On Overall 1.6 Nerf Issue, It's Time To Stand Up And Say "Enough Is Enough"

nerevarine1138

Joejudas wrote: »

Some of play this game as min/ maxers who like to do end game content...is that a play style thats not allowed. I pay for this game with legal currency just like everyone else. If they are saying that min/maxing isnt allowed this game is about to have some serious issues.

Min/maxing is always allowed. No one is taking that playstyle away from you. That's an absolutely ridiculous assertion.

Joejudas

If 1.6 goes live with the current system ill post the screenshot of me unsubbing as proof. i got nothing else to say.

Valencer

Well, okay.

If you won't even be open to the idea of 1.6 reworking the balance from the ground up, there's not much to discuss, is there?

All I'm seeing here is "My build doesn't work as well anymore, so ZOS has it in for me. Sub cancelled".
My guess is they never intended some of the content to be so easily beatable with certain builds the way it is in 1.5. There's some things that have fundamentally changed in 1.6, like stamina costs of blocking. No amount of champion points will fully get you back to the way it was in 1.5.

Sharkano

It's not just a build issue. Rather, it's a basic overall nerf. Again: On PTS put the CP points anywhere you like, and then go fight the same level mobs you were fighting before. They will own you. They took a nerfbat to everyone, period. They should fix for 1.6 live. If all they did was bump every stat 10X to run the constellation system, no one would be having these problems.

Feidam

Joejudas wrote: »

What new stuff ? because my gear, stats and skills all got nerfed and im suppose to get it back by leveling into a new system that isnt providing me anything new to do...and the only way i can gain exp toward a cp point is to grind....because you can pvp all day and not get a single point.It also takes way to long. This isnt a rebalancing....ill call it what it needs to be called....its a purge of the end game community thats what it is. Pay2Win will be next

The other thing you can do, is constructively provide feedback on the PTS regarding the rate of cp gain. Instead on creating inflammatory style post to create a frenzy. Also, you have to step back and ask yourself just how fast I am expecting to earn CP. Keeping in mind that too fast a rate at acquiring the CP kills the purpose of the system.

Furthermore, they had to squash some of the builds on live as they were utterly ridiculous. They are attempting to rebalance the game which hasn't been so balanced. Which means growing pains.

And for everyone decrying how dare they do this to paying customers! Well, just about every major mmo I've ever played has readjusted power levels. It is the way of the world with mmos.

Valencer

Sharkano wrote: »

It's not just a build issue. Rather, it's a basic overall nerf. Again: On PTS put the CP points anywhere you like, and then go fight the same level mobs you were fighting before. They will own you. They took a nerfbat to everyone, period. They should fix for 1.6 live. If all they did was bump every stat 10X to run the constellation system, no one would be having these problems.

If we get the 1.5 power level + champion system, the content will be way too easy.

AshySamurai

Valencer wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

It's not just a build issue. Rather, it's a basic overall nerf. Again: On PTS put the CP points anywhere you like, and then go fight the same level mobs you were fighting before. They will own you. They took a nerfbat to everyone, period. They should fix for 1.6 live. If all they did was bump every stat 10X to run the constellation system, no one would be having these problems.

If we get the 1.5 power level + champion system, the content will be way too easy.

It's better to increase content difficult rather than nerfing characters and sets.

Elsonso

Y'all need to conserve your energy!

This is PTS version 1 for this Update and it is all about checking the game balance in a player environment.

The next change to PTS will have all sorts of changes that need to be looked at.

Sneak_Thief

While I haven't tested all aspects including class nerfs, I do in generally really like 1.6. BUT there are a couple nerfs that absolutely killed skills that I can't agree with. Which is why I posted this hoping ZOS would fix it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/148862/ring-of-preservation-ring-of-protection-zos-why-did-you-just-kill-this-skill

kewl

ContraTempo wrote: »

From what I have seen, MMOs always put out a stream of nerfs. The top players always end up more powerful than the game designers imagined so they scale it all back a bit to put the challenge and balance back in the game.

I'm not sure it really works though; some players really are just that much better than the average so you can never really balance it out. And those in between get caught in the squeeze.

But then, our toons are immortal...

Especially in an action combat based MMO.

Arki

Joejudas wrote: »

If 1.6 goes live with the current system ill post the screenshot of me unsubbing as proof. i got nothing else to say.

I don't think anyone would need or request that proof, seeing how you have stated your plan of action in a number of threads now

Xendyn

Then why not just make the content harder instead of wrecking everyones builds and nerfing all fo the stats?

Oh ya, that's cause for ZOS it's not about the challenge. It's about how many hours they can get us to grind CP and how many "boosters" they can sell us in the cash shop while doing so.[/quote]


Exactly.
Remember When Doshia was a benchmark for how good your build was?
*cry* It's too hard! *nerf*

Remember when Gutstripper would rip you a new one?
*cry* It's too hard! *nerf*

Remember when the Silver and Gold Vet areas required careful planning to not die to the trash mob pulls?
*cry* It's too hard! *nerf*

You want a challenge? Fine put the game back the way it was instead of nerfing us back to Oblivion so we match the lowered gameplay now.

We would hear the screaming all the way to Oblivion.

Vahrokh

Valencer wrote: »

Well, okay.

If you won't even be open to the idea of 1.6 reworking the balance from the ground up, there's not much to discuss, is there?

All I'm seeing here is "My build doesn't work as well anymore, so ZOS has it in for me. Sub cancelled".

It's not about a build. It's about the attitude.

Soulshine

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

Rott wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Rott wrote: »

Think about it:

ZOS has not only hit you with a huge nerf bat but has then asked you to regrind what you have just lost... On the same tired content you have been doing for the last 4-6 months...

... And on top of this demanding that you to pay for the pleasure!!

You can try and spin it however you like but that to me sounds like a con.

Aren't they not demanding you pay for the pleasure now? I mean, complain about this all you want, but the whole point of the payment model transition is that you don't need to pay to play the game.

Also, I genuinely hope that ZO doesn't listen to you guys. Adding some challenge back in the game is a good thing.

And yet my post had nothing to do about the challenge and everything to do with lack of content.

If a developer is going to tweak the end game and ask you to regrind what you have lost then the very least they should be doing is offering new areas and dungeons to do it in. Like a sweetener.

Which then makes me wonder what the subs were for because It definitely hasn't been used to fund content.

The lack of endgame content is a valid one, they have and will surely lose alot of dedicated players because of it.

But if they didn't rebalance the game now but just focused on pumping out new endgame content, it would be facerolled again and people would start complaining like before. The rebalancing had to happen imo. It should have happened much sooner of course, but I see no use in complaining about what might have been - that doesn't lead anywhere.

In essence:

Should there be more endgame content for both pvp and pve?
- Absolutely and its way overdue.

Is the rebalancing of the game a good thing?
- Yes.

Does the combination hurt those that are comfortable with their builds and just want to continue on the same progression path they where on before 1.6?
- Yes.

Some will take this as an opportunity to do new stuff, learn new stuff. Some will feel betrayed. How you choose to react is entierly up to you.

What new stuff ? because my gear, stats and skills all got nerfed and im suppose to get it back by leveling into a new system that isnt providing me anything new to do...and the only way i can gain exp toward a cp point is to grind....because you can pvp all day and not get a single point.It also takes way to long. This isnt a rebalancing....ill call it what it needs to be called....its a purge of the end game community thats what it is. Pay2Win will be next

Stuff as new ways to play the game, new builds etc. Not stuff as in brand new content/zones.

If you read my post you would see that I agreed that there should be more endgame content. BTW also agree that PVP should not give less CP/EXP then PVE. Let's try to seperate issues here and not cry over everything at once, then the whole dicussions devolves into ... well how things usually ends up in these forums...

My point is that this had to happen now, before new content was released, or history would just repeat itself with everything being facerolled.

So i restate my post: "Does the combination hurt those that are comfortable with their builds and just want to continue on the same progression path they where on before 1.6?
- Yes.

Some will take this as an opportunity to do new stuff, learn new stuff. Some will feel betrayed. How you choose to react is entierly up to you."

and i say again...punishing the people who put the most time into game with these massive nerfs to armor and stats is going to destroy the game.

No one is being "punished". It's not like lower-level characters suddenly became comparatively stronger.

If their idea is to make the game more challenging, then that's a good thing. Stop thinking of this as a numbers game, and you'll probably be happier.

Lower level characters are most definitely better off in 1.6 specifically because of the CP allocation they are allowed. As I have stated in another thread, I have copied over vr14s and well as lower lvl vr and non-vr characters to PTS. Played them all to compare. By far, the difference in non-maxed characters being more effective and stronger with 70cps to spend compared to their current capabilities on live is very noticable, which cannot be ignored. Conversely, the reduction on overall abilities for maxed vr14s is quite noticeable as is the slower rate at which they can earn CPs due to no new content to run.

Further, there is nothing challenging in update 1.6, unless you call running some math for yourself to determine where the heck your values are at this time and how you can best assign your points an issue. It isn't; it takes less than five minutes to see the x10 they claimed is NOT what they did.

As is, the opportunity for challenging content in this game took a massive nose dive even in beta and has only gotten repeated nerf bats since, given the incessant whinning of people that [insert complaint here] is too difficult and "cannot be beaten."

This is not about not wanting a challenge, not wanting to change a build, skills, rotations, or even a fundamental inability to adapt. Any of us still here have proven repeatedly that we have and can adapt what we've been doing because we keep getting these changes thrown at us and yet keep adapting what we do and playing because we have loved the game and had fun.

The larger issue is that the CP system is thus far a very lazy translation of their current vertical progression into a system that is not directly supportive of the end game level progress to date, and further introduces diminishing returns when they claimed wanting to get rid of them. Couple this with the snail's pace at which CPs are earned and with the total lack of new zones and fresh content by which to earn more CPs and you have a very flawed application of this system.

If they would actually listen to feedback we have been providing on PTS perhaps it can be remedied and improved, but I for one will not be just sitting back and pretending it is all fine just the way it is -- it isn't by a long shot.

Alphashado

I still haven't noticed an huge change in performance. I mean yes the stat differences are noticable etc, but I've played my V2 NB, my V5 DK, and my V14 Templar on the PTS and with several different rotations I am still destroying everything with all 3 classes.

I haven't tried any Dungeons or Trials yet, but just in general vs Mobs in the wild, I haven't had any issues at all. Still able to solo Spell Scare easily with my Templar and V5- DK. Templar DPS seems to be as good or BETTER than it is in the liver version, and my V2 NB is mowing through mobs like butter.

It's possible I am missing something here, but honestly I don't see anything nearly drastic enough to freak out about.

This is with 70 CP on all my characters. Perhaps that is the difference? But it seems like many people that are upset have level capped characters which means they should have plenty of CP to start out with.

Believe me, I am the last person that wants to stick up for ZoS right now. I dunno. I just don't see anything drastic with my own two eyes and my own characters on the PTS. If anything, I've noticed quite a few changes that will likely be considered OP if 1.6 goes live like this.

The only thing that annoys me so far is the change to Ult generation. I don't like being forced to use a light/heavy attack when it doesn't feel right during the flow of combat.

Tonnopesce

Joejudas wrote: »

If 1.6 goes live with the current system ill post the screenshot of me unsubbing as proof. i got nothing else to say.

Can i have your stuff........PLZ ç-ç

Joejudas

I don't think people defending this system see magnitude of what alienating the higher level player base is going to do.

Joejudas

Alphashado wrote: »

I still haven't noticed an huge change in performance. I mean yes the stat differences are noticable etc, but I've played my V2 NB, my V5 DK, and my V14 Templar on the PTS and with several different rotations I am still destroying everything with all 3 classes.

I haven't tried any Dungeons or Trials yet, but just in general vs Mobs in the wild, I haven't had any issues at all. Still able to solo Spell Scare easily with my Templar and V5- DK. Templar DPS seems to be as good or BETTER than it is in the liver version, and my V2 NB is mowing through mobs like butter.

It's possible I am missing something here, but honestly I don't see anything nearly drastic enough to freak out about.

This is with 70 CP on all my characters. Perhaps that is the difference? But it seems like many people that are upset have level capped characters which means they should have plenty of CP to start out with.

Believe me, I am the last person that wants to stick up for ZoS right now. I dunno. I just don't see anything drastic with my own two eyes and my own characters on the PTS. If anything, I've noticed quite a few changes that will likely be considered OP if 1.6 goes live like this.

The only thing that annoys me so far is the change to Ult generation. I don't like being forced to use a light/heavy attack when it doesn't feel right during the flow of combat.

It's not plenty of cp....it's a joke

TheLaw

I agree and disagree with this post. All MMO's take similar action overtime. In our case, it's just become a grind to get our stats to higher levels, rather than anything meaningful.

At the end of the day, there's really nothing fun or meaningful to do in ESO anymore. The PVE is no longer a challenge and AvA has become a boring zergfest.

What we need is more PVP and PVE content. There's no point in "progressing" our characters (over and over again) when there's nothing new to do.

Razzak

Don't stand up. No one at ZOS will see it, and even if they did, they wouldn't care. Do the only thing they care about. Stop paying them.

Alphashado

Joejudas wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I still haven't noticed an huge change in performance. I mean yes the stat differences are noticable etc, but I've played my V2 NB, my V5 DK, and my V14 Templar on the PTS and with several different rotations I am still destroying everything with all 3 classes.

I haven't tried any Dungeons or Trials yet, but just in general vs Mobs in the wild, I haven't had any issues at all. Still able to solo Spell Scare easily with my Templar and V5- DK. Templar DPS seems to be as good or BETTER than it is in the liver version, and my V2 NB is mowing through mobs like butter.

It's possible I am missing something here, but honestly I don't see anything nearly drastic enough to freak out about.

This is with 70 CP on all my characters. Perhaps that is the difference? But it seems like many people that are upset have level capped characters which means they should have plenty of CP to start out with.

Believe me, I am the last person that wants to stick up for ZoS right now. I dunno. I just don't see anything drastic with my own two eyes and my own characters on the PTS. If anything, I've noticed quite a few changes that will likely be considered OP if 1.6 goes live like this.

The only thing that annoys me so far is the change to Ult generation. I don't like being forced to use a light/heavy attack when it doesn't feel right during the flow of combat.

It's not plenty of cp....it's a joke

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree then. If anything I see alot of OP skills in 1.6

I have 3 VR characters and none of them feel gimped to me on the PTS. /shrug

olsborg

There are things I dislike and like about 1.6.

The only real problem I have with 1.6 is the fact that pure pvpers will gain 1 cp a week, but the pve grinders will gain 1 a day.

Gemseed

olsborg wrote: »

There are things I dislike and like about 1.6.

The only real problem I have with 1.6 is the fact that pure pvpers will gain 1 cp a week, but the pve grinders will gain 1 a day.

Valid.

Maybe a new sort of PvP-incentive system designed around gaining CP would be in order.

A sort of daily? Or maybe just increased XP in PvP overall?

Joejudas

Gemseed wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

There are things I dislike and like about 1.6.

The only real problem I have with 1.6 is the fact that pure pvpers will gain 1 cp a week, but the pve grinders will gain 1 a day.

Valid.

Maybe a new sort of PvP-incentive system designed around gaining CP would be in order.

A sort of daily? Or maybe just increased XP in PvP overall?

another game has those in case you didnt know...its called WOW. Its a bad idea...and it will mean people will just log in do the daily and log out. We can call it rebalancing though right ?

nerevarine1138

AshySamurai wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

It's not just a build issue. Rather, it's a basic overall nerf. Again: On PTS put the CP points anywhere you like, and then go fight the same level mobs you were fighting before. They will own you. They took a nerfbat to everyone, period. They should fix for 1.6 live. If all they did was bump every stat 10X to run the constellation system, no one would be having these problems.

If we get the 1.5 power level + champion system, the content will be way too easy.

It's better to increase content difficult rather than nerfing characters and sets.

Why?

If it's the same amount of difficulty, why are people less likely to whine in scenario A?

Joejudas wrote: »

I don't think people defending this system see magnitude of what alienating the higher level player base is going to do.

VR14 NB here. Been playing since early release. Luckily, since I don't consider all gaming to be some kind of weird measuring contest, I don't care about having content actually be difficult. But as with all the other good content that was scaled down into Oblivion before this, ZO will most likely listen to you. So take heart: you'll be steamrolling through content in no time, because you'll get your way, the exact same way you did with Doshia, Gutsripper, the VR system, etc.

Wahee

A lot of people in this thread are looking at this the wrong way. For CP to provide a meaningful benefit they need to add significant power, and they do. 100 points in a specific passive can give up to a 25% bonus to things like regen and cost reduction.

The reduction in stats was necessary to make room for this, otherwise it would be possible to create builds that could effectively break the game (infinite dodge roll, infinite mana, one shots in PvP, etc.)

It just isn't possible to allow players to keep their current power level and also make CP's give a significant bonus without breaking the game.

Joejudas

Wahee wrote: »

A lot of people in this thread are looking at this the wrong way. For CP to provide a meaningful benefit they need to add significant power, and they do. 100 points in a specific passive can give up to a 25% bonus to things like regen and cost reduction.

The reduction in stats was necessary to make room for this, otherwise it would be possible to create builds that could effectively break the game (infinite dodge roll, infinite mana, one shots in PvP, etc.)

It just isn't possible to allow players to keep their current power level and also make CP's give a significant bonus without breaking the game.

taking away our progress and makingit take 4 or 5 hours a point is the wrong choice...they could have made the passives in the champion system less powerful. i took the time to get my gear....i havent taken the time yet to get that cp passive. taking away what i already have was a bad idea

Wahee

Joejudas wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

A lot of people in this thread are looking at this the wrong way. For CP to provide a meaningful benefit they need to add significant power, and they do. 100 points in a specific passive can give up to a 25% bonus to things like regen and cost reduction.

The reduction in stats was necessary to make room for this, otherwise it would be possible to create builds that could effectively break the game (infinite dodge roll, infinite mana, one shots in PvP, etc.)

It just isn't possible to allow players to keep their current power level and also make CP's give a significant bonus without breaking the game.

taking away our progress and makingit take 4 or 5 hours a point is the wrong choice...they could have made the passives in the champion system less powerful. i took the time to get my gear....i havent taken the time yet to get that cp passive. taking away what i already have was a bad idea

Oh, I agree that it sucks to lose effectiveness. But what do you expect them to do? If you got to keep the same stats CP's would need to be completely meaningless to prevent game breaking builds from being possible. They wanted the new CP system to be meaningful and took the only real possible step to make that happen. It sucks, sure, but the alternative was a big shiny new progression system that effectively did nothing. How would players have responded in that case?

I totally agree that the grind to get CP is a bit ridiculous and hopefully is lowered, but the reduction in stats was necessary.

Joejudas

Whats my incentive to put any time in to the game now. I play the game to be the most powerful and do end game raids. If the game is going to punish me now for having high stats then what will stop them from doing it in the future

nerevarine1138

Joejudas wrote: »

Whats my incentive to put any time in to the game now. I play the game to be the most powerful and do end game raids. If the game is going to punish me now for having high stats then what will stop them from doing it in the future

The game feels more like an Elder Scrolls game with every tweak they make, the difficulty change included. Your inability to handle a game where you aren't rolling through content isn't a development problem.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]