damage than best class now or 300 % less damage in AOE, that's for the 1.5.

Balancing PVE is really important... just have a look on sanctum best time in EU

9 DK, 2 Templar, 1 NB...

Class in 1.5 for PVE are really not balanced, and I hope that will be bether in 1.6.

After you have right, PVP is really important but PVE too, and we don't speak about 10 % less damage, now it's maybe 60 %, and that are just not acceptable

Derra

olsborg wrote: »

As a 1year sorcplaying vet. I would like a few things for sorcs in 1.6.

Reduce cast time of summon twilight, or remove it entirely.
If not the above, make it much more tankier, its too easy to kill atm.
Some instant cast direct damage ability. We're too slow atm.
A more reliable self-heal. <-this one is high on the list.

Lower casttime would be fine. As the heal resets when the pet dies and a resummon can heal again instant cast would be too powerful in my opinion.

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

I would prefer the Dark Magic line have life leeches and DoTs over the useless skills nobody ever uses. I've never once seen Encase, Rune Prison or Daedric Mines used. They could ninja replace them and nobody would notice.

They could replace them with a life leech, a poison attack and maybe a disease-based DoT. To me those are proper "dark" type spells.

Who here would be opposed to replacing Encase, Rune Prison and Daedric Mines with a life leech, a poison attack and a disease DoT? My guess is nobody.

I'm aware Entropy is a life leech but it doesn't benefit from the Dark Magic passives.

So much this.. I'm not a huge sorc player, but I've always been disappointed with the Dark Magic skill line. It seems rushed and not well thought out.

I don´t like dark conversion at all. Same with rune prison. They would need a reword imho (though i know ppl using conversion).

However mines (tomb and minefield) are insanely useful in pvp. The root could use its mechanic reworked - spell in general is fine for my taste.

Morvul

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

Me I care if in PVE I do 60 % less damage than best class now or 300 % less damage in AOE, that's for the 1.5.

how do you do 300% less of something?
are you trying to convey that your impulses actually heal the enemies for 600 per cast, in contrast to DKs AoE?

That said: yeah, nothing comes close to DK in AoE damage, and I don't think that's changing with 1.6

Magdalina

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

@Derra‌ so you cant weave overload light and class spells anymore?

Nope, not since 1.6.1

EDIT: Though they did buff the damage since ofc. Worth mentioning

The damage buff was nice. However it didn't make up for the loss of light attack weaving. Rumor has it further nerfs are coming next week and Overload is one of them.

In my mind this roughly translates to

"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."

But what do I know.. I mean, I use a pet. *gasp*

No that's not what it translates too. I am the starter of this thread. I don't want further nerfs. Maybe learn to read? If you insist on taking so much skooma...go trip out somewhere else dude.

Haha, I know you started the thread. That's the joke, by now half of this thread is just complaining to complain. Not about any sort of legitimate issues. It's almost like you'd want further nerfs so that you can continue complaining.

Tankqull wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

Nybling wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I just watched a sorc get 14k dps with a caster build. Before you ask they had 90 champion points spent.

Build and rotation pls?

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/page/4/#post-567158

The current last post in thread.

I want to see this man to do the DPS for more than 100 seconds... Impossible, the dps drops to 8k all the time...

I think you underestimate how sustainable overload is. Light Attacks w/ Overload regenerate Ultimate. After a minute I still had almost 700 ultimate left and that was with constant weaving after each crystal frags.

Nybling...not trying to be rude. However you're the same person champing pet builds along with Erlexx on Tamriel Foundry. I don't think anyone here respects you for that or that you are helping the further downfall of our class.

If you hadn't noticed. The major of the people who play this class, are seriously unhappy with it, and we are all calling for change. This thread alone is proof of that.

Overload is bugged and has been reported 101 times. It will be fixed.

As a member of Entropy Rising you have the Developers ear some what. You of all people should be using to pull out class out of the dump.

Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. Frankly I'm getting tired of people whining about pet builds just like nightblades who whined their class sucked and would always say something moronic like "they're nightBLADES not nightSTAFFS."

It gets old and your class doesn't suck so quit whining.

nope all i want is the sorc atleast on the same lvl in 1.6 as it is in 1.5 compared to other classes. and thats not the case instead of buffs we recieved nerfes all overthe place hidden behind nice formulations in the patch notes.

Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..

[...]

There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.

So about us being bad...

So I did some (more) testing on PTS. I won't say anything about pure group oriented dps because I haven't tested this yet so I'll leave this part out until I do.

My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown? I see this an issue even in group content because taking pressure off healer/being able to last some on their own was one of few things sorc had going for them. Now that's gone, delightful. But what about solo content? Hell what about just those welwa packs in Upper Crag? In before me sucking, yes I can solo them. I was just trying to get the feel of my class overall and seems I can still solo most Lower Crag and Upper Crag trash - with resto staff and pets. Because if there're more than 3 mobs, they will get me through shields and I will have to use resto staff or die. There's just NOTHING I can do to prevent that outside of resto staff(well, I think 2h has a heal somewhere? Let's call it weapon heal then). It's not like I didn't use it before but this just feels horrible now. I feel...helpless. And I don't have an issue learning to play. I have an issue opening my class trees, looking at them and realizing there's NOTHING there to help me.

For comparison, I made a v14 templar template(resisted using those 3600 points on her, just used 70 or so) and she could solo same trash packs just spamming Puncturing Sweep. One ability. It heals, it does some damage, it even CCs. Don't have to jump around, don't need to use resto staff, just charge in and spam it. If that happens to be not enough there's always BoL to help me out when something goes wrong. I was soloing Lower Crag with using ZERO weapon skills on a templar, I had everything I needed and more.

I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS(I'll try to test other classes later, too). Even if we do magically pull more dps than other classes in group stuations now(which I don't see how it could be possible but I'll wait til I can test this), this isn't good enough to pay for feeling absolutely helpless out of them.

pppontus

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.

I really hope they dont test balances only on PVP... or a mudcrab could balance better than developers

Balancing pvp is the only thing that matters though..... Who cares if in pve a class does slightly less dps and it takes 10 seconds more to kill a boss.

pvp is far more important than pve balance.

Me I care if in PVE I do 60 % less damage than best class now or 300 % less damage in AOE, that's for the 1.5.

Balancing PVE is really important... just have a look on sanctum best time in EU

9 DK, 2 Templar, 1 NB...

Class in 1.5 for PVE are really not balanced, and I hope that will be bether in 1.6.

After you have right, PVP is really important but PVE too, and we don't speak about 10 % less damage, now it's maybe 60 %, and that are just not acceptable

I guess you're massively exaggerating as you definitely shouldn't be pulling less than 60% of DKs unless you're doing something terribly wrong. With the best Sorc build ~10-15% less, yes, and with the standard build probably 20% less. Anyway, that has no relevance anymore for 1.6 so that's all good.

Magdalina wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

@Derra‌ so you cant weave overload light and class spells anymore?

Nope, not since 1.6.1

EDIT: Though they did buff the damage since ofc. Worth mentioning

The damage buff was nice. However it didn't make up for the loss of light attack weaving. Rumor has it further nerfs are coming next week and Overload is one of them.

In my mind this roughly translates to

"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."

But what do I know.. I mean, I use a pet. *gasp*

No that's not what it translates too. I am the starter of this thread. I don't want further nerfs. Maybe learn to read? If you insist on taking so much skooma...go trip out somewhere else dude.

Haha, I know you started the thread. That's the joke, by now half of this thread is just complaining to complain. Not about any sort of legitimate issues. It's almost like you'd want further nerfs so that you can continue complaining.

Tankqull wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

Nybling wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I just watched a sorc get 14k dps with a caster build. Before you ask they had 90 champion points spent.

Build and rotation pls?

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/page/4/#post-567158

The current last post in thread.

I want to see this man to do the DPS for more than 100 seconds... Impossible, the dps drops to 8k all the time...

I think you underestimate how sustainable overload is. Light Attacks w/ Overload regenerate Ultimate. After a minute I still had almost 700 ultimate left and that was with constant weaving after each crystal frags.

Nybling...not trying to be rude. However you're the same person champing pet builds along with Erlexx on Tamriel Foundry. I don't think anyone here respects you for that or that you are helping the further downfall of our class.

If you hadn't noticed. The major of the people who play this class, are seriously unhappy with it, and we are all calling for change. This thread alone is proof of that.

Overload is bugged and has been reported 101 times. It will be fixed.

As a member of Entropy Rising you have the Developers ear some what. You of all people should be using to pull out class out of the dump.

Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. Frankly I'm getting tired of people whining about pet builds just like nightblades who whined their class sucked and would always say something moronic like "they're nightBLADES not nightSTAFFS."

It gets old and your class doesn't suck so quit whining.

nope all i want is the sorc atleast on the same lvl in 1.6 as it is in 1.5 compared to other classes. and thats not the case instead of buffs we recieved nerfes all overthe place hidden behind nice formulations in the patch notes.

Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..

[...]

There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.

So I did some (more) testing on PTS. I won't say anything about pure group oriented dps because I haven't tested this yet so I'll leave this part out until I do.

My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown? I see this an issue even in group content because taking pressure off healer/being able to last some on their own was one of few things sorc had going for them. Now that's gone, delightful. But what about solo content? Hell what about just those welwa packs in Upper Crag? In before me sucking, yes I can solo them. I was just trying to get the feel of my class overall and seems I can still solo most Lower Crag and Upper Crag trash - with resto staff and pets. Because if there're more than 3 mobs, they will get me through shields and I will have to use resto staff or die. There's just NOTHING I can do to prevent that outside of resto staff(well, I think 2h has a heal somewhere? Let's call it weapon heal then). It's not like I didn't use it before but this just feels horrible now. I feel...helpless. And I don't have an issue learning to play. I have an issue opening my class trees, looking at them and realizing there's NOTHING there to help me.

For comparison, I made a v14 templar template(resisted using those 3600 points on her, just used 70 or so) and she could solo same trash packs just spamming Puncturing Sweep. One ability. It heals, it does some damage, it even CCs. Don't have to jump around, don't need to use resto staff, just charge in and spam it. If that happens to be not enough there's always BoL to help me out when something goes wrong. I was soloing Lower Crag with using ZERO weapon skills on a templar, I had everything I needed and more.

I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS(I'll try to test other classes later, too). Even if we do magically pull more dps than other classes in group stuations now, this isn't good enough to pay for feeling absolutely helpless out of them.

I get that, but you have 2 things to consider here:

Thou shall not tank in light armor!! This was stated by the Developers as something that was not working as intended. You will be squishy and most likely die to everything that can overpower you, I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is their intention so.. that part is what it is.

Secondly, you're comparing a "healer/tank" class to a "caster/dps" class here. In 1.5 the sorc was the easiest thing ever to grind massive packs with, and only using a single buff and a single skill. Everything would just die while you could heal yourself for more than your own max health per second. That isn't balance, that's ridiculous.

Trust me, you can still solo packs in Craglorn fairly easy, but you have to be smart about it now. Use hardened ward, a pet, some entropy, maybe healing ward? There are ways, but they force you to do more than Surge->Impulse. Imo, a very good thing. I never liked crit surge, as it just felt completely wrong to me, it was ridiculous how powerful it was. I get that you might not see this if you haven't spent that much time with other classes.. I have, and I can say that skill was wrong.

Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I don't think all classes should have a self heal.

ping @Magdalina‌ bcause edited post.. so you'll see my response

---

Now I'd like to address something that's come up a lot in different threads, from @Nightreaver‌ , @Fayaburn‌ , @daemonios‌ among others, that the difference between ranged and melee is too significant and/or that there's no real punishment for being melee.

The difference between range and melee, 1.6 style

Let's begin with stating that Melee does some 10-20% more DPS on average, there are certain melee builds and ranged builds that do much more/less but on a sort of average.

Then we'll go ahead and analyze some fights, let's begin with AA.

Lightning Storm Atronach
Forces you to run away to a random location every x amount of seconds, where the chances are ~80% that you cannot do any damage at all for the duration if you're melee. Ranged will win this fight.

Foundation Stone Atronach
A bit easier depending on Strategy, forces you to move around the boss which makes targeting harder, but generally you can stay close. Melee will win this fight.

Varlariel
Melee is much more dangerous as it's in the concentration of where raindrops fall, meaning you will have a lot more potential oneshots to constantly avoid. Additionally you will have to kill a large amount of adds, where you will have to run from boss to add to add etc. Ranged will most likely win this fight.

The Mage
Extremely unfriendly to melee, you cannot possibly have too many people in Melee here as ~5 people to close will result in all 5 getting oneshot by chain lightning. As long as you don't have too many melee, your DPS will be high, but you better hope that your ranged users can deal with the minimages. Melee will most likely win this fight.

That's one of the trials, adapted for the strategies that 90% of groups will need to use to be able to get through AA in 1.6.

I could continue to do this and name more melee-unfriendly fights such as Ra-Kotu, The Warrior, Mantikora, Stonebreaker. Also completely melee-friendly fights like The Serpent. You can see a pattern though, currently about half the fights in Trials will be won by melee DPS and the others by ranged DPS.

I can assure you that as a raid leader myself, I'll be looking to have a good balance between range and melee, especially in 1.6.

As far as Vet Dungeons go, it's pretty much the same deal. It will be a great disadvantage to be Melee when fighting Maw of the Infernal, Praxin, Imiril, the Lich in Wayrest, etc. And there are also fights where it's more than fine, such as Blood Spawn.

There will always be a few groups who prioritise DPS over everything and maybe their entire strategies will be built around trying to get an entire group in Melee, fine, that's their call. From my own perspective however, I don't see that as being the case for us going forward. Of course, we can't know for sure until we start seeing some high leaderboard times, and more theorycrafted builds.

I hope this clarifies why I think that Sorcerers are in a very good spot in 1.6, and why I'm much happier about my Sorc going forward more than any of my other 4 VR14s of all classes.

Peace.

A1exeR

pppontus wrote: »

Lightning Storm Atronach
Forces you to run away to a random location every x amount of seconds, where the chances are ~80% that you cannot do any damage at all for the duration if you're melee. Ranged will win this fight.

If you have a normal DPS you do not need run away

pppontus

A1exeR wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Lightning Storm Atronach
Forces you to run away to a random location every x amount of seconds, where the chances are ~80% that you cannot do any damage at all for the duration if you're melee. Ranged will win this fight.

If you have a normal DPS you do not need run away

You can, technically, still stack and burn on that fight but it's very hard to pull off and will pretty much result in deaths.

I don't know if people are unaware of this, but a lot of things have changed in Trials for 1.6.. I have actually done it, so I know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLqXeE1EZuo

You can do it like this, but it took quite a few tries and good timing.. for 90% of groups, moving to the circles will be a better strategy.

Magdalina

pppontus wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

@Derra‌ so you cant weave overload light and class spells anymore?

Nope, not since 1.6.1

EDIT: Though they did buff the damage since ofc. Worth mentioning

The damage buff was nice. However it didn't make up for the loss of light attack weaving. Rumor has it further nerfs are coming next week and Overload is one of them.

In my mind this roughly translates to

"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."

But what do I know.. I mean, I use a pet. *gasp*

No that's not what it translates too. I am the starter of this thread. I don't want further nerfs. Maybe learn to read? If you insist on taking so much skooma...go trip out somewhere else dude.

Haha, I know you started the thread. That's the joke, by now half of this thread is just complaining to complain. Not about any sort of legitimate issues. It's almost like you'd want further nerfs so that you can continue complaining.

Tankqull wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

Nybling wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I just watched a sorc get 14k dps with a caster build. Before you ask they had 90 champion points spent.

Build and rotation pls?

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/page/4/#post-567158

The current last post in thread.

I want to see this man to do the DPS for more than 100 seconds... Impossible, the dps drops to 8k all the time...

I think you underestimate how sustainable overload is. Light Attacks w/ Overload regenerate Ultimate. After a minute I still had almost 700 ultimate left and that was with constant weaving after each crystal frags.

Nybling...not trying to be rude. However you're the same person champing pet builds along with Erlexx on Tamriel Foundry. I don't think anyone here respects you for that or that you are helping the further downfall of our class.

If you hadn't noticed. The major of the people who play this class, are seriously unhappy with it, and we are all calling for change. This thread alone is proof of that.

Overload is bugged and has been reported 101 times. It will be fixed.

As a member of Entropy Rising you have the Developers ear some what. You of all people should be using to pull out class out of the dump.

Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. Frankly I'm getting tired of people whining about pet builds just like nightblades who whined their class sucked and would always say something moronic like "they're nightBLADES not nightSTAFFS."

It gets old and your class doesn't suck so quit whining.

nope all i want is the sorc atleast on the same lvl in 1.6 as it is in 1.5 compared to other classes. and thats not the case instead of buffs we recieved nerfes all overthe place hidden behind nice formulations in the patch notes.

Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..

[...]

There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.

So I did some (more) testing on PTS. I won't say anything about pure group oriented dps because I haven't tested this yet so I'll leave this part out until I do.

My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown? I see this an issue even in group content because taking pressure off healer/being able to last some on their own was one of few things sorc had going for them. Now that's gone, delightful. But what about solo content? Hell what about just those welwa packs in Upper Crag? In before me sucking, yes I can solo them. I was just trying to get the feel of my class overall and seems I can still solo most Lower Crag and Upper Crag trash - with resto staff and pets. Because if there're more than 3 mobs, they will get me through shields and I will have to use resto staff or die. There's just NOTHING I can do to prevent that outside of resto staff(well, I think 2h has a heal somewhere? Let's call it weapon heal then). It's not like I didn't use it before but this just feels horrible now. I feel...helpless. And I don't have an issue learning to play. I have an issue opening my class trees, looking at them and realizing there's NOTHING there to help me.

For comparison, I made a v14 templar template(resisted using those 3600 points on her, just used 70 or so) and she could solo same trash packs just spamming Puncturing Sweep. One ability. It heals, it does some damage, it even CCs. Don't have to jump around, don't need to use resto staff, just charge in and spam it. If that happens to be not enough there's always BoL to help me out when something goes wrong. I was soloing Lower Crag with using ZERO weapon skills on a templar, I had everything I needed and more.

I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS(I'll try to test other classes later, too). Even if we do magically pull more dps than other classes in group stuations now, this isn't good enough to pay for feeling absolutely helpless out of them.

I get that, but you have 2 things to consider here:

Thou shall not tank in light armor!! This was stated by the Developers as something that was not working as intended. You will be squishy and most likely die to everything that can overpower you, I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is their intention so.. that part is what it is.

Secondly, you're comparing a "healer/tank" class to a "caster/dps" class here. In 1.5 the sorc was the easiest thing ever to grind massive packs with, and only using a single buff and a single skill. Everything would just die while you could heal yourself for more than your own max health per second. That isn't balance, that's ridiculous.

Trust me, you can still solo packs in Craglorn fairly easy, but you have to be smart about it now. Use hardened ward, a pet, some entropy, maybe healing ward? There are ways, but they force you to do more than Surge->Impulse. Imo, a very good thing. I never liked crit surge, as it just felt completely wrong to me, it was ridiculous how powerful it was. I get that you might not see this if you haven't spent that much time with other classes.. I have, and I can say that skill was wrong.

Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I don't think all classes should have a self heal.

That's okay if I'm not supposed to (easily) solo Crag trash in light armor, but why could my v14 templar in 7/7 light do this spamming Sweep just as easily as I could on live sorc spamming Surge+Impulse? Well, a bit slower. Sweep is a frontal attack and damage is not that OP, but surviveability is amazing and it even has a CC. Does templar being "healer/tank" class somehow make that balanced?

Forgive me for just comparing to templar now, I don't have time atm to test the rest. I will make a DK and maybe NB(I don't know anything about NB though lol) later to compare. But what I already see just feels wrong.
My experience with other classes is limited but present, v2 DK and v3 templar. I obviously can't talk about endgame content with them, but open world, even Crag open world, I wouldn't call Surge OP compared to healing available to those classes.

And yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think all classes should have a selfheal - or none. Or it just isn't fair game.

pppontus

Magdalina wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.

I really hope they dont test balances only on PVP... or a mudcrab could balance better than developers

Balancing pvp is the only thing that matters though..... Who cares if in pve a class does slightly less dps and it takes 10 seconds more to kill a boss.

pvp is far more important than pve balance.

Me I care if in PVE I do 60 % less damage than best class now or 300 % less damage in AOE, that's for the 1.5.

Balancing PVE is really important... just have a look on sanctum best time in EU

9 DK, 2 Templar, 1 NB...

Class in 1.5 for PVE are really not balanced, and I hope that will be bether in 1.6.

After you have right, PVP is really important but PVE too, and we don't speak about 10 % less damage, now it's maybe 60 %, and that are just not acceptable

I guess you're massively exaggerating as you definitely shouldn't be pulling less than 60% of DKs unless you're doing something terribly wrong. With the best Sorc build ~10-15% less, yes, and with the standard build probably 20% less. Anyway, that has no relevance anymore for 1.6 so that's all good.

Magdalina wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

@Derra‌ so you cant weave overload light and class spells anymore?

Nope, not since 1.6.1

EDIT: Though they did buff the damage since ofc. Worth mentioning

The damage buff was nice. However it didn't make up for the loss of light attack weaving. Rumor has it further nerfs are coming next week and Overload is one of them.

In my mind this roughly translates to

"I hope there will be further nerfs as it's starting to get harder to complain about the DPS of the top ranged DPS class. The argument that only melee does more DPS is starting to make sense."

But what do I know.. I mean, I use a pet. *gasp*

No that's not what it translates too. I am the starter of this thread. I don't want further nerfs. Maybe learn to read? If you insist on taking so much skooma...go trip out somewhere else dude.

Haha, I know you started the thread. That's the joke, by now half of this thread is just complaining to complain. Not about any sort of legitimate issues. It's almost like you'd want further nerfs so that you can continue complaining.

Tankqull wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

Nybling wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

I just watched a sorc get 14k dps with a caster build. Before you ask they had 90 champion points spent.

Build and rotation pls?

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/page/4/#post-567158

The current last post in thread.

I want to see this man to do the DPS for more than 100 seconds... Impossible, the dps drops to 8k all the time...

I think you underestimate how sustainable overload is. Light Attacks w/ Overload regenerate Ultimate. After a minute I still had almost 700 ultimate left and that was with constant weaving after each crystal frags.

Nybling...not trying to be rude. However you're the same person champing pet builds along with Erlexx on Tamriel Foundry. I don't think anyone here respects you for that or that you are helping the further downfall of our class.

If you hadn't noticed. The major of the people who play this class, are seriously unhappy with it, and we are all calling for change. This thread alone is proof of that.

Overload is bugged and has been reported 101 times. It will be fixed.

As a member of Entropy Rising you have the Developers ear some what. You of all people should be using to pull out class out of the dump.

Let's be honest here, most of you wont be happy with the sorc till you have the best dps, healing, tanking, mobility in the game. Frankly I'm getting tired of people whining about pet builds just like nightblades who whined their class sucked and would always say something moronic like "they're nightBLADES not nightSTAFFS."

It gets old and your class doesn't suck so quit whining.

nope all i want is the sorc atleast on the same lvl in 1.6 as it is in 1.5 compared to other classes. and thats not the case instead of buffs we recieved nerfes all overthe place hidden behind nice formulations in the patch notes.

Sorcs are much, much better compared to other classes in 1.6 over 1.5. By far. If you don't see this, sorry..

[...]

There's no easy way of saying this but if your Sorc is bad still.. it's you that's bad, not your class. Sorry, but someone had to tell ya.

So I did some (more) testing on PTS. I won't say anything about pure group oriented dps because I haven't tested this yet so I'll leave this part out until I do.

My biggest issue was, and still is, lack of selfheal. Who told them Surge was OP? What do I do now when someone actually hits me through my shield and potion is on cooldown? I see this an issue even in group content because taking pressure off healer/being able to last some on their own was one of few things sorc had going for them. Now that's gone, delightful. But what about solo content? Hell what about just those welwa packs in Upper Crag? In before me sucking, yes I can solo them. I was just trying to get the feel of my class overall and seems I can still solo most Lower Crag and Upper Crag trash - with resto staff and pets. Because if there're more than 3 mobs, they will get me through shields and I will have to use resto staff or die. There's just NOTHING I can do to prevent that outside of resto staff(well, I think 2h has a heal somewhere? Let's call it weapon heal then). It's not like I didn't use it before but this just feels horrible now. I feel...helpless. And I don't have an issue learning to play. I have an issue opening my class trees, looking at them and realizing there's NOTHING there to help me.

For comparison, I made a v14 templar template(resisted using those 3600 points on her, just used 70 or so) and she could solo same trash packs just spamming Puncturing Sweep. One ability. It heals, it does some damage, it even CCs. Don't have to jump around, don't need to use resto staff, just charge in and spam it. If that happens to be not enough there's always BoL to help me out when something goes wrong. I was soloing Lower Crag with using ZERO weapon skills on a templar, I had everything I needed and more.

I'm not even pretending to have a full indepth analyss at this point, I will try to test more, but it's just my impression. Sorc feels absolutely horrible compared to sorc on live and templar on PTS(I'll try to test other classes later, too). Even if we do magically pull more dps than other classes in group stuations now, this isn't good enough to pay for feeling absolutely helpless out of them.

I get that, but you have 2 things to consider here:

Thou shall not tank in light armor!! This was stated by the Developers as something that was not working as intended. You will be squishy and most likely die to everything that can overpower you, I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is their intention so.. that part is what it is.

Secondly, you're comparing a "healer/tank" class to a "caster/dps" class here. In 1.5 the sorc was the easiest thing ever to grind massive packs with, and only using a single buff and a single skill. Everything would just die while you could heal yourself for more than your own max health per second. That isn't balance, that's ridiculous.

Trust me, you can still solo packs in Craglorn fairly easy, but you have to be smart about it now. Use hardened ward, a pet, some entropy, maybe healing ward? There are ways, but they force you to do more than Surge->Impulse. Imo, a very good thing. I never liked crit surge, as it just felt completely wrong to me, it was ridiculous how powerful it was. I get that you might not see this if you haven't spent that much time with other classes.. I have, and I can say that skill was wrong.

Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I don't think all classes should have a self heal.

That's okay if I'm not supposed to (easily) solo Crag trash in light armor, but why could my v14 templar in 7/7 light do this spamming Sweep just as easily as I could on live sorc spamming Surge+Impulse? Well, a bit slower. Sweep is a frontal attack and damage is not that OP, but surviveability is amazing and it even has a CC. Does templar being "healer/tank" class somehow make that balanced?

Forgive me for just comparing to templar now, I don't have time atm to test the rest. I will make a DK and maybe NB(I don't know anything about NB though lol) later to compare. But what I already see just feels wrong.
My experience with other classes is limited but present, v2 DK and v3 templar. I obviously can't talk about endgame content with them, but open world, even Crag open world, I wouldn't call Surge OP compared to healing available to those classes.

And yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think all classes should have a selfheal - or none. Or it just isn't fair game.

I can tell you how it's gonna go:

Templar, very slow but easy
DK, fast but hard
NB, slow and semi-hard
Sorc, decent speed and decently difficult

All classes DO have heals, but not instaheals which I guess is what you're asking for? Templar has a strong instaheal and a few nice hots. NB has a very bad instaheal and a decent hot. DK has an OK instaheal but it requires you to be very damaged to be worth it. Sorc has good heals but based on procs (blood magic, crit surge).

Our opinions differ I guess

Faulgor

Any class can solo Craglorn mobs easily with Brawler. Don't even need a heal with constantly renewing shields (although you get a heal with Momentum). Just tested for a few minutes, but my stamina Sorcerer template could pull 3 Spellscar groups without much of a problem. Doesn't even drop below 90% health.
Which I guess is just as OP as 1.5 Crit Surge + Impulse spam, it's just the new FOTM. So if this playstyle with "1 skill that deals damage and heals" is fair game, there's not really a reason to nerf the old Crit Surge build as much as it has been. Just looking for consistency here, not judging either way.

Puncturing Sweep Templars and Siphoning Attacks + Sap Essence Nightblades can do this as well, although I haven't tested Magicka Nightblades in 1.6 yet. Don't know anything about DKs, but they never seemed to have a problem with AoE grinding.

Fayaburn

pppontus wrote: »

Let's begin with stating that Melee does some 10-20% more DPS on average, there are certain melee builds and ranged builds that do much more/less but on a sort of average.

Actually, most of the parses that I see while running trials grant 20% more DPS to melee disregarding the mechanics of the fight.

pppontus wrote: »

Lightning Storm Atronach
Forces you to run away to a random location every x amount of seconds, where the chances are ~80% that you cannot do any damage at all for the duration if you're melee. Ranged will win this fight.

I disagree with your next post where you said that 90% of the groups will use the "safe-spot" strategy. Running around was always more demanding than good timing for Ultimates and good heal.
Melee builds with a bow offbar will be at a slight disadvantage in DPS if the safe-spot strategy is used. Granted.

pppontus wrote: »

Foundation Stone Atronach
A bit easier depending on Strategy, forces you to move around the boss which makes targeting harder, but generally you can stay close. Melee will win this fight.

100% melee fight. Almost of the tank and spank type. Melee will obviously win as you stated.

pppontus wrote: »

Varlariel
Melee is much more dangerous as it's in the concentration of where raindrops fall, meaning you will have a lot more potential oneshots to constantly avoid. Additionally you will have to kill a large amount of adds, where you will have to run from boss to add to add etc. Ranged will most likely win this fight.

Raindrops do not fall only at melee. I have no more issue surviving raindrops when playing melee than when playing ranged on this fight. You might lose 5 sec of DPS while moving to the add next to you. But Melee will still win this fight for me.

pppontus wrote: »

The Mage
Extremely unfriendly to melee, you cannot possibly have too many people in Melee here as ~5 people to close will result in all 5 getting oneshot by chain lightning. As long as you don't have too many melee, your DPS will be high, but you better hope that your ranged users can deal with the minimages. Melee will most likely win this fight.

As you said, Melee will win this fight. But all DPS can't be Melee here.

pppontus wrote: »

I could continue to do this and name more melee-unfriendly fights such as Ra-Kotu, The Warrior, Mantikora, Stonebreaker. Also completely melee-friendly fights like The Serpent. You can see a pattern though, currently about half the fights in Trials will be won by melee DPS and the others by ranged DPS.

Ra-Kotu : Melee friendly for most of the fight. Melee will still win or will be extremely close to ranged.

Both Yokeda : Melee friendly

The Warrior : Requires a bit of running. Range are at advantage.

Mantikora : Not Melee friendly, granted. Melee can be sent to kill Serpent image to help them.

Stonebreaker : Melee possible here. Avoiding one PBAOE skill is not what I call melee unfriendly. Range need to avoid cone attack.

Osara : Melee wins.

Serpent : Melee wins.

pppontus wrote: »

I can assure you that as a raid leader myself, I'll be looking to have a good balance between range and melee, especially in 1.6.

I truely hope that is the case and that the game will require to keep a nice balance between range and melee with mechanics such as the chain lightning on Mage.

However, currently on live (and I don't see why this would change with 1.6), Melee do produce a 20% superior DPS on a most of the endgame fights (and a huge majority of the rest of the content). They are able to do this even while having to avoid a few mechanics. Range needs to avoid stuff as well, PBAOE is generally the only difference in mechanics.

I will repeat what my vision is about what the difference between range and melee should be :
Melee and range should grant a very close average DPS among all the encounters. However, Range should be way squishier than Melee and therefore become high priority targets for the IA or even in the PvP field.