1.6.2 Sorc Magicka Builds Still Ruined!!! I'm Done! ZoS Read!

snipeopsub17_ESO

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

Derra

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

People are mostly discussing pve dps here.

I don´t think people are arguing about the pvp capabilities of magica sorcs atm.

Lussura

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

This made me laugh. Move along

angelyn

I have posted the following in the feedback thread, since often there is talk of melee vs ranged when sorcerers/staves/light armour is brought up.

angelyn wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_EricWrobel

Feedback on the loss of stats due to someone deciding that I am "ranged"(PVE).

There has been much talk of ranged players and melee players and how ZOS is possibly thinking it should affect your DPS/other stats (with ranged providing less of X than melee). I'm not sure if this is the approach you are going to take, however this is some feedback

The assumptions that I'm coming across is that people who use staves only play at range(and the inevitable assumption that they are probably magicka players). This isn't correct. There a skill on the Destruction staff which only works if you are in melee range-Ie Impulse.

If any magicka people use the impulse skill at all, then they will play both in melee range and at a longer range. So I don't think that a staff is strictly an "range" weapon, and surely if that's the things are going, then do bows have the same stats(ie DPS/spell power/weapon power?) as staves? ( I don't know if bows have a close range ability like impulse)

And that's assuming that magicka players use staves only..however magicka players could equip any weapon, which may require range(bow), melee(2 hand) or staff(both melee range and long range)

On a side note if I am a destruction staff user in light armor, I am doing well providing DPS and surviving at melee range. Therefore, I do not think that I should be penalised in DPS/protection etc because someone assumed that the weapon I equipped or the class that I am is ranged, and that because of that, I need to do less damage and die easier as I will never be in melee range,experiencing the same risk as someone who is "melee". Personally as a sorcerer using destro staff(both class and weapon assumed to be ranged) I spend a large (if not the majority)amount of time in melee range ie crit surge/impulse/thundering presence combination, since there are more AOE PVE than single target situations in the game (eg typical dungeon). In addition, there could be people using a ranged skill like a melee eg crit surge/lightning flood/thundering presence combination. So if you are going to base stats on dividing your players into ranged or melee, make sure that the division is accurate.(Although I don't see how that would be possible anyway)

SUMMARY
So as long as there is a skill on the weapon/class tree that requires you to be in melee range(example Impulse on Destruction staff, Thundering presence on sorc tree and any similar skills on Bow etc), I don't think it is fair that the weapon/class should be lesser in some way(IE less DPS etc) simply because it is assumed that it is a ranged only weapon/class.

With the way the weapons/classes are now, I think stats should be comparable. However if you are going down the route of"ranged players" have reductions in DPS/protection/stats etc due to the fact that they are assumed to be ranged(and have no risk), then any time they are within melee distance to an enemy they should be getting a bonus,since they are taking the same risks as someone else, and getting less stats as a reward.

And quoting from another thread -I'm still mega confused as to why a staff will provide less spell power than a sword..

Merlin13KAGL

Lussura wrote: »

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

This made me laugh. Move along

@Lussura , Cadwell definitely needs to get in on this one (the visual has MP written all over it.)

"Aha!"

"Aha!"

"Aha, aha!"

Longest

Duel

Ever.

(& what if a 3rd Sorc shows up?)

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

Shock is more cost efficient. Fragments with light attacks in between deals more dmg (edit: i have not run into sustain problems on pts at all. With atronarch mundus - if needed - and siphon spirit i could cast fragments permanent)

Interesting. That was what i was about to ask next because on a 1-2 minute engagement such a problem might not become obvious but on a trial or something, you could run into resource trouble.

Elemental Drain + Siphon Spirit meant you could never go OOM with crushing shock really.

Lussura

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Lussura wrote: »

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

This made me laugh. Move along

@Lussura , Cadwell definitely needs to get in on this one (the visual has MP written all over it.)

"Aha!"

"Aha!"

"Aha, aha!"

Longest

Duel

Ever.

(& what if a 3rd Sorc shows up?)

Like seriously stop it. I cried a little when I read that. All I could picture was someone laughing evilly behind their keyboard.

Darkintellect

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Lussura wrote: »

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

This made me laugh. Move along

@Lussura , Cadwell definitely needs to get in on this one (the visual has MP written all over it.)

"Aha!"

"Aha!"

"Aha, aha!"

Longest

Duel

Ever.

(& what if a 3rd Sorc shows up?)

If a 3rd Sorcerer shows up? It becomes a circle jerk.

Nihil

Lussura wrote: »

I think increasing the damage on Velocious Curse is the place to do this. If it's damage where increased by 15-20%. We would see a resurgence of Crystal Fragment builds in PVE. Players casting curse, to get the instant Crystal Fragments, and hard casting Crystal Fragments. Players could use Structured Entropy as a fill damage over time as well. This along with Spell Symmetry. Inner Light, and Ice comet...would make a wonderful PVE build.

Destructive touch has been buffed to be useful as a rotational skill now. It does more damage over time then entropy, so would be a good one to weave in for most mage dps classes now (keep entropy for major sorc buff). I will need to see where velicious curse falls damage wise once I get good magic armor for my sorc (made it originally a duel wield but I like to test builds), but on the template I made it did compariable damage to DoT's which I think is the way to go.

Magdalina wrote: »

DKs have Dragonblood which you imo underrate, it's amazing. Not only it heals you based on how hurt you are, it also buffs your health and stam regeneration, making it worth it even if you're NOT hurt that much.

Just going to comment that the regen from Dragons blood was nerfed in 1.6, with potions giving the same buffs the regens from dragons blood isn't as important anymore, as for the most part can easily be covered by a tri pot ( but could still be usefull if they find a different potions to use) *enters shameless plug*
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151127/1-6-buffs-and-debuffs-consolidated-lists-thoughts#latest
I have a link to a google doc with all the buffs I found (don't have vampirism) and the sources you can get them from.

Erock25

The people suggesting Curse can be our DPS filler spell got it all wrong. You can't have a 3.5 second delay spell be the filler. What do I do if I don't get a Frag proc? Just keep casting Curse for no reason?

Jahosefat

From a PVP perspective:

If shields get nerfed into the ground then it will likely be the death of mag sorcs in PVP. The mitigation provided by LA is almost nothing; it is very easy to get 1-2 shot if you get caught without a shield up in PVP. NBs are doing huge burst DPS and DK can still keep an incredible amount of pressure up through a very long fight. The only thing mag sorcs have going for them in pvp is 1.) shields 2.) bolt escape. If you take good shields away from mag sorcs in PVP they will just be free snacks for every ganking NB in the game (which is why there are some NBs crying from the roofs for shields to be nerfed).

Sorcs are in a bad place right now; nerfing the crap out of shields would leave mag sorcs with the weakest defense in the game and some of the lowest DPS.

I may turn my sorc into a "combat journalist" of cyr; just streak around, take some screenshots of fights, /wave to the zergs and then bolt away. I mean really sorc has lowest heals of any class, without shields the squishiest class, and arguably the lowest DPS now with templar changes. So what, sorc is the ultra-high-mobility-but-can't-do-anything-else class? Oh yeah, we are a pet class now and the only class that has to fill their bars with toggles and rely on bad AI to do the work for us.... great.

Lussura

Nihil wrote: »

Lussura wrote: »

I think increasing the damage on Velocious Curse is the place to do this. If it's damage where increased by 15-20%. We would see a resurgence of Crystal Fragment builds in PVE. Players casting curse, to get the instant Crystal Fragments, and hard casting Crystal Fragments. Players could use Structured Entropy as a fill damage over time as well. This along with Spell Symmetry. Inner Light, and Ice comet...would make a wonderful PVE build.

Destructive touch has been buffed to be useful as a rotational skill now. It does more damage over time then entropy, so would be a good one to weave in for most mage dps classes now (keep entropy for major sorc buff). I will need to see where velicious curse falls damage wise once I get good magic armor for my sorc (made it originally a duel wield but I like to test builds), but on the template I made it did compariable damage to DoT's which I think is the way to go.

Magdalina wrote: »

DKs have Dragonblood which you imo underrate, it's amazing. Not only it heals you based on how hurt you are, it also buffs your health and stam regeneration, making it worth it even if you're NOT hurt that much.

Just going to comment that the regen from Dragons blood was nerfed in 1.6, with potions giving the same buffs the regens from dragons blood isn't as important anymore, as for the most part can easily be covered by a tri pot ( but could still be usefull if they find a different potions to use) *enters shameless plug*
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151127/1-6-buffs-and-debuffs-consolidated-lists-thoughts#latest
I have a link to a google doc with all the buffs I found (don't have vampirism) and the sources you can get them from.

The goal however is to have a Sorcerer skill buffed to increase our classes dps. Destructive Touch anyone can use and would lead to further nerfs.

Lussura

Erock25 wrote: »

The people suggesting Curse can be our DPS filler spell got it all wrong. You can't have a 3.5 second delay spell be the filler. What do I do if I don't get a Frag proc? Just keep casting Curse for no reason?

The game has to be increased by a LARGE amount for it to be filler. Which is whats being suggested.

Lussura

Jahosefat wrote: »

From a PVP perspective:

If shields get nerfed into the ground then it will likely be the death of mag sorcs in PVP. The mitigation provided by LA is almost nothing; it is very easy to get 1-2 shot if you get caught without a shield up in PVP. NBs are doing huge burst DPS and DK can still keep an incredible amount of pressure up through a very long fight. The only thing mag sorcs have going for them in pvp is 1.) shields 2.) bolt escape. If you take good shields away from mag sorcs in PVP they will just be free snacks for every ganking NB in the game (which is why there are some NBs crying from the roofs for shields to be nerfed).

Sorcs are in a bad place right now; nerfing the crap out of shields would leave mag sorcs with the weakest defense in the game and some of the lowest DPS.

I may turn my sorc into a "combat journalist" of cyr; just streak around, take some screenshots of fights, /wave to the zergs and then bolt away. I mean really sorc has lowest heals of any class, without shields the squishiest class, and arguably the lowest DPS now with templar changes. So what, sorc is the ultra-high-mobility-but-can't-do-anything-else class? Oh yeah, we are a pet class now and the only class that has to fill their bars with toggles and rely on bad AI to do the work for us.... great.

If ZoS listens to the PVP cry babies and nerfs shields....The Sorc Mag build is dead completely. We don't have the damage to hold our own...so we are hiding behind shields.... I mean that's the honest truth.

Nihil

Lussura wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

Lussura wrote: »

I think increasing the damage on Velocious Curse is the place to do this. If it's damage where increased by 15-20%. We would see a resurgence of Crystal Fragment builds in PVE. Players casting curse, to get the instant Crystal Fragments, and hard casting Crystal Fragments. Players could use Structured Entropy as a fill damage over time as well. This along with Spell Symmetry. Inner Light, and Ice comet...would make a wonderful PVE build.

Destructive touch has been buffed to be useful as a rotational skill now. It does more damage over time then entropy, so would be a good one to weave in for most mage dps classes now (keep entropy for major sorc buff). I will need to see where velicious curse falls damage wise once I get good magic armor for my sorc (made it originally a duel wield but I like to test builds), but on the template I made it did compariable damage to DoT's which I think is the way to go.

Magdalina wrote: »

DKs have Dragonblood which you imo underrate, it's amazing. Not only it heals you based on how hurt you are, it also buffs your health and stam regeneration, making it worth it even if you're NOT hurt that much.

Just going to comment that the regen from Dragons blood was nerfed in 1.6, with potions giving the same buffs the regens from dragons blood isn't as important anymore, as for the most part can easily be covered by a tri pot ( but could still be usefull if they find a different potions to use) *enters shameless plug*
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151127/1-6-buffs-and-debuffs-consolidated-lists-thoughts#latest
I have a link to a google doc with all the buffs I found (don't have vampirism) and the sources you can get them from.

The goal however is to have a Sorcerer skill buffed to increase our classes dps. Destructive Touch anyone can use and would lead to further nerfs.

When I choose the sorc class I knew we didn't have that much for spammable skills, it was obvious in our set up of skills. We had some CC's, utility, and buffs, the class looked like it supported diverging into weapons (due to crit surge) and focused on having our abilities compliment anything we did decide to do. The balance does not need to only rely in the class skills, but how the skill synergize outside the class too. This is why I liked surge so much before, it made Sorcs basically a weapon master. We could choose any weapon and basically be great with it, and allowed us to supplement their strength with our class skills.

Even your example of buffing Velicious curse would not make our class any less reliant on outside sources, it would just give us more of a burst. We would still have to reach into the destruction staff skill line for fillers (IE destructive touch / CS) while waiting for a proc or to recast Curse. What increasing Curse does is give sorcs a huge increase to out burst potential, which is mainly a buff to PVP which is a slippery slope to walk on. Why not look at passive increases instead?

Sorc passives are all about mana management, DK's largely about Def, NB's about damage, and Templars have a little mix of everything. The problem is Sorc's mana management passives don't really set us ahead of anyone elses passives. NB's get 30 % stam regen, Templars get 4 % reduction on all skills, Dk get 5% stam given back when using a earth ability so where Is our nich. I have said this now in a couple threads, but I think with taking away our crit rate in exploitation (which did help against trash / adds), it could be nice to see something else added their. I personally would like to see spell penetration / armor penetration as this would give our pet build not to high of an increase in damage, and be situational for PVP (damage shields not having armor). It would make us a little more on par with some of the basic damage increases other classes get, but as long as it isn't huge amount wouldn't be over powering.

Jahosefat

Lussura wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

From a PVP perspective:

If shields get nerfed into the ground then it will likely be the death of mag sorcs in PVP. The mitigation provided by LA is almost nothing; it is very easy to get 1-2 shot if you get caught without a shield up in PVP. NBs are doing huge burst DPS and DK can still keep an incredible amount of pressure up through a very long fight. The only thing mag sorcs have going for them in pvp is 1.) shields 2.) bolt escape. If you take good shields away from mag sorcs in PVP they will just be free snacks for every ganking NB in the game (which is why there are some NBs crying from the roofs for shields to be nerfed).

Sorcs are in a bad place right now; nerfing the crap out of shields would leave mag sorcs with the weakest defense in the game and some of the lowest DPS.

I may turn my sorc into a "combat journalist" of cyr; just streak around, take some screenshots of fights, /wave to the zergs and then bolt away. I mean really sorc has lowest heals of any class, without shields the squishiest class, and arguably the lowest DPS now with templar changes. So what, sorc is the ultra-high-mobility-but-can't-do-anything-else class? Oh yeah, we are a pet class now and the only class that has to fill their bars with toggles and rely on bad AI to do the work for us.... great.

If ZoS listens to the PVP cry babies and nerfs shields....The Sorc Mag build is dead completely. We don't have the damage to hold our own...so we are hiding behind shields.... I mean that's the honest truth.

Totally agree. And honestly I think they people complaining are doing so to muddy the water and get unwarranted nerfs on other classes to make their lives easier (want their class to be OP and everyone else to melt in 2 seconds in a gank).

Lussura

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lussura wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

From a PVP perspective:

If shields get nerfed into the ground then it will likely be the death of mag sorcs in PVP. The mitigation provided by LA is almost nothing; it is very easy to get 1-2 shot if you get caught without a shield up in PVP. NBs are doing huge burst DPS and DK can still keep an incredible amount of pressure up through a very long fight. The only thing mag sorcs have going for them in pvp is 1.) shields 2.) bolt escape. If you take good shields away from mag sorcs in PVP they will just be free snacks for every ganking NB in the game (which is why there are some NBs crying from the roofs for shields to be nerfed).

Sorcs are in a bad place right now; nerfing the crap out of shields would leave mag sorcs with the weakest defense in the game and some of the lowest DPS.

I may turn my sorc into a "combat journalist" of cyr; just streak around, take some screenshots of fights, /wave to the zergs and then bolt away. I mean really sorc has lowest heals of any class, without shields the squishiest class, and arguably the lowest DPS now with templar changes. So what, sorc is the ultra-high-mobility-but-can't-do-anything-else class? Oh yeah, we are a pet class now and the only class that has to fill their bars with toggles and rely on bad AI to do the work for us.... great.

If ZoS listens to the PVP cry babies and nerfs shields....The Sorc Mag build is dead completely. We don't have the damage to hold our own...so we are hiding behind shields.... I mean that's the honest truth.

Totally agree. And honestly I think they people complaining are doing so to muddy the water and get unwarranted nerfs on other classes to make their lives easier (want their class to be OP and everyone else to melt in 2 seconds in a gank).

Correct you are. It's been observed for a while ZoS is nerfing and buffing based off PVP only. Meanwhile the VAST majority of players are doing PVE...

It's honestly gotten laughable. ZoS wants everyone to PVP...and frankly Cyrodiil is boring. Nothing changes as far as the play. We should have Arena and other types of pvp...

Not just a huge zerg map. That's not real pvp and frankly takes no skill. On top of this they won't limit the emperor ship. You should only be able to take Emperor once per campaign. Instead you see player passing it off and farming it...That's not pvp

snipeopsub17_ESO

Can we get some videos or raw data comparisons please, I'm not seeing a problem on my Sorcerer.

Lussura

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

Can we get some videos or raw data comparisons please, I'm not seeing a problem on my Sorcerer.

I smell a troll. Tons of images and videos already out there. Our average dps is 6-8k without pets using a magicka build. With pets "Togglemancer" we run 12-15k dps on a boss fight. Togglemancer on trash...like 6-7k

Erock25

Lussura wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

The people suggesting Curse can be our DPS filler spell got it all wrong. You can't have a 3.5 second delay spell be the filler. What do I do if I don't get a Frag proc? Just keep casting Curse for no reason?

The game has to be increased by a LARGE amount for it to be filler. Which is whats being suggested.

No. You can not have a delayed burst spell be filler no matter how hard it hits. We need a spammable spell (to fill gaps between frag procs, reapply entropy, and possibly Curse casts) which is why everyone was using Crushing Shock.

Jahosefat

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

Can we get some videos or raw data comparisons please, I'm not seeing a problem on my Sorcerer.

What do you think is good on the sorc other than the ability to run away from a fight?

snipeopsub17_ESO

You can get disciplined for calling someone a troll on the forums fyi. I'm just stating what I'm seeing on PTS. My Sorcerer is not having problems. I'm still playing with builds, but my current Shards, crushing shock with hardenend ward and streak has no issues.

Lussura

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

You can get disciplined for calling someone a troll on the forums fyi. I'm just stating what I'm seeing on PTS. My Sorcerer is not having problems. I'm still playing with builds, but my current Shards, crushing shock with hardenend ward and streak has no issues.

If you are talking about PVP I can understand. If you are talking about PVE....Thousands of players are seeing the lack of dps.

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've tested all 3 of my V14 toons (NB, Templar & DK) as magicka builds and my v12 (the 4th toon) is outperforming all of them. Hardened Ward & Streak spammed correctly makes the Sorcerer almost invincible in PvP, unless facing another Sorc (where it is a looooooong fight).

People are mostly discussing pve dps here.

I don´t think people are arguing about the pvp capabilities of magica sorcs atm.

Currently it may be decent in pvp. But in the future, it's going to be the worst.
Have you tested Sorc DPS with 3600 CP in a duel ? Basically no chance to do anything, while you get hit hard and as soon as you can't CC break anymore, you're finished.

So against a good players (who times his CC right every 5 seconds) you can maybe survive 30 seconds until you are out of stamina. You MUST kill your enemy until this, which is not possible anymore with 3600 CP.

Jahosefat

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

You can get disciplined for calling someone a troll on the forums fyi. I'm just stating what I'm seeing on PTS. My Sorcerer is not having problems. I'm still playing with builds, but my current Shards, crushing shock with hardenend ward and streak has no issues.

You can do the solo content with almost any wacky build, what people are referring to is the sorcs competitive position (against other classes) as DPS in PVE group content (because we can fill no other rolls better than any other class) and sorcs having few competitive options in PVP.

If you aren't competitive then none of this matters of course (just being able to finish solo content). That is not the discussion at hand.

Dracane

Lussura wrote: »

It's honestly gotten laughable. ZoS wants everyone to PVP...and frankly Cyrodiil is boring. Nothing changes as far as the play. We should have Arena and other types of pvp...

There is an Arena in the Imperial city.
Could be another PvE Arena, but since we already have the Dragonstar Arena, it could be a PvP Arena this time.

Lussura

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno Can we get a official statement or feedback from ZoS on the current state of Sorcerers and Magicka based builds? With this big of a thread and this many upset people...I would have thought ZoS would have responded as usual to the players concerns. You guys are normally pretty awesome about addressing concerns.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hey folks, if you're able to tune into ESO Live today, Eric Wrobel does plan on talking a bit about future plans for Sorcerers.

Jahosefat

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, if you're able to tune into ESO Live today, Eric Wrobel does plan on talking a bit about future plans for Sorcerers.

Is ESO live at 4 pm est today (just to confirm)? I was looking for the time in other threads but hadn't found it posted.

daemonios

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, if you're able to tune into ESO Live today, Eric Wrobel does plan on talking a bit about future plans for Sorcerers.

Awesome, thanks for the heads up. Hopefully this will address our concerns, which are mainly about end-game PvE content, not PvP.