Sorc 1.6 Discussion

Khivas_Carrick

Gandogal wrote: »

So whats good dps numbers in 1.6 anyways?

I want to say 7k to 8k is the normal benchmark, 9k to 10k is the upper average, and 11k to 13k is the superb class of DPS.

More realistically however you're looking at 6 to 7k being normal, 8 to 9k exceptional, and 10 to 12k superb.

All values are single target btw.

Nybling

Am I alone in thinking Sorcs are in a really good spot right now?

Sure there are some minor things they could fix, but I can do 2-3 packs in Spellscar just fine, I can do 12k dps, I have really solid survivability in a number of situations... I guess I just don't know what people are talking about?

PvP? I guess. But for PvE stuff the class is far better now than it was in 1.5.

Crit Surge was a huge crutch for us in a lot of ways, and now we have to play smarter and better and I for one like that.

ssewallb14_ESO

The most I'm getting against non daedric WBs is 9.5k, with pet build and a template character with everything other than ward morphed.

Wisler89

Nybling wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking Sorcs are in a really good spot right now?

Sure there are some minor things they could fix, but I can do 2-3 packs in Spellscar just fine, I can do 12k dps, I have really solid survivability in a number of situations... I guess I just don't know what people are talking about?

PvP? I guess. But for PvE stuff the class is far better now than it was in 1.5.

Crit Surge was a huge crutch for us in a lot of ways, and now we have to play smarter and better and I for one like that.

Are you playing a magicka sorc in spellscar? If yes, I would really like to know how you play there and survive against 2 packs.

Nybling

Wisler89 wrote: »

Nybling wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking Sorcs are in a really good spot right now?

Sure there are some minor things they could fix, but I can do 2-3 packs in Spellscar just fine, I can do 12k dps, I have really solid survivability in a number of situations... I guess I just don't know what people are talking about?

PvP? I guess. But for PvE stuff the class is far better now than it was in 1.5.

Crit Surge was a huge crutch for us in a lot of ways, and now we have to play smarter and better and I for one like that.

Are you playing a magicka sorc in spellscar? If yes, I would really like to know how you play there and survive against 2 packs.

Yes, I am. My general rotation is Empowered Ward > Elemental Ring > Elemental Ring > Ward repeat. I can bring in a 3rd pack and burn it down super quick by dropping an ice comet in the center as well.

Will probably try and make a video of it sometime tonight/tomorrow.

Kilandros

Nybling wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking Sorcs are in a really good spot right now?

Sure there are some minor things they could fix, but I can do 2-3 packs in Spellscar just fine, I can do 12k dps, I have really solid survivability in a number of situations... I guess I just don't know what people are talking about?

PvP? I guess. But for PvE stuff the class is far better now than it was in 1.5.

Crit Surge was a huge crutch for us in a lot of ways, and now we have to play smarter and better and I for one like that.

The problem isn't getting a viable Sorc build--the problem is there's basically only 1 viable Sorc build. I consider this situation to be a de facto bad place for Sorcs.

Gandogal

Nybling wrote: »

Wisler89 wrote: »

Are you playing a magicka sorc in spellscar? If yes, I would really like to know how you play there and survive against 2 packs.

Yes, I am. My general rotation is Empowered Ward > Elemental Ring > Elemental Ring > Ward repeat. I can bring in a 3rd pack and burn it down super quick by dropping an ice comet in the center as well.

Will probably try and make a video of it sometime tonight/tomorrow.

Whats your single target build?
Im trying out some build atm but since im on europe i dont have anby good items and also lacking some morphs.

is pet build so far off? couse i dont see how you could combine it with AE for the usual packs in dungeons / arena etc. i dondt like rebuilding every time single dps is needed...

Nybling

Kilandros wrote: »

Nybling wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking Sorcs are in a really good spot right now?

Sure there are some minor things they could fix, but I can do 2-3 packs in Spellscar just fine, I can do 12k dps, I have really solid survivability in a number of situations... I guess I just don't know what people are talking about?

PvP? I guess. But for PvE stuff the class is far better now than it was in 1.5.

Crit Surge was a huge crutch for us in a lot of ways, and now we have to play smarter and better and I for one like that.

The problem isn't getting a viable Sorc build--the problem is there's basically only 1 viable Sorc build. I consider this situation to be a de facto bad place for Sorcs.

The PTS came out several days ago. Even after the game launched it still took time for the best builds to make themselves known. Yes, there are a lot of changes, but I think it's a little early to be saying that the class has major issues.

NotSo

So I finally got some PTS game time.
Made a 5 heavies and 1 medium and light armors, whatever set grants (5) +15% all combat regeneration, then (1)and(3) +w/e% magicka regen
I built it to utilize the undaunted Mettle passive for +6% all resources but I actually don't have it unlocked :P
1st bar sword/board (pierce)(lowslash)(darkdeal)(defensiveposture)(boundarmaments) ult(overload)
2nd bar 2-hand (criticalcharge)(thunderingpresence)(momemtum)(streak/immovable/rapidmaneuver)(boundarmaments) ult(stormatronach/negate)
major and minor armors are active at all times, momemtum will even effect 1h/shield so no downfall swapping crit surge for that.
magicka regen is over 900, stam regen is over 600.
about 10,000 magicka / 17,000 health / 13,000 stamina (going to have to check again)
none of my gear was enchanted (woops), also no food, no potions.

Duels are a lot of fun with this but it can't stand up to ****ing Surprise Attack spam that some of these guys gear for (which sucks because it's boring as ****)
Resources are very easy to manage.
Most dps types can be taken down after a time (even self healing dolts), had 1 fight where I just wasn't able to kill somebody's shieldwall.

My health stays pretty high throughout most fights, rounded dps will get me down to maybe 50% health, other tanks won't touch me even though I am wailing on their shields, and the 1-button-nuke wonders will take me out pretty quickly.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with where my 1-time theory-crafted build sits and I'm probably just going to stick with that once 1.6 goes live.

I purposefully left out any damage shields, I just can't stand how powerful some of you guys are making them out to be so I opted to not use them at all.


Craglorn mobs are not a problem, just swap critical charge for brawler (cleave) and have at it.

Nightreaver

NotSo wrote: »

I purposefully left out any damage shields, I just can't stand how powerful some of you guys are making them out to be so I opted to not use them at all.

You're wearing Heavy armor and using a Stamina build better suited for the Stamina based abilities you chose to use. It would be like me saying I purposely left out any Stamina based abilities because I can't stand how powerful you guys are making them out to be so I opted to not use them at all in my Magicka build.

Nybling

Nightreaver wrote: »

NotSo wrote: »

I purposefully left out any damage shields, I just can't stand how powerful some of you guys are making them out to be so I opted to not use them at all.

You're wearing Heavy armor and using a Stamina build better suited for the Stamina based abilities you chose to use. It would be like me saying I purposely left out any Stamina based abilities because I can't stand how powerful you guys are making them out to be so I opted to not use them at all in my Magicka build.

Yeah, that made me laugh.

Exstazik

I think if we maxed all "stars" all will wear heavy

Simzani

Problem with sorc class is that devs can't try to equilibrate it because of bolt escape and cristal shard. Whenever they could, they look at the list of the abilities of the sorc and see these spammy teleport cc and hard hitting/cc. Even if all other skills were removed, sorc would still be over the top. They need to remove them so they can work and make this class a real class.

Nybling

Simzani wrote: »

Problem with sorc class is that devs can't try to equilibrate it because of bolt escape and cristal shard. Whenever they could, they look at the list of the abilities of the sorc and see these spammy teleport cc and hard hitting/cc. Even if all other skills were removed, sorc would still be over the top. They need to remove them so they can work and make this class a real class.

No.

Just no.

Obviously someone didn't play this class pre-Crystal Shard, it was in really bad shape then when we had a skill called Repulse. Dark Magic was such a bad, bad tree too. Crystal Shard/Frags really helped add something to that tree. Now if you want to say remove the CC from Frags? I would be down with that.

Domander

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Something to share:
Curse is now blockable. Fine by me.

However it is completely broken with purge:
If the cursed enemy purges and you reapply curse it will run out 50% faster and nothing will happen.
Purge makes you virtually immune to daedric curse dmg apart from its other benefits.
This also works if you purge preemptively and have the 4s 50% duration on hostile effects on you.

To clarify...

When you say it's blockable, you mean if the target blocks it won't apply the curse? Just lost magicka? Or do you mean that the explosion damage is mitigated by holding block?

If it's the latter, it's bad. If it's the former, it's terrible.

The Purge thing must be a bug as they tried to fix the WoE malarky. Report it.

Jesus, this keeps getting from bad to worse for Sorcs

Please tell me this, does the Negate still actually dispel ground effects? And watch how you break it to me cause I might leap from the window.

Might as well just change curse to a dot, how do you block a curse

Pyatra

Domander wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Something to share:
Curse is now blockable. Fine by me.

However it is completely broken with purge:
If the cursed enemy purges and you reapply curse it will run out 50% faster and nothing will happen.
Purge makes you virtually immune to daedric curse dmg apart from its other benefits.
This also works if you purge preemptively and have the 4s 50% duration on hostile effects on you.

To clarify...

When you say it's blockable, you mean if the target blocks it won't apply the curse? Just lost magicka? Or do you mean that the explosion damage is mitigated by holding block?

If it's the latter, it's bad. If it's the former, it's terrible.

The Purge thing must be a bug as they tried to fix the WoE malarky. Report it.

Jesus, this keeps getting from bad to worse for Sorcs

Please tell me this, does the Negate still actually dispel ground effects? And watch how you break it to me cause I might leap from the window.

Might as well just change curse to a dot, how do you block a curse

Simple: Whenever they block they throw a 50lb bag of salt over their shoulders.

Grao

Snit wrote: »

How boring are PvE Sorcs going to be? Look at a likely build for optimized DPS:

1) Force Shock (primary DPS skill)
2) Crystal Shard (cast when it procs)
3) Inner Light (toggle)
4) Bound Aegis (toggle)
5) Matriarch Pet (toggle)

6) Structured Entropy (maintain this for the spellpower buff)
7) Mages' Wrath (in execute range, you switch to this bar and spam this)
8) That first toggle
9) That second toggle
10) That last toggle

That's two active skills per bar. You can make a good argument for adding another pet, too, reducing you to one active skill per bar.

Spellcasters rely too heavily on toggled buffs. This reduces build variety and complexity of play.

I do believe Sorcerers now have a problem with the number of toggled abilities we are supposed to maintain. We were given a solution to that problem though, an ultimate that unlocks a third bar for our use.

With Power Overload you can keep all your execution spells on that hidden bar and get an ever greater boost to the burn phase DPS by Weaving Overload Light attacks with Mage's Wrath. The only problem with that is, Overload has a base Ultimate cost... If Zenimax completely removed that, allowing us to trigger the Ultimate even with only 1 ult power, it would make things easier. Still, the current cost is very low and can be managed.

Wolfchild07

Familiar - replace with fire atronach.

Winged Twilight - replace with frost atronach.

Storm Atronach Ult - replace with dremora lord that morphs into melee or caster.

Storm Atronach somewhere else.

Needs to be a pure summoning skill line.

Septimus_Magna

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Critical surge, 1 second a joke. RNG healing on a 1second CD. Great, really well thought out!

Exactly, it should at least heal for the highest crit damage during that second to make it somewhat viable for stamina builds. If you want to get any significant heals from crit surge you're restricted to hard hits without any light attack weaving or dots, which is completely ridiculous for stamina builds with bleed and poison effects.

Septimus_Magna

Grao wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

I do believe Sorcerers now have a problem with the number of toggled abilities we are supposed to maintain. We were given a solution to that problem though, an ultimate that unlocks a third bar for our use.

With Power Overload you can keep all your execution spells on that hidden bar and get an ever greater boost to the burn phase DPS by Weaving Overload Light attacks with Mage's Wrath. The only problem with that is, Overload has a base Ultimate cost... If Zenimax completely removed that, allowing us to trigger the Ultimate even with only 1 ult power, it would make things easier. Still, the current cost is very low and can be managed.

I do agree we have a way to get some extra bar space but there is a problem with ultimate charge in 1.6 pvp. With all the shield stacking you hardly charge ulti because you only get ultimate ticks when you damage someone's health with a light or heavy attack. The only way to get ulit in pvp reliably is to heal during sieging (when allies have few shields up) or kill a lot of npc's. I do hope they fix this because it totally changes the dynamics of pvp.

Pyatra

Agreed, thankfully it should be an easy fix. Just have ultimate build if a shield is hit. I haven't tried this to know if it is broke, can anyone verify that has actually tried to test this?

Holycannoli

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Familiar - replace with fire atronach.

Winged Twilight - replace with frost atronach.

Storm Atronach Ult - replace with dremora lord that morphs into melee or caster.

Storm Atronach somewhere else.

Needs to be a pure summoning skill line.

I've thought similar since beta. Flame, frost and storm atronachs should be normal summons and the ultimate should be a dremora lord or golden saint. Flame atronach was one of my first summons in Skyrim and it's weird it's not even an option in ESO.

I'm not sure about replacing familiars and twilights with them though. In beta I wanted them added to the skill tree, but of course realized soon after that every tree had the same number of skills so it was impossible.

We also have no bound weapons, another TES summoning staple.

OtarTheMad

Holycannoli wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Familiar - replace with fire atronach.

Winged Twilight - replace with frost atronach.

Storm Atronach Ult - replace with dremora lord that morphs into melee or caster.

Storm Atronach somewhere else.

Needs to be a pure summoning skill line.

I've thought similar since beta. Flame, frost and storm atronachs should be normal summons and the ultimate should be a dremora lord or golden saint. Flame atronach was one of my first summons in Skyrim and it's weird it's not even an option in ESO.

I'm not sure about replacing familiars and twilights with them though. In beta I wanted them added to the skill tree, but of course realized soon after that every tree had the same number of skills so it was impossible.

We also have no bound weapons, another TES summoning staple.

I do believe a lot of this is coming in Spellcrafting, whenever that gets released.

Arki

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Familiar - replace with fire atronach.

Winged Twilight - replace with frost atronach.

Storm Atronach Ult - replace with dremora lord that morphs into melee or caster.

Storm Atronach somewhere else.

Needs to be a pure summoning skill line.

I've thought similar since beta. Flame, frost and storm atronachs should be normal summons and the ultimate should be a dremora lord or golden saint. Flame atronach was one of my first summons in Skyrim and it's weird it's not even an option in ESO.

I'm not sure about replacing familiars and twilights with them though. In beta I wanted them added to the skill tree, but of course realized soon after that every tree had the same number of skills so it was impossible.

We also have no bound weapons, another TES summoning staple.

I do believe a lot of this is coming in Spellcrafting, whenever that gets released.

They showed the fire atronach in a short demo i believe. But might take a while before it gets here. Thiefs guild and dark brotherhood is prob next major update.

OtarTheMad

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Familiar - replace with fire atronach.

Winged Twilight - replace with frost atronach.

Storm Atronach Ult - replace with dremora lord that morphs into melee or caster.

Storm Atronach somewhere else.

Needs to be a pure summoning skill line.

I've thought similar since beta. Flame, frost and storm atronachs should be normal summons and the ultimate should be a dremora lord or golden saint. Flame atronach was one of my first summons in Skyrim and it's weird it's not even an option in ESO.

I'm not sure about replacing familiars and twilights with them though. In beta I wanted them added to the skill tree, but of course realized soon after that every tree had the same number of skills so it was impossible.

We also have no bound weapons, another TES summoning staple.

I do believe a lot of this is coming in Spellcrafting, whenever that gets released.

They showed the fire atronach in a short demo i believe. But might take a while before it gets here. Thiefs guild and dark brotherhood is prob next major update.

I hope Thieves Guild and The Dark Brotherhood are soon, I mean they already gave us the passives for what might be the TG skill line with the Legermain. Hard to imagine the TG skill line passives not being exactly those.

EDIT- As a note on Sorc abilities I would not be completely against replacing Rune Prison with a skill we, apparently, once had called Repulse. I've only heard things about it but it seems like a nice idea... considering we have Encase and Daedric Minefield for CC (even Volcanic Rune in Mages Guild) why not add an offensive ability?

Holycannoli

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I do believe a lot of this is coming in Spellcrafting, whenever that gets released.

I was going to add we will probably see these in spellcrafting but I'm not confident we will have spellcrafting any time soon, probably not even this year.

Gorthax

here is repulse info: http://elderscrollsonline.info/repulse

with that being said, I am not happy with how sorcs turned out in 1.6, considering the amounts of buffs to DKs (seriously?), but without having access to other gear sets to try new things on the PTS (sorry but inventory is limited and I dont make mules) I cant honestly say to much.

Sure pets are better than they were. Still not 100% viable. I would like to see them PRE "we need to tone them down a little" and I would LOVE to see more aggressive spells. IF they would rethink their stance on our only good class skill (bolt escape and the morphs) and would stop being so harsh on that then I think it would make us better.

Think about it. All that extra magicka to actually do stuff instead of wasting it all because we are penalized for spamming one move......but hey the other classes can spam their moves. Also not to mention the distance we "teleport" is so lack luster that sword and shield + 2H weapons (not staves) can charge to us. Never used to be that way, so stop penalizing us for using our class skill PLEASE!

That or seriously put other classes at a disadvantage for spamming their good class skills. Balance right?

EDIT: Or since pets are such a joke still, make them take only one skill slot. Sorcs need to have an advantage/a reason for people to want to play them. I just dont get that vibe from sorcs anymore. Why would someone honestly choose a sorc over any of the other three classes as a "template" for creating their character? I literally have no way of answering this question because I cant find one OTHER than bolt escape.

EDIT2: I should also mention that this is all from a pvp stand point as pve to me is so boring I cant bring myself to do any of it anymore.

OtarTheMad

Gorthax wrote: »

here is repulse info: http://elderscrollsonline.info/repulse

Thanks, so ZOS... why not replace Rune Prison with this skill?? We need offense. I am not sure how other Sorcs feel about it but I mean Rune Prison is an okay skill... its new morph is kind of okay (still a long cast time). So why not give Sorcs some more punch?

AssaultLemming

I played a pet build on the pts for a few hours last night, magicka build, twilight and willows for gear, soul shine jewelry, destro resto staffs. Heals bar: empowered ward, combat prayer, healing springs (but the longer duration morph) Both pets. Dps bar.crushing shock, daedric prey, dark bargain or whatever it's called, magicka morph.

Basically I was soloing craglorn to see how this build compared, I find craglorn a good place to test a build for trash clearing and also for the occasional named mob.

The first thing that is clear is pets still need to do more dps. They take up 4 spell slots, and 2 of my other spells are really only being used for pets benefit. They simply don't do enough dps to be worth the spots, even watching them take down a single jackal is ridiculously slow.

The second thing is they still need more hps because you spend your whole time healing them or buffing them, if you stop for a second they die, and they need a health bar visible at all time preferably on the UI, not floating above their heads. They should show up like party members. You should be able to see the buffs that they have and their hps. This is basic pet management stuff.

Third: daedric prey. This spell needs to designate the target for pets to attack, otherwise it is totally useless. When you cast it pets should attack that target.

That's it really, more dps, more hps, easier targeting with daedric prey and they might be worth using.

Pyatra

[

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I played a pet build on the pts for a few hours last night, magicka build, twilight and willows for gear, soul shine jewelry, destro resto staffs. Heals bar: empowered ward, combat prayer, healing springs (but the longer duration morph) Both pets. Dps bar.crushing shock, daedric prey, dark bargain or whatever it's called, magicka morph.

Basically I was soloing craglorn to see how this build compared, I find craglorn a good place to test a build for trash clearing and also for the occasional named mob.

The first thing that is clear is pets still need to do more dps. They take up 4 spell slots, and 2 of my other spells are really only being used for pets benefit. They simply don't do enough dps to be worth the spots, even watching them take down a single jackal is ridiculously slow.

The second thing is they still need more hps because you spend your whole time healing them or buffing them, if you stop for a second they die, and they need a health bar visible at all time preferably on the UI, not floating above their heads. They should show up like party members. You should be able to see the buffs that they have and their hps. This is basic pet management stuff.

Third: daedric prey. This spell needs to designate the target for pets to attack, otherwise it is totally useless. When you cast it pets should attack that target.

That's it really, more dps, more hps, easier targeting with daedric prey and they might be worth using.

The Daedric Prey is a good idea but I've been thinking about this skill.... I have to round some people up and test something on the PTS tonight.