A Radical Redesign of the Champion System

Faugaun

I've been reading many threads of differing opinions and complaints about how CS is unfair because it is based on CP and it encourages grinding Etc...

Frankly, my observation is that there is a lot of mixed thought (and emotion) on this topic and ZOS is unlikely to act unless there is a clear majority. This said I think I have a proposition that the player base might actually be able to get behind and it requires very little change to ZOS's current plan, fairly compensates players for their previous efforts and completely eliminates grinding...in fact it encourages players to do many different things within the game.

Does this sound to good to be true? Here is the suggestion.

Step 1) How about if we level 1-50 using the story line as we do in ver 1.5 (and is proposed in 1.6). After this the experience system is completely eliminated, no experience exists after reaching level 50.

Step 2) Eliminate VR1-14 ....since there is no way to get exp there is no VR.

Step 3) Revert the CP to the former 7200 CP style from a few weeks ago. Since there is no exp after 50 a radical redesign is needed for how to acquire these CP.

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

Step 5) This is key in my opinion but I imagine others may disagree ...Make the entire acheivement system account wide. So if I do fishing achievement on one character then all character get CP for fishing, heck I could catch one rare fish on one character and another on a different character and eventually with the combined effort of all characters complete the fishing achievement.

This is nice because it doesn't require a character to be level 50 to earn CP, all characters can earn CP.

Cadwells silver/gold can be converted into Achievements which yeild CP so players get retroactive credit for that content (easy to track its already known if it is completed because the NPC no longer offers the quest).

More achievements can be added to the system and so can more constellations it is not very important that the number of Achievement points to completely fill the constellations are exactly equal...everyone will be under the same system...Mich like skill points excessive achievement points allows players to skip some tasks they don't care for....conversely if there are too few achievement points then players need to be careful where they put them (either is fine, this allows zos the flexibility of adding achievement points as they see fit and stars/constellations as they see fit. This prevents changes in one system from forcing changes in the other...this seems ideal from a developer point of view).

Because of this perhaps 1 CP for every two achievement points is not necessary, maybe its 10 ap=1 cp.

I think the real key here is that players can get credit for everything that there is an acheivement point for (not just stuff that can have an exp system implemented). Achievements can be tiered (like in this forum) so maybe if I catch 5 of each rare fish from each zone for additional AP, so I can do what I want and get credit but its slower the more I do, so diversifying into other gameplay activities will produce faster results (doing the first level acheivements instead of progressing deeper into the achievements). This allows a player to play however they want but encourages diversification in the activities they do as well.

This system can work with creative RP as well....since I could create a fisherman RP character who ooc focuses on the achievement and ic focuses on selling fish...then when all the fishing achieve are done he could die in a fishing accident and be rerolled into a new character (the account still gains the benefits from his efforts).

If this system were implemented then items purchased from the crown store should never give achievement points (they probably shouldn't anyways???? Unless you do a big spender achievement, lol).

In closing I have not seen a suggestion that credits RPers, Crafter's, Fishermen, Explorers, Molag Bal killers, dungeon Delvers, trails players, pvpers, altaholics, pet collectors, mount collectors,(insert achievement of your choice here...) Etc...

This system awards the most people for the most diverse set of activities and offers huge flexibility to both the players and the developers and can be applied retroactively (well I guess someone who did level 1 fishing acheivment on two characters would lose a little....but it's bound to be better...).

These are my thoughts, I know its probably not completely perfect, I know everyone who reads this will want something slightly different. I am not opposed to modifications. Instead of opposing the idea suggest how it could be improved. The only way to get something different than what is coming is if significant majority agree on a direction...this is accomplished by compromise, discussion, brainstorming ...and producing the best system possible ...not by trolling and flaming

Hope ya like it,

bertenburnyb16_ESO

no pls no
achievement points are the real grind, with the current system you can still play like you want and get CP, I dont want be be grinding undead for days, then nature creatures, and so on to get the monster hunter achie

TehMagnus

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

Aett_Thorn

TehMagnus wrote: »

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

May I ask why?

Basing it off of XP allows you to play through whatever content you want and still move forward.

Basing it off of achievements means that you're likely going to need to do content that you don't like in order to advance.

Faugaun

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

no pls no
achievement points are the real grind, with the current system you can still play like you want and get CP, I dont want be be grinding undead for days, then nature creatures, and so on to get the monster hunter achie

@bertenburnyb16_ESO‌

Thanks for the constructive feedback. I agree grinding undead for days sounds really, really boring. I think that is a benefit of the AP earns CP system. Consider if I don't want to do the "Kill x of y monsters" achievements then I don't have to there are tons of other achievements that I could choose to do instead and many of those sound much more fun than "Kill x of y monster".

Also I bet if you did all the other achievements you probably wouldn't have to grind the " Kill x of y monster" achievements as you would naturally complete them in the process of the other content.

Also since there is no need to have an exact number of champion point for the achievement points available, perhaps your concern is reason for there to be way more CP available through AP than is actually needed to eventually maxout the current system. Maybe double the AP available to earn CP to fill out everything (double would allow a player to skip 50% of the achievement system, aka the half of the game he/she likes least). To me that seems really cool.

@TehMagnus‌

What if you only had to earn half of all achieve points then you can focus on the 50% of content you like most, and I can and berten can and Aett_Thorn can. Invariably your favorite 50% and my favorite 50% will be different but that's the point we can play how we want.

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

May I ask why?

Basing it off of XP allows you to play through whatever content you want and still move forward.

Basing it off of achievements means that you're likely going to need to do content that you don't like in order to advance.

@Aett_Thorn‌

This is incorrect under the current system I get nothing for fishing, nothing for blacksmithing, nothing for leather working, nothing for enchanting, nothing for alchemy, nothing for finding all the skyshards in a zone, nothing for completing all delves in a zone, nothing for finding all the scenic sites in a zone, nothing for killing all bosses in a group delve, etc... Etc.. Etc... (Note: nothing in the form of CP, some of these give other benefits such as skyshards giving skill points or fishing unlocking a cool dye....)

Currently I am obligated to do one of about 6 things that give respectable amounts of experience (PvP, Raids, Dungeons, Dailies, Cadwells silver/gold, and straight up grinding...and well that's really just about it).... I think more people would enjoy having 500 options instead of 6 options...the other cool thing is that as they add content more achievements will be opened up providing further things that you might enjoy more than what is remaining.

Even better, Zos can look at what achievements people are doing and not doing and if people are not doing the "kill x of y monsters" achievements they can lower the requirements. If everyone is doing the fishing achievement then they can say "yeah the fishing achievement isn't the easiest way to get cp but people seem to really like fishing maybe we should look at expanding fishing" ...OK yeah so I doubt people will be fishing in flocks after this (I know I will only do fishing for the dye color) but it provides a really good metric to zos so they can provide us with content that we like, or so they can fix or make easier content that we do not like....all the while allowing us to play 500 ways instead of 6 ways.

That seems like a win to me.

Aett_Thorn

As I said, playing through CONTENT still gets you points under the current implementation. Yes, if you are a crafter, or a fisher, or something like that, you won't get any CP, but you will be building up enlightenment, which makes getting CP faster doing XP-granting stuff.

Under an achievement-based system, I will eventually run out of content that I like to do, and would be forced to do things that I don't want to do in order to progress in terms of CP.

You'd also run into issues where once you get the achievements, you stop being able to get CP until they release new achievements. Whereas you can always do any XP-granting content to keep getting CP in the current system.

Under the current situation, you can pick one or all of the following areas and get CP:

General PvE content (Grinding)
Trials/Raids
Dailies
Cadwell's Gold and Silver
PvP


Under an achievement-based system, you open up more options, yes, but either you get shut down earlier because you've run out of things that you like to do, or you have to partake in activities that you find boring or not fun in order to progress.

TehMagnus

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

May I ask why?

Basing it off of XP allows you to play through whatever content you want and still move forward.

Basing it off of achievements means that you're likely going to need to do content that you don't like in order to advance.

Because if it's based on XP, it becomes a grind. If it's based on content clearing, it becomes an objective. Sadly this will be hardly implementable since many people already have all the achievements and ZOS won't want to give them huge amount of CP and they won't want to redo the achievements.

@OP, I'd personally leave the CP to Xp grind and put the passives as a reward of some kind either through quests/dungeon completion or why not achievements linked to quest/dungeon completion.

AlexDougherty

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

God No!, No!, No!, No!.

Achievements are there for fun, you hunt them because you want to, not because they are obligatory.

Add to that the random aspect of some achievements, like the Generals of Molag Bal achievement, you could spend years trying to get that, while someone with more luck gets it in weeks.

All in all, this would make me quit, a redesign of how we get CPs, fair enough, just not achievement based.

Aerius_Sygale

Err, not to disappoint you, but a major function of dyes is as something to add some depth to some of the Achievements by being attached to a fair percentage of them...

So though I appreciate the good intention, I'm afraid I have to say nay to making post-game revolve almost entirely around tons of random Achievements. ^^;

Faugaun

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

As I said, playing through CONTENT still gets you points under the current implementation. Yes, if you are a crafter, or a fisher, or something like that, you won't get any CP, but you will be building up enlightenment, which makes getting CP faster doing XP-granting stuff.

Under an achievement-based system, I will eventually run out of content that I like to do, and would be forced to do things that I don't want to do in order to progress in terms of CP.

You'd also run into issues where once you get the achievements, you stop being able to get CP until they release new achievements. Whereas you can always do any XP-granting content to keep getting CP in the current system.

Under the current situation, you can pick one or all of the following areas and get CP:

General PvE content (Grinding)
Trials/Raids
Dailies
Cadwell's Gold and Silver
PvP


Under an achievement-based system, you open up more options, yes, but either you get shut down earlier because you've run out of things that you like to do, or you have to partake in activities that you find boring or not fun in order to progress.

@Aett_Thorn‌

This is yet another argument towards excessive AP available compared to CP needed to fill out the champion system and some of us don't enjoy only doing:

General PvE content (Grinding)
Trials/Raids
Dailies
Cadwell's Gold and Silver
PvP

And if you get shutdown earlier then what is the big problem? Name all the mmo where you can unlock everything? TSW is one that I can think of there are probably others but there are many more that have skill trees and give you a number of points and you can never have everything....its an intentional limitation and make the player think before putting points into abilities....

TehMagnus wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

May I ask why?

Basing it off of XP allows you to play through whatever content you want and still move forward.

Basing it off of achievements means that you're likely going to need to do content that you don't like in order to advance.

Because if it's based on XP, it becomes a grind. If it's based on content clearing, it becomes an objective. Sadly this will be hardly implementable since many people already have all the achievements and ZOS won't want to give them huge amount of CP and they won't want to redo the achievements.

@OP, I'd personally leave the CP to Xp grind and put the passives as a reward of some kind either through quests/dungeon completion or why not achievements linked to quest/dungeon completion.

@TehMagnus‌

So if the passives got given out from achievements....then why earn CP? Sorry I am confused...


I disagree about the implementable statement. There is no reason that the number of AP (which converts to CP) is equal to the number of CP necessary to fill out the system.

Zos could say 100 achievement points = 1 CP so a player with 15,000 achievement points can get 150 CP of (7200) if they rolled back to the old CP total.

Or 25 AP = 1 CP so someone with all achieve currently would get around 600 /7200 CP

Or 10 AP = 1 CP so someone with all achievements would get 1500/7200 ...that still leaves a long way to go.

Or 2 AP = 1 CP so someone with everything done would have 7500/7200 (zos might wanna make more stars in this instance, or leave it so players can ignore 300 points worth of achievements they don't like, can ignore more as additional content is added)

Zos can scale it to give out however they like based on what they think is a fair conversion of AP to CP...its no big deal

As players if we have more cp than we know what to do with, then that's OK, newer people will not be forced to do all of the content theyyndo not want to do.

Conversely if the current game only allows us to get 150/7200 CP then we must be very careful how we spend the available cp and respec for different builds...this is also OK

Hopefully a AP -> CP system will promote zos to create more content (that players like) and make profit (because this new content is sold as sub's or dlc).

Faugaun

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

God No!, No!, No!, No!.

Achievements are there for fun, you hunt them because you want to, not because they are obligatory.

Add to that the random aspect of some achievements, like the Generals of Molag Bal achievement, you could spend years trying to get that, while someone with more luck gets it in weeks.

All in all, this would make me quit, a redesign of how we get CPs, fair enough, just not achievement based.

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

Err, not to disappoint you, but a major function of dyes is as something to add some depth to some of the Achievements by being attached to a fair percentage of them...

So though I appreciate the good intention, I'm afraid I have to say nay to making post-game revolve almost entirely around tons of random Achievements. ^^;

@AlexDougherty‌ why do you need to get every single achievement point for this to work? How would you suggest a redesign of how we get CP? Frankly I think achievement linked seems interesting, on the flip side the current system is functional and doesn't necessarily need to be changed (though with so many people complaining in the forums ... Well they are convinced there are real problems) ...

@Aerius_Sygale‌ you would rather it revolve around the same 4-8 things that every other theme park mmo in the world revolves around....as opposed to opening it it to true sandbox ish flexibility?

@Eveyone ...It seems that my idea is unpopular...that's OK, how about you shoot out a solution, I would love to hear others ideas?

Non-concensus = no change

Wolfsspinne

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

Step 5) This is key in my opinion but I imagine others may disagree ...Make the entire acheivement system account wide. So if I do fishing achievement on one character then all character get CP for fishing, heck I could catch one rare fish on one character and another on a different character and eventually with the combined effort of all characters complete the fishing achievement.

The reactions to would be even worse...

There are "hardcore" PvP achievements as well as there are "hardcore" PvE achievements. So PvP'ers would continue to complain that they are forced to do PvE, and PvE'ers would start to complain about them being forced to do PvP.


As for removing Veteran Ranks:
They will, but not right now. Imagine the uproar if ZOS would announce that all the VR14s would loose every last bit of their beloved achieved progress...

Faugaun

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

Step 5) This is key in my opinion but I imagine others may disagree ...Make the entire acheivement system account wide. So if I do fishing achievement on one character then all character get CP for fishing, heck I could catch one rare fish on one character and another on a different character and eventually with the combined effort of all characters complete the fishing achievement.

The reactions to would be even worse...

There are "hardcore" PvP achievements as well as there are "hardcore" PvE achievements. So PvP'ers would continue to complain that they are forced to do PvE, and PvE'ers would start to complain about them being forced to do PvP.


As for removing Veteran Ranks:
They will, but not right now. Imagine the uproar if ZOS would announce that all the VR14s would loose every last bit of their beloved achieved progress...

@Wolfsspinne‌ even if there were excessive amounts of CP available and people could ignore 50% of the achievements and still get to maxed CS?

How would you modify the system to fix this problem?

Aerius_Sygale

It may be really dull to some players, but I don't mind XP grinding, it is how I have as many characters into Veteran Ranks as I so, with two being VR14, two VR6, and one VR1.

Also, I've played Disgaea games (which, odds are, probably almost everyone here has never heard of, sadly), which for their hardcore players can become an absolutely huge grind, each character having a max level of 9999, and being able to level your items up to as high as level 300, so I can do grinds, heh.

Faugaun

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

It may be really dull to some players, but I don't mind XP grinding, it is how I have as many characters into Veteran Ranks as I so, with two being VR14, two VR6, and one VR1.

Also, I've played Disgaea games (which, odds are, probably almost everyone here has never heard of, sadly), which for their hardcore players can become an absolutely huge grind, each character having a max level of 9999, and being able to level your items up to as high as level 300, so I can do grinds, heh.

@Aerius_Sygale‌ but why should other players be obligated to grind ? They may not enjoy grinding.

If you like grinding I'm sure they could implement further levels (for appropriate cp of course) of grinding style achievements ...you know add 5 more levels to the "kill x of y monsters" quests or "complete this trial x times" or "do all Aldemeri Domionion quests on x characters" ..."kill x players in PvP" "kill x templars in PvP" "kill x sorcerers in PvP" "kill x ep in PvP" "use a catapult x times in PvP" ....each of these could have levels "use catapult 1x" "use catapult 5x" "use catapult 100 x" "use catapult 250x" and the reward could be reasonable...maybe 5 points for tier 1, 10 points for tier 2, 15 points for tier 3, 20 points for tier 4 ....100 points for tier 20.

Plus as they releas new zones then will come more achievements ...the cp reward can be tied to the approximate time input necessary for the achievement and scale the difficulty appropriately.


@Everyone, here is a different approach significantly increase the experience gained for completing achievements and leave the experience system in place but allow achievement completion to be an alternate to the 4-8 activities that we are currently limited to utilize for gaining exp.

Wolfsspinne

@Faugaun‌

Faugaun wrote: »

@Wolfsspinne‌ even if there were excessive amounts of CP available and people could ignore 50% of the achievements and still get to maxed CS?

If they can't get every last point they will feel broken...
A single point out of reach would be enough for them to cry, that's what all the fuss is about right now.

Faugaun wrote: »

How would you modify the system to fix this problem?

I wouldn't exactly say that it's "to modify the system"... Here's what I'd do:

Follow the designers vision.
Because that is the only one way that can ever leads to a good and consistent game.

If it's the designers vision to have year long grind then let it be year long grind.
If it's the designers vision to have all progress done on day one then let is be that way.

But if it's the designers vision to please all possible players at once...
then screw that designer 'cause his game is doomed to be crap.

Tapio75

I read until i noticed the word "account wide" and got dishgusted about the whole idea. Account wide *** should never been born in any game.

Faugaun

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

@Faugaun‌

Faugaun wrote: »

@Wolfsspinne‌ even if there were excessive amounts of CP available and people could ignore 50% of the achievements and still get to maxed CS?

If they can't get every last point they will feel broken...
A single point out of reach would be enough for them to cry, that's what all the fuss is about right now.

Faugaun wrote: »

How would you modify the system to fix this problem?

I wouldn't exactly say that it's "to modify the system"... Here's what I'd do:

Follow the designers vision.
Because that is the only one way that can ever leads to a good and consistent game.

If it's the designers vision to have year long grind then let it be year long grind.
If it's the designers vision to have all progress done on day one then let is be that way.

But if it's the designers vision to please all possible players at once...
then screw that designer 'cause his game is doomed to be crap.

@Wolfsspinne‌ reference the bolded portion I think we are not communicating (I am saying its perfectly fine to design the system (if the Dev choose) such that if you complete every achievement in the game you might have say 100,000 CP but you only need 7200 to get everything in CS.... That is an OK scenario.

It is also OK if all the content to do so is not released yet (providing people don't en masse run into the problem of not engough content, this is a separate issue). This isn't much different than the current system where it may take years to complete....I hope that during those years....we get additional content ...so in essence to get there still requires unreleased content.

All my suggestion does is remove the need to do said 4-8 tasks in oder to progress and instead opens up many other progression routes.


Reference the non bolded portion. It was funny but didn't really add to the discussion. There are many possible routes to lead to a good consistent game.

Faugaun

Tapio75 wrote: »

I read until i noticed the word "account wide" and got dishgusted about the whole idea. Account wide *** should never been born in any game.

@tapio75 OK so each character would need to complete their own acheivements that's reasonable and I would be fine with that, but that would require that the CS system become character specific ...or maybe a person could do fishing achievements on 50 alts and it credits the account wide CP system...any of these are fine by me tbh.

Thanks for participating with constructive criticism

MrGhosty

It's a clever idea but I don't think so.

What I would like to see is a system where we are rewarded comparable xp for the activities we do like to do so that all aspects are equal. This would require balancing but it should be possible for me to level a character to lvl 50 by doing nothing but refining ore.

I use that as an extreme example but providing unified xp gains across all activities seems like it would reward all players equally and make earning cps an almost no downtime activity.

You can quest for awhile, then do some crafting, maybe go gather some skyshards and then back to questing. During that period of time you should be earning champion points constantly with the only proviso being that you had to be actually doing something (so I guess it doesn't technically reward Rpers but the story is its own reward yeah?)

technohic

MrGhosty wrote: »

It's a clever idea but I don't think so.

What I would like to see is a system where we are rewarded comparable xp for the activities we do like to do so that all aspects are equal. This would require balancing but it should be possible for me to level a character to lvl 50 by doing nothing but refining ore.

I use that as an extreme example but providing unified xp gains across all activities seems like it would reward all players equally and make earning cps an almost no downtime activity.

You can quest for awhile, then do some crafting, maybe go gather some skyshards and then back to questing. During that period of time you should be earning champion points constantly with the only proviso being that you had to be actually doing something (so I guess it doesn't technically reward Rpers but the story is its own reward yeah?)

This would be awesome but I think it would be hard to do. Still; if they could even come close, it would be about all I could have asked for in the champion system or the VR system either one.

Tapio75

Faugaun wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

I read until i noticed the word "account wide" and got dishgusted about the whole idea. Account wide *** should never been born in any game.

@tapio75 OK so each character would need to complete their own acheivements that's reasonable and I would be fine with that, but that would require that the CS system become character specific ...or maybe a person could do fishing achievements on 50 alts and it credits the account wide CP system...any of these are fine by me tbh.

Thanks for participating with constructive criticism

I think everything like this should be character only progression.. But my vision is, that all the levels are "removed" as a requirement to enter any level or do any specific activity in the game. In this part character should be scaled to content. We still would get XP to gain levels but levels would only come as means to progress skills and passives. In addition to that, the new CP system would work from the beginning of game, you would gain CP faster and that would be used to improve the character.. To make it more interesting, all skills and passives should be available to everyone and spellcraft would add to that. Then we could create what ever class we wish to make, combine any skillset, continue to prigress character in different ways that MMO genre is used to.

In my vision ESO would be more like open world sandbox RPG with support for massive number of players.
More like traditional TES than MMO. PVP issues? Yes, this is tough, but i do believe that developers can balance skills enough and players in the end would balance PVP by using those builds that are proven to work best in PVP, if one chooses to differ from that, so be it. People should have permission to choose to be bad intentionally.

Faugaun

MrGhosty wrote: »

It's a clever idea but I don't think so.

What I would like to see is a system where we are rewarded comparable xp for the activities we do like to do so that all aspects are equal. This would require balancing but it should be possible for me to level a character to lvl 50 by doing nothing but refining ore.

I use that as an extreme example but providing unified xp gains across all activities seems like it would reward all players equally and make earning cps an almost no downtime activity.

You can quest for awhile, then do some crafting, maybe go gather some skyshards and then back to questing. During that period of time you should be earning champion points constantly with the only proviso being that you had to be actually doing something (so I guess it doesn't technically reward Rpers but the story is its own reward yeah?)

@MrGhosty‌

This is a vision I can defiantly appreciate ....even the rp functions should be doable I mean can they not detect that players move and speak etc...use the combined information to sniff out cheaters, but don't punish the players who are active ... Maybe if the player community reported abusers which zos could investigate....I would rather see RPers get progression for rping and a few abusers afk walk against a wall than the opposite.

Tapio75 wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

I read until i noticed the word "account wide" and got dishgusted about the whole idea. Account wide *** should never been born in any game.

@tapio75 OK so each character would need to complete their own acheivements that's reasonable and I would be fine with that, but that would require that the CS system become character specific ...or maybe a person could do fishing achievements on 50 alts and it credits the account wide CP system...any of these are fine by me tbh.

Thanks for participating with constructive criticism

I think everything like this should be character only progression.. But my vision is, that all the levels are "removed" as a requirement to enter any level or do any specific activity in the game. In this part character should be scaled to content. We still would get XP to gain levels but levels would only come as means to progress skills and passives. In addition to that, the new CP system would work from the beginning of game, you would gain CP faster and that would be used to improve the character.. To make it more interesting, all skills and passives should be available to everyone and spellcraft would add to that. Then we could create what ever class we wish to make, combine any skillset, continue to prigress character in different ways that MMO genre is used to.

In my vision ESO would be more like open world sandbox RPG with support for massive number of players.
More like traditional TES than MMO. PVP issues? Yes, this is tough, but i do believe that developers can balance skills enough and players in the end would balance PVP by using those builds that are proven to work best in PVP, if one chooses to differ from that, so be it. People should have permission to choose to be bad intentionally.

@Tapio75‌ this is another vision I could totally be onboard with....I think it mirrors my achievements based CP in some aspects but differs in others. I'm a guy in his 30s 3 kids and I'll tell ya what Minecraft with my 8 yoa is fun....why because I can do whatever I want. Just saying ESO can do better...it has a lot of things going for it that i like more than Minecraft too.

@Everyone I guess what a lot of MMOs these days might be getting wrong (or maybe I am wrong lol). Is that the length of time to progress is unimportant in if people stay or go. What is important is the community, and having stuff to do. I think a lot of bugginess can be overlooked if there is plenty of level appropriate content. If I walked into. Dungeon and it bugged but there were enough dungeons that I never needed to return to the previous dungeon then the fact that it was bugged is of small concern.

AlexDougherty

Faugaun wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

God No!, No!, No!, No!.

Achievements are there for fun, you hunt them because you want to, not because they are obligatory.

Add to that the random aspect of some achievements, like the Generals of Molag Bal achievement, you could spend years trying to get that, while someone with more luck gets it in weeks.

All in all, this would make me quit, a redesign of how we get CPs, fair enough, just not achievement based.

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

Err, not to disappoint you, but a major function of dyes is as something to add some depth to some of the Achievements by being attached to a fair percentage of them...

So though I appreciate the good intention, I'm afraid I have to say nay to making post-game revolve almost entirely around tons of random Achievements. ^^;

@AlexDougherty‌ why do you need to get every single achievement point for this to work? How would you suggest a redesign of how we get CP? Frankly I think achievement linked seems interesting, on the flip side the current system is functional and doesn't necessarily need to be changed (though with so many people complaining in the forums ... Well they are convinced there are real problems) ...

Because after you get the fun ones, which I am still going after (shouldn't have started three main characters, now four), you would have to go after the others to get the maximum.

Yes I get that for a while we would have tons of achievements to chase, but that would soon deminish and we would be left with the awkward ones that are plain simply unfair at the moment.

I appreciate that you were looking for a fun way to get CPs instead of the grind we have ahead, but I really don't think Achievements are the way to go here.

Given how long it will take for us to max out our CPs, I think they simply need to review the rate at which we earn them, the current predictions say a minimum of five years to max it out, which lets be frank is far far too long.

Faugaun

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

God No!, No!, No!, No!.

Achievements are there for fun, you hunt them because you want to, not because they are obligatory.

Add to that the random aspect of some achievements, like the Generals of Molag Bal achievement, you could spend years trying to get that, while someone with more luck gets it in weeks.

All in all, this would make me quit, a redesign of how we get CPs, fair enough, just not achievement based.

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

Err, not to disappoint you, but a major function of dyes is as something to add some depth to some of the Achievements by being attached to a fair percentage of them...

So though I appreciate the good intention, I'm afraid I have to say nay to making post-game revolve almost entirely around tons of random Achievements. ^^;

@AlexDougherty‌ why do you need to get every single achievement point for this to work? How would you suggest a redesign of how we get CP? Frankly I think achievement linked seems interesting, on the flip side the current system is functional and doesn't necessarily need to be changed (though with so many people complaining in the forums ... Well they are convinced there are real problems) ...

Because after you get the fun ones, which I am still going after (shouldn't have started three main characters, now four), you would have to go after the others to get the maximum.

Yes I get that for a while we would have tons of achievements to chase, but that would soon deminish and we would be left with the awkward ones that are plain simply unfair at the moment.

I appreciate that you were looking for a fun way to get CPs instead of the grind we have ahead, but I really don't think Achievements are the way to go here.

Given how long it will take for us to max out our CPs, I think they simply need to review the rate at which we earn them, the current predictions say a minimum of five years to max it out, which lets be frank is far far too long.

I guess I am still missing your complaint ....I mean if doing all the achievements gets me say 100,000 CP but I can only use 10,000 in the CS system why am I obligated to do ones that I don't enjoy?

(I am envisioning longterm development of this system, not just current achievements)

Audigy

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

May I ask why?

Basing it off of XP allows you to play through whatever content you want and still move forward.

Basing it off of achievements means that you're likely going to need to do content that you don't like in order to advance.

His concern might be that XP is not equal, while achievements are.

An undaunted achievement is always an undaunted achievement and takes about the same time.

Running a dungeon however can take much more time than farming a grind spot in Craglorn.

Since I am not on the PTS I am not sure about the following, but I think you don't get XP in a valuable way for being a tradesmen or crafter. You either have to quest or run dungeons or grind mobs to level your CPs.

Faugaun

Audigy wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

I hate achievement grinding but I'd prefer getting CP through achievements than through XP.

May I ask why?

Basing it off of XP allows you to play through whatever content you want and still move forward.

Basing it off of achievements means that you're likely going to need to do content that you don't like in order to advance.

His concern might be that XP is not equal, while achievements are.

An undaunted achievement is always an undaunted achievement and takes about the same time.

Running a dungeon however can take much more time than farming a grind spot in Craglorn.

Since I am not on the PTS I am not sure about the following, but I think you don't get XP in a valuable way for being a tradesmen or crafter. You either have to quest or run dungeons or grind mobs to level your CPs.

A redesign like this would eliminate grind spots (grinding in its current state at least would cease to exist). The achievement points offered for an achievement could be adjusted to approximately equal the time input to acquire them.

Edit: In this way doing one achievement vs another would be largely equal, but you would gain flexibility in how you earned your progression.

Rosveen

So you want to force people into activities they dislike or are unable to do because it's the only way of character progression? No thanks, this is a terrible idea, much worse than the current Champion system.

Faugaun

Rosveen wrote: »

So you want to force people into activities they dislike or are unable to do because it's the only way of character progression? No thanks, this is a terrible idea, much worse than the current Champion system.

@Rosveen‌

How is giving people hundreds of options forcing them into something? Compared to people only having 4-8 options currently?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

its supposd to be a passive system, you play how you want and whatever you do you get xp and that translates into cp. creating REQUIREMENTS is the exact opposite, its is no longer passive and forces people to play a certain way. can anyone possible want that? I seriously can not imagine anybody wanting that unless they are a self serving completionist who just wants an edge over those who are not.
the Biggest problem with this system is some gamers obsession that they have eveything BEFORE they are competitive, its actually their attitude that is a problem not the progression system. they cp system does not require that, half the perks wont help your build and funneling all into one area has serious diminishing returns.

sorry but two thumbs down I would not play your game.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Faugaun wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

So you want to force people into activities they dislike or are unable to do because it's the only way of character progression? No thanks, this is a terrible idea, much worse than the current Champion system.

@Rosveen‌

How is giving people hundreds of options forcing them into something? Compared to people only having 4-8 options currently?

if its the only way to get cp then its the only way to progress, if im at endgame and just want to pvp how is forcing me to do other things in order to progress not forcing me? should achievement give xp so its a valid way to progress? sure why not. should every other way be eliminated? thats !@#$%^& crazy talk.