About Shield Stacking

Varicite

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not class exclusive, except that one skill, and it's not as if other classes don't have a shield option in their skill lines.

NBs.

Also, Hardened Ward actually is exclusive, as it's the only class shield that scales from Magicka. Not that I personally take issue w/ that, but others do.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I haven't complained about the 80% dodge chance the NB I was running with on PTS had, but I'm sure that's reasonable, cause he was only using one shield...

80%, huh? Considering the Major buffs don't stack, that's an interesting number to have reached w/out bugs being involved. Would be interested in knowing how he accomplished this.

But hey, he doesn't have the luxury of using a class shield anyway and his unique class defensive ability still fails to work a lot of the time. Not that 80% dodge rate is okay in any case.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The no Ult when blocking affects everyone trying to hit anyone with any shield.

I'm not even sure what the point of this sentence is. Nobody gets Ult from shielded opponents, so it's okay?

No, it's not.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Damage should hit the shield. DoTs should hit the shield.

This is literally the only thing that you wrote that I can agree w/, lol.

Snit

I think everyone agrees that DoT's should hit shields, and that shields should not block ultimate generation.

AriBoh

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Shields have always taken full, unmitigated damage, so while you may not be able to crit a shield, you're also not having any of your crits reduced by armor, spell resist, specific resist, blocks, or passives.

Crits that cant hit arent reduced..... ok....

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Regarding resource pool, Every V14 out there has the same 62 skillpoints and the same number of available gear slots (translating to the same options for enchants.)

But my Templar or DK has to split those 62 at least 2 ways to get a decent shield.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There have been plenty of blatant issues that have been allowed to slide by. Calling this one abusive is a stretch.

Thats your opinion.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not class exclusive, except that one skill, and it's not as if other classes don't have a shield option in their skill lines.

A shield based on magicka is exclusive to sorcs. And my NB needs to go outside class skills for any kind of shield.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I haven't complained about the 80% dodge chance the NB I was running with on PTS had, but I'm sure that's reasonable, cause he was only using one shield...

IF 80% dodge is possible then its OP too, the 2nd system abuse you seem to be using.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Damage should hit the shield. DoTs should hit the shield. The no Ult when blocking affects everyone trying to hit anyone with any shield.

But the ult not charging is benefiting sorc with easy huge shield spam the most.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If things are really broken, report them and have them fixed. Don't select the information that only includes part of the overall situation and not expect feedback.

I have and I am.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Have yet to see video of unkillable classes anywhere. You don't get to be upset because it's no longer 3 arrows from 40m and done.

Just wait and soon the Epeen strokers will be flooding the alliance wars forum with cut and paste videos.

Gorthax

DDuke wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

Stacking shields is not the problem. If you remove shield stacking, then people will slot just 1 shield, like hardened ward and spam that repeatedly. With high magicka and high magicka regen, the same problem will remain. Shields should remain stackable. The problem here is that these shields should not be scaling off magicka, which is the same stat sorcs are using to min max their dps. There needs to be tradeoffs.

Hey Sabre my favorite prey
This idea is stupid in my opinion. Templar shields can be scaled of health, but not the Sorcerer shield O.o Templars are meant to be very tanky. (health)
But Sorcs are meant to use magic and making their shield a health scaled shield is just stupid.

Shield stacking IS an issue and this must be solved. I would even dare to say, that they should slightly increase the strenght of single shields (but it's not a must) reducing shield strenght and increasing the costs is a mistake. Believe me: as soon as all thee shield stackers can't stack 1 shield+ healing ward, everything is going to be fine.

shield stacking isnt an issue. People needed to find ways around the person stacking is the issue. Someone compared it to the op broken permablockcasting la using DK sword and shield combo.....its nothing like that.

Someone who focused only on magicka and reduced spell cost has a HUGE flaw that people seem to just ignore. CC! Freaking use it my god. CC them, watch them break out or dodge roll. They get to do it, twice MAYBE three times. No stamina means they are at the mercy of you dealing damage to them, which means broken shields which means no recasting which means dead sorc since they are glass cannon.

This seriously is a L2P issue...... I can agree that light attacks on the shield SHOULD restore ultimate, DoTs should work but ONLY drain the shield NOT the health since it is a damage shield and a DoT IS damage.

Start trying CC out.......promise you will destroy the sorcs. Unless you suck then you can sit here and cry for nerfs. If you cc them with no stamina and you still cant break through their shields and kill them in the time it takes for your cc to wear off then reassess your gear and dps.

Not trying to flame anyone so please dont take it that way. People hate shield stacking but ignore the fact that it literally has a HUGE downside. I mean come on people lol

You do that on live, and every single CC will get broken faster than you can burst someone down. It simply doesn't work (especially when your opponent has to waste 0 stamina on blocking etc).

There are no downsides to shield spam as long as it remains stronger & more cost efficient than damaging abilities.

are you serious? You have to be trolling.......that or you did not pay attention to what I said nor how things work on 1.6 You must be trolling

I mean seriously @DDuke‌ unless you focus on block cost mitigation you have ZERO chance of blocking more than 4 attacks OR dodge rolling more than 3 times OR breaking out of cc more than 3 times. Someone focusing ONLY on magicka increase has ZERO interest in stamina which is the weakness EVERYONE can exploit to their advantage.......they just choose not to and then come complain.

I am sorry but you have to be trolling here. Or you really have no clue what you are talking about? Or maybe you misunderstood what I was saying even though it is pretty clear what I was saying

Varicite

Gorthax wrote: »

are you serious? You have to be trolling.......that or you did not pay attention to what I said nor how things work on 1.6 You must be trolling

Use CC.

How is that different than what you'd do whether your opponent was using a shield or not?

How is that a "counter"?

It isn't. Everybody in Cyrodiil is prepared to be CC'd and deal w/ it in one way or another, or they probably shouldn't be PvP'ing at all.

PS) Everybody has access to CC and a CC break. Not everybody has access to class shields.

If shield stacking is going to be the new PvP meta, then everybody should have equal access to be able to do it, and REAL counters should be put in place to negate it.

/shrug

DDuke

Gorthax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

Stacking shields is not the problem. If you remove shield stacking, then people will slot just 1 shield, like hardened ward and spam that repeatedly. With high magicka and high magicka regen, the same problem will remain. Shields should remain stackable. The problem here is that these shields should not be scaling off magicka, which is the same stat sorcs are using to min max their dps. There needs to be tradeoffs.

Hey Sabre my favorite prey
This idea is stupid in my opinion. Templar shields can be scaled of health, but not the Sorcerer shield O.o Templars are meant to be very tanky. (health)
But Sorcs are meant to use magic and making their shield a health scaled shield is just stupid.

Shield stacking IS an issue and this must be solved. I would even dare to say, that they should slightly increase the strenght of single shields (but it's not a must) reducing shield strenght and increasing the costs is a mistake. Believe me: as soon as all thee shield stackers can't stack 1 shield+ healing ward, everything is going to be fine.

shield stacking isnt an issue. People needed to find ways around the person stacking is the issue. Someone compared it to the op broken permablockcasting la using DK sword and shield combo.....its nothing like that.

Someone who focused only on magicka and reduced spell cost has a HUGE flaw that people seem to just ignore. CC! Freaking use it my god. CC them, watch them break out or dodge roll. They get to do it, twice MAYBE three times. No stamina means they are at the mercy of you dealing damage to them, which means broken shields which means no recasting which means dead sorc since they are glass cannon.

This seriously is a L2P issue...... I can agree that light attacks on the shield SHOULD restore ultimate, DoTs should work but ONLY drain the shield NOT the health since it is a damage shield and a DoT IS damage.

Start trying CC out.......promise you will destroy the sorcs. Unless you suck then you can sit here and cry for nerfs. If you cc them with no stamina and you still cant break through their shields and kill them in the time it takes for your cc to wear off then reassess your gear and dps.

Not trying to flame anyone so please dont take it that way. People hate shield stacking but ignore the fact that it literally has a HUGE downside. I mean come on people lol

You do that on live, and every single CC will get broken faster than you can burst someone down. It simply doesn't work (especially when your opponent has to waste 0 stamina on blocking etc).

There are no downsides to shield spam as long as it remains stronger & more cost efficient than damaging abilities.

are you serious? You have to be trolling.......that or you did not pay attention to what I said nor how things work on 1.6 You must be trolling

Am I?

You say CC, I say CC doesnt solve anything (just like it doesnt on live).

I know it costs more in PTS, but so does your own CC break, dodge, block etc, which you will need (since opponent as 2-3 seconds to throw CCs at you between shields).

Also I can guarantee you, there will be people who break every single CC you throw at them, no matter how many times you do it, just like on live.

And don't get me started on Immovable...


So we're back in square one, genius solution.

And no, it's not a "problem with my dps" if I can't destroy shields faster than they're cast, no one can (especially if you don't want to run out of magicka/stamina).

Xsorus

Before the nerf shield stacking (even though I view it as overpowered right now)

They should fix the issues present, Ult Gain not proccing, Dots not ticcing, Weapon Enchant status effects not going off ect ect...

Those issues could make Shield Stacking a lot less powerful...and end up balancing them in the end.

Varicite

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Before the nerf shield stacking (even though I view it as overpowered right now)

They should fix the issues present, Ult Gain not proccing, Dots not ticcing, Weapon Enchant status effects not going off ect ect...

Those issues could make Shield Stacking a lot less powerful...and end up balancing them in the end.

I will concede this point. : )

Derra

Once they "fix" shields - given the amount of crying on the forums i take they will do something about them (best solution imho would still be to make them not stackable) - they will become useless in open world pvp. People will be driven to stealth instagib 2h and bow gameplay.
Thats going to be lots of fun...

Edit: With Esos resource system you´re either going to have unkillable chars in 1v1 (if that is what the player aims for) or you will exclude certain classes from doing things solo.
A resource based open char system can not be balanced for 1v1 and grp pvp.

Thejollygreenone

Derra wrote: »

Once they "fix" shields - given the amount of crying on the forums i take they will do something about them (best solution imho would still be to make them not stackable) - they will become useless in open world pvp. People will be driven to stealth instagib 2h and bow gameplay.
Thats going to be lots of fun...

Edit: With Esos resource system you´re either going to have unkillable chars in 1v1 (if that is what the player aims for) or you will exclude certain classes from doing things solo.
A resource based open char system can not be balanced for 1v1 and grp pvp.

Regarding consequences to 'fixing' shields you and many others bring up:

If that indeed happens, which sounds logical to me, more balance changes will be made to negate the new problems that come up, and then a different inherent problem will make itself known since the last most overpowered thing was fixed which will in turn have to be fixed, and changes will be made to negate that which will make apparent more problems, etc. (Sorry for the run-on, provin a point here )

This is mmo balance, as ugly as it is. You squash problems and different ones arise, but there tends to at least be some semblance of progress along the way.

EDIT: for typos

Voltos

I think you're spot on with this. I agree 100%. Here's to hoping the devs take this into consideration and make some changes.

Merlin13KAGL

Let's try this one more time, one at a time:
#1 All classes do not have a shield:

Varicite wrote: »

NBs.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

A shield based on magicka is exclusive to sorcs. And my NB needs to go outside class skills for any kind of shield.

Mirage offers 20% dodge chance and increased physical resistance. Hate to break it to you, but that's a shield.

#2 Nothing is class exclusive unless it's class exclusive:

Varicite wrote: »

Also, Hardened Ward actually is exclusive, as it's the only class shield that scales from Magicka. Not that I personally take issue w/ that, but others do.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

A shield based on magicka is exclusive to sorcs.

It's almost like you're saying:

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not class exclusive, except that one skill, and it's not as if other classes don't have a shield option in their skill lines.

#3 80% dodge chance is wrong. Wrong things are bad. Bad things should get fixed:

Varicite wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I haven't complained about the 80% dodge chance the NB I was running with on PTS had, but I'm sure that's reasonable, cause he was only using one shield...

80%, huh? Considering the Major buffs don't stack, that's an interesting number to have reached w/out bugs being involved. Would be interested in knowing how he accomplished this.

But hey, he doesn't have the luxury of using a class shield anyway and his unique class defensive ability still fails to work a lot of the time. Not that 80% dodge rate is okay in any case.

Varicite, I'm sorry NB's unique class defensive ability doesn't work sometimes, but Sorc's didn't cause this.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

IF 80% dodge is possible then its OP too, the 2nd system abuse you seem to be using.

1. It's absolutely wrong. I don't have the specifics and would not post them here for obvious reasons.
2. It was reported by

   the NB I was running with

3. It should, and I suspect will get fixed.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

IF 80% dodge is possible then its OP too, the 2nd system abuse you seem to be using.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If things are really broken, report them and have them fixed. Don't select the information that only includes part of the overall situation and not expect feedback.

I have and I am.

Me too, actually READ the above. Thanks for the assumption though @darkknightfkb16_ESO‌ about how you think I and "the NB I was running with" play.

#4 Not getting Ult from shielded enemies is also not Sorc exclusive:

Varicite wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The no Ult when blocking affects everyone trying to hit anyone with any shield.

I'm not even sure what the point of this sentence is. Nobody gets Ult from shielded opponents, so it's okay?

No, it's not.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

But the ult not charging is benefiting sorc with easy huge shield spam the most.

Varicite, the point is, that it's not just magic shields that preclude Ult generation - it's any shield, it affects every class, and where exactly did I say it was ok? Think that does it for you, @Varicite , the rest is for darkknightfkb16_ESO‌.

How the hell does it "benefit sorcs the most??" If no one's generating ULT, no one's dropping ULTs. (That means Sorcs aren't dropping Ults either.)

#5 Shields eat FULL damage always. Crit doesn't do full damage:

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Shields have always taken full, unmitigated damage, so while you may not be able to crit a shield, you're also not having any of your crits reduced by armor, spell resist, specific resist, blocks, or passives.

Crits that cant hit arent reduced..... ok....

• Crits crit.
• Crits do crit damage, less mitigation.
• Crits don't damage shields.
• Damage damages shields.
• Shields still eat damage - full, unmitigated damage.
  • No dodge
  • No block
  • No passives
  • No resistance
  • No armor
  • No anything.
• Not crit damage less mitigation can be just as high for a unmitigating shield as unshielded mitigated crit damage would be to a player.
• End result - shields are breakable. The counter for shields is damage.

#6 Sorc's didn't break your shield:

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Regarding resource pool, Every V14 out there has the same 62 skillpoints and the same number of available gear slots (translating to the same options for enchants.)

But my Templar or DK has to split those 62 at least 2 ways to get a decent shield.

Really? Sun shield gives you 30% of your health and costs <4k Magicka.

Igneous doesn't do too bad either. Also costs Magicka.

Neither costs 31 Attribute points' worth, though, so I'm guessing they could be cast a time or two, even with 0 points in Magicka.

Let's entertain the other half of the Templar/DK argument:

DK gets a pretty kicker self heal.

Do I even need to mention the templar self healheals?

Those surely have to be exploits, or maybe just class specific bonuses?

Perhaps you can point out the functional self heal the Sorc line has? No? Odd.

Oh, and for the record, unlike Sun Shield, Hardened doesn't increase based on hits and also doesn't do damage to enemies. It's almost like it's a tradeoff?

#7 Attribute points affect your character build:

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Regarding resource pool, Every V14 out there has the same 62 skillpoints and the same number of available gear slots (translating to the same options for enchants.)

But my Templar or DK has to split those 62 at least 2 ways to get a decent shield.

And you believe Sorc's and NB's can sink points into only one stat without any side effect or consequence. Right.

Place your points, it changes things. That's how it's supposed to work. (Placing points isn't an exploit, and yes, I place my attribute points.)

#8 Just because you can't figure it out, doesn't make it broken:

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There have been plenty of blatant issues that have been allowed to slide by. Calling this one abusive is a stretch.

Thats your opinion.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Have yet to see video of unkillable classes anywhere. You don't get to be upset because it's no longer 3 arrows from 40m and done.

Just wait and soon the Epeen strokers will be flooding the alliance wars forum with cut and paste videos.

Mine and a lot of other people's, as well. If it is the horrible thing that creates invincibility, I'm sure it will get remedied.

It may even need adjusting. Calling it abusive because you have to work for your kills. Well, that's priceless.

If you don't like the setup of your class or skills, then complain to have them adjust up. Don't whine to have others adjusted down.

Does it need adjusting? maybe. Is it broken? **** no.

Fix the heal we don't have, and you'll probably not have to worry about a second shield you can currently have.

Derra

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Once they "fix" shields - given the amount of crying on the forums i take they will do something about them (best solution imho would still be to make them not stackable) - they will become useless in open world pvp. People will be driven to stealth instagib 2h and bow gameplay.
Thats going to be lots of fun...

Edit: With Esos resource system you´re either going to have unkillable chars in 1v1 (if that is what the player aims for) or you will exclude certain classes from doing things solo.
A resource based open char system can not be balanced for 1v1 and grp pvp.

Regarding consequences to 'fixing' shields you and many others bring up:

If that indeed happens, which sounds logical to me, more balance changes will be made to negate the new problems that come up, and then a different inherent problem will make itself known since the last most overpowered thing was fixed which will in turn have to be fixed, and changes will be made to negate that which will make apparent more problems, etc. (Sorry for the run-on, provin a point here )

This is mmo balance, as ugly as it is. You squash problems and different ones arise, but there tends to at least be some semblance of progress along the way.

EDIT: for typos

No point in changing something when the problems the nerf will create are obvious and of equal importance to the things you´re trying to fix - eh?
A (severe) nerf to shields without compensation would eliminate light armor Templar, DK and Sorc from the game.

Not stackable would be reasonable.

Varicite

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Mirage offers 20% dodge chance and increased physical resistance. Hate to break it to you, but that's a shield.

No. No, it's not.

20% dodge chance is absolutely NOTHING like 100% chance to reliably mitigate 100% of damage done to you for a set amount, extendable at will.

Just stop.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's almost like you're saying:It's not class exclusive, except that one skill, and it's not as if other classes don't have a shield option in their skill lines.

It's almost like I'm saying that if only 1 class has it, then it's exclusive to that class. Crazy. If Sorcs have a Magicka-based shield and nobody else does, then that makes it exclusive to that class. I didn't think this was so hard to follow.

And yes, I mentioned NBs, because you said it's not as if other classes don't have a shield option in their skill lines.

Again, Mirage is not even remotely close to a shield. If you honestly can't understand the difference between these, there's probably not much I can do to enlighten you in a post.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

[*] It's absolutely wrong. I don't have the specifics and would not post them here for obvious reasons.

Yes, because we wouldn't want more than 1 person to test and report this issue BEFORE it goes live. That would just be nonsense.

PTS is obviously for finding the coolest new exploits and sweeping them under the rug for as long as possible, right?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

#4 Not getting Ult from shielded enemies is also not Sorc exclusive:

And I don't believe that anybody ever said that it was. This thread is about shields in general.

That's why it's titled "About Shield Stacking", and not "About Sorcerers Only".

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Varicite, the point is, that it's not just magic shields that preclude Ult generation - it's any shield, it affects every class, and where exactly did I say it was ok?

You didn't, and I clearly said that I had no idea why you were even mentioning it. I still don't. We all know that shields block Ult generation, that's why it's being complained about.

Maybe if you weren't so defensive over "Onoes, please don't nerf my Sorc!" you could take part in some form of meaningful conversation about broken shielding mechanics w/ the rest of us.

PS) I have 2 VR Sorcs, 3 NBs, and a DK. This isn't about "my class vs your class" (in truth, your class IS my class), it's about trying to fix something that's become unbalanced before it goes live.

You keep saying "I'm sure it will get fixed". Things don't just magically get fixed.

The squeaky wheel gets greased, so I'm squeaking away. Whether the devs agree w/ me or not, the more noise we make about it, the more likely they are to at least consider the issue.

Ace_SiN

Morvul wrote: »

(and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1...

This is what I would like to stop reading about.. People 1v1 duel all day and then come here and complain about balance... It's not possible for ESO to EVER be balanced around 1v1 without a complete rework to combat. The only game that achieves perfect balance for 1v1 are FPS games. Since a win is nearly 100% reliant on player skill(although map design can favor one side over the other).

This game can only be balanced around group play. I think a 3v3 or 5v5 is a good environment to aim for "balanced" gameplay. Personally I would like to see more group fight vids and feedback, less 1v1 dueling results.

Varicite

Ace_SiN wrote: »

This is what I would like to stop reading about.. People 1v1 duel all day and then come here and complain about balance... It's not possible for ESO to EVER be balanced around 1v1 without a complete rework to combat. The only game that achieves perfect balance for 1v1 are FPS games. Since a win is nearly 100% reliant on player skill(although map design can favor one side over the other).

This game can only be balanced around group play. I think a 3v3 or 5v5 is a good environment to aim for "balanced" gameplay. Personally I would like to see more group fight vids and feedback, less 1v1 dueling results.

I honestly do agree w/ this sentiment.

Unfortunately, for testing purposes, it's just far easier to get a controlled test environment between 2 players. Less X factors that way.

Yes, shields melt under focus fire in a group situation. But you probably also have multiple healers / peelers in a group situation as well, etc.

Not sure if you'd be able to ever get meaningful results outside of a ton of data from seasoned PvPers who are used to working in a group, a'la Arena type combat.

That's... just not going to happen on the PTS, and not likely on live either.

Snit

Derra wrote: »

Not stackable would be reasonable.

Agreed. Also, shields should not prevent the generation of ultimate. That's a pretty significant advantage, and it's one thing ZOS can fix for PvP that won't have the (usual) side-effects on PvE.

Xsorus

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

(and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1...

This is what I would like to stop reading about.. People 1v1 duel all day and then come here and complain about balance... It's not possible for ESO to EVER be balanced around 1v1 without a complete rework to combat. The only game that achieves perfect balance for 1v1 are FPS games. Since a win is nearly 100% reliant on player skill(although map design can favor one side over the other).

This game can only be balanced around group play. I think a 3v3 or 5v5 is a good environment to aim for "balanced" gameplay. Personally I would like to see more group fight vids and feedback, less 1v1 dueling results.

This is usually what overpowered classes say when they are overpowered. It's horseshit and everyone knows it

Thejollygreenone

Derra wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Once they "fix" shields - given the amount of crying on the forums i take they will do something about them (best solution imho would still be to make them not stackable) - they will become useless in open world pvp. People will be driven to stealth instagib 2h and bow gameplay.
Thats going to be lots of fun...

Edit: With Esos resource system you´re either going to have unkillable chars in 1v1 (if that is what the player aims for) or you will exclude certain classes from doing things solo.
A resource based open char system can not be balanced for 1v1 and grp pvp.

Regarding consequences to 'fixing' shields you and many others bring up:

If that indeed happens, which sounds logical to me, more balance changes will be made to negate the new problems that come up, and then a different inherent problem will make itself known since the last most overpowered thing was fixed which will in turn have to be fixed, and changes will be made to negate that which will make apparent more problems, etc. (Sorry for the run-on, provin a point here )

This is mmo balance, as ugly as it is. You squash problems and different ones arise, but there tends to at least be some semblance of progress along the way.

EDIT: for typos

No point in changing something when the problems the nerf will create are obvious and of equal importance to the things you´re trying to fix - eh?
A (severe) nerf to shields without compensation would eliminate light armor Templar, DK and Sorc from the game.

Not stackable would be reasonable.

Not sure if you're implying the statement I've bolded is my position or your position, I know it's not mine. The ideal that I was thinking of would be that the new problems being brought after fixing the old are less severe than the last, therefore always moving towards a less imbalanced game.

As to the rest of your post:

Indeed a (severe) nerf to shields without compensation would eliminate many builds.

That's why my entire position on the matter is to change the importance/prevalence of shields while being extra careful to make compensations where they're due so exactly what you bring up doesn't happen.

And furthermore in such a way so that it doesn't create another only-option for that combat archetype.

EDIT: For clarity

AriBoh

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Mirage offers 20% dodge chance and increased physical resistance. Hate to break it to you, but that's a shield.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Really? Sun shield gives you 30% of your health and costs <4k Magicka.

And I need to put some of those precious 62 points into my health to get anywhere near as decent a shield as you, around 40-50 just to get to 27k (with the current burst dps might as well be 5k) in cyrodil which only gives me an 8k shield that lasts 6 seconds, you get to put your points into your dps stat and stay safe behind one that lasts 20 seconds, shields your pet too if you have one and you have a full resource pool to draw on to stack another shield or even a 3rd.

Ace_SiN

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

This is usually what overpowered classes say when they are overpowered. It's horseshit and everyone knows it

This is what wannabe PvPers say that have no clue about competitive play.

If you think 1v1 will ever be balanced for this type of game, then you're fooling yourself. Winning a fight is nowhere near 100% player skill in ESO. They would have to remove the tab target combat first. A smart player always have a duel build, small scale build, and a "zerg" build for any game that offers some form of open world pvp. Why? What's great or "OP" for a duel is not always case in any other situation.

My point is we can't start nerfing everything to the ground without seeing how it affects most "real world" situations. Most encounters rarely reflect a 1v1 duel scenario. If shield stacking completely ruins the small scale, then we can see how to properly nerf it. Otherwise there's a huge risk of making shields practically useless for any situation outside of a 1v1 duel.

Sharee

Ace_SiN wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

This is usually what overpowered classes say when they are overpowered. It's horseshit and everyone knows it

This is what wannabe PvPers say that have no clue about competitive play.

If you think 1v1 will ever be balanced for this type of game, then you're fooling yourself. Winning a fight is nowhere near 100% player skill in ESO. They would have to remove the tab target combat first. A smart player always have a duel build, small scale build, and a "zerg" build for any game that offers some form of open world pvp. Why? What's great or "OP" for a duel is not always case in any other situation.

My point is we can't start nerfing everything to the ground without seeing how it affects most "real world" situations. Most encounters rarely reflect a 1v1 duel scenario. If shield stacking completely ruins the small scale, then we can see how to properly nerf it. Otherwise there's a huge risk of making shields practically useless for any situation outside of a 1v1 duel.

"I am not overpowered, because i can still die when focused by multiple people at once"


...right.

Ace_SiN

Sharee wrote: »

"I am not overpowered, because i can still die when focused by multiple people at once"


...right.

Lmao another person trying to post "witty" comments. You still don't get that not being "OP" or amazing outside of a 1v1 duel means the skill is not OP overall, do you? Which means it doesn't need a heavy nerf if the goal is to achieve 1v1 balance(without affecting the other areas that it's currently balanced in). Also, it means, that outside of your PTS duels, you will more than likely never be affected by shield stacking enough to really care. It completely went over your head though I'm sure...

I'll repeat again... What's OP in a 1v1 duel is not always the case in any other scenario. If the goal here is to achieve "balance", then you have to know how it is really affecting the game before you blindly swing the nerf bat based solely on 1v1 duel results.

Xsorus

Ace_SiN wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

This is usually what overpowered classes say when they are overpowered. It's horseshit and everyone knows it

This is what wannabe PvPers say that have no clue about competitive play.

If you think 1v1 will ever be balanced for this type of game, then you're fooling yourself. Winning a fight is nowhere near 100% player skill in ESO. They would have to remove the tab target combat first. A smart player always have a duel build, small scale build, and a "zerg" build for any game that offers some form of open world pvp. Why? What's great or "OP" for a duel is not always case in any other situation.

My point is we can't start nerfing everything to the ground without seeing how it affects most "real world" situations. Most encounters rarely reflect a 1v1 duel scenario. If shield stacking completely ruins the small scale, then we can see how to properly nerf it. Otherwise there's a huge risk of making shields practically useless for any situation outside of a 1v1 duel.

The fact that you can't figure out that while 1v1 will never be fully balanced, you can actually make it somewhat reasonably balanced without having super overpowered present. Right now shields are super overpowered... Anyone who's not a fool sorc knows this... They need to fix the issues present though before they nerf shields, but pretending shields are fine because you died to multiple people hitting you once is moronic and hilariously bad logic.

C0pp3rhead

If you ask me, the problem of shield stacking stems from a rather restrictive meta-game as deployed by ZOS. In other words, If you wear light armor, you will have magicka, which fuels your shield. If you wear heavy armor, you will have health and damage reduction, so you won't need a shield. If you wear light armor... well, you're somewhere in the middle, and hopefully you can get some decent DPS.

If you ask me, there should be dispel and decrease armor/spell resist effects, which would level the playing field and create a much more dynamic meta-game. This would also necessitate silence spells to prevent your shield from being stripped. So... why don't they have spellcrafting yet?

Ace_SiN

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The fact that you can't figure out that while 1v1 will never be fully balanced, you can actually make it somewhat reasonably balanced without having super overpowered present. Right now shields are super overpowered... Anyone who's not a fool sorc knows this... They need to fix the issues present though before they nerf shields, but pretending shields are fine because you died to multiple people hitting you once is moronic and hilariously bad logic.

You can also make 1v1 reasonably balanced without blindly nerfing skills, based only on 1v1 duel results. I've never once said "shields are fine". That's you blindly assuming I mean one thing, when I've made my stand clear multiple times already.

Derra

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

This is usually what overpowered classes say when they are overpowered. It's horseshit and everyone knows it

This is what wannabe PvPers say that have no clue about competitive play.

If you think 1v1 will ever be balanced for this type of game, then you're fooling yourself. Winning a fight is nowhere near 100% player skill in ESO. They would have to remove the tab target combat first. A smart player always have a duel build, small scale build, and a "zerg" build for any game that offers some form of open world pvp. Why? What's great or "OP" for a duel is not always case in any other situation.

My point is we can't start nerfing everything to the ground without seeing how it affects most "real world" situations. Most encounters rarely reflect a 1v1 duel scenario. If shield stacking completely ruins the small scale, then we can see how to properly nerf it. Otherwise there's a huge risk of making shields practically useless for any situation outside of a 1v1 duel.

The fact that you can't figure out that while 1v1 will never be fully balanced, you can actually make it somewhat reasonably balanced without having super overpowered present. Right now shields are super overpowered... Anyone who's not a fool sorc knows this... They need to fix the issues present though before they nerf shields, but pretending shields are fine because you died to multiple people hitting you once is moronic and hilariously bad logic.

Right now you can´t take away the shields from a sorc without compensating for it. Yes it is overpowered in 1v1 but it has a reasonable balance in coordinated grp setups.

If you nerf the shield you take away the only reliable defense the class has at the moment.
Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer - if you want to actually fight teleport has only repositioning and cc value and not defense. Ball lightning only works against spells and streak is esentially free cc immunity.
How do you want sorcs to stay alive?

Solanum

Shields should scale off health.

This way a player can choose between having decent survivability and somewhat limited damage potential. Or they could go for full glass cannon mode, playing a high risk but high damage dealing character.

It's the same choice stamina characters have to make really.

Derra

Solanum wrote: »

Shields should scale off health.

This way a player can choose between having decent survivability and somewhat limited damage potential. Or they could go for full glass cannon mode, playing a high risk but high damage dealing character.

It's the same choice stamina characters have to make really.

Except that stamina characters have not to make this decision as their damage mitigation comes from dodgeroll and not shields.
Problem most stamina players have is they are to stupid to dodge and shields are a million times easier to use. A good dodgeroll will prevent more dmg than a shield though (Edit: Since most players are to dumb to understand this - dodging 8k CF + 5k CS + 1.3 light attack is more than shields can do for you atm).

Edit: And stamina chars got a super effective heal added that is not tied to specific weapon use! I admit that it takes a little effort to get.

AriBoh

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.