New Values x 10 hard to swallow.

sabresandiego_ESO

The game is way better balanced with the new numbers. Coming from someone who has been testing a lot.

ElliottXO

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The game is way better balanced with the new numbers. Coming from someone who has been testing a lot.

Umm the multiplication factor has no influence on the balance bro. If they divide all the current PTS numbers by 10 the balance of the PTS remains the same.

That is what this thread is about.

Rosveen

ElliottXO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The game is way better balanced with the new numbers. Coming from someone who has been testing a lot.

Umm the multiplication factor has no influence on the balance bro. If they divide all the current PTS numbers by 10 the balance of the PTS remains the same.

That is what this thread is about.

Except it doesn't work this way. Stats weren't increased 10x across the board, many different ratios were used - some lower, some higher than 10. The game was rebalanced, but the exact changes were hidden by inflated numbers (so people couldn't easily compare PTS so Live).

Gargragrond

Removing the last digit of every number displayed in the UI doesn't affect the game mechanics or balance issues at all. It just makes it easier to read. The issue here is about usability, not about balance/nerfing issues for which there are plenty of other threads.

eventide03b14a_ESO

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

We appreciate all of your feedback, folks! So that we can keep 1.6 specific feedback organized, we're moving this thread to the PTS section. Thanks for your understanding.

Cool. @ZOS_TristanK‌ Now can you please tell the devs we don't like the new inflated numbers?

ElliottXO

Rosveen wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The game is way better balanced with the new numbers. Coming from someone who has been testing a lot.

Umm the multiplication factor has no influence on the balance bro. If they divide all the current PTS numbers by 10 the balance of the PTS remains the same.

That is what this thread is about.

Except it doesn't work this way. Stats weren't increased 10x across the board, many different ratios were used - some lower, some higher than 10. The game was rebalanced, but the exact changes were hidden by inflated numbers (so people couldn't easily compare PTS so Live).

Turn your brain on mate. If you divide the CURRENT inflated numbers on the PTS (!) by 10, then there will be absolutely no difference in balance for the PTS.

I am fully aware that the factor between LIVE and PTS is different for different stats, and not just x10.

angelyn

angelyn wrote: »

I performed a comparison exercise between base stats on live and PTS in this thread:
here

All the wordy bits can be found in that thread, but here is the pic posted, which shows in my humble calculations how the basic stats scaled up in different ratios. Regen seems to have scaled by more than 10, but max health/magicka/stamina by less than 10.Once my character is copied over (EU), I plan to do the same exercise. *As I've said in my thread;I'm not a mathematician or a dev, these are just some calculations I've done on a level 3 character.

Also I've just done an enchant /mobs comparison:
So we are now sitting at:

• Health scaled on 1:7 Ratio
• Magicka/Stamina scaled on 1:9 Ratio
• Health Regen scaled on 1:11.5 Ratio
• Magicka/Stamina Regen scaled on 1:11 Ratio
• Heavy/Medium Armour scaled on 1:4 Ratio
• Light Armour scaled on 1:2 Ratio
• Some mobs health scaled on a 1:7 Ratio
• Some mobs health scaled on a 1:9 Ratio
• Max Health Enchants scaled on a 1:5 Ratio
• Max Magicka/Stamina scaled on a 1:6 Ratio
• All recovery enchants scaled on a 1:3 Ratio
• Reduce cost enchants scaled up on a 1:8/9 Ratio
• Spell Resistance/Armour glyphs scaled on a 1:6 Ratio
• X resistance Glyphs (eg Fire Resistance) scaled on a 1:2 Ratio
• Spell/Weapon Damage Glyphs increased on a 1:2 Ratio
• General Damage enchants for weapons varied between 1:3 and 1:10 Ratio

Considering most mobs health levelled in a 1:7 and above ratio, our enchants seem to have scaled a lot less.

All comparisons can still be found in this thread.

Theegoliath

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ , @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , is this topic a moot point, or should we continue to raise our pitch forks and torches in discontent, hunting the "inflated" witch?

Wing

same as above.

Theegoliath

Even after 1.6.2, I still feel the number infltion is unnecessary. I dont care what other games have 2,xxx,xxx damage counters/armor/health. There is a reason I dont play those games, and instead play eso.

Armitas

Patch 1.6.3

Gamplay

• We are now capping damage at 9999 and changing the tool tips of Destructive Touch and Destructive Clench.
  • Destructive Touch will now be called Firaga.
  • Destructive Clench morph will now be called Firagaga

fake

KeplerMG

I understand about balance and rebalance, but making entire crafted items (jewelry glyphs) completely worthless... how could that create a balance? We are plainly taking one step forward and two steps back.

Magdalina

It does sound like this was mostly done to hide stat changes(read:nerfs), because that's the only *real* reason I can think of. Saying it was done so we could see that 0.001% stat increase is not even funny, not even most hardcore minimaxers care for that(I mean, what, seriously? "Ohmygod guys look I now have 22122 health instead of 22121, yes, that's exactly what I needed, NOW it's all finally going to work!"). The information now (imo) looks silly, is harder to process and most interestingly a lot harder to compare to what we have on live - so instead of a nerf it just looks like "rebalancing". Not the most honest approach and it doesn't do ZOS much honor.

ZRage

Didn't notice this topic before now,

I also have hard time understanding this changes, if champ system is the problem then some more powerful nodes should just require more points investment for a tick. But scaling the number times ten isn't really good idea, actually before this low numbers in the game were quite unique and clean. Now it's odd so many numbers everywhere, spell costing 2000 magicka etc.

I really think that it all should be divided by 10 again after testing is done.

olemanwinter

firstdecan wrote: »

<sarcasm>Because let's face it, a 00.1% bonus on a four digit number is much more significant than a 00.1% bonus on a three digit number. <sarcasm/>

They did it so that the micro bonuses would be more apparent (this is in another discussion somewhere I don't feel like looking for). Bonus of 1% or less are not perceptible on smaller numbers, so they just made the numbers bigger. Plus, this is an MA rated game, we should all be able to do this kind of math in our heads.

Here's the problem. They didn't scale everything the same. Even the way attribute points allocate health vs mag/stam have been changed differently.

So, if I'm testing the effectiveness of a burst DPS build on an NPC trying to compare it to live, I don't really know if the NPCs health has been scaled by 100%, 90%, 120%, 70% or whatever.

If I was STARTING FROM SCRATCH (Obviously all Zos cares about at this point) it would be a fine system that makes theorycrafting easier.

But building on existing builds and existing data is much more challenging.

Theegoliath

Now that we are on 1.6.3, whats everyones opinions on the inflated, rebalanced, nerfed, muliplied, whatever you wanna call it number system? It has not grown on me, and i do not think it will : / my original reasons still bother me.

Panda244

Still hate it.... xD
I just can't wrap my brain around the decisions of why they did it, a 5% change is a 5% change, I don't need to see it, because of how infinitely insubstantial it is. So why inflate the numbers?

Syntse

I can get used to the inflated numbers don't mind that much.

After this nerf I seem to be bit more powerful than before against over world mobs. With the armor changes we noticed that we just cannot rush into group of mobs and AoE them down in Vet Wayrest but needed to be bit more careful. The bosses in the other hand seemed to melt like butter (this was in 1.6.1 think they increased the hp of the bosses later so need more testing).

Sure why not just un-nerf us and put everything exactly 10x. I'll love to go around and yolo obliterate everything in my path since that's what it would be.

daswahnsinn

Can you all make it an option to have the new numbering system? Like what you guys have done with hide helmet or chat bubbles.

olsborg

What I dont really understand is the new numbers for spell crit and spell penetration. I mean, how much spellcrit % does 2099 spellcrit score give me? and same for spell penetration?

Please enligheten me.

ElliottXO

olsborg wrote: »

What I dont really understand is the new numbers for spell crit and spell penetration. I mean, how much spellcrit % does 2099 spellcrit score give me? and same for spell penetration?

Please enligheten me.

Same with armor and spell resistance. They should give a hint about the actual mitigation in percent. The numbers have no meaning whatsoever.

Varicite

Syntse wrote: »

Sure why not just un-nerf us and put everything exactly 10x. I'll love to go around and yolo obliterate everything in my path since that's what it would be.

They adjusted mob health / damage to reflect the new values.

What on earth makes you think that mob health / damage wouldn't be readjusted to reflect a true 10x increase from live? What a short-sighted sentiment.

Either way, the whole thing seems unnecessary to me.

Syntse

Varicite wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Sure why not just un-nerf us and put everything exactly 10x. I'll love to go around and yolo obliterate everything in my path since that's what it would be.

They adjusted mob health / damage to reflect the new values.

What on earth makes you think that mob health / damage wouldn't be readjusted to reflect a true 10x increase from live? What a short-sighted sentiment.

Either way, the whole thing seems unnecessary to me.

Point being that there has been different scalings now based on some data collectors. And they yell big nerf... and my personal feeling while actually playing the game and not comparing numbers is that I feel bit more powerful than before. So if all these "they nerfed this value" would be exact 10x and of course the mobs health would be exact 10x. I would actually just obliterate all over world mobs because mobs hp and maybe damage was bit upped but my enchants, healths, stats which had variable changes would all be 10x and then add the CS on top of that.

Locke_ESO

The annoying thing is I dont really care about the overall rebalanceing as it's the same for everyone I just want a UI that is easy to read and understand. If they nerfed things then fine it's how it had to be for the Champion system.

Varicite

Syntse wrote: »

Point being that there has been different scalings now based on some data collectors. And they yell big nerf... and my personal feeling while actually playing the game and not comparing numbers is that I feel bit more powerful than before.

I don't put very much stock in personal feels.

It's a useful metric for some things, but when measuring character power, I'll take hard numbers, thanks. : )

Syntse

Varicite wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Point being that there has been different scalings now based on some data collectors. And they yell big nerf... and my personal feeling while actually playing the game and not comparing numbers is that I feel bit more powerful than before.

I don't put very much stock in personal feels.

It's a useful metric for some things, but when measuring character power, I'll take hard numbers, thanks. : )

Based on numbers how can you say is your char better or worse than before when the numbers are not exactly comparable.

Drazek

Bloated numbers are nothing but a smoke screen, they are here to stay. It's so ZoS can do their reblancing and nerfing without it being so obivious to us players. I don't mind the rebalancing/nerfing because I believe they are heading in the right direction.
The game was too easy and who knows it may still be with 1.6, but I do NOT like the bloated numbers.

Varicite

Syntse wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Point being that there has been different scalings now based on some data collectors. And they yell big nerf... and my personal feeling while actually playing the game and not comparing numbers is that I feel bit more powerful than before.

I don't put very much stock in personal feels.

It's a useful metric for some things, but when measuring character power, I'll take hard numbers, thanks. : )

Based on numbers how can you say is your char better or worse than before when the numbers are not exactly comparable.

Of course they are exactly comparable, the ratios of how the stats were actually boosted (instead of exactly x10) have been floating around the forums since 1.6.

It's also very easy to compare one's character sheet data on live as compared to PTS, then look through the Champion System to take into account any missing passives. Then you can have a pretty clear idea of whether your relative character power has gone up or down.

There is a reason that we use math and numbers when making major decisions instead of just.. y'know, feels.

Not that how a game "feels" isn't important; it is. It's just not a very good metric for determining exactly how your character measures up.

"I can do 12k DPS sustained, self-buffed." tells me a lot more than "I can kill things pretty fast".

By the same token "It takes me 20 seconds less time on average per mob to kill these VR10 mobs w/ a sample size of 100 on PTS" is more telling than "I feel like I kill things faster now"

Edhelas_Naven

Seeing that I was not alone in this, I add that I do agree as well that they should lower the number of digits either back to the original form or something else. If the interface can display a 3 or 4 digit number, that is optimal and more useful, I believe, as I do not care what the computer is calculating behind the screen. If I was solving a science or engineering problem where truncating errors is a problem in a recursive calculation, then I would care for the extra number of digits.

I saw right through this the first time I logged in on PTS, numbers look big but something was not right, nerfs will be hidden around somewhere, you just need to look harder to find them. Even the Champion system at first glance gave away thier intentions, perhaps not hard fact but it is now obvious what the system does. Merely down scaling the current V14s and making use work for it again.

Last character copy showed that I have earned the 70 CP and I ask what is the use of playing my only V14 character now since any XP I earn will be wasted. So he is in hibernating now while i spend more time with alts. Spent the points to try and mimic my current buld, I was still able to do some things at before, though not as effective. The right feeling was not there. That is what I look for, we are emotional beings, not mechanical robots that always look at or interact with the world in numeric calculations and logic.

Digiman

Theegoliath wrote: »

Is anyone else having a difficult time swallowing the new larger value numbers for everything ( skill dmg, health, skill cost, etc..). I for one have a harder time digesting information if the number is xx,xxx vrs xxx. I dont need a larger number to feel good about changes in my character. Thats why rounding numbers was invented. Who cares about the extra .xx

Heres a musical quote I feel totally applies to the new value sytem. "Less is more." I feel smaller numbers are easier to read and mentally do math faster on the fly.

Honestly this is actually much better for calculating and fine tuning the numbers between the class. I would agree with you if this was in the 500,000's but really this just seems much more sensible then balancing damage around the 10's and 100's.