About Shield Stacking

Elendor

For those who have been testing the balance of the 1.6 / 1.6.1 in Cyrodiil, we heard a lot of complain about shield stacking. It's definitely a new trend for magicka builds.

On the other hand, light armor / magicka builds have been nerfed. With the much reduced armor/spell resist, and the few skill morphs that were taken away and turned into stamina morphs (which is only fair, until now stamina builds pretty much had all the class abilities taken away)...
Shield stacking is pretty much the only way for magicka oriented characters to take some damage without imploding.

So I'm looking at the problem under a different light. I'm fine with players having a constant 15-25K shield on. My issue is that bursting through that shield is slower than bursting through 15-25K hp would be. So by the time i'm through that shield, they've added another 15K shield to go through, and because my dps is much lower on shield, they can sustain this pattern.

So how come it takes longer to go through shield? Because somehow, hitting a shield isn't doing "damage". We're not doing damage, we're not hitting actual hp, we're only hitting a buffer, and as a result nothing crits, nothing procs. Because apparently you need to do "damage", as in damage that shows in logs, to actually crit or proc, and in the logs when you hit a shield, you do 0.

Therefore all your crits are taken away. Evil hunter won't proc on a vamp, as long as the shields stay on; burning light, the templar passive that can proc extra damage, won't happen, etc

When hitting a shield, you're stuck at your minimum dps. And that contributes to make shield stacking a trend, and it contributes to make it an issue.

So for me, another way of solving this shields problem would be to fix how shields work. Make it so that we can crit, proc, etc... We should be able to do our usual dps on shields, and if we did i think the shield stacking would be fine.

Orchish

Everyone is shield stacking on the PTS, except for the two random guys in heavy armour who seem more like paper bags than tanks. It's very real and if things don't change then yes shield stacking is the way to go for light armour magic builds it seems.

ToRelax

I think it should at least work for everything but crits, not having a problem with letting those work either.

Glory

Orchish wrote: »

Everyone is shield stacking on the PTS, except for the two random guys in heavy armour who seem more like paper bags than tanks. It's very real and if things don't change then yes shield stacking is the way to go for light armour magic builds it seems.

Are you on the PTS? At least half are running medium armor, probably 2H.

Domander

Hey look, a thoughtful post about damage shields.

It's not a bad idea, and shields preventing crits and other effects might be part of the reason they can seem powerful.

Orchish

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

Everyone is shield stacking on the PTS, except for the two random guys in heavy armour who seem more like paper bags than tanks. It's very real and if things don't change then yes shield stacking is the way to go for light armour magic builds it seems.

Are you on the PTS? At least half are running medium armor, probably 2H.

Yes i am, and i am talking specifically about the light armour users. After all i got the impression the OP was talking about light armour/magicka builds not medium armour stamina builds.

cazlonb16_ESO

Orchish wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

Everyone is shield stacking on the PTS, except for the two random guys in heavy armour who seem more like paper bags than tanks. It's very real and if things don't change then yes shield stacking is the way to go for light armour magic builds it seems.

Are you on the PTS? At least half are running medium armor, probably 2H.

Yes i am, and i am talking specifically about the light armour users. After all i got the impression the OP was talking about light armour/magicka builds not medium armour stamina builds.

A large shift towards medium and heavy armour based builds would strongly indicate that damage shields are much less of a problem than they are made out to be on the forums though.

Sharee

Attacking an enemy who is shielded needs to count as an attack.

Right now, even quick siphon does not work, even tho it specifically states you should be healed when attacking (as opposed to damaging) the enemy the siphon is cast on.

Shields stop too many mechanics. Ultimate from basic attacks isn't generated, grim focus counter does not increase, etc.etc.

DeLindsay

Elendor wrote: »

For those who have been testing the balance of the 1.6 / 1.6.1 in Cyrodiil, we heard a lot of complain about shield stacking. It's definitely a new trend for magicka builds.

It's not a new trend, but it's now much more pervasive than before. The reason is without Shields in Cyro (at least for the 1.6 build) Players were being 1-shot or at most 2-shot by Snipers and 2H's. You pretty much have 2 choices in Cyro in 1.6, ultra defensive with Shields and full Impen or true Glass Canons. There isn't much in between now. Yes there are still folks with 1vX builds on PTS but it's far less than on Live right now.

This is in part due to all the added bits in the Champion System. Once Players have had 3-6 months to build their Characters up with all the new goodies in the CS, you will start to see Cyro even out. Players won't have to be fully on 1-side or the other in regards to defense/offense as much. But until then Players are doing whatever they have to do to survive.

McDoogs

If you build to be a glass cannon, you shouldn't be able to tank as much burst damage as magicka builds (esp. sorcerors) can. What we have right now in 1.6 are damage shielded tank-mages who have very high mitigation via shields and very high damage via ranged spells both due to pumped up magicka pools.

Shields not only absorb large amounts of damage, they make the caster immune to critical hits. Thats a big deal, and only the most shameless shield stackers will disagree.

technohic

Sharee wrote: »

Attacking an enemy who is shielded needs to count as an attack.

Right now, even quick siphon does not work, even tho it specifically states you should be healed when attacking (as opposed to damaging) the enemy the siphon is cast on.

Shields stop too many mechanics. Ultimate from basic attacks isn't generated, grim focus counter does not increase, etc.etc.

I think this would go a long way to being more fair in allowing effects to count even if the shield is eating the damage. You are still doing damage, really. Just to the shield rather than the player.

Elendor

McDoogs wrote: »

Shields not only absorb large amounts of damage, they make the caster immune to critical hits. Thats a big deal, and only the most shameless shield stackers will disagree.

And not only to critical hits... to all procs of any sort, as I was saying in the original post. After testing, it even prevents ultimate building.
Because this "ultimate buff" you get in the 1.6 is a proc, and just like the rest, it procs on damage... and hitting shield isn't damage.
Dots don't seem to go through either, the first tick hits (although doesn't do damage on logs), and then the rest doesn't seem to apply.

So shields at the moment deny you crits, procs, dots, ultimates, that's quite a lot, and for me it's the real issue hiding behind "shield stacking"

umagon

I think the shields should only stop 1-3 attacks completely then be dropped, requiring the player to recast. And each re-cast afterwards for 6 or so secs costs more. I would like to see them move away from the whole "spam" skills system and make things more tactical.

Digiman

I thought that shields would overlap not add to it. But I guess this points out a massive flaw with the way cloth is treated. Of course magicka users are going stack cheap shields if it means not being blast away.

Hopefully ZoS will even out the amount the shields will give so it isn't a herculean task to break through. This certainly reminds me of the A.T fields in Neon Genesis.

Varicite

Sharee wrote: »

Attacking an enemy who is shielded needs to count as an attack.

Right now, even quick siphon does not work, even tho it specifically states you should be healed when attacking (as opposed to damaging) the enemy the siphon is cast on.

Shields stop too many mechanics. Ultimate from basic attacks isn't generated, grim focus counter does not increase, etc.etc.

Quoting because it bears repeating.

Joy_Division

This is not a new trend. My EP guild quit the game over this very issue back in June.

Locke_ESO

While I agree in principle that shield stacking is an issue I also think that ZoS need to be a bit wary about any changes that are made. Light armour is already much less effective on PTS and at least imo the idea of a "glass cannon" caster is already pretty ropey in this game with it's relatively low range and low damage spells and melee charge abilities. If Light becomes ridiculously unsurvivable then people will just drop it entirely for archer based range skills and heavier armour.

McDoogs

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

While I agree in principle that shield stacking is an issue I also think that ZoS need to be a bit wary about any changes that are made. Light armour is already much less effective on PTS and at least imo the idea of a "glass cannon" caster is already pretty ropey in this game with it's relatively low range and low damage spells and melee charge abilities. If Light becomes ridiculously unsurvivable then people will just drop it entirely for archer based range skills and heavier armour.

No one is saying that ZOS should nerf damage shields into the ground, only that min/maxed magicka damage builds shouldn't have 25k+ hp worth of cheap fast applying shields that make them immune to crits/procs/dots/enemy ultimate gain/etc WHILE STILL retaining their min/maxed magicka pool damage.

Surely you can see why. If you build a glass cannon you should not wind up with a tank-mage.

Gorthax

umagon wrote: »

I think the shields should only stop 1-3 attacks completely then be dropped, requiring the player to recast. And each re-cast afterwards for 6 or so secs costs more. I would like to see them move away from the whole "spam" skills system and make things more tactical.

ok so apply that to GDB, RS, and all the other really annoying skills people use to stay alive.

Snit

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

McDoogs

Gorthax wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

I think the shields should only stop 1-3 attacks completely then be dropped, requiring the player to recast. And each re-cast afterwards for 6 or so secs costs more. I would like to see them move away from the whole "spam" skills system and make things more tactical.

ok so apply that to GDB, RS, and all the other really annoying skills people use to stay alive.

You do realize the gameplay differences between mitigation abilities that scale off of a damage resource pool as opposed to the health pool don't you?

Septimus_Magna

I do agree you should be able to gain ulti while hitting a shield but nerfing damage shields will completely remove light armor as a viable choice. Its already 1/4 armor compared to heavy so once you're unable to recast the shield for a few seconds you're dead anyway. It might seem unbalanced but I think the right approach with fears, stuns and knock-downs can compensate a lot. Magicka builds can only block for a short time so use it to your advantage.

McDoogs

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I do agree you should be able to gain ulti while hitting a shield but nerfing damage shields will completely remove light armor as a viable choice. Its already 1/4 armor compared to heavy so once you're unable to recast the shield for a few seconds you're dead anyway. It might seem unbalanced but I think the right approach with fears, stuns and knock-downs can compensate a lot. Magicka builds can only block for a short time so use it to your advantage.

No, it won't. A small reduction in mitigation amount, or a small increase in cost, or allowing crits on shields, or enabling DoTs on shields, etc will not make LA obsolete. That's total hyperbole.

Asgari

If it's not one thing it's another. My goodness you people always complain about the silliest things. Shield stacking is fine.it honestly comes down to a l2p issue.

Lionxoft

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

If it's not one thing it's another. My goodness you people always complain about the silliest things. Shield stacking is fine.it honestly comes down to a l2p issue.

Who wants to put money that ^^^ plays a shield stacking sorc?

Scale the shields off of health. If a new shield is cast it removes the previous. Alter shields to appropriate values. Solution.

There's no reason for a defensive ability to scale off of a offensive stat.

meistermeuchler1b16_ESO

you need to consider the new battle spirit buff. you have -15% incoming damage and -15% received healing. shields however dont have any kind of penalty. so they are 15% + the extra points in the champions system more effective.
so currently they are ~20% better in pvp then on the live server. first step should be to make a 15% penalty addition to the battle spirit buff.

Wahee

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

If it's not one thing it's another. My goodness you people always complain about the silliest things. Shield stacking is fine.it honestly comes down to a l2p issue.

L2P...L2S. Learn to Shield? Sure, I can play a shield build too, but I don't want to be forced into that playstyle to be competitive. Shields are borderline mandatory for competitive play, it shouldn't be that way.

Other mitigation should be a viable alternative to shields. With the mentioned crit immunity, proc immunity, and no ult gain shields are the clearly superior choice in mitigation. Shields outpace heals as well as they are not subject to a debuff that reduces their effectiveness.

Derra

Domander wrote: »

Hey look, a thoughtful post about damage shields.

It's not a bad idea, and shields preventing crits and other effects might be part of the reason they can seem powerful.

Shield stacking is a problem. Rework it in a way that only one shield (highest value) can be active on a character.

If you want to crit on shields (they already have zero mitigation) i want to be able to cast critical shields that are 50% stronger.

Lorkhan

well thought out, OP. /cheers

cozmon3c_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Hey look, a thoughtful post about damage shields.

It's not a bad idea, and shields preventing crits and other effects might be part of the reason they can seem powerful.

Shield stacking is a problem. Rework it in a way that only one shield (highest value) can be active on a character.

If you want to crit on shields (they already have zero mitigation) i want to be able to cast critical shields that are 50% stronger.

Pretty sure you can already critical big Sheilds. Atleast it was when I had a critical build the first few months of the game. Unless they changed it, but I don't remember reading that anywhere.

Gorthax

McDoogs wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

I think the shields should only stop 1-3 attacks completely then be dropped, requiring the player to recast. And each re-cast afterwards for 6 or so secs costs more. I would like to see them move away from the whole "spam" skills system and make things more tactical.

ok so apply that to GDB, RS, and all the other really annoying skills people use to stay alive.

You do realize the gameplay differences between mitigation abilities that scale off of a damage resource pool as opposed to the health pool don't you?

Yes I do. But do you realize he is calling for a penalty for using shields? So because someone plays defensively until there is an opening for offensive, then they should be penalized for playing that way. Which is why I said do the same to everything people spam if he wants to go that route.

I mean come on. The shield is recast to stay alive. GDB is recast to stay alive (as needed) RS is the same way. Only using those two as a clear example. So to call for the penalty he is calling for it would have to be applied to ALL skills people use to stay a live.