Champion System Clarification

WraithAzraiel

Guppet wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

Thank you for the clear explanation, Gina. I appreciate that you guys are being thoughtful about the changes and considering your whole player base and not just the elite ones.

You mention that veteran ranks aren't going away yet but it sounds like this is still planned for some future update after the details are determined. I hope that some kind of compromise can be worked out to reward people who have already reached max level without separating the player base too drasticly.

(DISCLAIMER: The below rant is meant to be humorous, take it as such)


This line of thought is what's wrong with the world today. That whole, Dr. Spock, don't hit your children, reason with tantrum-throwing 2 year olds and make everyone feel speeeeecial and appreciated and warm and cozy and setting them up for failure in the cold harshness of the real world where thin skin equals death and failure.

Form you own "comedy" rant (you clearly mean it, anyone that has ever read any of you posts knows that)-

reason with tantrum-throwing 2 year olds and make everyone feel speeeeecial and appreciated.

The behaviour of certain individuals over this past weekend has very much been that of tantrum-throwing 2 year olds.

There are many of us that will loose out with this, (massively in my case) and we don't throw around threats of quitting. Anyone not understanding that this is being done for the good of the game and its long term viability, needs to take a break for a bit and calm down.

Expressing a thought or belief with humor doesn't detract from the self truth of that expressed thought or belief. I only added the disclaimer to keep from offending people unintentionally. If I'm going to offend someone, I'd like it to be intentional.

Do I believe everything I put a disclaimer above and below? Absolutely. Can I do anything about it? Absolutely not. So I'm going to get a kick out of it, and hopefully spread some humor doing it.

I'm not having a tantrum, I'm expressing a belief and opinion passionately. This announcement isn't in any way, shape or form, going to affect how often I play.

I've stated before I'm in for the long run. My comment was neither a threat to quit nor an irrational tantrum. Sooooo what was the point of you quoting my comment?

If it was to be used as an example of tantrum-throwing, I can think of better examples. Just saying.

WraithAzraiel

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

You fail to understand the point behind preemptive screaming. If you make enough of a stink about it, they'll think twice about allowing the failure of compensation to come to pass.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.....

Emencie

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

You fail to understand the point behind preemptive screaming. If you make enough of a stink about it, they'll think twice about allowing the failure of compensation to come to pass.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.....

Nothing wrong with cautioning ZOS to keep this in mind. But people are "quitting" over this right now!

It's like if someone promises you a Christmas party. Then you rage in October because you haven't gotten your Christmas party yet.

I'm reading this and just thinking... uhhh... yea we didn't get more points we still have our vet levels.

Fetaro

I don't like this. VR14 characters played way more than VR1 characters, and they are getting exactly the same amount of points. And you told us to continue to get XP after getting VR14 because you said it would be tracked and we would get the right amount of points.... I am really disappointed, I feel like I wasted my time.

DDuke

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

You fail to understand the point behind preemptive screaming. If you make enough of a stink about it, they'll think twice about allowing the failure of compensation to come to pass.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.....

Nothing wrong with cautioning ZOS to keep this in mind. But people are "quitting" over this right now!

It's like if your someone promises you a Christmas party. Then you rage in October because you haven't gotten your Christmas party yet.

I'm reading this and just thinking... uhhh... yea we didn't get more points we still have our vet levels.

To be honest, I think it's more like someone promising you the Christmas party, and you not getting that Christmas party, ever.

So that's kind of a bad analogy, just saying

Bouvin

Gyudan wrote: »

It is funny to see that the few dedicated players that you have left are the ones that you are targeting with this decision. Those are the ones that you ask for feedback in Sanctum Ophidia or DSA Veteran, that stream dynamic PVP fights, that test content on the PTS, that challenge your own ability to create content by pushing the ceiling always further and provide you with elaborate inputs on the systems that you designed. Those are your most dedicated fans and you are dismissing their input as if it didn't matter.

I think that a few months/years from now, you will remember today as the day the train started going off the rails. Or maybe not, I'm just a silly player after all.

Thank you.

Tyr

xMovingTarget wrote: »

So what about "we track xp". This will make many many ppl mad.

A 1 to 1 conversion of XP to Champion XP was too dramatic so they decided to reverse all of their previous stamtents on the matter and not do any conversion at all.

Tyr

Double post.

manny254

Tyr wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

So what about "we track xp". This will make many many ppl mad.

A 1 to 1 conversion of XP to Champion XP was too dramatic so they decided to reverse all of their previous stamtents on the matter and not do any conversion at all.

Sound legit.

Hey person you currency doesn't have the same value as mine!!
So I won't even let you exchange it at a fair rate.

Rune_Relic

lordrichter wrote: »

I am somewhat surprised that no one noticed that Gina posted that whole long thing and never once did it actually answer the question that everyone was asking.

Maybe someone else noticed it and just missed it.

When I go on about how they cannot communicate, and laugh when they say things like, "That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO," this is what I mean. How could they possibly write all that without even answering the question?

LMAO... I did actaully notice that she never answered the concerns too. Alas I couldnt see the keyboard to respond as my palm was stuck to my face

Gyudan

Tyr wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

So what about "we track xp". This will make many many ppl mad.

A 1 to 1 conversion of XP to Champion XP was too dramatic so they decided to reverse all of their previous stamtents on the matter and not do any conversion at all.

It makes sense because taking a percentage of that XP would have been too complicated.
I mean ... multiplications and stuff? That's difficult to code guys.


I would very much like to know why ZOS decided that the current post-vet XP was so unbalanced that granting 0% to everyone was the fair and valid option.

Rune_Relic

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

You fail to understand the point behind preemptive screaming. If you make enough of a stink about it, they'll think twice about allowing the failure of compensation to come to pass.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.....

Ah! I get it now. Miles away I am afraid lol

Tyr

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

They have stated that a 1 to 1 conversion of Xp to Champion XP was too drastic.
They will have no way of compensating anyone accurately since when 1.6 goes live you'll be gaining champion points making the 2 system forever irreconcilable.

They have effectively wiped all experience beyond the equivalent of ~120 hours of veteran play.

The ultimate irony in wiping all veteran alt experience is the only way for players to now earn champion points other than grinding dailies is to roll as many alts as possible to vr 14.

Some(albeit small) number of players who have 8 vr14 characters will have to either grind dailies on all 14 characters or delete characters and reroll in order to keep up with brand new veteran ranked players.

Why the hell they couldn't have done a 10 to 1 or some high end conversion and added that to the 30 CP everyone was getting is beyond me.

Of course if in 1.7(champion phase 4) they do add them back I will be pleasantly surprised.

As it stands now it is an almost complete wipe of Xp for the most active players.

Guppet

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

Thank you for the clear explanation, Gina. I appreciate that you guys are being thoughtful about the changes and considering your whole player base and not just the elite ones.

You mention that veteran ranks aren't going away yet but it sounds like this is still planned for some future update after the details are determined. I hope that some kind of compromise can be worked out to reward people who have already reached max level without separating the player base too drasticly.

(DISCLAIMER: The below rant is meant to be humorous, take it as such)


This line of thought is what's wrong with the world today. That whole, Dr. Spock, don't hit your children, reason with tantrum-throwing 2 year olds and make everyone feel speeeeecial and appreciated and warm and cozy and setting them up for failure in the cold harshness of the real world where thin skin equals death and failure.

Form you own "comedy" rant (you clearly mean it, anyone that has ever read any of you posts knows that)-

reason with tantrum-throwing 2 year olds and make everyone feel speeeeecial and appreciated.

The behaviour of certain individuals over this past weekend has very much been that of tantrum-throwing 2 year olds.

There are many of us that will loose out with this, (massively in my case) and we don't throw around threats of quitting. Anyone not understanding that this is being done for the good of the game and its long term viability, needs to take a break for a bit and calm down.

Expressing a thought or belief with humor doesn't detract from the self truth of that expressed thought or belief. I only added the disclaimer to keep from offending people unintentionally. If I'm going to offend someone, I'd like it to be intentional.

Do I believe everything I put a disclaimer above and below? Absolutely. Can I do anything about it? Absolutely not. So I'm going to get a kick out of it, and hopefully spread some humor doing it.

I'm not having a tantrum, I'm expressing a belief and opinion passionately. This announcement isn't in any way, shape or form, going to affect how often I play.

I've stated before I'm in for the long run. My comment was neither a threat to quit nor an irrational tantrum. Sooooo what was the point of you quoting my comment?

If it was to be used as an example of tantrum-throwing, I can think of better examples. Just saying.

To be fair, it was not really you that was tantruming this weekend. I just responded to your post as you were basically saying that people should not negotiate with tantruming 2 year olds (I agree with that, I have a 5 year old, so know where that path leads).

xaraan

Didn't answer the question everyone is wondering: will higher level vets get more points, even later? When phase 4 comes, will vet levels earn some sort of point conversion for what they have already done?

Let me be specific:

I have 5 v14s and a v5, and 2 guys in twenties. I level with questing. So I don't have more significant content to do on 5 of those characters and half of the other one. This is unfair to someone in my position vs a guy with one v1 and all the content ahead of him on all 8 slots. Now, I don't love pvp (sorry) and don't pay to log in and grind - I like to quest and do dungeons - dungeons (and most dailies) are a limited thing as they aren't solo and aren't as xp rewarding as doing main quests really. (Sure, some players that level slow will still do so, but some players might just only be hitting v1 because they are new and will level just as fast as me going forward.)

So it comes off to me as if I'm being punished for having been all into your game for months in lieu of you guys luring a few new players that will be able to pass me up more easily playing the same way I'd like to be playing. So that gap you don't want me to have -- you are fine with allowing them to earn it in the months after 1.6 and leave me sitting behind (much like the undaunted passives where my main is still sitting at 7 and watched others that do dungeons less often max it out weeks ago). Except the champion system is a much more important system than just the undaunted passives - so a bit bigger deal I think.

I mean, most of our guild didn't even play since friday because most of them thought this news was pretty crappy. So, don't think that this is one person making a stink, I'm simply one of the people willing to be called a "whiner" by the rest of the forum. If you are truly giving everyone 30 points, whether they are v1, v14, v14+, or have 5 v14s, it's a bad decision and an unfair one and frankly you guys come off as dishonest for not telling us much sooner that things were different when you told us previously that you were tracking xp past v14 and it would mean something.

Edit: Also - if you reduced the overall points to 25% of what it was, why not do the same to the points you planned to allocate when you said you were tracking our xp past v14? just reduce them by 25%. I mean, you guys are selling this system to everyone talking about 'diminishing returns" and how it will keep players from getting too far ahead - so if that system is in place, why double down on it and screw over players that actually should be a bit ahead?

manny254

I will re-post a example I used in another thread to explain why this choice punishes veteran players in every way.


Lets just take @ xarran for example. I play with him regularly, and we where leveling characters together before this past eso live. He currently has 5 v14 characters, 1 v5, and 2 slots with non vet characters(all 8 characters slots).

If this didn't happen we would have finished leveling our current characters before the end of the month. He would have probably get another v14 character by the end of January based on his play speed.

So the champion system would probably release late Jan or early Feb and he would have one character who has not completed cadwells silver and gold.

So he and a v1 player would have the same amount of quest to do, but after a month and both of them where v14 he would have no more characters. The former v1 would still have 7 characters to level. DON'T PUNISH US FOR PLAYING!!

The only way the system described can have a single bit of fairness is to allow existing players the option to reset non repeatable content. I see a quest marker above some npc, and I don't see the story that I will click through. I see xp.

Guppet

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

You fail to understand the point behind preemptive screaming. If you make enough of a stink about it, they'll think twice about allowing the failure of compensation to come to pass.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.....

Now that is encouraging people to throw tantrums!

Rune_Relic

Tyr wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

They have stated that a 1 to 1 conversion of Xp to Champion XP was too drastic.
They will have no way of compensating anyone accurately since when 1.6 goes live you'll be gaining champion points making the 2 system forever irreconcilable.

They have effectively wiped all experience beyond the equivalent of ~120 hours of veteran play.

The ultimate irony in wiping all veteran alt experience is the only way for players to now earn champion points other than grinding dailies is to roll as many alts as possible to vr 14.

Some(albeit small) number of players who have 8 vr14 characters will have to either grind dailies on all 14 characters or delete characters and reroll in order to keep up with brand new veteran ranked players.

Why the hell they couldn't have done a 10 to 1 or some high end conversion and added that to the 30 CP everyone was getting is beyond me.

Of course if in 1.7(champion phase 4) they do add them back I will be pleasantly surprised.

As it stands now it is an almost complete wipe of Xp for the most active players.

But they said they cannot do a full conversion.
There was simply too much to do.
Thats the whole point behind phasing the system
Thats why they said they want to make sure CS + Vet run in parallel with no hiccups for now.
Vet system has not been removed.
Vis-a-vis....no compensation.

The only other thing I have heard them say is WHEN conversion actually does take place. It will be capped at some MAX Champion points.

They havent even finalised exactly how they will get rid of the Vet system yet.
That might demote all to Level 50 and give you CS points as compensation.
Who knows.

Ysne58

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ I would like to see more clarity in your response to our concerns.

1. Is 30 points all that any player is going to get? or will there be some kind of additional compensation for those who have gotten 1 or more to Vr14. (I am not one of those players by the way).
2. Why have you not gone back and compensated those who completed all the undaunted content? (Again, I am not one of those players)

I feel that you are not treating these other people fairly and it does concern me that I am wasting time leveling up the one vet character I have who is currently Vr5.

I realize you are looking at long term, but being fair about this (or not in these two examples) also has long term consequences. At this point I'm not sure you (the company) get that this is going to create huge problems for you down the road, if it isn't already.

Even I am starting to lose faith in you.

manny254

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

They have stated that a 1 to 1 conversion of Xp to Champion XP was too drastic.
They will have no way of compensating anyone accurately since when 1.6 goes live you'll be gaining champion points making the 2 system forever irreconcilable.

They have effectively wiped all experience beyond the equivalent of ~120 hours of veteran play.

The ultimate irony in wiping all veteran alt experience is the only way for players to now earn champion points other than grinding dailies is to roll as many alts as possible to vr 14.

Some(albeit small) number of players who have 8 vr14 characters will have to either grind dailies on all 14 characters or delete characters and reroll in order to keep up with brand new veteran ranked players.

Why the hell they couldn't have done a 10 to 1 or some high end conversion and added that to the 30 CP everyone was getting is beyond me.

Of course if in 1.7(champion phase 4) they do add them back I will be pleasantly surprised.

As it stands now it is an almost complete wipe of Xp for the most active players.

But they said they cannot do a full conversion.
There was simply too much to do.
Thats the whole point behind phasing the system
Thats why they said they want to make sure CS + Vet run in parallel with no hiccups for now.
Vet system has not been removed.
Vis-a-vis....no compensation.

The only other thing I have heard them say is WHEN conversion actually does take place. It will be capped at some MAX Champion points.

They havent even finalised exactly how they will get rid of the Vet system yet.
That might demote all to Level 50 and give you CS points as compensation.
Who knows.

So assuming that they will compensate in phase 4

Players who level between phases 3 an 4 will be double credited.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

There is a way they can save this disaster and keep things balanced.

We know from the achievement window that all completed quests, dolmens and world bosses etc is tracked.

So simply take all the non repeatable veteran content and give the quest and completion and discovery xp done on all chars on an account and convert them to champ points. And exclude dailies from this.

But don't give the rest of the xp that comes from kill xp since that is repeatable xp.

That way you give a v14 and a v1 the same opportunities to gain champion points over time.

Since you already have a database with all this data then its just a matter of creating a spreadsheet and run all accounts through it during January while the patch is on the pts.

xaraan

One more thought: If we are being treated like our past progression means nothing and we eventually will all be on the same level? Then why bother progressing any further? If there is some small return, how do I know that a year from now ZoS won't "rebalance" the game and take away progress one again in order to attract a handful of new players?

The_Saint

We dont get compensated at the undaunted line when finished all achievements before it comes. ZOS said before it will be tracked: Result?

ZOS said: play on we tracking every xp you earned for your champion points: Result?

Remove VET system= you can answer yourself

Tavore1138

The thing is we trusted what we were told and have now found out they did not tell us the truth - if you cannot keep a promise it is generally better not to make a promise, at least that is how I was raised.

It is sad both that this is how ZOS have behaved and sad that so many people here go through life feeling it is acceptable to behave this way and supporting it, not a great commentary on our society if a person's word cannot be trusted to the extent that you will get trolled for expecting it.

If ZOS had never given this promise then I don't think people would be so annoyed. After all the system itself received mostly positive feedback until ZOS went back on their statements, statements noone forced them to make.

It is also a shame that the people who have played the most appear to be losing out again, especially those who primarily quest for thier advancement. It is understandable that ZOS want to keep balance but it is incomprehensible to effectively penalise more active players both by removing ways to get points and by rewarding those who play less by giving them points faster than those who spend more time playing.

People who play more should have more to show for it or the incentive to play and compete is removed.

Dazin93

The proposed CS point allocation is ridiculous and quite frankly is stringing players along with nothing but empty promises. Quite a few players maximized their characters a long time ago and were hanging on for 1.6 in the belief that their play time and grind of repeatable quests post VR14 would actually count for something; that that they would have a real opportunity to progress their character when 1.6 went live.

Now after being patient for months, we are told we will have the same number of CS points as any VR1 (which I can grind to in several days).

ZoS, do you really think we are going to hang around for another 3-4 months to see if VR levels actually go away, or if we actually are compensated for the time we put into them? What is to say there isn't another "change in development direction".

Ironically, even if points are awarded months down the road, it will not be impactful by that point with a diminishing returns system.

Time and time again ZoS, you make major changes to ESO without any advance warning, and continually fail to heed the advice of the player base or premier guilds. Removal of the Forward Camps is just one of many examples how you completely changed the play style of pvp, yet didn't implement any other travel methods or ideas that you were so amply provided at the guild summit. Time and time again, you are provided feedback on bugs and exploits yet fail to correct them in a timely manner, if at all.

I can't continue to stay vested in ESO or my character with this type of mismanagement. I have cancelled my subscription and it's going to take nothing less than a miracle for me to resubscribe.

Vegaroth

Great reward for our loyalty...... good job ZOS

Huggernaut

This champ system seems like a giant clusterfk of epic proportions.

I didn't have any issues with it when I was getting credit for all the questing (cadwell gold, etc) I was doing, but now, no credit?

What the hell was the point in even leveling then?

They screw us out of xp, simply unsub.

It's the only thing companies understand now a days, their bottom line being screwed with the same way they screw with us in game.

Sublime

This is how I read the post:

Since veteran ranks are still in place, players who are at V14 still have their power, which they gained throught progression, so giving them additional CSP with 1.6 would give the additional ressources without giving anything (the VR bonuses) up. Once they remove the veteran ranks and all veteran characters become equally strong, the high level characters will be rewarded for their effort.

manny254

Sublime wrote: »

This is how I read the post:

Since veteran ranks are still in place, players who are at V14 still have their power, which they gained throught progression, so giving them additional CSP with 1.6 would give the additional ressources without giving anything (the VR bonuses) up. Once they remove the veteran ranks and all veteran characters become equally strong, the high level characters will be rewarded for their effort.

Except as I said before this method would double credit anyone who leveled between phases 3 and 4. To them its absurd to credit us once. So I doubt they would stand for double crediting.

Sacadon

ZOS needs to clarify whether or not the "current' plans are to make good on the XP earned will count statement... otherwise /played sure seems quite freudian now.