New Values x 10 hard to swallow.

Kevinmon

please go back to smaller numbers

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO

Someone probably said this already but the reason they inflated the numbers is to accomodate the increasingly lower % bonuses you get from champion points.

That makes, or should make, people spdread their points into several trees and passives to get the maximum amount of the %, considering the first points spent give bigger values.

But still... if you want to put everything in one passive from one tree, you will get less and less % bonus, but it is still something. And the only way you can see that bonus is to have a larger number.

0,1% of 2300 bonus would give you 2302,3
0,1% of 23000 gives 23023

Imagine even smaller % values. People would pick 10 points in a certain passive and complain that they would not be getting the values because they would not be able to see it.

---

I don't think that 0,1% gives me any advantage in battle too, but you gotta remember that this is combined with a lot o other 0,1% which then might give you something.

Armitas

Bouvin wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Return all the numbers back to live, then inflate the champ point percentages instead. Now you have a numerically powerful increase, without losing all grounding or creating inflated numbers.

Instead of seeing an absurdly large number like 23,002 magicka with a 1% increase from CP they will see 2,300 with a 10% increase from CP. Each results in the same amount of additional magicka (230) but the later appears far more powerful and easier to comprehend.

10% > 1%

Meaning, a 1% increase to 2,300 is the same PERCENT increase as a 1% increase to 2,300.

Doing a 10% increase to 230 is TEN TIMES the percent increase as 1% to 2,300.

Yes 10% is ten times as much as 1%. Our stats now are some where around 10 times what it was previously. I'm just sliding the inflation to CP side. 10% is just an easily visible example as it will probably have to be a lot less than that. I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

We can get 230 magicka 2 ways
23000 x 1%
or 2,300 x 10%
The effect character wise is identical, 230 magicka but 1 is a lot easier on the eyes and seems more powerful.

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Return all the numbers back to live, then inflate the champ point percentages instead. Now you have a numerically powerful increase, without losing all grounding or creating inflated numbers.

Instead of seeing an absurdly large number like 23,002 magicka with a 1% increase from CP they will see 2,300 with a 10% increase from CP. Each results in the same amount of additional magicka (230) but the later appears far more powerful and easier to comprehend.

10% > 1%

Meaning, a 1% increase to 2,300 is the same PERCENT increase as a 1% increase to 2,300.

Doing a 10% increase to 230 is TEN TIMES the percent increase as 1% to 2,300.

Yes 10% is ten times as much as 1%. Our stats now are some where around 10 times what it was previously. I'm just sliding the inflation to CP side. 10% is just an easily visible example. I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

We can get 230 magicka 2 ways
23000 x 1%
or 2,300 x 10%
The effect character wise is identical, 230 magicka but 1 is a lot easier on the eyes and seems more powerful.

Lol man, the effect is not the same!

If you have 23000 Magicka and you get 230 more it doesnt make a big difference, but if you have 2300 and you get 230 more it makes a difference!

Thats why we work in percentages, not in flat numbers.

Armitas

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Return all the numbers back to live, then inflate the champ point percentages instead. Now you have a numerically powerful increase, without losing all grounding or creating inflated numbers.

Instead of seeing an absurdly large number like 23,002 magicka with a 1% increase from CP they will see 2,300 with a 10% increase from CP. Each results in the same amount of additional magicka (230) but the later appears far more powerful and easier to comprehend.

10% > 1%

Meaning, a 1% increase to 2,300 is the same PERCENT increase as a 1% increase to 2,300.

Doing a 10% increase to 230 is TEN TIMES the percent increase as 1% to 2,300.

Yes 10% is ten times as much as 1%. Our stats now are some where around 10 times what it was previously. I'm just sliding the inflation to CP side. 10% is just an easily visible example. I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

We can get 230 magicka 2 ways
23000 x 1%
or 2,300 x 10%
The effect character wise is identical, 230 magicka but 1 is a lot easier on the eyes and seems more powerful.

Lol man, the effect is not the same!

If you have 23000 Magicka and you get 230 more it doesnt make a big difference, but if you have 2300 and you get 230 more it makes a difference!

Thats why we work in percentages, not in flat numbers.

10% is just an example as I said for visibility sake. I think 3-4% for something like this would be fine.

230 magicka in pts is identical to 230 magicka in pts that is what I'm saying. We still live in the same world where monsters have been scaled. Sure you will have to rebalance things like spell cost but you won't need them to be 4000 a cast. Everything will have to be rebalance around it, just as everything has been rebalance around the inflated numbers.

Rosveen

Panda244 wrote: »

Go Here
And vote for what you want, easier for ZOS to look at that one thread then multiple.

It doesn't matter, it's too late to revert it anyway.

Armitas

Rosveen wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Go Here
And vote for what you want, easier for ZOS to look at that one thread then multiple.

It doesn't matter, it's too late to revert it anyway.

I sure hope not but I get the same feeling. A lot of people are returning for 1.6 with it as a make or break point for them. They have got to make this good. It's hard enough for us to understand these numbers, those coming back are going to be really lost.

Gargragrond

This was discussed already back in october: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/134325/not-looking-forward-to-this/p1
People didn't like the idea then, even less now. Even the most 'positive' responses have been just neutral, no one seems to like the change. Please get rid of this nonsense xkcd.com/670/

Theegoliath

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

The reason they inflated the numbers is to accomodate the increasingly lower % bonuses you get from champion points.

I dont need to be shown the minute increase on my character screen when adding points into a constellation. For example, when each point you put in only increases .3%, I know ill need another few champ points to go up a full %...

It takes on average what, 3-4+ champin points to go up 1 whole percentage past 15 points in a constellation. So to go up at least one percentage (which is all that matters at that point), takes you days and 12 cp...

Diminishing returns is a great idea, but its a little extreme right now in my opinion. To little at at low lvls.

Joy_Division

I despise these ridiculous values. I have never played an RPG where I had 23,000 health / HPs and I certainly never played an Elder Scrolls games with these crazy numbers.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier, it is not easy to quickly comprehend these large numbers ... so whatever convenience is gained from seeing that 0.5% increase becomes meaningless as these large numbers are difficult to metnally process.

theweakminded

Robbmrp wrote: »

There's no reason to inflate existing numbers. Just leave them as they are. We don't need Bosses with 10 Million HP. Who cares if it's a 2000 hit vs a 20,000 hit. Leave it as it is please....

The inflated numbers can be used to get more accuracy in numbers. Especially if numbers are being rounded. Not saying it is, but there could be reasoning to it other than just inflating numbers.

Locke_ESO

theweakminded wrote: »

The inflated numbers can be used to get more accuracy in numbers. Especially if numbers are being rounded. Not saying it is, but there could be reasoning to it other than just inflating numbers.

It's more accurate but it's almost entirely inconsequential information. Whether you do say 203,4 damage with a spell or 203,0 it will make almost no difference. You'd need to cast that 2034 damage spell 507 times before gaining even a single extra spell cast. Some of the key rules with the UI should be about providing relevant information to the player and making it easy to use and this is a step backwards.

Robbmrp

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Looking at the ABOVE screen print, it clearly shows that it's not a x 10 adjustment otherwise it would be the exact same numbers with a 0 at the end. 1923 = 19230 etc.

From looking at the BELOW screen print, you can clearly see a nerf in the numbers that don't add up. Armor enchants are being nerfed and disguised as a x 10 number change. The exact same enchant is now worth 30-40% less than 1.5.

IMHO, this update was put in to clearly hide yet another system nerf. Based on ZOS saying we won't do this and ending up doing that, it looks like they are going to try and disguise changes they know we won't like.

The numbers don't lie....

angelyn

I performed a comparison exercise between base stats on live and PTS in this thread:
here

All the wordy bits can be found in that thread, but here is the pic posted, which shows in my humble calculations how the basic stats scaled up in different ratios. Regen seems to have scaled by more than 10, but max health/magicka/stamina by less than 10.Once my character is copied over (EU), I plan to do the same exercise. *As I've said in my thread;I'm not a mathematician or a dev, these are just some calculations I've done on a level 3 character.

Wing

I think the base crit bonus of 10% is:

a) making up for the (bugged or not) lower crit on set bonuses (this shifts power from sets to the base character making everyone more even)

or

b) preparing for the removal the pvp buffs from pve gameplay (as they stated they wanted to do, however with health not scaling x10, health attributes reduced from 15 to 12, or 150 to 120 if you want to see some bloated numbers, and the removal of the health bonus from pvp buffs. . .everyone is going to get VERY squishy VERY fast.)

btw attribute points for stamina and magicka are up by a little (11 compared to 10 using live values, and health has been reduced from 15 to 12 using live numbers)

Stamina = 10 now, 111 pts (x11)
Magicka = 10 now, 111 pts (x11)
Health = 15 now, 122 pts (x8)

Edit: for exact numbers

also tested the vet 10-14 base runes you can buy in Craglorn

Live vs Pts
78 vs 490 -Stamina (x6.3) NOT x10
78 vs 490 -Magicka (x6.3) NOT x10
117 vs 539 -Health (x4.6) VERY NOT x10

overall they appear to be mostly nerfing gear and putting that power into the champion system (this makes it better for "noobs" or "casuals" who would otherwise not bother with having or trying to get the best gear, but have access to the champion system same as everybody else.

except for Health, that is getting boned at every turn.

WebBull

What a mess.........please dont go live with the number bloat and character nerf.

Wing

WebBull wrote: »

What a mess.........please dont go live with the number bloat and character nerf.

agreed, yet again.

Animal_Mother

angelyn wrote: »

I performed a comparison exercise between base stats on live and PTS in this thread:
here

All the wordy bits can be found in that thread, but here is the pic posted, which shows in my humble calculations how the basic stats scaled up in different ratios. Regen seems to have scaled by more than 10, but max health/magicka/stamina by less than 10.Once my character is copied over (EU), I plan to do the same exercise. *As I've said in my thread;I'm not a mathematician or a dev, these are just some calculations I've done on a level 3 character.

It's nice that you used a low level character to display the stat changes. Most us use have been using our Vet characters for comparison and we're seeing how 1.6 changes affected our gear - which took a huge hit by comparison.

I'm thinking the only way to play 1.6 is to retire my Vet (keep him around for crafting) and start from scratch.

Merlight

Today I watched some Complete Beginner's Guide to EVE videos. At one point the guy attacked an NPC spacecraft, and the encounter went like: "You see, we're doing 2 damage with the civilian autocannon and 16 with the regular autoca... 23! Yea, we're doing serious damage there. Aaand there we've blown that out of the sky."
Two damage. Not two point zero, nor two thousand. I thought it hilarious that a game where you can travel faster than light is fine with 2 damage, yet Tamriel Unlimited isn't. Later I read somewhere that their "gank ships" deliver 1000-2000 DPS (unresisted). They were all talking whole numbers, nobody appeared to be interested in more than 4 digits.

Panda244

Merlight wrote: »

Today I watched some Complete Beginner's Guide to EVE videos. At one point the guy attacked an NPC spacecraft, and the encounter went like: "You see, we're doing 2 damage with the civilian autocannon and 16 with the regular autoca... 23! Yea, we're doing serious damage there. Aaand there we've blown that out of the sky."
Two damage. Not two point zero, nor two thousand. I thought it hilarious that a game where you can travel faster than light is fine with 2 damage, yet Tamriel Unlimited isn't. Later I read somewhere that their "gank ships" deliver 1000-2000 DPS (unresisted). They were all talking whole numbers, nobody appeared to be interested in more than 4 digits.

4 digits is the limit please. No more.

Vordae

This system was create with the intention you would be at an equal power level to your live hero based on using 30 champion points. If you compare not using 30 champion points then you are skewing the system to make a nerf exist. Now the system may be nerfing us even with 30 points spent and at that time it would need to be addressed.

When it comes to the larger numbers or smaller numbers it doesn't matter to me either way. What we do need though is a point of reference. The UI either needs to show us what value for each stat is equivelant to softcap on live or it needs to show hard cap for each stat.

angelyn

angelyn wrote: »

I performed a comparison exercise between base stats on live and PTS in this thread:
here

All the wordy bits can be found in that thread, but here is the pic posted, which shows in my humble calculations how the basic stats scaled up in different ratios. Regen seems to have scaled by more than 10, but max health/magicka/stamina by less than 10.Once my character is copied over (EU), I plan to do the same exercise. *As I've said in my thread;I'm not a mathematician or a dev, these are just some calculations I've done on a level 3 character.**I don't know if we get the sam ratios for higher level characters. There may be some kind of sliding scale involved.

I've now done an armour comparison.Heavy and Medium look like they have scaled 1:4 and light armour at 1:2

KeplerMG

Heres something to think about.

If they were to chop off the last digit of these new stats, gold VR14 spell power glyphs on PTS would only give 4 spell power. So then what would be the spell power on a level 1 white glyph? Trying to bluff your way through answering that question will make you realize just how brutal the jewelry glyph nerf really is. Nerfed completely into oblivion.

As an enchanter, and a Templar who uses spell power glyphs, this is a huge insult. It is the biggest nerf bat swing I have taken (in the teeth) in all my 14 years of playing MMO's.

KerinKor

KeplerMG wrote: »

Heres something to think about.

If they were to chop off the last digit of these new stats, gold VR14 spell power glyphs on PTS would only give 4 spell power. So then what would be the spell power on a level 1 white glyph? Trying to bluff your way through answering that question will make you realize just how brutal the jewelry glyph nerf really is. Nerfed completely into oblivion.

As an enchanter, and a Templar who uses spell power glyphs, this is a huge insult. It is the biggest nerf bat swing I have taken (in the teeth) in all my 14 years of playing MMO's.

Yet more focusing on numbers, no attempt to relate how the changes in numbers actually affect your ability to actually play the game.

Gear is a MEANS to an end, that end is to kill mobs, many of you going on and on and on about the numbers simply choose to avoid answering that: ARE YOU LESS VIABLE NOW AND IF SO HOW?

The numbers don't matter, period, it's what they achieve that matters. If you can do the same thing now as before then the damned numbers are irrelevant!

Theegoliath

KerinKor wrote: »

The numbers don't matter, period, it's what they achieve that matters. If you can do the same thing now as before then the damned numbers are irrelevant!

Wrong. The numbers give us information, informtion that is now slower to translate than before. It also clutters things up. All of the values have been individually tweeked, and there is now no known base standard. 1.5 gives us the information in a smaller bite which is mentally easier to process.

As for actually playing the game? Everyone I know is having to change there armor sets, and skills to accomodate the nerfs, and I am in a top 2% pvp guild.

Wing

ya know I saw the pts was down. . .kinda hoped they were reverting the numbers :P

Theegoliath

Now that the pts has been up for a week, how is everyone adjusting? I still find I am reverting to live numbers, and removing the last digit from all stats. Dosnt help that we still play on live as well.

I still feel the number bloat was not nessesary.

WebBull

theegoliathb14_ESO wrote: »

I still feel the number bloat was not nessesary.

It wasn't necessary from a player stand point but it is completely necessary for ZOS to disguise the fact that they are nerfing our characters so we now have to "re-earn" what we already have earned.

C0pp3rhead

theegoliathb14_ESO wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

The numbers don't matter, period, it's what they achieve that matters. If you can do the same thing now as before then the damned numbers are irrelevant!

Wrong. The numbers give us information, informtion that is now slower to translate than before. It also clutters things up. All of the values have been individually tweeked, and there is now no known base standard. 1.5 gives us the information in a smaller bite which is mentally easier to process.

As for actually playing the game? Everyone I know is having to change there armor sets, and skills to accomodate the nerfs, and I am in a top 2% pvp guild.

Agreed. The numbers do matter. We all know how often players overestimate their skill - being able to report accurate damage taken, damage dealt, and healing given makes us better at identifying our shortcomings and thus better players.

And @KerinKor‌, we are less viable and less powerful. Much of the endgame gear that some people spent months gathering is now useless. Stacking crit chance was important to 1.5's endgame pvp play. Now, spell power is more important, yet our enchants are less powerful. The 1.6 nerfs to the stats (crits, spell power, 5 item set bonuses) make many players less effective. Light armor wearers are having a difficult time staying alive. While LA should definitely provide less protection than HA or MA, our already meager stamina is now draining even faster from blocking, and we're getting bludgeoned to death by trash mobs. An NPC archer getting off a lucky shot will insta-kill most LA wearers. Content that I was able to solo before is now near impossible. On top of all this, many mobs and bosses have gotten buffed and are more powerful than on the live server.

Moreover, we're upset that the inflated numbers are serving as a smokescreen for the "rebalancing" that ZOS is pulling. Had they simply multiplied everything by x10 or x7, few people would be complaining, and only then on aesthetic grounds. As @KeplerMG‌ wrote, gold V14 spell power glyphs went from +20 or so spell power to +4 spell power (w/o the extra digit).

This all means that my +40 spell power that I get from my rings is now +8 on the pts and my crit chance has gone from 52% down to 37.5%. I might be able to make up the spellcrit using CP, but my meager 70 points have gone towards keeping me alive through spell resist, armor bonuses, and damage reduction. Sure, my max magicka has increased, but I can't stay alive long enough to use it unless I spam HS. The WORST part of all this is that the number inflation has been inconsistent across stats and abilities, thus we have no way of figuring out what has changed and by how much. I come to this forum every day to find out that someone has discovered a new change that is
1. not documented in the patch notes,
2. not working as intended,
3. changed for odd or unexplained reasons,
4. changed for no reason where no players asked for a change.

This is why we're upset: we feel like ZOS is not being honest with us. The number inflation coupled with "rebalancing" makes the job of testing on the PTS puzzlingly difficult. I have never seen a player asking for a complete overhau of the buff system nor attributes, and ZOS did not give us a reason for doing so. They just did it. The lack of transparency is frustrating and creates more problems than it solves.

edited for clarity.

Bouvin

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Return all the numbers back to live, then inflate the champ point percentages instead. Now you have a numerically powerful increase, without losing all grounding or creating inflated numbers.

Instead of seeing an absurdly large number like 23,002 magicka with a 1% increase from CP they will see 2,300 with a 10% increase from CP. Each results in the same amount of additional magicka (230) but the later appears far more powerful and easier to comprehend.

10% > 1%

Meaning, a 1% increase to 2,300 is the same PERCENT increase as a 1% increase to 2,300.

Doing a 10% increase to 230 is TEN TIMES the percent increase as 1% to 2,300.

Yes 10% is ten times as much as 1%. Our stats now are some where around 10 times what it was previously. I'm just sliding the inflation to CP side. 10% is just an easily visible example. I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

We can get 230 magicka 2 ways
23000 x 1%
or 2,300 x 10%
The effect character wise is identical, 230 magicka but 1 is a lot easier on the eyes and seems more powerful.

Lol man, the effect is not the same!

If you have 23000 Magicka and you get 230 more it doesnt make a big difference, but if you have 2300 and you get 230 more it makes a difference!

Thats why we work in percentages, not in flat numbers.

^^^^ Exactly.

10% is 10 TIMES the increase of 1%. No matter what the base number is...

But then again, Maths are hard for some people. So I'm giving up this conversation after this post.