On Overall 1.6 Nerf Issue, It's Time To Stand Up And Say "Enough Is Enough"

Robocles

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

I dont agree at all. they didnt rebalance the game with the fotm builds in mind, they overhauled the whole system and its balanced around the new progression system. I for one like it.

Balanced. That's an interesting way to put it.

ZOS_MichelleA

Hey there, folks. We appreciate feedback, whether positive or negative, but let's please keep the conversation constructive. Resorting to personal attacks or jabs helps no one when trying to share your opinions on the changes to balance in Update 6.

Additionally, please try and keep to the topic of this thread rather than derailing it (in other words, please end the "toon vs. character" debate).

Thank you!

Bouvin

Robocles wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

I dont agree at all. they didnt rebalance the game with the fotm builds in mind, they overhauled the whole system and its balanced around the new progression system. I for one like it.

Balanced. That's an interesting way to put it.

New progressions system?

Let me know when you actually earn 10 cp (beyond your conversion CP).

Then let me know when you grind 100.

Then let me know when you grind 360, because that's what it is going to take to unlock any of the top tiers in the constellations.

Enlightened, you can get CP at 1/hour. But you aren't going to be enlightened all the time and it's going to take 4 hours for 1 cp. So let's say you get 25% of your CP while enlightened and 75% while not. That's: [(1 * 0.25) + (4 * 0.75)] for average CP gain, which equals an average of 1 CP per 3.25 hours.

3.25 hours * 360 CP = 1,170 hours play time or 48.75 days play time.

I personally have been playing since Early Release Day 1 right when the servers went up (earlier than when they were supposed to).

I have 28 days played time.

I'm not super casual, but I also work full time so I can't play 24/7.

At the current rate of CP gain, it's going to take at least 1.5 years for me to reach the 120 point bubbles on the constellation, which is getting back where we are now.

You can call this "progression" all you want. But to me it says "Grind or Buy from Cash Shop" all over it. Personally, I don't support cash shop games after getting screwed over by Cryptic and seeing LoTRO turned into crap by F2P.

Joejudas

So you guys this is my prediction if 1.6 goes live like it is on the PTS right now :
Alot of us who have been subbed since launch will unsub or just completely leave.
New players will quickly realise it's going to take them 6 years to earn anything in game....Making ZOS put p2w items in the cash shop.
ESO is f2p and p2w by the end of the year.

Bouvin

Joejudas wrote: »

So you guys this is my prediction if 1.6 goes live like it is on the PTS right now :
Alot of us who have been subbed since launch will unsub or just completely leave.
New players will quickly realise it's going to take them 6 years to earn anything in game....Making ZOS put p2w items in the cash shop.
ESO is f2p and p2w by the end of the year.

They don't care as long as they can find enough "whales" to play the game while they rake in bonuses.

Game will be dead by end of 2016 and producers will be hyping some new game that they'll ruining within 12 months of its release.

The industry has no integrity anymore.

ziaidaniseb17_ESO

ok

Joejudas

Dont talk about that on the forums....its against the TOS. You should take that down @ziaidaniseb17_ESO

Spiritreaver_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

What VR ranks and now its successor CS are called by some are 'time-sinks' and they have been a part of MMOs since the start. The very start. Folks got to the heights of the VR system in this game too fast in ZoS's view, seems that the 'powers that be' are seeking to remedy that.

This situation is not new, imo its just taken ZoS a bit too long to finally start approaching it properly.

1)No other game "time sinks" included putting you back several months, it feels like being this:




2)Furthermore, I have never played a game where new real content just stops being added and you are left with nothing to do for months or years.

All we got are 3 instances, with super trivial encounters that don't require off-tanking or any evolved tactics (Mantikora being the only encounter worth playing) and that are meant to be done on a timer. Once again, the feeling (do the same quicker and quicker) is exactly the one shown on the picture above.

@1 - False. Maybe not to the degree that ZoS has taken it, but if you are telling me that you have never played a MMO where the devs haven't in one fell-swoop made a change that invalidates a playstyle and forces player to go back to the drawing board-ever?-i'm gonna have to call shenanigans.

Unless of course this is your first rodeo, so to speak.

@ the pic, That is exactly what you are my friend. You are playing a MMO and you are exactly that rat in a wheel until such time as you want to step down and quit. Best to just make peace with that fact.

@2 - This is a valid concern. Though speaking for myself, i think i am more annoyed with ZoS putting further substantial game development on hold while they try to court console players, than i actually am at the slowdown in game development itself. In any event, this point is kinda not the fault of the CS imo.

Hawk269

So far, I am liking the changes in 1.6. Granted, my characters were not high level like the majority of you, but from what I have played and tested on the PTS, I seem to like the changes they have made. Perhaps, if I had any V level characters I would feel different, but I don't so I cannot properly feel for any of you that do have V level characters.

For me and where I am at in the game on the Live servers and then using those same characters on the PTS, I like the changes.

Joejudas

Just incase anyone else is confused by that...talking about moderator action against your specific account on the forums is against the TOS and they will jump on you for it.

Vahrokh

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

What VR ranks and now its successor CS are called by some are 'time-sinks' and they have been a part of MMOs since the start. The very start. Folks got to the heights of the VR system in this game too fast in ZoS's view, seems that the 'powers that be' are seeking to remedy that.

This situation is not new, imo its just taken ZoS a bit too long to finally start approaching it properly.

1)No other game "time sinks" included putting you back several months, it feels like being this:




2)Furthermore, I have never played a game where new real content just stops being added and you are left with nothing to do for months or years.

All we got are 3 instances, with super trivial encounters that don't require off-tanking or any evolved tactics (Mantikora being the only encounter worth playing) and that are meant to be done on a timer. Once again, the feeling (do the same quicker and quicker) is exactly the one shown on the picture above.

@1 - False. Maybe not to the degree that ZoS has taken it, but if you are telling me that you have never played a MMO where the devs haven't in one fell-swoop made a change that invalidates a playstyle and forces player to go back to the drawing board-ever?-i'm gonna have to call shenanigans.

Unless of course this is your first rodeo, so to speak.

@ the pic, That is exactly what you are my friend. You are playing a MMO and you are exactly that rat in a wheel until such time as you want to step down and quit. Best to just make peace with that fact.

@2 - This is a valid concern. Though speaking for myself, i think i am more annoyed with ZoS putting further substantial game development on hold while they try to court console players, than i actually am at the slowdown in game development itself. In any event, this point is kinda not the fault of the CS imo.

@1 It's just 18 years I play online games, I guess I am still fresh. Should get back to my 300 baud modem and play my MUDs again for a while.
The sad thing is, some MUDs were so incredibly richer, long lasting and rewarding than post 2008 MMOs.

I've been through an almost endless amount of nerfs but not actual progress undoing, stats removal (to be re-grinded later). Plus it happened but it's been quite rare to have to re-do whole gear sets again and again. ESO lacking any tangible content, they just set our progress back and undo our gear so we spend more months to repeat what we have already done.
This is not replayability, this is dishonest dealing.

@pic "A" MMO is not appropriate. There's more than ESO and WoW around. I am subbed to 2 x 2003 MMOs (and others) and guess what, they managed to keep adding new stuff since then. Just got the umpteenth free EvE Online expansion and there's a lot of stuff.

Dave2836

Vahrokh wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

What VR ranks and now its successor CS are called by some are 'time-sinks' and they have been a part of MMOs since the start. The very start. Folks got to the heights of the VR system in this game too fast in ZoS's view, seems that the 'powers that be' are seeking to remedy that.

This situation is not new, imo its just taken ZoS a bit too long to finally start approaching it properly.

No other game "time sinks" included putting you back several months, it feels like being this:




Furthermore, I have never played a game where new real content just stops being added and you are left with nothing to do for months or years.

All we got are 3 instances, with super trivial encounters that don't require off-tanking or any evolved tactics (Mantikora being the only encounter worth playing) and that are meant to be done on a timer. Once again, the feeling (do the same quicker and quicker) is exactly the one shown on the picture above.

If this is truly how you feel about the game and it's content, it may be time to re-evaluate the time and effort being put in. This game isn't designed to replicate the mouse in the wheel, but more like the salmon swimming upstream only to propagate or be eaten by a bear.

Might I suggest a respec and play with an arrow to the knee? If you leave your imagination open, real life is sure to surprise you.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

What VR ranks and now its successor CS are called by some are 'time-sinks' and they have been a part of MMOs since the start. The very start. Folks got to the heights of the VR system in this game too fast in ZoS's view, seems that the 'powers that be' are seeking to remedy that.

This situation is not new, imo its just taken ZoS a bit too long to finally start approaching it properly.

1)No other game "time sinks" included putting you back several months, it feels like being this:




2)Furthermore, I have never played a game where new real content just stops being added and you are left with nothing to do for months or years.

All we got are 3 instances, with super trivial encounters that don't require off-tanking or any evolved tactics (Mantikora being the only encounter worth playing) and that are meant to be done on a timer. Once again, the feeling (do the same quicker and quicker) is exactly the one shown on the picture above.

@1 - False. Maybe not to the degree that ZoS has taken it, but if you are telling me that you have never played a MMO where the devs haven't in one fell-swoop made a change that invalidates a playstyle and forces player to go back to the drawing board-ever?-i'm gonna have to call shenanigans.

Unless of course this is your first rodeo, so to speak.

@ the pic, That is exactly what you are my friend. You are playing a MMO and you are exactly that rat in a wheel until such time as you want to step down and quit. Best to just make peace with that fact.

@2 - This is a valid concern. Though speaking for myself, i think i am more annoyed with ZoS putting further substantial game development on hold while they try to court console players, than i actually am at the slowdown in game development itself. In any event, this point is kinda not the fault of the CS imo.

@1 It's just 18 years I play online games, I guess I am still fresh. Should get back to my 300 baud modem and play my MUDs again for a while.
The sad thing is, some MUDs were so incredibly richer, long lasting and rewarding than post 2008 MMOs.

I've been through an almost endless amount of nerfs but not actual progress undoing, stats removal (to be re-grinded later). Plus it happened but it's been quite rare to have to re-do whole gear sets again and again. ESO lacking any tangible content, they just set our progress back and undo our gear so we spend more months to repeat what we have already done.
This is not replayability, this is dishonest dealing.

@pic "A" MMO is not appropriate. There's more than ESO and WoW around. I am subbed to 2 x 2003 MMOs (and others) and guess what, they managed to keep adding new stuff since then. Just got the umpteenth free EvE Online expansion and there's a lot of stuff.

I could prolly match you remembrance for remembrance of the good ol' days of gaming(will give one-back when i talked my boss into letting me take one of the new 56k modems out the back door cause it was 'defective' and became a hero in the eyes of my buds), but really its neither here nor there.

As to run-ins with a truly legendary nerf bat, i've had my fair share playing prolly one of the most soul crushing MMOs ever released, FFXI. Playing that game, there were times where with practically no warning, i've had years worth of playing(gear collection, months of exp grinding, millions in hard earned gil, etc)totally destroyed in the span of a day.

Played that dang game from '02 til '13. So maybe i'm just a bit more accustomed to big changes like what's going on in ESO currently. You pick up the piece and keep going or you don't.

firstdecan

Have people lost sight of the fact that ZOS is completely rebooting the game?

The game is an overall failure as a saleable product (I am not commenting on quality, I quite like the game). If this were not the case, they would not have changed the business model. Instead, they changed to it a model where they expect to succeed without any need for the current player base to invest one more dime into the game. They are not interested in current players, they are interested in fresh blood \ new sales.

Everything is getting reset to attract a different market. A sub based model appeals to adults with stable jobs and disposable income. The new model will appeal to players with sporadic income whose disposable income comes in spurts (like young adults going to school).

This means we need to stop looking at 1.6 as an "update" to the game. It's a reboot of the game, they should call it ESO 2.0. The new game will play differently than the old game, and hopefully after almost a year of live player metrics, they've managed to better balance the game and abilities within the game.

Your reward for participating in the "paid beta" is that you get to keep your toon in the new game. Everything else will change, albeit in ranges from slightly to significantly. Adapt to the changes, be less concerned with how things work now and more concerned with how these things will work in the new game. It's a new game. Nothing is being "nerfed," the entire game has been rebalanced, and comments on the new game should be focused on what is balanced and not balanced in the new game.

If you really want to help the game out, play on the PTS and LOOK FOR THE EXPLOITS. Finding the exploits now will help them fine tune the balance issues before it goes live.

Panda244

Sharkano wrote: »

Using all the cp points they gave you does not get you close to where you were as a long-playing VR14 in current live. They did not have to push us backwards to reboot the game, and in fact it is contrary to that they told us. Doing so is unnecessary, and hopefully is fixed before it goes live (but I am not holding my breath).

Kudos. This is what I've been trying to say. Either give us more than 70 at the start, or remove the nerf alltogether

Soulshine

My own theory on the emerging divide in opinions between people reporting that 1.6 is good/better and those who say it's worse, has everything to do with what their current rank is in live.

I have several characters copied over onto PTS. Some are VR14, some are lower VR and some not VR at all. I have 70CPs to spend on each.

By far, THE most notable difference in power/dps/effectiveness is happening on my NON VR chars to which I apply CPs. They are much stronger with than on live, and much stronger even without CPs on PTS due to some of the skill changes. With the CPs applied they are kind of silly powerful for such low level characters. Low VRs are also very improved with CPs and have no issues with any mobs.

But conversely, my long ago maxed out VR14s are not as strong as on live, even with the application of 70CPs. There is no way getting around that fact. They are certainly not crippled and not having a hard time doing things as before since I have the most experience on them and know very well how to play them and adapt to new morphs, but there is a very noticable drop in dmg as well as in healing abilities compared to before.

If the intention was to even out the playing field, I would say they still have not accomplished it. Tearing down maxed out charcters in order for them to be more on par with lower level chars does not equate with balance. It smacks of a kind of lazy translation of a vertical progression system that did not work well in the first place, into a horizontal system which cannot but penalize players at the very top and unfortunetly asks them to reinvent the proverbial wheel. On the whole, we all know the system has been put in place to create timesinks while new content zones (if we actually get any this year...) get made.

I don't mind the time sink, and in fact would not play MMOs if I did, but I do mind the fact that when I do then math, I can easily see what perks are left in these trees and what benefits percentages that I'm after such perks will offer me if I completely fill one out; they still do not give me the bonuses that I already have right now on live. Do they give me something different? Absolutely. But do they give me what I wanted?

It is not a question of not whinning, not being able to adapt a playstle, a build, a skill rotation. It is a matter of looking at this complete overhaul square in the face and deciding if the new system is something in which I want to partake or not, do I enjoy it or not. Nothing more.

TLDR:
Play it for yourself on PTS or wait until live and then figure it out. They may change some of this before it goes to live in any case, but I suspect as in the past they will likely leave it pretty much as is. The only question left for you is do you want to play an MMO with this kind of a character progression system? All other considerations don't really matter.

Ramtaku

Summary: If you allocate your skill and CP points thoughtfully, you'll find your toon/character is equally capable, though you may need to change your play style/gear sets/chants. Some skills still need evaluation which is a /feedback thing.

CP point acquisition on the TEST server is frustratingly slow and should be changed before going live.

All of us want new content.

I think that's it ;-)

Oh yea, as long as the sender of a particular message/word and the receiver have a shared and accurate understanding, the word cannot be "wrong".

G0ku

If they would deliver any new content in the near future I would rethink my decision to unsub. But they still made us pay sub telling us about future contents at a point when they already knew b2p would come.

And now they expect me to play the same content for even longer until they deliver something new? I´m sorry this just don´t fit my idea of being fair to your customers. Therefore they will not see any of my money ever again.

In my eyes that is borderline scam and all I can wish for them is to fail so future devs get a good example of how not to treat your customers.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The nerf is real, y'all... toons that used to have 60% crit have like 40% and that's HUGE. And I only earn about 1 CS point per day on PTS...

they have to balance for pvp and for pve, there are improvements and nerfs to all, people from both camps will be unhappy with some stuff.
now that we cant have full crit resist in pvp paired with a crit damage multiplier in cp system, we simply have to have less crit chance.

also its a lot easier to get medium high crit without stacking for it, just hard to get that extra, its easy to get major prophecy as well so there is more than what you base crit looks like.

itsBishop

Soulshine wrote: »

It is not a question of not whinning, not being able to adapt a playstle, a build, a skill rotation. It is a matter of looking at this complete overhaul square in the face and deciding if the new system is something in which I want to partake or not, do I enjoy it or not. Nothing more.

This is a solid summation of how most of those who are disappointed are currently feeling. Personally, I'm frustrated by the thought of having to fire up the treadmill come1.6 to get back to the exact same position I currently find myself in. When a guild full of players used to clearing all of the endgame content with record times is reset in 1.6 and required to grind out CPs just to consistently clear content they were breezing through a month earlier.. well.. you just have a recipe for player loss on your hands.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Bouvin wrote: »

A lot of long time players have states they won't be paying the sub after 1.6 and aren't sure they'll even be playing.

1.6 has some good updates, but overall the nerfs have really made a mess of the game.

I think their cash flow is going to be drastically reduced post 1.6...bad decision on ZOS part to make all of these changes. This game is just going to turn into another ghost town F2P game.

it makes a mess of fotm builds, but certainly does not make a mess of the game. this update just feels like how the game should have always been to me.

Tonnopesce

Joejudas wrote: »

So you guys this is my prediction if 1.6 goes live like it is on the PTS right now :
Alot of us who have been subbed since launch will unsub or just completely leave.
New players will quickly realise it's going to take them 6 years to earn anything in game....Making ZOS put p2w items in the cash shop.
ESO is f2p and p2w by the end of the year.

Actually i really cant understand you .....
If i was at the point to belive that i'm over powered with my super build and destroing evriting i will got bored and leave the game asap....

I agree with you about the lack of content right now in the end game But this can be solved easy with the release of a vet dungeon or two before the 1.6.x hit the live server. (is not going to happen i know...ç-ç )

And i do agree that the Ch sistem right now is a Grindparty, actually as a main pvper i dont know if i will be able to gain 1 point a week...

Btw the game needed a rebalance ( DK is the master class, Templars are OP in pvp and just healers in pve, sorcerers suck and nightblade are just broken)
now even if i dont belive that THIS problems needed a total overhaul is better like this that keep tryng in the wrong direction as the last months.

The game as it is now in 1.6 is a little bit what we have asked in all this time beta testing for them and LIVE we will not have the 1.6 but the 1.6.X so we have time to tell them our suggestions.

All the P2W stuff is [snip] imho so i will not comment before it happens.

And about the people who is leaving... Have you played the game in this days????? 2X more people is in it and more will come.......

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]


Edit typo

Tonnopesce

Just to know.... what TLDR mean??????

Sharkano

I love the game, which is why I care. My sole point is this: I can sink all the CP points into any configuration and I STILL cannot come close to performing against the SAME mobs the way I am doing now in live. This, to me, is a serious nerf. If they had left us the way we were and then added a CP constellation system, fine -- would have been fun. But they didn't (still hoping they fix before live, though).

Gemseed

Sharkano wrote: »

I love the game, which is why I care. My sole point is this: I can sink all the CP points into any configuration and I STILL cannot come close to performing against the SAME mobs the way I am doing now in live....

THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

Valencer

I dont know, guys. The game still feels about the same to my DK mage in terms of damage and survivability. Only real difference is I can't block as much anymore. I've taken that as a subtle hint that they don't want people to block every single attack anymore.

And roll dodge and CC break are more costly. But I can live with that, him being a mage and all.

Ill have to wait for the EU megaserver characters to come over to the PTS before I can test other builds

Korah_Eaglecry

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Spiritreaver_ESO wrote: »

Nerevarine1138 wrote:

I'm one of those characters (stop saying "toons"), and I support that change. Why on earth would anyone think that 60% critical chance represents a balanced game? That's insane.

Nerevarine1138, i disagree with a fair amount of what you say. I hold my tongue and keep moving because they are your opinions and you are entitled to them. But i have to speak at the small bold bit of the post of yours i quoted...i agree with you 100%. It drives me up the wall when characters are referred to as toons.

Agree with the whole of that post actually, but double-down agree with the terminology bit.

I much prefer the term "toon" myself. It has sentimental value for those of us who remember playing MMOs around 2000. Don't be a hater.

Solanum wrote: »

I've tried to play a stamina based fullplate warrior since beta.

I'm glad there are finally options in the game outside of wearing a dress in combination with a staff/sword and board blockfest.

Some people understand the game mechanics better then others, they came up with killer builds based upon high magicka and ultimate regeneration while keeping survivability with their stamina pool and not needing to invest in this. And I respect this, they make the best of their character with the tools given.

But we're far beyond that point, copying the cookie cutter builds is not a display of skill and knowhow. And it's long overdue that things got balanced a bit.

I agree. I'm glad your desired playstyle will now be more viable. I've been playing with builds that utilize full medium armor for the most part since before launch and I don't mind at all if light armor magicka based builds are no longer the same.

Honestly, I don't see how it's even fun once someone has figured out that perfect DPS machine build, especially when they're a PvE player. What is the point of repeatedly running the same trials with the same exact build that you literally have no way to improve upon? Sounds boring. For PvP, maybe I could see it, because that's a dynamic environment so playing with your build isn't necessarily where the excitement comes from, but for PvE it's weird.

Also, in direct response to the OP: Why do you keep saying that you have to go through the Champion System simply to get back to exactly where you are now? Have you not noticed that customization options, from the buff system, to various skills, to the addition of the whole Champion System, has drastically changed? For instance, the dude above talking about his stamina based heavy armor toon: if someone wants to build a tank now, they can really build a tank. The customization available, particularly through CPs, will allow us to specialize to a much much greater degree as far as I can tell.

So no, when you finish grinding every last CP (because apparently you need to cap everything before you can start enjoying yourself), you won't be right back where you are now, you'll be something completely new and different that maybe you can say is similar in power vs mobs as where you are now but much more specialized.

Its fearmongering. He hopes to persuade those who havent tried the new system out to turn against it and fight it. Its in some peoples best interests that the new system never happens. As it forces them to give up things that were out of balance and gave them an advantage.

The_SpAwN

Gemseed wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

I love the game, which is why I care. My sole point is this: I can sink all the CP points into any configuration and I STILL cannot come close to performing against the SAME mobs the way I am doing now in live....

THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

How can this be a good thing??

Yusuf

swjbusinesscub18_ESO wrote: »

Sorry, but I cannot agree. I'm liking everything I see with the new systems and balance. It may be because may main is VR6, but I'm not feeling any weaker. Things from this perspective seem very much the same.

That's because your character is still weak, a Veteran-14 Character in purple and golden gear will notice the difference since he was at his peak.

Arki

The_SpAwN wrote: »

Gemseed wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

I love the game, which is why I care. My sole point is this: I can sink all the CP points into any configuration and I STILL cannot come close to performing against the SAME mobs the way I am doing now in live....

THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

How can this be a good thing??

Because it means the game as a whole might have become more of a challenge for everyone. A lot of people play games to be challenged.