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About Shield Stacking
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Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players..."
On PTS. That's not a representative sample of the overall player base. And again, you're only thinking of Cyrodil.
I suspect that the sorcs you see handling 1v5's just fine are somehow finding five people who between them brought no CC's, or who lack the patience to make that sorc run through his tiny stamina pool.
Still, nobody wants unkillable anythings. I don't want to see sorcs become like the orginal version of batswarming vampire DK's, either.
I do think shields shouldn't stack, and that they shouldn't block ultimates or be immune to DoT's. None of that stuff makes sense. But radical solutions like "Tie to them health" ignore the fact that magicka sorcs are really effing squishy without shields, and they don't have such great sustained DPS that they can pour points into health and still compete.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade2 -
Ace_SiN✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »There, that wasn't so hard.
You make a post about people dueling 1v1 all the day and complaing about balance, say its not possible to be balanced, then proceed to say that we should balance around 3v3 and 5v5 gameplay....in a post about a shield stacking, Then you make another post right after that talking how people shouldn't blindly nerf things just because it effects 1v1 duels.
Exactly.. Which is nothing like anything you stated that I posted in your previous posts.. Whether it's a thread QQing about shield stacking or a future thread QQing about the new OP 1v1 skill as a result, this game needs to be balanced around group play. 3v3 or 5v5 are usually where most devs try to achieve "perfect" balance.
There are far too many limitations and "hand holding" to achieve perfect 1v1 balance in ESO. Remove the tab target and give us access to more abilities, then it would have a better shot at it(that's why Darkfall Online was the only MMORPG in recent memory that was balanced for 1v1). Until that happens, there will always be a dominate skill that shines in a 1v1 scenario.xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »I think most people want the bugs fixed, and when that's done if they're still overpowered, scale them off HP like they should be in the first place.
Semantics aside, I agree with this. Again, my original statement was more about the posts just saying to hard nerf shields, based on their 1v1 experience.
King of Beasts0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »There, that wasn't so hard.
You make a post about people dueling 1v1 all the day and complaing about balance, say its not possible to be balanced, then proceed to say that we should balance around 3v3 and 5v5 gameplay....in a post about a shield stacking, Then you make another post right after that talking how people shouldn't blindly nerf things just because it effects 1v1 duels.
Exactly.. Which is nothing like anything you stated that I posted in your previous posts.. Whether it's a thread QQing about shield stacking or a future thread QQing about the new OP 1v1 skill as a result, this game needs to be balanced around group play. 3v3 or 5v5 are usually where most devs try to achieve "perfect" balance.
There are far too many limitations and "hand holding" to achieve perfect 1v1 balance in ESO. Remove the tab target and give us access to more abilities, then it would have a better shot at it(that's why Darkfall Online was the only MMORPG in recent memory that was balanced for 1v1). Until that happens, there will always be a dominate skill that shines in a 1v1 scenario.xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »I think most people want the bugs fixed, and when that's done if they're still overpowered, scale them off HP like they should be in the first place.
Semantics aside, I agree with this. Again, my original statement was more about the posts just saying to hard nerf shields, based on their 1v1 experience.
In a game with multiple forms of PvP in a large scale setting, you don't balance the game around group play while ignoring 1v1. That's just silly and a cop out to the problem at hand. In fact I can't think of a single Massive Scale MMO that ever took that approach, be it DAOC/WAR/GW2.
While you'll never get perfect balance like i said, leaving in overpowered crap like shields right now just because you think its fine in larger scale pvp is just downright silly.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think there's anything new to be said here. ZOS has already said they're "looking at shield stacking." We'll see the results soon. We know how this usually goes.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer
DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.
DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...
Fair enough.
Flying Blades in no way is remotely close to Crushing Shock..Don't let him fool you.
And Chains will never be a viable Gap Closer in this game.
Chains is bugged. Should they get it to work it seems fine as a gap closer for me?
Flying blade has a 50% snare and deals slightly more damage than crushing shock. Flying Blade:5100 dmg at 27k stam and 2400 weapon power compared to Crushing shock: 4800 dmg @ 27k mag 2400 spellpower.
How is that not close or comparable @xsorusb14_ESO?
Because you can weave Crushing Shock with Light Attacks, and any number of other abilities.
Wow. You are the one in a million kind of special person
.
So you think a Dual Wielder can go against a crushing Shock user in a range fight and win? Lets not even get into the fact that you originally offered it as a way to stop Bolt Escape..which it will never do.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm happy you found my post entertaining.
Everything about your posts says that your primary, or only concern is one vs one balance for top-end players running min-maxed specs in Cyrodil. I agree that is important. But it probably represents a very small percent of the overall time the player base spends in the game as a whole. You can't balance based solely, or even mostly on that.
I'm not going to try to convince you of the sorcerer point of view. You're not interested in it. Perhaps you'll at least acknowledge that different views exist, however, and they don't represent 'crying.'
I'm no game developer, either. Just a consumer who is tired of seeing ZOS nerf classes because a tiny percentage of dedicated, top-end PvP players complain loud and long on the forums.
Those "top end player min-max specs" are just as unbalanced in 1vX, as they are in 1v1.
If someone can tank multiple people while spamming dmg shields, while the person without them is dead in 5 seconds, how is that balanced?
Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players", considering 3/4 are using a dmg shield in PvP.
Only 7% of players are playing a pure DPS character:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/144002/do-you-have-a-heal-or-a-dmg-shield-slotted-on-your-hotbar/p1
I fall in that 7%, which by no means are "top-end players", as a "top-end player" would never intentionally gimp him/herself by not slotting these abilities.
I simply happen to care how I play the game & what kind of character I'm playing, rather than what is most effective due to broken game mechanics.
Quite the opposite of how you perceive me, eh?
So yeah, lets talk about diversity & whether those things might a bit too strong, considering most of the population are using them...
P.S. I have a Sorcerer (not a traditional one though), so I'm fully aware of the "Sorcerer PoV". I also know Sorcerers are pretty much the strongest class in PvP right now (when played by a skilled person).
If you honestly still believe that shields are unbalanced even in a 1v2 scenario on pts with stamina builds being able to literally two shot anyone in light armor below 25k hp i can only pray to god that there comes the day that you start to play without your blindfold.
Shields are a problem in 1v1, for a group of idiots and low dmg tankbuilds. That is it.
Also if you manage to open on somebodys HP out of stealth with a decent gear setup no shield in the world will save them.Edited by Derra on February 7, 2015 9:42PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 508 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players..."
On PTS. That's not a representative sample of the overall player base. And again, you're only thinking of Cyrodil.
I suspect that the sorcs you see handling 1v5's just fine are somehow finding five people who between them brought no CC's, or who lack the patience to make that sorc run through his tiny stamina pool.
Still, nobody wants unkillable anythings. I don't want to see sorcs become like the orginal version of batswarming vampire DK's, either.
I do think shields shouldn't stack, and that they shouldn't block ultimates or be immune to DoT's. None of that stuff makes sense. But radical solutions like "Tie to them health" ignore the fact that magicka sorcs are really effing squishy without shields, and they don't have such great sustained DPS that they can pour points into health and still compete.
I think you are underestimating the amount of burst damage you can get as a Sorcerer.
After 1.6, Sorcerer will most likely be the class with highest out of stealth burst in game. The only thing preventing sorcs from utilizing that burst, are damage shields (not just Hardened Ward, but also Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka etc)
Also, you have the best mobility of all classes (BE) & now would have a good heal as well (Surge), if you could crit on dmg shields.
I'm fine with one class being squishier (but having these other benefits) than others and another being tankier.
If we all were equally squishy/tanky, why bother with classes at all?2 -
Ace_SiN✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »In a game with multiple forms of PvP in a large scale setting, you don't balance the game around group play while ignoring 1v1. That's just silly and a cop out to the problem at hand. In fact I can't think of a single Massive Scale MMO that ever took that approach, be it DAOC/WAR/GW2.
While you'll never get perfect balance like i said, leaving in overpowered crap like shields right now just because you think its fine in larger scale pvp is just downright silly.
Of course you don't ignore 1v1 balance. If a skill allows someone to 1 shot a player or become unkillable, then obviously it should be looked at. No one should become a god in ANY of the 3 scenarios(1v1, small scale, and mid-large scale). None of those games you mentioned were ever balanced in 1v1 though(and they never will be without a change to combat mechanics). GW2, as a recent example, balances their pvp around their structured pvp environment, not WvW zerging or duels.
King of Beasts0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm happy you found my post entertaining.
Everything about your posts says that your primary, or only concern is one vs one balance for top-end players running min-maxed specs in Cyrodil. I agree that is important. But it probably represents a very small percent of the overall time the player base spends in the game as a whole. You can't balance based solely, or even mostly on that.
I'm not going to try to convince you of the sorcerer point of view. You're not interested in it. Perhaps you'll at least acknowledge that different views exist, however, and they don't represent 'crying.'
I'm no game developer, either. Just a consumer who is tired of seeing ZOS nerf classes because a tiny percentage of dedicated, top-end PvP players complain loud and long on the forums.
Those "top end player min-max specs" are just as unbalanced in 1vX, as they are in 1v1.
If someone can tank multiple people while spamming dmg shields, while the person without them is dead in 5 seconds, how is that balanced?
Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players", considering 3/4 are using a dmg shield in PvP.
Only 7% of players are playing a pure DPS character:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/144002/do-you-have-a-heal-or-a-dmg-shield-slotted-on-your-hotbar/p1
I fall in that 7%, which by no means are "top-end players", as a "top-end player" would never intentionally gimp him/herself by not slotting these abilities.
I simply happen to care how I play the game & what kind of character I'm playing, rather than what is most effective due to broken game mechanics.
Quite the opposite of how you perceive me, eh?
So yeah, lets talk about diversity & whether those things might a bit too strong, considering most of the population are using them...
P.S. I have a Sorcerer (not a traditional one though), so I'm fully aware of the "Sorcerer PoV". I also know Sorcerers are pretty much the strongest class in PvP right now (when played by a skilled person).
If you honestly still believe that shields are unbalanced even in a 1v2 scenario on pts with stamina builds being able to literally two shot anyone in light armor below 25k hp i can only pray to god that there comes the day that you start to play without your blindfold.
Shields are a problem in 1v1, for a group of idiots and low dmg tankbuilds. That is it.
Also if you manage to open on somebodys HP out of stealth with a decent gear setup no shield in the world will save them.
This! So much this!!! Good players (not elites) and I mean people just barely above the crappy ones have zero issues taking down shields. Elite players rip right through them. I still fail to see the problem now that sorcs FINALLY have defense AT A COST. but whatever lol kill the sorc class because shields are to tough to get through or around. " the fight takes to long against sorcs now, please nerf"6 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »In a game with multiple forms of PvP in a large scale setting, you don't balance the game around group play while ignoring 1v1. That's just silly and a cop out to the problem at hand. In fact I can't think of a single Massive Scale MMO that ever took that approach, be it DAOC/WAR/GW2.
While you'll never get perfect balance like i said, leaving in overpowered crap like shields right now just because you think its fine in larger scale pvp is just downright silly.
Of course you don't ignore 1v1 balance. If a skill allows someone to 1 shot a player or become unkillable, then obviously it should be looked at. No one should become a god in ANY of the 3 scenarios(1v1, small scale, and mid-large scale). None of those games you mentioned were ever balanced in 1v1 though(and they never will be without a change to combat mechanics). GW2, as a recent example, balances their pvp around their structured pvp environment, not WvW zerging or duels.
So you believe shields should be looked at because they pretty much allow you to become a God currently in 1v1 combat? By looked at of course fix the bugs first then move to HP scaling if still broken.
Also, GW2 does balance around 1v1 in WvW.....Confusion is a prime example of something that got gutted mainly because of WvW (It was always weaker in SPvP)https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos3 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭...now would have a good heal as well (Surge), if you could crit on dmg shields.
Surge is a shadow of its former self, even in PvE against completely unshielded mobs. I won't go all internet and declare it "useless" or "worst skill ever," but the amount of actual healing provided has been cut by well more than half.
The change to Impenetrable made me think Surge might be useful in Cyrodil. But then I found it's not even that good in Craglorn, heh
Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade2 -
Solanum✭✭✭" Good players (not elites) and I mean people just barely above the crappy ones have zero issues taking down shields."
I for some reason am extremely skilled fighting stamina builds, but when facing a magicka build suddenly my skill drops and I lose far more often, very odd!
The logical explanation is that only noobs pick stamina builds. And while magicka is in fact at a disadvantage, all the pro players pick it, and that's why it seemingly preforms better..3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players..."
On PTS. That's not a representative sample of the overall player base. And again, you're only thinking of Cyrodil.
I suspect that the sorcs you see handling 1v5's just fine are somehow finding five people who between them brought no CC's, or who lack the patience to make that sorc run through his tiny stamina pool.
Still, nobody wants unkillable anythings. I don't want to see sorcs become like the orginal version of batswarming vampire DK's, either.
I do think shields shouldn't stack, and that they shouldn't block ultimates or be immune to DoT's. None of that stuff makes sense. But radical solutions like "Tie to them health" ignore the fact that magicka sorcs are really effing squishy without shields, and they don't have such great sustained DPS that they can pour points into health and still compete.
I think you are underestimating the amount of burst damage you can get as a Sorcerer.
After 1.6, Sorcerer will most likely be the class with highest out of stealth burst in game. The only thing preventing sorcs from utilizing that burst, are damage shields (not just Hardened Ward, but also Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka etc)
Also, you have the best mobility of all classes (BE) & now would have a good heal as well (Surge), if you could crit on dmg shields.
I'm fine with one class being squishier (but having these other benefits) than others and another being tankier.
If we all were equally squishy/tanky, why bother with classes at all?
What exactly leads you to believe that sorcs (especially magica ones) offer higher out of stealth burst than other classes - mind me asking?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭...now would have a good heal as well (Surge), if you could crit on dmg shields.
Surge is a shadow of its former self, even in PvE against completely unshielded mobs. I won't go all internet and declare it "useless" or "worst skill ever," but the amount of actual healing provided has been cut by well more than half.
The change to Impenetrable made me think Surge might be useful in Cyrodil. But then I found it's not even that good in Craglorn, heh
Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.
The more burst you deal, the bigger heals you get, and there's some crazy burst out there, like the Entropy->Crystal Frag combo I just mentioned.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm happy you found my post entertaining.
Everything about your posts says that your primary, or only concern is one vs one balance for top-end players running min-maxed specs in Cyrodil. I agree that is important. But it probably represents a very small percent of the overall time the player base spends in the game as a whole. You can't balance based solely, or even mostly on that.
I'm not going to try to convince you of the sorcerer point of view. You're not interested in it. Perhaps you'll at least acknowledge that different views exist, however, and they don't represent 'crying.'
I'm no game developer, either. Just a consumer who is tired of seeing ZOS nerf classes because a tiny percentage of dedicated, top-end PvP players complain loud and long on the forums.
Those "top end player min-max specs" are just as unbalanced in 1vX, as they are in 1v1.
If someone can tank multiple people while spamming dmg shields, while the person without them is dead in 5 seconds, how is that balanced?
Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players", considering 3/4 are using a dmg shield in PvP.
Only 7% of players are playing a pure DPS character:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/144002/do-you-have-a-heal-or-a-dmg-shield-slotted-on-your-hotbar/p1
I fall in that 7%, which by no means are "top-end players", as a "top-end player" would never intentionally gimp him/herself by not slotting these abilities.
I simply happen to care how I play the game & what kind of character I'm playing, rather than what is most effective due to broken game mechanics.
Quite the opposite of how you perceive me, eh?
So yeah, lets talk about diversity & whether those things might a bit too strong, considering most of the population are using them...
P.S. I have a Sorcerer (not a traditional one though), so I'm fully aware of the "Sorcerer PoV". I also know Sorcerers are pretty much the strongest class in PvP right now (when played by a skilled person).
If you honestly still believe that shields are unbalanced even in a 1v2 scenario on pts with stamina builds being able to literally two shot anyone in light armor below 25k hp i can only pray to god that there comes the day that you start to play without your blindfold.
Shields are a problem in 1v1, for a group of idiots and low dmg tankbuilds. That is it.
Also if you manage to open on somebodys HP out of stealth with a decent gear setup no shield in the world will save them.
This! So much this!!! Good players (not elites) and I mean people just barely above the crappy ones have zero issues taking down shields. Elite players rip right through them. I still fail to see the problem now that sorcs FINALLY have defense AT A COST. but whatever lol kill the sorc class because shields are to tough to get through or around. " the fight takes to long against sorcs now, please nerf"
Something is off with this logic. "Shields are worthless against good players" however; "nerfing them would kill the sorc class."
If they are that worthless against good players how can any change to them make or break a class?1 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.
I don't believe Entropy (I assume you mean Degeneration) procs on anything other than "weapon attacks," more specifically light and heavy attacks.
If Entropy procced on Crystal Fragments, that would be significant.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.
I don't believe Entropy (I assume you mean Degeneration) procs on anything other than "weapon attacks," more specifically light and heavy attacks.
If Entropy procced on Crystal Fragments, that would be significant.
I'm talking about the Major Empower buff (via Mages Guild passive) which you gain along with Major Sorcery after casting Entropy (either morph), which gives you a total of +40% damage on the next spell.
There, the secret is out, I don't care :P
For special heals, here's something I wanted to try: Surge->Degeneration->Overload->profit. Don't know if this works or not, but you're welcome for the idea.Edited by DDuke on February 7, 2015 10:32PM0 -
AriBoh✭✭✭✭✭Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.
I don't believe Entropy (I assume you mean Degeneration) procs on anything other than "weapon attacks," more specifically light and heavy attacks.
If Entropy procced on Crystal Fragments, that would be significant.
He means The heal off a Crit Surge proc while using those skills.....khele23eb17
Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.
ZOS_AmeliaR admin
Ultimately, any method of entering an enemy keep without breaking down the door is considered an exploit. Thanks for checking!
tinythinker
"I used to be a healer once, but then I took a Wrobel to the knee"0 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm talking about the Major Empower buff (via Mages Guild passive) which you gain along with Major Sorcery after casting Entropy (either morph), which gives you a total of +40% damage on the next spell.
Ah, I see. Yes, it's nice when crit surge procs on your big hits With the new cooldown, though, it's more likely to proc on a DoT tic. It's hard to avoid having any DoTs in your spec, too, though I may give that a shot at some point. Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
AriBoh✭✭✭✭✭Considering DoTs are being ignored by shields and them being near essential on 70% or something of builds, DoT skills or even whole potential DoT builds will be shelved. As if Sun Fire wasn't useless enough in pvp sometimes......khele23eb17
Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.
ZOS_AmeliaR admin
Ultimately, any method of entering an enemy keep without breaking down the door is considered an exploit. Thanks for checking!
tinythinker
"I used to be a healer once, but then I took a Wrobel to the knee"0 -
Nightreaver✭✭✭✭
1) Not 100% of the players in PvP were fully immune to Crits so it was useful. It was more useful in PvP then than it is in PvE currently.
Crit chance was more or less 0% before 1.6, due to Impenetrable.
The ability had zero use.
So how did it get nerfed, I ask you?
2) I just explained how it was nerfed. And yes those changes to Surge apply even to PvP. Do you read anyone else's posts or just your own?
Yay, and now it's zero% in PvE or at least as close to zero now as it was to zero in PvP. And it remains worthless in PvP. How is that useful again?The healing was zero % before in PvP.
Spoken as someone who has obviously never tried Surge in 1.6.Regardless, your damage has also been increased significantly, meaning that Crit Surge heals more or less the same amount as before (when you managed to proc it on someone not using dmg shield or Impenetrable).
Was Sorcerer damage increased 50% to compensate for the reduction that Crit damage now does in PvP?
Or the lowered Crit chance?
Or the lowered percentage that it heals?
Or the severely reduced number of heals?
That's interesting. I mean there have been a LOT of complaints about Sorcerers on Live but don't remember anyone ever complaining about Surge. Yet now somehow you would consider it OP even after it has been so severely nerfed.So you'd like an OP ability that makes you heal like GDB every time you deal damage, and when AoEing you'd like that to be even more. Right...
I already posted what I want but although you managed to quote almost everything I wrote, somehow that was overlooked so let me repeat it again. What I want is a Magicka build with DPS that can compete with DKs and NBs while maintaining the Survivability they have while doing that DPS.
I can't even fathom what you are going on about? Surge was not only useful it was a core ability, do you even PvE? If not Surge then what Class ability do Sorcerers have on Live for Survivability? Bolt? Yet another Sorcerer class ability that everyone wants to get rid of?And which heal would you be talking about? I hope you're not talking about Crit Surge, since that is useless on Live (do you even PvP?)
If you're talking about resto staff, everyone has access to it. In 1.6 as well.
No, if I wanted to be a DK I would have rolled one.But I understand, you'd like to be unkillable & tank 20 people in your pyjamas. Makes perfect sense.
Apparently your definition of OP is any ability that another class that your class does not. How long does it take to kill a Sorcerer without a shield? One Hit? Because that's what it would be like if they were removed.Nope, shields become "must haves" because they are too strong (which is the whole point of this thread).
Awesome, now if only you would put as much thought into figuring how to adapt to 1.6 as you feel Sorcerers should and have.You've got it, you just need to figure out how to do it (tip: there's a skill in Mages Guild for awesome burst dmg).
Wow, sounds easy. Almost as easy as CC'ing a Sorc, bursting down the shield and then one shotting them. You just need to figure out how to do it.Burst someone, bolt escape out, repeat. Not that hard, and doable even on live (before any 1.6 Sorc buffs).
This thread exists because Sorcerers found a new way to adapt to 1.6 and others chose to whine about it rather than make any attempt to adapt themselves.I think this thread wouldn't exist if there wasn't a problem of unkillable shield spammers.
Is there a balance issue? Maybe
Is the elimination of shields the answer with no other viable means for survivability? Certainly not.
Wait? What? Damage shields are what is preventing Crit Surge from being viable? So EVERY mob and every player has damage shields permanently up?The only reason you (Sorcerer) don't have a heal in 1.6, is because
a) dmg shields prevent Crit Surge from working
or
b) you refuse to slot resto staff
or
Because I refuse to slot a resto staff? Well if that is true and Resto staves are available to everyone then why does ANY class have heals or damage mitigation or avoidance abilities? That's awesome, so let's just remove all shields, all abilities that can heal, all damage mitigation abilities, all damage avoidance abilities and then just have everyone slot a Resto staff. Perfect balance.
Actually, I don't use a pet. Apparently that is ZOS's idea of a Sorcerers life mission. And I never used a shield until they destroyed our heal.But you seem to think that a Sorc's life mission is to spam shields & summon pets.
Well that certainly makes things much clearer now. I mean any thought I had that you were remotely interested in game balance just went out the window.There is a RPG archetype for Heavy Armour called "Warrior", present in most other (MMO)RPGs. These characters are usually perfectly capable of being DPS, though they play a bit differently.
I'm all for making Heavy Armour viable for DPS, I'd love that in fact.
So you honestly see no problem with someone in Heavy armor being able to Tank and still DPS as well as someone in Light while someone in Light should only be able to DPS while having no defensive ability.
So basically you feel that people should be allowed to play Sorcerers if that is what they want....as long as they accept that they will always be inferior.
If they ever create a Legendary recipe it better contain bacon as one of the ingredients. I'm just sayin'.9 -
Ace_SiN✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
So you believe shields should be looked at because they pretty much allow you to become a God currently in 1v1 combat? By looked at of course fix the bugs first then move to HP scaling if still broken.
Yes, I never said it shouldn't. It just shouldn't be hard nerfed(remove shield stacking completely) because it's strong in 1v1.xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Also, GW2 does balance around 1v1 in WvW.....Confusion is a prime example of something that got gutted mainly because of WvW (It was always weaker in SPvP)
Yes, skills get tweaked for zergs no different than they do for 1v1 sometimes, but most of the combat changes have been based on structured pvp. Classes were molded by structured pvp. Ele was consistently nerfed because of this. Warriors was one of the weaker classes(because majority of the skill traits used to be garbage), yet it constantly got nerfed because of the 1 or 2 builds it had were dominant in sPvP(Greatsword and Triple Axe).
Anything can be OP if you have 20+ guys using the same skill. While in a 1v1 only player skill would be able to "self balance" any of the stronger abilities. The problem is that a player's skill is not the dominating factor in ESO( or most other MMOs). As a result, small scale pvp will always have a better test environment for balance. In other words, it's more practical to balance around a small group with a limited amount of player's supporting one another. Then it is to balance combat around uneven 20+ v 20+ fights or to perfect 1v1 in a game with a low skill ceiling.
TL:DR
Yes, anything that allows a player to become a "god", outside of player skill, should be looked at and dealt with appropriately. However, It's not feasible to balance ESO's low skill ceiling combat around 1v1, so seeing how it affects other areas is crucial to the overall balance of the game.
edit: I've gone completely off topic now.. So I'll stop here.Edited by Ace_SiN on February 7, 2015 11:10PMKing of Beasts0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nightreaver wrote: »
1) Not 100% of the players in PvP were fully immune to Crits so it was useful. It was more useful in PvP then than it is in PvE currently.
Crit chance was more or less 0% before 1.6, due to Impenetrable.
The ability had zero use.
So how did it get nerfed, I ask you?
2) I just explained how it was nerfed. And yes those changes to Surge apply even to PvP. Do you read anyone else's posts or just your own?
1) No competitive player I know uses Surge in PvP, as it doesn't work against other competitive players. If you want to hit people & hope they're noobs, go ahead & be my guest.
2) Obviously I read your posts, the nonsense in them gives me a good laugh.Nightreaver wrote: »
Since when was this discussion about PvE?
And again, the only reason it remains useless in PvP (in its current state) is damage shields.Nightreaver wrote: »
Spoken as someone who has obviously never tried Surge in 1.6.Regardless, your damage has also been increased significantly, meaning that Crit Surge heals more or less the same amount as before (when you managed to proc it on someone not using dmg shield or Impenetrable).
Was Sorcerer damage increased 50% to compensate for the reduction that Crit damage now does in PvP?
50% crit reduction requires 5 pieces of Construct set (Impenetrable on all parts) & tons of Champion Points in crit dmg reduction.
In fact, I believe reinforced is much more useful trait now in PvP (atleast for medium/heavy users) as it reduces dmg taken in general.Nightreaver wrote: »Or the lowered Crit chance?
Affects everyone, and you can get your crit chance back up (requires some Champion Points).Nightreaver wrote: »Or the lowered percentage that it heals?
Or the severely reduced number of heals?
Sorc damage in general was greatly increased, so this compensates for lowered percentage.
I understand you'd like full health every time you hit your opponent, but that's not really balanced.
Also, I have no idea what you mean by "severely reduced number of heals".
Last I checked, no heals were removed from the game.Nightreaver wrote: »
That's interesting. I mean there have been a LOT of complaints about Sorcerers on Live but don't remember anyone ever complaining about Surge. Yet now somehow you would consider it OP even after it has been so severely nerfed.So you'd like an OP ability that makes you heal like GDB every time you deal damage, and when AoEing you'd like that to be even more. Right...
I already posted what I want but although you managed to quote almost everything I wrote, somehow that was overlooked so let me repeat it again. What I want is a Magicka build with DPS that can compete with DKs and NBs while maintaining the Survivability they have while doing that DPS.
So you'd like to be a DK or NB? Go play DK or NB.
As a sorc, you can have higher out of stealth burst than either of those classes, while simultaneously healing yourself with that burst.
You also have access to the best mobility in game (Bolt Escape), so I don't really see what you're complaining about.Nightreaver wrote: »
I can't even fathom what you are going on about? Surge was not only useful it was a core ability, do you even PvE? If not Surge then what Class ability do Sorcerers have on Live for Survivability? Bolt? Yet another Sorcerer class ability that everyone wants to get rid of?And which heal would you be talking about? I hope you're not talking about Crit Surge, since that is useless on Live (do you even PvP?)
If you're talking about resto staff, everyone has access to it. In 1.6 as well.
In fact I do PvE
13250 Achievement Points, including Boethiah's Scythe & Sanctum Ophidia completed.
I don't know why you keep bringing PvE into this, these are two completely separate matters.
You don't get crit in PvE, yet dmg shields prevent crits.
Mobs do not generate ultimate on you, yet dmg shields prevent ultimate gain.
Mobs do not have abilities or weapon enchantments that could proc on your shield.
So please, if you want to keep blathering nonsense, atleast try to stay on topic. Thank you.Nightreaver wrote: »
Maybe you should've. Though the permablock DK issue got fixed in 1.6, so it might not be your thing anymore.Nightreaver wrote: »
Apparently your definition of OP is any ability that another class that your class does not. How long does it take to kill a Sorcerer without a shield? One Hit? Because that's what it would be like if they were removed.Nope, shields become "must haves" because they are too strong (which is the whole point of this thread).
My class? The only class I am not playing is Templar (though I will start leveling soon).
Here's a free tip: everyone has access to damage shields (bone shield, harness magicka & healing ward).
And for the record, it takes 0,1 seconds to kill anyone below 3k health on live currently, so it isn't a "sorc issue", even if you'd want it to be.
Not that I'd agree with that btw, I would prefer it requiring atleast some skill to kill someone, rather than a simple rotation.
It just so happens btw that magicka sorcs have access to almost equal burst, even on live...Nightreaver wrote: »
Well, that's a waste of sentence, given that I explained below how you could easily adapt.Nightreaver wrote: »
Yeah, almost as easy as CC'ing someone (again, not a "sorc issue") who breaks every CC (or keeps Immovable up), never running out of stamina, while refreshing 1,5k shields that take 3 (580~ hit) Flying Blades to break, until I run out of resources.
All this, while maintaining capacity to burst you down in two seconds as well. Sounds very balanced indeed.
I suggest you take some time to educate yourself.
Watch some dueling videos, how people duel for 30+ minutes just refreshing dmg shields & throwing stuff at each other, until one gets bored and dies.
Most of these people don't even bother roll dodging to avoid CC thrown at them.Nightreaver wrote: »
This thread exists because Sorcerers found a new way to adapt to 1.6 and others chose to whine about it rather than make any attempt to adapt themselves.I think this thread wouldn't exist if there wasn't a problem of unkillable shield spammers.
Is there a balance issue? Maybe
Is the elimination of shields the answer with no other viable means for survivability? Certainly not.
Oh, so we should just "adapt" and all slot dmg shields as well?
Now there's a brilliant solution, why didn't I think of that...Nightreaver wrote: »
Wait? What? Damage shields are what is preventing Crit Surge from being viable? So EVERY mob and every player has damage shields permanently up?The only reason you (Sorcerer) don't have a heal in 1.6, is because
a) dmg shields prevent Crit Surge from working
or
b) you refuse to slot resto staff
Yes, this is PvP these days, especially after 1.6.
Are you new to this game?Nightreaver wrote: »or
Because I refuse to slot a resto staff? Well if that is true and Resto staves are available to everyone then why does ANY class have heals or damage mitigation or avoidance abilities? That's awesome, so let's just remove all shields, all abilities that can heal, all damage mitigation abilities, all damage avoidance abilities and then just have everyone slot a Resto staff. Perfect balance.
That's called class balance.
Sure, I'd take Crit Surge for my NB, GDB & Scales from DK etc, but that wouldn't be balanced. Quite simple, really.
Or we could just make every class do the same thing. Sounds very interesting & fun...Nightreaver wrote: »
Well, you brought up the pets, and the only reason your heal isn't working in PvP currently, is because dmg shields prevent it from working.
Like it or not, that's just how it is
Nightreaver wrote: »
Well that certainly makes things much clearer now. I mean any thought I had that you were remotely interested in game balance just went out the window.There is a RPG archetype for Heavy Armour called "Warrior", present in most other (MMO)RPGs. These characters are usually perfectly capable of being DPS, though they play a bit differently.
I'm all for making Heavy Armour viable for DPS, I'd love that in fact.
So you honestly see no problem with someone in Heavy armor being able to Tank and still DPS as well as someone in Light while someone in Light should only be able to DPS while having no defensive ability.
So basically you feel that people should be allowed to play Sorcerers if that is what they want....as long as they accept that they will always be inferior.
Sigh... you should really stop jumping into conclusions
Obviously, if you wanted to have Heavy Armour DPS it'd have to be balanced.
E.g. "Berserking Stance - Damage dealt increased by 1% every time you take damage, stacks up to 30 times. Shield effectiveness & healing done reduced by 75% while in this stance"
Just off the top of my head.
And for light armour having "no defensive ability", how about:
"Ice Block - Freeze yourself for 5 seconds, becoming immune to damage. Halts your magicka regeneration"
"Illusion - Creates 2 illusionary copies of your character"
etc.
Your problem is that you're too confined to this ideology that everyone should spam dmg shield or heal in PvP.
In most other MMOs, there's more diversity in defensive skills, which makes every encounter different & interesting.
And no, Sorcerers are not "inferior", not now & certainly not after 1.6.
All you have to do is google "ESO Sorcerer PvP", open the AvA forum (there's multiple sorc videos posted there) or spend some time in Cyrodiil.6 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
So you believe shields should be looked at because they pretty much allow you to become a God currently in 1v1 combat? By looked at of course fix the bugs first then move to HP scaling if still broken.
Yes, I never said it shouldn't. It just shouldn't be hard nerfed(remove shield stacking completely) because it's strong in 1v1.xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Also, GW2 does balance around 1v1 in WvW.....Confusion is a prime example of something that got gutted mainly because of WvW (It was always weaker in SPvP)
Yes, skills get tweaked for zergs no different than they do for 1v1 sometimes, but most of the combat changes have been based on structured pvp. Classes were molded by structured pvp. Ele was consistently nerfed because of this. Warriors was one of the weaker classes(because majority of the skill traits used to be garbage), yet it constantly got nerfed because of the 1 or 2 builds it had were dominant in sPvP(Greatsword and Triple Axe).
Anything can be OP if you have 20+ guys using the same skill. While in a 1v1 only player skill would be able to "self balance" any of the stronger abilities. The problem is that a player's skill is not the dominating factor in ESO( or most other MMOs). As a result, small scale pvp will always have a better test environment for balance. In other words, it's more practical to balance around a small group with a limited amount of player's supporting one another. Then it is to balance combat around uneven 20+ v 20+ fights or to perfect 1v1 in a game with a low skill ceiling.
TL:DR
Yes, anything that allows a player to become a "god", outside of player skill, should be looked at and dealt with appropriately. However, It's not feasible to balance ESO's low skill ceiling combat around 1v1, so seeing how it affects other areas is crucial to the overall balance of the game.
edit: I've gone completely off topic now.. So I'll stop here.
We must of played a different gw2 because warriors got massively over buffed to the point of silliness and stayed that way for a solid 6 plus monthshttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Nightreaver✭✭✭✭
When you forgot that PvE is also a part of this game.Since when was this discussion about PvE?
So you're not actually against Sorcerers using damage shields, you're against everyone using damage shields. And again, I'm fine with eliminating damage shields if you're fine with eliminating all other forms of damage mitigation, damage avoidance and heals.And again, the only reason it remains useless in PvP (in its current state) is damage shields.
To use another one of your quotes50% crit reduction requires 5 pieces of Construct set (Impenetrable on all parts) & tons of Champion Points in crit dmg reduction.Affects everyone, and you can get your crit chance (reduction) back up (requires some Champion Points).
Affects everyone? Really? Could you provide me with a list please of all other class Healing abilities that are solely (as in 100%) dependent on Crits?
Affects everyone, and you can get your crit chance back up (requires some Champion Points).Nightreaver wrote: »Or the lowered Crit chance?
Sorc damage wasn't greatly increased. Sorcerer damage increased due to the removal of caps allowing people to min/max at the cost of health and the decrease in damage mitigation and spell resistance in relation other armor types. Surge heals on Live are a minimum of 63% greater than on PTS. The gap is even wider when consider Crit damage reduction.Sorc damage in general was greatly increased, so this compensates for lowered percentage.
Not going to bother listing them all but there's a whole lot of numbers between zero and full health. Right now the number is much closer to zero. And THAT is not really balanced.I understand you'd like full health every time you hit your opponent, but that's not really balanced.
We're talking about Surge, please try and keep up.Also, I have no idea what you mean by "severely reduced number of heals".
Last I checked, no heals were removed from the game.
1) Heals on Shock reduced to 1/3.
2) Heals on AOEs reduced to one, down from the total number of targets it hit previously so on a group of 6 reduced to 1/6.
3)Those DOTs that added a small inconsequential heal IN ADDITION to the main heal, can now heal INSTEAD of that main heal.
Ok, so first you tell us that players in Heavy armor should be able to both Tank and DPS while those in Light armor should be restricted to only DPS. Now you tell us that if Sorcerers or Templars want to compete with DKs or NBs then we need to roll a DK or NB.
So you'd like to be a DK or NB? Go play DK or NB.Nightreaver wrote: »What I want is a Magicka build with DPS that can compete with DKs and NBs while maintaining the Survivability they have while doing that DPS.
Wow, no reply needed there. I think your statement says it all.
It just keeps getting better. So you honestly believe that changes made to PvP won't affect PvE?In fact I do PvE
I don't know why you keep bringing PvE into this, these are two completely separate matters.
Agreed, and I think they should in PvP.You don't get crit in PvE, yet dmg shields prevent crits.
Agreed again and again I believe they should in PvP.Mobs do not generate ultimate on you, yet dmg shields prevent ultimate gain.
Not disagreeing with any of these statements. What I disagree with is the complete elimination of Shields for Sorcerers.Mobs do not have abilities or weapon enchantments that could proc on your shield.
Wait, I thought we were talking about Damage shields. Can we get back on topic please?So please, if you want to keep blathering nonsense, atleast try to stay on topic. Thank you.
But I understand, you'd like to be unkillable & tank 20 people in your pyjamas. Makes perfect sense.
Maybe you should've. Though the permablock DK issue got fixed in 1.6, so it might not be your thing anymore.Nightreaver wrote: »No, if I wanted to be a DK I would have rolled one.
And yet you still find it so much easier to whine about how Sorcerers should adapt than making any attempt to adapt yourself.Well, that's a waste of sentence, given that I explained below how you could easily adapt.
No, I've been playing since Beta. Is there a new update that removed PvE from the game?Yes, this is PvP these days, especially after 1.6.
Are you new to this game?
Yes, we've heard your idea of balance.That's called class balance.
Players in Heavy armor should be able to both Tank and DPS while those in Light should only DPS.
DKs and NB should have best DPS and any Templars and Sorcerers that want to compete need to roll one or the other.
So it would be possible to balance Heavy Armor DPS but not Light Armor Tanking? Sorry, but still not seeing where the balanced part comes in.Obviously, if you wanted to have Heavy Armour DPS it'd have to be balanced.
1) I don't believe that everyone should spam a damage shield or heal. But I do believe that there should be balanced means of survivability. And without either a Heal or a Damage shield Sorcerers have nowhere near the survivability of DKs and NBs.
Your problem is that you're too confined to this ideology that everyone should spam dmg shield or heal in PvP.
In most other MMOs, there's more diversity in defensive skills, which makes every encounter different & interesting.
2) You talk about more diversity but apparently only diversity that works to your advantage. You can accept players in Heavy armor filling both the Tanking and the DPS role but feel that those in Light armor should be restricted to DPS. What happened to your desire to see diversity there?
Agreed.And no, Sorcerers are not "inferior", not now & certainly not after 1.6.
But I have to wonder how long that would last with the removal of our Shield.
And I certainly don't consider DKs or NBs to be inferior either. Not by a long shot.
If they ever create a Legendary recipe it better contain bacon as one of the ingredients. I'm just sayin'.5 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since when was this discussion about PvE?
And again, the only reason it remains useless in PvP (in its current state) is damage shields.
Again, the issue with Surge is not damage shields, in Cyrodil or anywhere else. In its current state, it's not useful in PvP for the same reason it's not useful in PvE. The cooldown drastically cuts its heal output.
So, if part of your argument is that sorcs will be better off if damage shields go, because they'll then be in surge heaven, you'll have to let that bit go. Surge got gutted.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As you seem to be having a hard time comprehending what I'm writing, this is going to be my last reply to you. Read carefully.Nightreaver wrote: »
When you forgot that PvE is also a part of this game.Since when was this discussion about PvE?
So you're not actually against Sorcerers using damage shields, you're against everyone using damage shields. And again, I'm fine with eliminating damage shields if you're fine with eliminating all other forms of damage mitigation, damage avoidance and heals.And again, the only reason it remains useless in PvP (in its current state) is damage shields.
Yes, for the 100th time it is not a "sorc issue". Every damage shield in the game prevents crit, ability procs, weapon procs, ultimate gain, while being more cost effective & stronger than damaging abilities. Not just sorc shields.
And no one is saying "remove all damage shields".
What is being said is that they should be balanced & fixed to be more in line with other defensive abilities, instead of being some invincibility buttons that prevent any meaningful PvP from happening.Nightreaver wrote: »
I don't know what you're trying to say here. It takes 100 Champion Points to max crit dmg reduction (points which could go into damage instead), as well as gimmick gear with Impenetrable on every piece.
I'm perfectly fine with this by the way, you can still crit atleast.Nightreaver wrote: »
Affects everyone? Really? Could you provide me with a list please of all other class Healing abilities that are solely (as in 100%) dependent on Crits?
Affects everyone, and you can get your crit chance back up (requires some Champion Points).Nightreaver wrote: »Or the lowered Crit chance?
Your class healing ability is 100% dependent on people not slotting any dmg shield, I don't think you should concern yourself about not having enough Champion Points yet.Nightreaver wrote: »
Sorc damage wasn't greatly increased. Sorcerer damage increased due to the removal of caps allowing people to min/max at the cost of health and the decrease in damage mitigation and spell resistance in relation other armor types. Surge heals on Live are a minimum of 63% greater than on PTS. The gap is even wider when consider Crit damage reduction.Sorc damage in general was greatly increased, so this compensates for lowered percentage.
Sorc damage was increased significantly. Have you tested things at all in PTS?
Even on Live, I know sorcs hitting 1,5k DPS on Serpent, so I don't really know what the QQ is about.
If you can't find the optimal build for your class, then don't complain about not dealing enough damage.Nightreaver wrote: »
Yes, you get zero healing at the moment on Live, and you get 40-50% in PTS. Not really that close to zero come to think of it.
A 40% heal on Crystal Frag burst means you're getting a heal equal to Templar BoL or GDB while dealing damage.
If this isn't enough for you, well... I don't know what to tell you.
Use something else?Nightreaver wrote: »Nightreaver wrote: »2) Heals on AOEs reduced to one, down from the total number of targets it hit previously so on a group of 6 reduced to 1/6.
So you can't be unkillable while AoEing, like the good old batswarm DKs in launch? Such a tragedy...Nightreaver wrote: »3)Those DOTs that added a small inconsequential heal IN ADDITION to the main heal, can now heal INSTEAD of that main heal.
The cooldown is 0,25 seconds. That's one quarter of a second.
I'm sure you can learn to time your DPS around the DoT tick (should be familiar concept if you've played other MMOs). That requires some skill atleast which is a welcome change.
Or you can, you know, choose not to play with DoTs if this is too difficult for you.Nightreaver wrote: »
Ok, so first you tell us that players in Heavy armor should be able to both Tank and DPS while those in Light armor should be restricted to only DPS. Now you tell us that if Sorcerers or Templars want to compete with DKs or NBs then we need to roll a DK or NB.
So you'd like to be a DK or NB? Go play DK or NB.Nightreaver wrote: »What I want is a Magicka build with DPS that can compete with DKs and NBs while maintaining the Survivability they have while doing that DPS.
Wow, no reply needed there. I think your statement says it all.
Compete with DKs or NBs? Please.
Some of the best PvPers I know are Sorcs & Templars.
Sorc sure seems to be the class that attracts most players with L2P issues however.Nightreaver wrote: »
Another waste of a sentence, given that I explained below why changes made to PvP wouldn't affect PvE.Nightreaver wrote: »
You think they should prevent crits, while you complain about Surge being weak. Hilarious stuff, keep it coming.Nightreaver wrote: »
Ok.Nightreaver wrote: »
Is there someone here calling for the removal of Damage Shields (oh, and especially Sorcerer shield)?Nightreaver wrote: »
Wait, I thought we were talking about Damage shields. Can we get back on topic please?So please, if you want to keep blathering nonsense, atleast try to stay on topic. Thank you.
But I understand, you'd like to be unkillable & tank 20 people in your pyjamas. Makes perfect sense.
Maybe you should've. Though the permablock DK issue got fixed in 1.6, so it might not be your thing anymore.Nightreaver wrote: »No, if I wanted to be a DK I would have rolled one.
Yes, it is about dmg shields.
It's not an anti-Sorc conspiracy. Good, we're on the same page now.Nightreaver wrote: »
Again, this is not an anti-Sorc conspiracy, you can take off that tin foil hat.
Everyone has to adapt in 1.6, regardless of class.
People here are simply reporting what abilities are broken & out of balance.Nightreaver wrote: »
I don't think anyone is claiming dmg shields are a problem in PvE.Nightreaver wrote: »
You probably didn't read the examples of how you could give light armour character survivability (outside shields & heals).
Also, there are already abilities for survivability like Bolt Escape, Weakening Prison (very strong after 1.6), Cloak, Scales, NB shade etc that are not shields (or heals).
That said, you already have a lot of heals in game, which are stronger while using light armour (and you can cast them longer). What is the problem?
If anything, shields being too strong only make people not use these other defensive tools.Nightreaver wrote: »
There's no such thing as "Light Armor Tanking".
In which other (MMO)RPG did you tank people in pyjamas?
Light Armour is meant to be squishy & take more damage, meaning you aren't meant to "tank" people.
Instead, enjoy having more heals & direct burst damage at your disposal, as well as more mobility in form of things like Bolt Escape or Cloak & more overall utility (since you're able to cast more spells in light armour).Nightreaver wrote: »
1) I don't believe that everyone should spam a damage shield or heal. But I do believe that there should be balanced means of survivability. And without either a Heal or a Damage shield Sorcerers have nowhere near the survivability of DKs and NBs.
Your problem is that you're too confined to this ideology that everyone should spam dmg shield or heal in PvP.
In most other MMOs, there's more diversity in defensive skills, which makes every encounter different & interesting.
You have a heal in Crit Surge, you have survivability in form of Bolt Escape (and Weakening Prison in 1.6). Whether you choose to utilize that survivability or not is your problem.
Also: NBs don't have a direct self heal either, they don't even have a dmg shield (without resto staff). DK survivability is nerfed in 1.6.
Sure, there are still balance issues. Damage shields happen to be the biggest one atmNightreaver wrote: »2) You talk about more diversity but apparently only diversity that works to your advantage. You can accept players in Heavy armor filling both the Tanking and the DPS role but feel that those in Light armor should be restricted to DPS. What happened to your desire to see diversity there?
What happened to things like Bolt Escape, Cloak, Scales etc? Oh right, nothing.
And once again, no one is saying "remove dmg shields" or "remove heals". That'd be stupid.
The problem simply happens to be that those dmg shields are far too strong at the moment, and need to be toned down.
When 75% of people use these shields, there is a problem with diversity.Nightreaver wrote: »
And for the last time, no one is asking for "removal of your Shield".
If an ability prevents crits from happening, weapon enchantments & ability charges from generating, ulti from generating, while shielding you from more damage than even most ultimates can deal & being spammable forever, there is a problem.4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Since when was this discussion about PvE?
And again, the only reason it remains useless in PvP (in its current state) is damage shields.
Again, the issue with Surge is not damage shields, in Cyrodil or anywhere else. In its current state, it's not useful in PvP for the same reason it's not useful in PvE. The cooldown drastically cuts its heal output.
So, if part of your argument is that sorcs will be better off if damage shields go, because they'll then be in surge heaven, you'll have to let that bit go. Surge got gutted.
Your DPS got increased by more than 25% (yes, taking other classes 1.6 into account), while your Surge heals for 20% less.
Now, I don't have to be a math genius to tell you that Surge is certainly not weaker than before, especially now that you can finally even use it in PvP.
In fact, I gave you an example earlier of how you can use Surge to gain free heals equal to Templar BoL or GDB while dealing massive burst damage.
The cooldown is 0,25 seconds. You can use skills only every 1,3 seconds.
The only way it would prevent you from getting a heal, is a combination of bad luck & bad timing, and you can fix the timing part if you're skilled enough.Edited by DDuke on February 8, 2015 11:21AM3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since when was this discussion about PvE?
And again, the only reason it remains useless in PvP (in its current state) is damage shields.
Again, the issue with Surge is not damage shields, in Cyrodil or anywhere else. In its current state, it's not useful in PvP for the same reason it's not useful in PvE. The cooldown drastically cuts its heal output.
So, if part of your argument is that sorcs will be better off if damage shields go, because they'll then be in surge heaven, you'll have to let that bit go. Surge got gutted.
Your DPS got increased by more than 25% (yes, taking other classes 1.6 into account), while your Surge heals for 20% less.
Now, I don't have to be a math genius to tell you that Surge is certainly not weaker than before, especially now that you can finally even use it in PvP.
In fact, I gave you an example earlier of how you can use Surge to gain free heals equal to Templar BoL or GDB while dealing massive burst damage.
The cooldown is 0,25 seconds. You can use skills only every 1,3 seconds.
The only way it would prevent you from getting a heal, is a combination of bad luck & bad timing, and you can fix the timing part if you're skilled enough.
Dude are you insane? Surge on pts is a million times worse than on live (even in pvp). You´ve got multiple people that actually play sorcs telling you so yet you still claim you know better.
Also sorc dps is unarguably still the worst. Our burst dmg got increased not the dps (dps is worse than on live for sorcerers - the only spec putting up numbers that are anywhere near competetive is a pet spec that gets nothing from surge).
Stop making up numbers and go test something yourself instead of only theorycrafting the one perfect example that fits your argument (also talking about skill and timing in a 27% chance random heal is not so smart if you ask me).Edited by Derra on February 8, 2015 12:11PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505
